Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: jimbob_sf on September 03, 2018, 01:54:38 PM
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I was removing my PCV + Autotune and putting the flies back in when I found a 'lake' of oil pooling inside the intake manifold (or whatever the C14 term is). I haven't been in there since 2009 / 8k miles. (2008 with 48k miles)
Any shots from the hip on this one? There's a tiny bit of oil weeping from the head gasket since the valves were adjusted 5k miles ago, but that feels normal if the new gasket didn't seat perfectly. This little lake doesn't look normal.
I stared in there and I don't see any obvious trail of oil coming from one of the 4 stacks. There is some kind of air pipe sticking up on the right side and that doesn't tell a story either.
Gulp.
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Assuming there hasn't been an after market foam oil impregnated air filter being used, I'm drawing a blank. However, my mind can almost always find some made up crap to stuff in a blank spot...so here goes.....There is an airfilter drain hose in the drawings and maybe if it was plugged or the little plastic bottle at the end of it was full, then the occasional oil fuel blowback because of startup cam chain tensioner slack (clearly I'm pulling this from where the sun/moon don't shine) leaves an intake valve ajar when a piston is starting on the upstroke?...and the oil can't drain out 'cause the hose is plugged or full. However, I'm not sure on which side of the air filter the hose drains from. I thought the rear, but I don't know.
Yeah best you wait until someone that knows what their talking about responds ;D
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help us out here...
are you talking about the black linear area, in the photo, behind the velocity stacks?
I'm not seeing a 'pool'.
valve cover gasket ( as opposed to HEAD Gasket another misnomer,) doesn't equate either...
as they are external, and not related to the issue..(the weepage on the front is likely a bad o ring on the exhaust cam sensor up front.. very common.) again, not related.
maybe some blockage in the airbox drain line...? ( I assume this is what you are calling 'manifold', vs airbox...) which is what the photo shows...
I have seen occasional plugging of the crankcase vent, that runs from under the airbox, to the crank case venting cover below it on the engine, but the only time oil ends up in the box via that hose, is on a turbocharged conversion, where the crankcase is pressurized... which ain't the case here..
wipe it all down, and replace the flies, as you were doing. check the drain line from the airbox, and the plastic collector bottle at the bottom, down on the left, by the idle adjuster screw, and tank drain..
and If in fact you were running a K&N filter, that was over oiled, stop using so much oil on it... go back to a factory airfilter for the next 20k miles, and re check.
not much to say, just from one poor photo, and a description like this...
has nothing to do with the cam chain tensioner either.... check the drain line and empty it, and blow air down thru it from the top, and re cap the bottom..( it can't really suck air back up, if it's capped.).
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...has nothing to do with the cam chain tensioner either....
Well, I was honest about where I was pulling it from. ;D
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Is it fitted with a K&N oiled type air filter as MOB suggests/suspects?
Does the engine use oil between changes? If so, how much?
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Perhaps I'm missing your point as well since I too don't see any oil in the photo but...
It's normal for oil to enter the area between the air filter and the throttle bodies via the crankcase ventilation system. (I think Kawasaki calls it the PAIR system but I'm not sure of that.) But there are reed valves on the top of the valve cover and these are connected through a valve to a tube that comes up through a hole in the bottom of the frame and into the airbox area. The valve is supposed to open under the right circumstances and allow oil-laden crankcase blow-by gasses to be sucked up by engine vacuum into the engine to be burned. Sometimes too much oil gets in there and it pools. There is a drain that is supposed to let it drain out of the bottom of the bike just in front of the shift lever. There should be a small plastic bulb there and you should check that occasionally, drain and make sure there is no blockage. There should be a one-way valve at the bottom to prevent air from getting sucked back up into the airbox.
Now there could be other problems with the system. The valve that controls this might be unplugged or defective. It sits on top of the valve cover and is removed when you do a valve service. Perhaps it was not replaced properly. You could also have too much oil or oil foaming going on that is overwhelming the PAIR system. Finally you might have a problem with too much blow-by in your engine due to bad rings or other damage and that is allowing way too much air to flow into the airbox.
But gloom-and-doom aside, I'm guessing that it's normal and at worst, your drain tube is pinched or blocked and needs to be corrected.
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Well my answer may have come from where the sun don't......but at least I can see oil. :)
Maybe if he had said trench full of oil instead of little lake of oil?
....anyway, so far jwh20 (IMO) has the best answer.
