Author Topic: Lean angle alarms keep going off  (Read 11203 times)

Offline basmntdweller

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Lean angle alarms keep going off
« on: May 15, 2012, 11:17:28 AM »
I am sure VirginiaJim will find a better place for this post but I didn't really see a suitable place for it.

I am not the best rider by a long shot. I have always been very leery of entering corners with much speed but I really want to get more aggressive. Last Friday I went riding with a couple friends on some mild twisties. The guy in the lead was riding his HD Ultra Classic that has been lowered a little bit. He was riding like he had a ton of clearance for leaning even though I couldn't believe he wasn't dragging parts. I was following him fairly close and matching his speed through the corners. Many of them were very uncomfortable for me. The speeds were uncomfortable because while I know my C-14 is much more capable than his Harley, the warning bells and sirens were going off in my head on many corner entries and when lean angles were getting steeper than I was comfortable with.
I know my Connie is more than capable and I know I can ride through this stuff but how do I quiet these warnings going off in my head? I need to mention that we were not going all that fast. We followed a car for a while and the car wasn't having any problems with the pace and it wasn't holding us up. My other vehicle is a 4WD Chevy truck and I have rode my bike through corners at my warning level speeds and come back through in my truck at same speed and it is no big deal. How do I get past this irrational fear??? I want to do a few track days this year to try to help this but not sure that is really the answer. I remember this fear was prevalent even as a kid on bicycles so it is pretty deep seated.
FWIW, I really enjoyed the ride the other day even though I was in a controlled panic at times.

Any ideas? Matt
'09 C14
'98 DR-350
'11 Suzuki C50T wife's ride since she hates my Connie
'03 Honda CBR600RR track bike

Offline stevewfl

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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2012, 11:29:23 AM »
Don't out-ride your comfortable  limits no matter what model bike you are on. That goes for street or track too.
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Offline Caffeinated

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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2012, 11:34:15 AM »
Running stock tires? If so, dump'em. I had no confidence in them, and rode like it as a result.

Advance Rider Course also helps let you know what your doing wrong and gives you the confidence to do it right.
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Offline RBX QB

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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2012, 11:35:25 AM »
... How do I get past this irrational fear??? ...

That fear isn't irrational at all, it is fear of what COULD happen that keeps you safe.

What will change in time, and with practice, is that you fear threshold will be raised. Track days are a good place, as would be an advanced rider course. Seat time in a controlled environment where someone with more experience and knowledge can help guide you through your current threshold. This will lead to you gaining confidence in YOURSELF... and this is what will begin to quell you fears at the maneuvers you were talking about.
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Offline Jeremy Mitchell

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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2012, 11:44:22 AM »
Ride how you are comfortable riding, riding safely is much more important than keeping up with a buddy.
Keeping the economy going, one tank of fuel and two tires at a time.

Offline Dalroo

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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2012, 11:46:15 AM »
There is no better way to learn than practice, but short of that, when coming over from the dark side to the C14, I found a great deal of benefit from reading Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough, along with Total Control by Lee Parks. Both are available on Amazon. These are good resources with many practical lessons to be learned. After reading them, I find myself practicing specific techniques from them in my everyday riding.

On that note, I personally have nearly 100,000 miles under my belt on HDs (and loved every mile by the way) and can attest that the C14 can do things, with margin to spare, that I would have never attempted on my Harleys. Even on what is HDs best handling configuration, the Dyna line, there was simply no way to ride even marginally as agressive as possible on the Concours. For me, the change came when I rode with others on sport touring bikes, me on an Ultra Classic, on a long distance ride and I simply could not stay within the same area code. I'm not the best rider in the world, I know, but do have nearly 30 years of riding experience, many thousands of miles of riding, and years of experience competing on dirt, and low speed drills, and find the C14 to be up to the task. Yes, there are sport bikes that may handle better and be faster, but from a versatility standpoint, I just can see any bike that will do as much.

