Author Topic: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests  (Read 9506 times)

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2018, 02:10:38 PM »
I dug out my shims and measured some . ProX shims are .0005 smaller than the OEM according to my measurements.

This is an interesting mystery.

Wayne

are you talking about the outside diameter, or the actual thickness' ?

just asking... I wouldn't fret the O.D. variations, nor do I really care as much about the thickness variations per se, as I always measure each and every shims thickness, and record it... and they DO differ sometimes, as much as .0003" which is substantial, thus my records, for usage and swap of positions where it may be a benefit, or a hindrance.

Looking back at my shim swap charts, using all KAWASAKI OEM shims, with markings on them... the odd measurements I recorded are thus...
4x shims marked #30, 3x were .0909" thk., ONE was .0907" thk.
4x shims marked #28, 3x were .0900" thk, ONE was .0898" thk.
6x shims marked #25, 4x were .0892" thk., ONE was .0891" thk, and ONE was .0889" thk.

now, mind you none of this was a deal breaker as far as I am concerned, as I measure everything, and also the thickness of the bucket's  heads which can vary substantially also ( from .1053" to .1071"), , so it actually offered me some benefit when working to stack up "ideal" combinations...

so, if you think about it, the buckets can vary in a range of tolerance, which actually excedes the "range" of the .0020" span between what is considered as tight, or loose spec....

this is why when only addressing the shims, by numbers printed on them, most folks end up removing the cams 2, or even 3 times, in their "attempt" to get those magic "perfect max clearance zone" measurements.

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Offline lather

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2018, 04:31:37 PM »
I measured all my shims as well. The "used" OEM shims that still had the numbers visible (the black pain on most had worn off) were off in a few instances. All of the hot cam and ProX shims were nearly spot on. I don't know wether shims wear with use or not. If not, Kawasaki's shims are not well controlled quality wise..
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Offline lather

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2018, 04:35:48 PM »
I just love these detective shows, nothing like a good who done it...er... I mean a good what done it.

The part I don't like is...
... when they end with "to be continued."  :)
I looked at the poor dead 09 today and counted only 9 dowel pins in the head. The plot thickens.... Now I have to fetch the cam caps out of storage and see if any dowels pins are in them.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2018, 04:44:36 PM »
I measured all my shims as well. The "used" OEM shims that still had the numbers visible (the black pain on most had worn off) were off in a few instances. All of the hot cam and ProX shims were nearly spot on. I don't know wether shims wear with use or not. If not, Kawasaki's shims are not well controlled quality wise..

the shims themselves are extremely wear resistant, and not subject to any wear due to being hardened by a Carborizing process which is extremely robust on the outer surfaces.... the mating parts however, the retainer, and the actual bucket and it's ground "internal contact surface", are slightly softer, and could be subject to some wear, but still, unlikely to amount to anything measurable thru-out the life of the bike.

hopefully you find that ONE elusive dowel in the cam saddle... i await your findings...
Just asking in the meantime, was the missing dowel on the right side, or left???? ( lefthand side, cyl 1&2 cam caps have 2 each, righthand ones, cyl 3&4 have 3 each...)... :feedback:

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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2018, 04:58:45 PM »
Any damage to the bores for the buckets or on the outside of them?

Any evidence of something that got jammed in the cam or buckets causing it to stop, or hold a valve open?

How many valves are damaged?

Are they all in the same cylinder?

Ivan





Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2018, 05:16:02 PM »
Any damage to the bores for the buckets or on the outside of them?

Any evidence of something that got jammed in the cam or buckets causing it to stop, or hold a valve open?

How many valves are damaged?

Are they all in the same cylinder?

Ivan

?

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Offline kzz1king

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shim size
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2018, 05:29:54 PM »
are you talking about the outside diameter, or the actual thickness' ?

I was talking outside diameter as I thought that was Ivans concern. I measured all of the shims I removed as well as the ones I installed. I still ended up taking the cams out again and redoing some. I had torqued to half spec and remeasured and all seemed good. After final torque things changed! Nice thing about doing your own work is you can afford to take your time.That and North Dakota winters are long.

As far as thickness all shims I measured were good.

Wayne
2010 CONCOURS
1974 Z-1

Offline lather

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2018, 05:34:27 PM »
The missing dowel pin is from the #2 cyl which is the cyl that the loose keepers came from. I can feel the valve stem in the #2 outboard, #2 inboard feels like something larger stuck in there. both #2 valves are what I call dropped, keepers let go. I think both #3 valves are  bent. I don't see damage to the buckets or bores but can't see much of the bores without a mirror.
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2018, 05:48:17 PM »
Gotta find the cam cap to see if the dowel is actually missing... and pull the head.

You may be able to tilt the engine by removing all the motor mounts except the bottom one by the shock.
(If you feel ambitious :) )

Offline lather

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2018, 10:26:16 AM »
Got my stored parts out of storage. No sign of the tenth dowel pin.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2018, 10:35:12 AM »
Folks,

Not even the magazines have given you these tests and a window to see this information.


Knowing how this system functions makes it easy to understand how a botched valve adjustment can lead to a blown engine.