Good luck jimbob', don't leave us hangin' here, let us know what you find.
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Well my answer may have come from where the sun don't......but at least I can see oil. :)
Maybe if he had said trench full of oil instead of little lake of oil?
Good highlighting job. I didn't even notice that in the photo until you pointed it out (at least at the bottom).
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Good highlighting job. I didn't even notice that in the photo until you pointed it out (at least at the bottom).
tough crowd... I believe I eluded to 'that black line behind the venturies' as what he was trying to identify... but again, doesn't really matter, when everyone has opinions on 'where it came from'.
last thing I would have given is the PAIR valves myself...
the PAIR valve/reeds were not designed to burn oil vapor sucked from the crankcase. the system is designed as an "clean air Injection", via the reeds, from the airbox, as an aid in complete combustion downstream of the exhaust valves.
One of the common things people were doing, when retrofitting exhausts, and removing the flies, back when they felt it was 'giving them some benefit" was to actually block off that fresh air intake hose from the airbox, using a marble, or rubber plug, to alleviate the "popping" on de-cell they began having, from the garage mods. It would be interesting to see if this bike had that done.. as it had flies out...(evil grin)
I belive I mentioned what is shown below, in the picture, coupled with a lack of draining due to a hose or collector blockage... but... if there is major vapors collecting in the box, my best bet is the rubber hose that ties directly to the airbox. from the crank case...
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tough crowd... I believe I eluded to 'that black line behind the venturies' as what he was trying to identify...
Meh, I will take bold red arrows over reading and thinking, any day :)
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.... bold green arrows ...
You a funny guy max'.
tough crowd... I believe I eluded to 'that black line behind the venturies' as what he was trying to identify...
Yes we are, and yes you did. :thumbs:
Now for another question(s). Since jimbob' registered in '11 and only has 4 posts....
....will any of us still be alive when he comes back to tell us what he found?
and...is Jimb' getting his bike ready for selling ?...or ready for a reflash?
Expiring mind(s) want to know. ???
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You a funny guy max'.
Ooops, I meant red, of course. Must be my colorblind day.... I will correct
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One of the common things people were doing, when retrofitting exhausts, and removing the flies, back when they felt it was 'giving them some benefit" was to actually block off that fresh air intake hose from the airbox, using a marble, or rubber plug, to alleviate the "popping" on de-cell they began having, from the garage mods. It would be interesting to see if this bike had that done.. as it had flies out...(evil grin)
Bingo: Back in 2008, we put marbles in the hose to reduce the decel popping on the Area P full exhaust. We also walked uphill, both ways, in the snow, to school...
I'll re-read and fill in the other questions. I'll fire the guy who took the pictures..
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LOL..
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95% of me says thank you for all the input. The other 5% says "lighten up Francis".
It looks like I'm going to be ok based on the fantastic feedback above. I went into the airbox to put the flies back in b/c I wanted the ECU flash from Steve rather than the PCV solution. I have no plans to get rid of the bike because the suspension, brake, and lighting tweaks are worth more than the bike at this point.
- The arrows pointed to the lilliputian lake
- I'll pull the marble blocking the fresh air intake hose
- The drain hose is likely clogged b/c it should have drained on its own
My ex-wife didn't like the popping, so I went with the marble trick years ago. I fixed that problem last year, so I'll welcome the popping back. Thank you gentlemen for the help!
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verrrry interesting....
;)
If you haven't checked or replaced your air filter recently, and it has 15k or more miles on it, might want to replace that also, while you are in there... and especially if you are gonna get a flash from SISF.. to get the full benefit. (along with loosing the marble that was blocking the PAIR valve air, it won't pop with the flash, he has that all covered)
:thumbs: :thumbs:
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Thank you gentlemen for the help!
Whoa! Whoa! ......whooooa there buddy. Let's be careful how you throw that G word around.
We Someone might have to get out the sword and start swingin' on this thread.
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Whoa! Whoa! ......whooooa there buddy. Let's be careful how you throw that G word around.
We Someone might have to get out the sword and start swingin' on this thread.
Not to worry...He's only been clubbing baby dragons lately.
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The air filter a K&N that I clean/oil every 6k miles. I totally forgot about the plugged line while I had the fairings off this weekend. I'll pull it apart again, fix the hoses, and report back in a day or two. It may be Saturday before I get time to do that.