Bottom line - learn as much as you can in theory, and in practice, but don't push past your comfort level, especially on the street or open road. And when riding within your comfort zone, and this comes straight from David Hough, when you get into a bad situation, you have a margin left to give. Lee Parks uses the analogy of have $10 worth of capability. If you are expending $9.50 around a corner and there is a bump (or gravel, or wildlife, or a vehicle, or, or) in your path, having $.050 left in your wallet is not enough. Why risk it?

Offline basmntdweller

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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2012, 12:17:35 PM »
I took Abate's advanced class a couple years ago and again last August, shortly after getting my Connie.
I call the fear irrational because I know both me and the bike are capable of much more. Keepin up with my buddy the other day was very helpful and fun even though I was on edge a lot because him going through the corners on a less capable bike gave me the confidence I needed to follow him through.
My stock tires are getting close so I will have a set of PR3's in the next few weeks. Although I never felt the tires were holding me back in the least.
I have had this issue on the dirt bikes too. Went down a few times because of it but I have learned the lesson now that the only way out of a bad or uncomfortable situation is to buck up and ride through it.
If I am not pushing my limits a bit, I'll never get better.

Thanks, Matt
'09 C14
'98 DR-350
'11 Suzuki C50T wife's ride since she hates my Connie
'03 Honda CBR600RR track bike

Offline basmntdweller

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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2012, 12:28:44 PM »
In addition to my "irrational" fear situation, I have made the turn into my addition literally hundreds of times, likely at nearly the same speed. I still get that warning buzzer going off as I turn in. Before I am even 1/3 of the way through the turn, I know I could have gone way faster.
If most of you guys were to follow me, you'd all be wondering why is this guy going so slow!
Straight line speed on the bike and cornering in cars doesn't faze me in the least. I raced dirt late models through the '90's so high speed corners wasn't a problem there.

Matt
'09 C14
'98 DR-350
'11 Suzuki C50T wife's ride since she hates my Connie
'03 Honda CBR600RR track bike

Taff

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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2012, 01:37:38 PM »
I am sure VirginiaJim will find a better place for this post but I didn't really see a suitable place for it.

I am not the best rider by a long shot. I have always been very leery of entering corners with much speed but I really want to get more aggressive. Last Friday I went riding with a couple friends on some mild twisties. The guy in the lead was riding his HD Ultra Classic that has been lowered a little bit. He was riding like he had a ton of clearance for leaning even though I couldn't believe he wasn't dragging parts. I was following him fairly close and matching his speed through the corners. Many of them were very uncomfortable for me. The speeds were uncomfortable because while I know my C-14 is much more capable than his Harley, the warning bells and sirens were going off in my head on many corner entries and when lean angles were getting steeper than I was comfortable with.
I know my Connie is more than capable and I know I can ride through this stuff but how do I quiet these warnings going off in my head? I need to mention that we were not going all that fast. We followed a car for a while and the car wasn't having any problems with the pace and it wasn't holding us up. My other vehicle is a 4WD Chevy truck and I have rode my bike through corners at my warning level speeds and come back through in my truck at same speed and it is no big deal. How do I get past this irrational fear??? I want to do a few track days this year to try to help this but not sure that is really the answer. I remember this fear was prevalent even as a kid on bicycles so it is pretty deep seated.
FWIW, I really enjoyed the ride the other day even though I was in a controlled panic at times.

Any ideas? Matt

Matt,
Take some time to book a track day and start out in the slow group to gain confidence. Your peg feeler will let you know when lean angles are getting low. Get the suspension set up for your riding style and change to better tires.
Ride your ride and remember, smooth is fast. ;D
Jon.

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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2012, 01:55:48 PM »
I think you will gain more confidence as time on the bike adds up, it took me a while to feel safe cornering on the Concours, my concern was "is the rear tire going to stick or wash out". All my riding in the past was on cruisers and compared to them the Concours is easier to ride for me.

