Author Topic: What did you do to your Concours today? (Read 855538 times)

okrider · « **Reply #3080 on:** June 21, 2018, 08:47:25 AM »

Quote from: jwh20 on June 21, 2018, 08:39:22 AM

This is why you MUST RE-PROGRAM ALL YOUR Key Immobilizers every time you want to add one. (Dealers, for some reason, just can't get this!)

Thanks for the clarification. This is exactly where I'm having the issue. I think the dealer keeps pressing re-program all immobilizers for each immobilizer so only programs the one and breaks the other. Thanks for offering to help with KDS as well. Looking forward to seeing it in action.

I don't think anyone at the dealership bothered to read the KDS manual. They also probably couldn't explain the situation properly to Kawasaki which is why they thought they did it right.

Thanks to the info on the forum, I know I'm not supposed to get SUBKEY ID ERROR when trying the FOB without a battery and like you guessed, that's the one I'm having issue with. The "credit card" immobilizer I bought works fine now. I'll be sure to bring both to our meeting.

just gone · « **Reply #3081 on:** June 21, 2018, 09:04:39 AM »

Quote from: jwh20 on June 21, 2018, 08:39:22 AM

Kawasaki sells TWO FOBs for the C14 and there are TWO different systems on the bike to unlock it. First the two systems are, in Kawasaki's terms:

1) KiPass
2) Key Immobilizer

It helps if you speak to them in THEIR terminology. KiPass is the ACTIVE 300MHz (in North America at least) system that will unlock the bike from a short distance away. When you press the stove-knob the KiPass ECU under the seat sends a radio signal that is picked up by the KiPass FOB. The FOB then replies and if the bike is happy with the reply, the ECU will unlock the bike. The Key Immobilizer system is different, actually completely different and independent and it ONLY comes into play if the KiPass system fails to locate a FOB and unlock the bike. The Key Immobilizer system is a very short-range RFID system with the transceiver located in the front part of the keyswitch housing. So for it to do anything you must NOT have your KiPass FOB around with a battery in it and must hold a Key Immobilizer device against the front of the keyswitch housing while you press the knob. The KiPass ECU sends a signal to the keyswitch to try to read a Key Immobilizer and if successful, it will unlock the bike.

Ok, once that's straight we need to talk about the FOBs themselves. As I mentioned, there are TWO.

1) KiPass FOB - This is the "big" FOB with the battery in it. But, and this is the part that trips up many dealers and C14 owners, there is ALSO a Key Immobilizer device inside of the housing. If you take it apart like you are changing the battery, you will see it in the larger end of the half of the case that does NOT have the battery slot. It's a small ( about 10mm x 2mm) black plastic bit that you might otherwise miss. This is a Key Immobilizer FOB device and if you remove it from the KiPass FOB housing it can start the bike all by itself. This is the one that the dealers never know to program and, I believe, is the one you are having issues with. (BTW, make sure your KiPass FOB has this inside. I suppose it's possible that it could have been removed at some point.)

This is also why you don't have to worry about getting stranded by a dead KiPass FOB battery since, as long as it's properly programmed into the bike, this will always start your bike in a pinch. You take the key out of the FOB, place the empty slot where the key was over the top of the keyswitch, and press the knob. The bike will unlock. Try it but you must remove the battery first, otherwise KiPass will unlock the bike and you'll never test this function.