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The air filter a K&N that I clean/oil every 6k miles. I totally forgot about the plugged line while I had the fairings off this weekend. I'll pull it apart again, fix the hoses, and report back in a day or two. It may be Saturday before I get time to do that.
This is kinda what I speak about, on doing diagnosis over the net.. and the propensity for "left out" stuff to prevail...
When I hear stuff like this all, i first off ask.."are you using a K&N, and how did you oil it?"
but, as Marty asked, and no response was made... I moved on, and didn't keep poking.. I should have. Marty has been here long enough, and knows the first thing we will ask is....;
Assuming there hasn't been an after market foam oil impregnated air filter being used, I'm drawing a blank....
maybe i should have asked you to 'mop up the oil', and show the oil (on the rag) to us, instead of just saying mop it up and continue on.. my fault for not doing so.. but, if it was reddish, it would have said a lot, if it was just oil mist, yellowish, still would have told me "crank case vent".
Now, It's revealed you have in fact, a K&N, and have been "servicing it" at 6k mile intervals...
I have no idea how much oil you are applying, but, by Assumption once again, i assume you oiled it when you installed it... (these come pre-oiled... no further oiling was required...) and any cleaning and re-oiling, was done using the "plastic bubble filled with red oil" that came with the filter... and everytime it was oiled, you made it look "RED"...
K&N's, when used in cars, have a huge airflow duct, and most over oiling deposits along this duct.. In this bike, and all others, any over oiling will end up in the airbox. It will also affect performance, and in the case of a C14, even coat the sensors in the airbox...
The filters as they come, are designed for LONG miles between services, every 6k is telling me it has always been over oiled.
The good side, is that whatever air is passing thru the filter, is in fact clean, and dust free.. the downside is, a lot of oil vapor (not bad) is being sucked in also, and as the filter does it's job, and begins holding more dust, the engine wants to 'draw air', which it seems to have been doing thru the crank case vent line also...
I've used these filters in ALL my bikes since 1973.. and I still have the can of aerosol oil, which has been used on every filter, for thousands of miles, sitting half full on my bench.
I've tossed every "plastic bubble" of oil, into a bin, and probably have 20+, which were never used.
after cleaning a filter, using concentrated dish soap, and hot water, and drying the filter completely, I 'spray' the cotton untill its "PINK", not dripping red..(and not from 3" away like they show) which is what K&N says is correct... Red, on a bike filter, is simply too much oil.
https://www.knfilters.com/instructions/18627C_inst.pdf (https://www.knfilters.com/instructions/18627C_inst.pdf)
https://www.knfilters.com/blog/ask-the-experts-at-kn-how-to-use-kn-air-filter-oil-how-much-oil-do-i-use (https://www.knfilters.com/blog/ask-the-experts-at-kn-how-to-use-kn-air-filter-oil-how-much-oil-do-i-use)
I don't use these filters on my C14, but do use them on everything else...
Pink is good
Red is over oiled.
pick up the aerosol spray, it's tons easier to use, and use correctly.
Please don't take this as something we (I specifically) are/am saying as something other than we always attempt to help, and now you can see a bit of how difficult it is to ascertain, and diagnose across the continent, via a computer, and actually you are learning something it took years for some of us, to figger' out, and put into simple terms...
it's that 'free prize' thing I always used, when sharing info.
best of luck, and I think you are well on the way to a better running bike.
Ride safe,
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Year's back a buddy of mine put a K ~N in his Magna before a 200 mile ride. We were rolling along pretty good and he run out of gas way before he should have. We had to soak as much of the oil out as we could of it until he got some place to re service it.
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Points taken on the K&N and zero offense taken. In fact, thank you for taking the time to type it all out.
I clean, air dry (usually overnight), and spray the aerosol from a distance. I know these things don't need a lot. Whenever I go into an engine part, I use white paper towels to see what color any residue/dirt/fluid is and a sniff never hurts. The fluid was engine oil, without any inconsistency in color or viscosity.
I'll go back in a month or two and see what's there just to check.
MANY thanks for the time to help.
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Points taken on the K&N and zero offense taken. In fact, thank you for taking the time to type it all out.
I clean, air dry (usually overnight), and spray the aerosol from a distance. I know these things don't need a lot. Whenever I go into an engine part, I use white paper towels to see what color any residue/dirt/fluid is and a sniff never hurts. The fluid was engine oil, without any inconsistency in color or viscosity.
I'll go back in a month or two and see what's there just to check.
MANY thanks for the time to help.
sincerely you are very welcome,
the best 'payment' I ever recieve for sharing is the 'thanks' part.