My son drives a dirt Super Late Model in the Comp Cams Series here in the midsouth, if you can wheel a Late Model I know you have skills, just give it some time.

Offline ugocon

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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2012, 02:51:54 PM »
The Connie is not a bike for rookies and needs an adequate time to get absorbed and to become one thing with the pilot.
It's way too heavy and even if the tires are wide, the initial feeling is...to slip away!
Do not compare the Connie with the Ultra, because the center of gravity of the latter is lower and helps a lot when curving.
My suggestion is to drive it relaxed, no hurry to stay behind another bike.
You'll naturally feel more comfortable day after day.
A riding course can help, but, IMO, it's not mandatory...
Regarding the stock tires, it's true: they are not of the same class of the bike!
Gonna change them asap with something with more grip! ;)

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Offline basmntdweller

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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2012, 02:59:47 PM »


My son drives a dirt Super Late Model in the Comp Cams Series here in the midsouth, if you can wheel a Late Model I know you have skills, just give it some time.

My home track was Brownstown IN but ran Eldora every chance I got. I miss racing so much but I am too old and too broke to play that game anymore.

Quote
Take some time to book a track day and start out in the slow group to gain confidence. Your peg feeler will let you know when lean angles are getting low. Get the suspension set up for your riding style and change to better tires.
Ride your ride and remember, smooth is fast. ;D

I could extend my peg feelers 6" and they'd still be in no danger of getting scratched up!
I really want to do a track day or several for that matter but I just don't want to put my Connie at risk. I had been looking for a cheaper used 600 strictly for a track bike but nothing good has come up in my price range. I probably should have kept my V-Strom and used it but I thought I could sell it and and get something for less than half what I sold it for.

As I mentioned above, tire grip isn't a concern. I am nowhere near the limits of even the stock tires. I still have about an inch of chicken strip showing on the rear. Too bad most of you are scattered so far away. It would be great to ride with someone who could teach and critique before I headed to a track day.
I think I'll run down to the library and see if I can't pick up either of the books Dalroo mentioned.

Matt
 



'09 C14
'98 DR-350
'11 Suzuki C50T wife's ride since she hates my Connie
'03 Honda CBR600RR track bike

Offline wildnphx

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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2012, 03:05:57 PM »
Ditto what everyone else is saying... Ride at the pace you are comfortable with and take a MSF riders course.  I took two of them last year after I bought the bike and it help allot in building confidence.  Also highly highly recommend a track day they have a entry level group and they give you great instruction (at least the one I was in)  I put 30k miles on the Concours last year and now I am hitting the peg feelers when riding and feel very comfortable in my skills and the bikes abilities.  Also I had my suspension setup and that also made a huge improvement over the bike's handling in the tight stuff...

Anyways have fun, be safe and most of all enjoy yourself.


Offline maxtog

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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2012, 03:21:41 PM »
Ditto with me too.  A lot of good/excellent posts above.  This is really a very good thread.

Matt, you are not alone.  I am by no means a fast/aggressive bike driver either.  And I am even less so on the Concours than any other bike I have owned.  Mostly because it is higher and heavier, it just scares me.   Despite the weight and height, it is a very powerful bike, more power than anything else I have owned, so that doesn't help matters.  In the past, most of the time I rode with (always followed) a friend, who is a MUCH better bike rider than I am.  And that changes everything.  If he could do it, I knew it was safe for me to do also, if I did it the same way... and with practice and repeating, I started to learn what was possible- which is far, far, far more than my internal warning system would ever have allowed.  And it was far less than what my other bikes could do, too.

Unfortunately, he moved away, and I upgraded to the Concours and have never ridden with anyone again, since.  I lost my practice and have no idea what the limits of the Concours are (yes, they are a zillion times higher than any Harley, but that is not the point).  It doesn't help that as I get older, I am more afraid and nervous than ever.  But, for me, it is not a contest.  I really don't care if I am fast "enough" in corners... I am riding to either have fun or to get someplace.  Both can be accomplished without pushing the envelope.