The KiPass system uses IDs that come ONLY on the plastic bags that come with a new bike or with a new FOB from Kawasaki. As far as we now know, it's NOT possible to recover this ID if you don't have the bag with the label. So an ID-less FOB is nearly useless. You can repurpose the Key Immobilizer chip but nothing else. But you MUST have the ID for the FOB if you want to program a KiPass FOB into your bike. No ID, no programming! This is also why you are stuck if you lose all your FOBs. You cannot enter programming mode if you cannot unlock the bike. So you must buy a new KiPass ECU that comes with a FOB pre-programmed into it to revive your C14. NEVER KEEP ALL YOUR FOBs with you. Leave one at home or in a safe-deposit box so that if the worst-case scenario happens, you can (eventually) get your bike started. If you bought a used bike with just the KiPass FOB, remove the Key Immobilizer chip and leave it home until you get a spare! I personally have one KiPass FOB and TWO Key Immobilizer FOBs. I use the KiPass for daily rides. If I'm going on a trip, I pack the Key Immobilizer, usually in an inner-pocket so I can get it in a pinch. I always leave the 2nd Key Immobilizer at home so that I have a fail-safe backup if everything gets lost or stolen.

The ECU has 6, and only 6 slots for these FOB IDs. A new 2010+ comes with ONE slot programmed. 2008-2009 come with TWO FOBs and TWO slots programmed. You CANNOT EVER re-use a slot, you can only erase/deactivate it. Once you've written all 6 slots, no more KiPass FOBs can be added. The KDS system does show you which slots are available and used but it DOES NOT show you the IDs in any slot. So you cannot recover IDs using the KDS system. (I have a suspicion that there is a way, but it's currently unknown to the public.)

2) Key Immobilizer FOB - this is the small "credit card" FOB (although it's a lot smaller than a credit card) and this contains ONLY a Key Immobilizer device and a space for the tiny "spare" key. The Key Immobilizer system does not have any printed ID that you must know. Once you enter the Key Immobilizer programming mode you place each and EVERY Key Immobilizer FOB you want to use, one at a time, above the keyswitch, and it will read and record the IDs. Once you have read all of them, you tell KDS to program the Key Immobilizer and it will REPLACE whatever is in the ECU with the new set of IDs. From that point on, only those ID will unlock the bike. This is why you MUST RE-PROGRAM ALL YOUR Key Immobilizers every time you want to add one. (Dealers, for some reason, just can't get this!)

So this is why the KiPass FOB is tricky, if you buy a spare, you need to have BOTH parts of it programmed into the bike, as well as all your other Key Immobilizer FOB devices to have a complete set of working FOBs.

I hope this helps your understanding of what's going on. IMHO there is little excuse for a dealer not to know how to do this. It's all clearly documented in the KDS Users Manual, which they have! There is absolutely NO excuse for the Kawasaki Service Technical line folks to not know how to help their dealer out.

This could be a sticky in a Wiki somewhere!

Best explanation since B.D.F.'s in Johnson City!

A question: I'm under the impression that the Key Immobilizer section is also limited to six slots, although the slots are re-writable unlike the KIPASS slots. Is this accurate?..only 6 slots for Key Immobilizer chip registration?

okrider · « **Reply #3082 on:** June 21, 2018, 09:09:22 AM »

Everyone should print this and take it to their dealer when trying to get their fobs/immobilizers programmed. Make sure they read it 3 times, and then have them do the work in front of you..

lather · « **Reply #3083 on:** June 21, 2018, 09:46:27 AM »

My replacement C14 came with only one fob. I bought two passive fobs and brought them with me when I went to Steve in Sunny FL to get the flash and Steve programmed the two new fobs and the one active fob. I watched him do it and the software screens tell you what to do but the instructions leave some doubt as to what is meant. It took a few tries to get everythingl right, even for a wizard. It is easy to see how the typical motorcycle tech can be confused.

B.D.F. · « **Reply #3084 on:** June 21, 2018, 10:50:34 AM »

Gee thanks but the presentation might have been better if I was sober.... Oh, wait: I was sober for that but tipsy shaving Chuck.

Actually, as I remember, I was trying to give an over- view to potential C-14 owners, expecting the folks attending to be NON- OWNERS but in the end, there were only two people in the auditorium who did not actually own C-14's. That is when I realized there really is a serious lack of information in the hands of actual C-14 owners.