Example;

Mechanic installs C14 intake cam one tooth advanced by accident.... under light to moderate throttle he would notice nothing wrong and could use the bike indefinitely like this as long as he never gives more than 50% or more throttle.....

Once the throttle is opened more than the amount needed to push the cam into full advance position, there would be mechanical valve to piston contact and failure.
 
Once there are broken parts in the cylinder destroying things and jamming things cam(s) valves ....etc... and cannot rotate due to mechanical interference, the weakest link will give in.... at high rpm, all kinds of things will shear off and get destroyed.

The key here is that there are 2 of these failures that are documented here on this board and also on COG and the common link is that they both failed after valve adjustment. One failed immediately.....

The other one took longer, I suspect due to gentle riding habits.

One was due to his own mistake while adjusting his own valves.


Ivan


   HMMM.

   Steve

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2018, 11:13:28 AM »
Tough to read through photos but it looks like the bottom / left bearing cap set, right cap specifically, is scored and may have had excessive journal pressure.

If the cam caps are aligned the way they go in the engine (though upside- down of course) then it would be cylinder #2, intake cam specifically that took the brunt of the pressure.

Just speculating based on one photo so do not take my comments with much weight.

Brian

Got my stored parts out of storage. No sign of the tenth dowel pin.
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Offline lather

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2018, 12:33:04 PM »
The one I believe you are referring to is the left intake. What's  showing in the pic seems more like burnishing than scoring to the eyeball up close. I am thinking what I feel stuck in the inboard #2 ex valve bore is the missing dowel pin.
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Offline deepseamdv

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2018, 12:49:57 PM »
Since I have 0 chance actually getting my hands on this engine I'd sure like to see some Hi-Res photos. But since that's not going to happen either I'll just be happy to keep reading.


Any chance the cap was installed with "possibly a different shorter length bolt that doesn't bottom in the head and crushes/deforms the cam cap when tightened". As suggested by a "World Renowned" mechanic on the other forum ?
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Offline lather

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2018, 01:06:40 PM »
Whenever a part uses different length bolt I punch them into a sheet of cardboard and label them. But if I remember correctly they are all same length. Would be happy to post high res pics.🧐
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2018, 03:16:04 PM »
Tough to read through photos but it looks like the bottom / left bearing cap set, right cap specifically, is scored and may have had excessive journal pressure.

If the cam caps are aligned the way they go in the engine (though upside- down of course) then it would be cylinder #2, intake cam specifically that took the brunt of the pressure.

Just speculating based on one photo so do not take my comments with much weight.

Brian

if you flip the cap over, it's installed position with the dowel pins in place, would make that 'questionable' saddle the one over cylinder #1 not #2... the dowel pins run along the rear face of the intakes cams, and the front face of the head on the exhaust cams...

oh, Deapsea was just interjecting a bit of tongue in cheek humor... about bolts.. :rotflmao:

also I don't see any real "evidence" of any catastrophic "seizure/galling" of any surface that would indicate a "seized" camshaft...
just sayin' ::)

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #56 on: February 26, 2018, 03:22:09 PM »
The one I believe you are referring to is the left intake. What's  showing in the pic seems more like burnishing than scoring to the eyeball up close. I am thinking what I feel stuck in the inboard #2 ex valve bore is the missing dowel pin.

how did it manage to get on there, ? with the cam bucket sitting in place over the retainer and valve... ?

there's about .010" free clearance around that cam bucket.. :-X

I also don't see any clear and glaring evidence of anything, dowel pin included, bouncing around and smooshing under the free spaces of the cam saddle blocks adjacent to any lobes.. and I've seen a lot of destroyed top ends over the last 45 years.. :popcorn: :rotflmao:

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Offline deepseamdv

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2018, 10:03:53 PM »
+1 MOB.


It is difficult to "Properly" torque an assembly when the bolts bottom and tighten against the bottom of the hole and not the intended parts.  :-[
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Offline lather

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2018, 06:37:45 AM »
how did it manage to get on there, ? with the cam bucket sitting in place over the retainer and valve... ?

there's about .010" free clearance around that cam bucket.. :-X

I also don't see any clear and glaring evidence of anything, dowel pin included, bouncing around and smooshing under the free spaces of the cam saddle blocks adjacent to any lobes.. and I've seen a lot of destroyed top ends over the last 45 years.. :popcorn: :rotflmao:
After thinking about it some more after posting that I realized it probably coudn't get in there. Feeling for it again last night it wasn't there any more, I must have loosened it and it fell out of reach. Anyway it probably was a keeper I was feeling.

Able to look at the camshafts and caps closely and in good light I feel confident the cams did not seize.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2018, 06:53:51 AM »


Able to look at the camshafts and caps closely and in good light I feel confident the cams did not seize.

Seizure is actually welding the parts together. As such, you'll see aluminum actually stuck to the cam journal. The journal bore in the head would be oversized, with aluminum that had almost liquified from the head eeking it's way off the edges, so it would not have the sharp machined edges anymore. Seizing is very obvious and ugly, and you won't need a metallurgy degree to identify it. I looked at the pics of the caps too, there's some places light trash scored the journals, but no siezure.  Steve