The alarms in your head CAN keep you safe, even if you would be safe going twice as fast.  I know if I don't do something stupid, the Concours (yes, even on stock tires) can go way beyond my worst panic alarms.  What scares me more is what I can't see- a sudden something around a corner, a deer jumping out, a car turning in front of me, a car veering into my lane.  There are times it is hard for me to relax and enjoy a ride because I know just how dangerous riding a bike can be.  Fortunately, I have never had a bad accident or wipeout; if I did, I am probably one of those people who could simply not recover and ride again :(
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Offline gonzosc1

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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2012, 03:30:54 PM »
my first question would be, is the bike "setup" for you?  when I first got mine it scared the crap outta me until I learned how to set the bike up and make adjustments on it.  the difference was night and day only after having the c14 for a month or so.  with a good setup I was not leaning and working so hard with the bike. curves that required me to almost lay the bike over are now few.

Offline Texas Concours14

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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2012, 03:47:20 PM »
This IS a good thread.  What you describe are what Keith Code refers to as "survival reactions."  His Twist of the Wrist II video is worthwhile.  I am no Valentino Rossi, and although I think I am pushing my personal evelope I know I am not (peg feelers aren't too beat up).  My concerns about going into a turn too hot is not that I won't be able to lean enough (because I know the PR3s and the bike are more than capable) but that there will be something in the road that will take me down.  Tar snakes, actual snakes (had a couple of those in the road in the middle of a turn) and dreaded sand can ruin a nice run through twisties.  I have not done a track day, and want to do so.  Nonetheless, I prefer to take it a bit easy and be upright than to push into a corner faster than my ability or the environment will allow.  Nonetheless, when conditions are optimal I do take the opportunity to go into a turn just a bit faster than I would otherwise in order to extend my comfort zone and have some fun.

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Offline lt1

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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2012, 04:47:47 PM »
First, kudos to the forum for the empathy and kindness of the responses.

Next, awareness, caution and prudence are all good things to have when riding.  Fear is not.  Knowledge, then skill, will help eliminate that fear.

Personal experience.  I rode 150k miles in my first motorcycling career, and really didn't know how to ride.  I fell off/crashed a few times early on and really didn't understand why.  I felt the fear of cornering every time I leaned the bike over, because I didn't know if I would crash again.  I rode faster on the straights to prove that I wasn't a coward.  When I took up riding again after a 14 year absence, I was scared riding in a straight line.  I almost ran off the road when I panicked in a corner and stood it up on the brakes.  So I decided to learn more about riding, and it has made a huge difference.  I'm still not one of the "fast guys", but I am much more comfortable cornering now.

A few things will help you right now, but please followup with the books and videos and classes mentioned above and below.  First, don't follow closely going into a corner.  Learn to adjust your speed prior to the corner, so that you can feel comfortable accelerating slightly throughout the corner.  Now is not the time to practice late-braking, that will come later, if you desire.  Next, keep you eyes level with the road/horizon and look ahead through the corner.  You want to be focusing 2-3 seconds (or more) ahead of the bike.  This will slow the bike down in your perception and will make an amazing difference.  Let your peripheral vision take care of the closer stuff.  You can practice focusing ahead even when you are riding on the straights. 

Those things will help, but to get where you want to be, read, watch, and learn from the pros.  I would recommend starting with David L Hough's Proficient Motorcycling.  He also wrote More Proficient Motorcycling.  These are very much real-life and street oriented, and do an excellent job.  In no particular order, I also highly recommmend Nick Ienatsch's Sport Riding Techniques, Lee Parks' Total Control, Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist I & II (both book and video), and Jerry Palladino's Ride Like a Pro video.  Parks, Code and Palladino also offer training classes.  FWIW, it was Code in Twist I that talks about your $10 of attention, not Parks.  Most of the instruction is very similar, but the styles and teaching methods are just different enough to make each a valuable investment in yourself.  Palladino is the odd man out in the group as his focus is mostly on low-speed (parking lot speeds) handling, whereas the others focus more on street, highway and tract handling. 