Both the KiPass ECU, which works only with RF fobs, and the separate immobilizer in the ign. switch housing have six programmable slots. The difference is that the ones in the KiPass ECU or write- once, meaning once each one is used, it can not be re- coded to recognize a different RF fob. The RIFD immobilizer in the ign. switch housing has re- writable fob slots and can be re-written over and over again.

Quote from: fartymarty on June 21, 2018, 09:04:39 AM

This could be a sticky in a Wiki somewhere!
Best explanation since B.D.F.'s in Johnson City!

A question: I'm under the impression that the Key Immobilizer section is also limited to six slots, although the slots are re-writable unlike the KIPASS slots. Is this accurate?..only 6 slots for Key Immobilizer chip registration?

FTB530 · « **Reply #3085 on:** June 21, 2018, 10:53:31 AM »

Quote from: okrider on June 20, 2018, 05:38:43 PM

The dealership I was at called Kawasaki HotLine on the phone to confirm they are doing it right and was told that it needs a battery for the passive fob to work. Shows you how much Kawasaki Customer Support knows as documentation you can find on this forum shows it is supposed to work without the battery in it.

I don't really care how it's supposed to work or not. I just want a bike that is not going to leave me stranded. I think I found someone who is going to be able to help me in a couple weeks.

I spent hours learning how it's supposed to learn and be programmed. Dealership I went to didn't even know the small RFID fobs were programmable. Proceeded to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and wouldn't bother to do the research.

Part of what confused me is that the tech programmed the passive fob that will now work on the second bike but not the active fob, I don’t have a clue about the programming but if you can do the passive why not the active?

okrider · « **Reply #3086 on:** June 21, 2018, 11:02:45 AM »

Quote from: FTB530 on June 21, 2018, 10:53:31 AM

Part of what confused me is that the tech programmed the passive fob that will now work on the bike but not the active fob, I don’t have a clue about the programming but if you can do the passive why not the active?

You can do both. He just doesn't know how. My guess is he would program the immobilizer of the active fob and then when he wants to program the spare immobilizer, he would start from scratch which wipes all the registered immobilizers. Of course, customers aren't allowed to the work area so there's no way for me to know what he actually did.

To be clear, I am talking about the immobilizer feature of the active fob. My fob still works fine with it in my pocket.

jwh20 · « **Reply #3087 on:** June 21, 2018, 11:20:52 AM »

Quote from: okrider on June 21, 2018, 08:47:25 AM

Thanks for the clarification. This is exactly where I'm having the issue. I think the dealer keeps pressing re-program all immobilizers for each immobilizer so only programs the one and breaks the other. Thanks for offering to help with KDS as well. Looking forward to seeing it in action.

I don't think anyone at the dealership bothered to read the KDS manual. They also probably couldn't explain the situation properly to Kawasaki which is why they thought they did it right.

Thanks to the info on the forum, I know I'm not supposed to get SUBKEY ID ERROR when trying the FOB without a battery and like you guessed, that's the one I'm having issue with. The "credit card" immobilizer I bought works fine now. I'll be sure to bring both to our meeting.

The SUBKEY ID ERROR, according to the manual, indicates an issue with the Key Immobilizer function. It could indicate a problem with the FOB or the reader but since you have one working Key Immobilizer, then I think it's safe to assume that the reader is not at fault. What's not clear is if an FOB that the bike doesn't "know" about is used to try to unlock the bike will generate this error. I'll have to give that a try and see. Right now all my Key Immobilizers are known by my bike but I can re-do it and leave one out and see what happens.

jwh20 · « **Reply #3088 on:** June 21, 2018, 11:23:10 AM »

Quote from: fartymarty on June 21, 2018, 09:04:39 AM

This could be a sticky in a Wiki somewhere!
Best explanation since B.D.F.'s in Johnson City!

A question: I'm under the impression that the Key Immobilizer section is also limited to six slots, although the slots are re-writable unlike the KIPASS slots. Is this accurate?..only 6 slots for Key Immobilizer chip registration?

Yes, Key Immobilizer is limited to 6 total but these can be re-written as you please. I'm sure there is a limit due to the EEPROM technology that is used in the ECU but it's likely on the order of 10K (likely 100K or more) cycles.

B.D.F. · « **Reply #3089 on:** June 21, 2018, 11:32:12 AM »

They are two different tasks, in two different parts of the KDS software. So someone can do one, either one and not the 'other', which is why some people have working RF fobs that will NOT work when the battery is removed and used in the RFID mode. BTW, they are two very different sections inside the active fob as well, there is a circuit board that is the RF section and a small inductor pressed into the plastic body of the fob that is not touching any part of the circuit board. Again, they really are two separate and independent systems that do not interact or work together at all.

Brian

Quote from: FTB530 on June 21, 2018, 10:53:31 AM

Part of what confused me is that the tech programmed the passive fob that will now work on the second bike but not the active fob, I don’t have a clue about the programming but if you can do the passive why not the active?

okrider · « **Reply #3090 on:** June 21, 2018, 11:37:33 AM »

Quote from: jwh20 on June 21, 2018, 11:20:52 AM

The SUBKEY ID ERROR, according to the manual, indicates an issue with the Key Immobilizer function. It could indicate a problem with the FOB or the reader but since you have one working Key Immobilizer, then I think it's safe to assume that the reader is not at fault. What's not clear is if an FOB that the bike doesn't "know" about is used to try to unlock the bike will generate this error. I'll have to give that a try and see. Right now all my Key Immobilizers are known by my bike but I can re-do it and leave one out and see what happens.

If there was no RFID in the fob, I wouldn't get any message at all. If it was registered properly, bike would start. Pretty sure it's just because the tech didn't register it properly. We will find out soon enough. I will be purchasing another passive credit card immobilizer as a backup like you have. I'll try that on the fob prior to programming and find out if I get SUBKEY ID ERROR or something else.

jwh20 · « **Reply #3091 on:** June 21, 2018, 11:46:05 AM »

Here is a helpful (hopefully) photo of the insides of a FOB. Note the little space where the pointer is showing. That's where the Key Immobilizer portion lives. I've removed it and it's the little black thing at the right of the photo. The circuit board contains all of the KiPass FOB functionality EXCEPT for the battery which lives in the other half of the case:

The circuit board, perhaps the entire FOB is made by Mitsubishi, they are a major supplier of automotive electronic parts and systems. The Key Immobilizer is, I believe, some variation of a standard automotive "transponder" key system. I believe the specific one used here is made by NXP (formerly Philips Semiconductor) also a major automotive electronics parts supplier. This may be at least a variant of the chip used, this one follows the HITAG2 protocol:

http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/PCF7936AS__3851__C,1.pdf

B.D.F. · « **Reply #3092 on:** June 21, 2018, 11:51:11 AM »

I believe you are exactly correct.

Beyond being different pieces of hardware, the bike reacts to each one differently too. For example, if the bike is started with the RF fob (or portion of that fob), it will again poll to sense that fob on very specific times (passing 12 MPH, shifting into 6th gear and one other instance I cannot remember right now). But if the bike is started with an RFID fob, even if it is a full RF type of fob but missing the battery, the system will not every poll trying to sense the fob again for the duration of time the bike is running. This is because you have to hold the fob against the boss on the ign. switch housing and you will remove it as soon as the bike is started so it cannot be sensed again once the bike is running. Unless of course you glue or tape the RFID fob to the boss on the housing but Kawasaki never intended it to be used that way.