Hope that helps you as much as it has me.
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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2012, 05:06:26 PM »
My home track was Brownstown IN but ran Eldora every chance I got. I miss racing so much but I am too old and too broke to play that game anymore.

I could extend my peg feelers 6" and they'd still be in no danger of getting scratched up!
I really want to do a track day or several for that matter but I just don't want to put my Connie at risk. I had been looking for a cheaper used 600 strictly for a track bike but nothing good has come up in my price range. I probably should have kept my V-Strom and used it but I thought I could sell it and and get something for less than half what I sold it for.

As I mentioned above, tire grip isn't a concern. I am nowhere near the limits of even the stock tires. I still have about an inch of chicken strip showing on the rear. Too bad most of you are scattered so far away. It would be great to ride with someone who could teach and critique before I headed to a track day.
I think I'll run down to the library and see if I can't pick up either of the books Dalroo mentioned.

Matt

Matt,

Don't worry about taking the Connie to ride for a track day as there are a great deal of people on this forum that have done just that.
As long as you listen to the ride instructor all will be good. Track schools are there for a reason so that you will learn the following;

1) Throttle control
2) Head position (and arm position)
3) Braking points
4) Apex in and out of a corner/corners
5) Engine response for a particular gear on a corner or series of corners that you will learn very quickly is best (not 6th unless it is a fast sweeper)
6) Classroom lectures enhancing your learning and the art of riding safely and correctly executing each corner and straight away on a track
7) Blah blah
8) Beer tent
9) Food
10) Only joking for "7 through10"  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Have confidence (do not over do it though) but respect the beast is my motto!  ;D

Jon.

Offline basmntdweller

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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2012, 05:23:37 PM »
lt1,
All the things you mention I am doing already. Been through ABATE basic once and Advanced twice. I was looking at a review of Hough's first book and I think I have already read it once. I went ahead and ordered it and Lee Parks' book from Amazon. It can't hurt to read it again.
I wasn't following my buddy real close, just close enough to see his entry and get an idea of how far he was leaning. I was far enough back that if he went down I had plenty of time to stop. I didn't expect him to have any problem though. While he has only been riding on the street about 3 years, he has been on bikes since he was 6 years old. Only 3 years in his life of 52 years he wasn't riding a bike since he got his first one.

I still go back to you can't gain the skill and confidence to alleviate the fear without pushing beyond your comfort limits. So what is the best way to do so? Track days would play a part but they are expensive and not that frequent at least here in my area. Riding with someone in the lead that is going just a little over your comfort speed is the most available to me but even that is not that often. I can only handle about 4 hours a day in the saddle and decent roads are about an hour away.

Matt

On a lighter note, a young couple that is friends of mine from Texas took this week for a vacation to the Dragon. Ashley got her first knee drag today and her fiance was scraping his boot regularly. They are having a great time. I wouldn't begin to try to keep up with them. She was really happy with it. They are both riding SV 650s.
'09 C14
'98 DR-350
'11 Suzuki C50T wife's ride since she hates my Connie
'03 Honda CBR600RR track bike

Offline rcannon409

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Re: Lean angle alarms keep going off
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2012, 06:01:03 PM »
If you add good tires and pull the bags off, you'll be shocked to see how nice this bike is. Both take away from what the machine really is...and how damn good it is. 

Find some good, fast (70mph) sweepers to build confidence.   Then move on from there.

But Jeremy Mitchell nailed this.  A slow rider looks safe.   A fast rider, wadded up on the side of the road looks like an idiot. 

Now, if you really want to figure this out, in a safe way, find an old dirt bike. Borrow one, buy one, whatever. Find a nice isolated trail or track and go nuts.  You'll learn bikes love to slide and its no big deal....the c14 is just  abig dirt bike, really.  It too loves to slide and will do it all day long.