Brian

Quote from: okrider on June 21, 2018, 11:37:33 AM

If there was no RFID in the fob, I wouldn't get any message at all. If it was registered properly, bike would start. Pretty sure it's just because the tech didn't register it properly. We will find out soon enough. I will be purchasing another passive credit card immobilizer as a backup like you have. I'll try that on the fob prior to programming and find out if I get SUBKEY ID ERROR or something else.

gPink · « **Reply #3093 on:** June 21, 2018, 12:55:49 PM »

Is there any warning that the six one use slots are used up? Could the dealer use them up trying to blindly program the system?

okrider · « **Reply #3094 on:** June 21, 2018, 01:08:51 PM »

I haven't seen the program but I doubt they'll give you a warning for the 6 slots for the "active" fobs.

The passive "immobilizer" slots are reusable so that won't be an issue.

jwh20 · « **Reply #3095 on:** June 21, 2018, 02:05:33 PM »

Quote from: gPink on June 21, 2018, 12:55:49 PM

Is there any warning that the six one use slots are used up? Could the dealer use them up trying to blindly program the system?

No, I don't think the dealer can mess it up unless they use multiple FOBs and register them all. I guess that could happen if they had a few on-hand (unlikely) and thought there was a problem and registered 4-5 of them trying to work things about. That would be an unfortunate situation I think!

While I have not yet been able to prove this, I believe that NOTHING in the FOB changes when it's registered to the bike. So it should be possible to register ONE FOB to operation multiple C14's if you had some desire to do that. I've not wanted to know the answer to this question badly enough to spend the $250+ to buy another KiPass FOB to play around with. Of course if anyone has one lying around and you have the ID, I'd be glad to try it out and report back.

jwh20 · « **Reply #3096 on:** June 21, 2018, 02:08:06 PM »

BTW, I don't think the site rules allow linking to copyrighted documents but if you do a search for "kawasaki KDS software manual" you will find multiple sites that host this document.

https://www.google.com/search?q=kawasaki+KDS+software+manual&oq=kawasaki+KDS+software+manual

B.D.F. · « **Reply #3097 on:** June 21, 2018, 02:32:04 PM »

No. But it would take some pretty extraordinary instance(s) to fill up all six slots, lose or destroy ALL those fobs and end up with a KiPass ECU that you could not get a fob to work with because all the memory was already burned.

As far as someone making a mistake and using more than one slot for a fob, I do not know if that can be done but I suspect so. Still, someone would have to make 3 mistakes (assuming adding a new fob, which takes one slot, and two were already taken from the factory on '08- '10 models, and one on '10 and later models). I really think this falls under the heading of 'it could happen' but it ain't likely and not something to worry about IMO.

Brian

Quote from: gPink on June 21, 2018, 12:55:49 PM

Is there any warning that the six one use slots are used up? Could the dealer use them up trying to blindly program the system?

jwh20 · « **Reply #3098 on:** June 21, 2018, 02:36:28 PM »

Quote from: B.D.F. on June 21, 2018, 02:32:04 PM

No. But it would take some pretty extraordinary instance(s) to fill up all six slots, lose or destroy ALL those fobs and end up with a KiPass ECU that you could not get a fob to work with because all the memory was already burned.

As far as someone making a mistake and using more than one slot for a fob, I do not know if that can be done but I suspect so. Still, someone would have to make 3 mistakes (assuming adding a new fob, which takes one slot, and two were already taken from the factory on '08- '10 models, and one on '10 and later models). I really think this falls under the heading of 'it could happen' but it ain't likely and not something to worry about IMO.

Brian

In my experience, most dealers can't even get the KDS software to run on their PC. So the likelihood of them doing anything so drastic seems remote. It appears that the engineers at Kawasaki did their best to make the KDS system as foolproof as possible.

Conniesaki · « **Reply #3099 on:** June 21, 2018, 02:52:05 PM »

Just think ... there are nuclear power plants out there.

And perhaps the reason we haven't had any nuclear wars since WWII is because the people that possess nukes are afraid they'll just incinerate themselves.

News:

Author Topic: What did you do to your Concours today? (Read 855538 times)