I think you are well on the way to happy things.
You did really well, comeback, and tell what truley existed, and I thank you for that.
I think after 'pullin the marble', and putting her back to a point, and doing te cool flash mods, you will never have oil pooling in the air box...(well, making sure to blow that drain line out from top to bottom, with the cap off the "pill bottle' there, and also a quick spurt of air, from the airbox tru the hose that vents the crank case, with the oil filler cap OFF, should suffice.)
ride safe, and PLEASE, report back, and tell us the results.. it helps everyone here.
I say this earnestly, as soo many people come here, for a free answer to an issue, and never come back to tell the results.., and we repeat this in an ongoing venture, to help.
don't disappear after it's fixed, please. And always feel free to ask, and share here.. it's why we are doing this...
(oh, and to argue about oil, tires, and other b/s, that doesn't really relate to bikes... )
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leave the pair hose blocked. it has nothing to do with the oil leak, and won't change anything either way with the flash. Steve
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leave the pair hose blocked. it has nothing to do with the oil leak, and won't change anything either way with the flash. Steve
thank you, and I agree, but I wanted him to put it back to OEM, which I know you have as a base point.., and if you supplied a flash, based on base point, it may effect it/.. ..no?
you and I know what I speak of. (I also asked because someone made a comment about the PAIR valve's "function", thus my enjoyment when it was said to be blocked, and actually not in the 'loop' as a cause..)
That said, I know, just how much you have had to spend time, going over hidden points, to remain the Best Tuner, I know... .. luv ya bro.
it's the little things that always fug us on analysis.
agreed?
(jeeeebus dude, come back here and help me dispel (clarify) some of the stuff people write here every day...myself included, because i'm old and my mind don't werk rite....sumtymz... PLEEEEEEEEZE....) :'( ;)
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ride safe, and PLEASE, report back, and tell us the results.. it helps everyone here.
I say this earnestly, as soo many people come here, for a free answer to an issue, and never come back to tell the results.., and we repeat this in an ongoing venture, to help.
+1 !! It is how we learn
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+1 !! It is how we learn
:thumbs: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
yep, that, and the fact we keep doing this, all our lives.....meh, we are just mere mortals...
(https://dealerplatformnet.blob.core.windows.net/wwwgreenhomesolutionscom/blog-images/8084b03c-3383-4b47-b484-5e5c6d670cce.jpg)
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This is what happens when someone thinks they know what they are doing and does something that actually causes problems....
I pulled the steel ball out (it was the center of a mouse ball, not a marble), plugged in the ECU (mountain runner), adjusted the throttle cables, and it's running perfectly. The decel popping is negligible. The front end got light in 3rd gear at 7k+ rpm going up a hill on the highway. Having the front end wiggle as the speedo blurs past 80 is absolutely hilarious.
Back to the smart guy. Laugh with me on this. If my bike had a real problem with that much oil collecting all the time, I'd have a lot more issues, right? "You" kept on saying there may be other sources of the fluid I photographed. Maybe this explains things...
Over the spring and summer, the bike started running rough at cold startup and was basically dangerous until it was warm. It had the valves adjusted < 5k miles ago, so I assumed the engine was due for a Sea Foam soak treatment and additive to the gas. This smart guy forgot that a month ago, I pulled the air filter and, wait for it, emptied a can of Sea Foam aerosol into the manifold. I knew there was a drain hose, but didn't know the collector down by the shifter has a cap on it! The collector and hose were full of a fluid that was less viscous than oil. Duh. The Sea Foam that didn't get sucked into the intake had filled the hose and was still sitting in the manifold to make the "lake" in my pictures.
I've sufficiently chastised myself for rushing through the foaming. If you all hadn't persisted in poking at a story that didn't add up, I never would have kept looking at the problem. THANK YOU!
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LOL! Great story. Glad it is going well now.
PS- when mine starts to idle rough when cold, I run a tank with Techron additive through it and it clears it right up for another year :) Seems to be one of those "snake oils" that actually works.
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help us out here...
are you talking about the black linear area, in the photo, behind the velocity stacks?
I'm not seeing a 'pool'.
valve cover gasket ( as opposed to HEAD Gasket another misnomer,) doesn't equate either...
as they are external, and not related to the issue..(the weepage on the front is likely a bad o ring on the exhaust cam sensor up front.. very common.) again, not related.
maybe some blockage in the airbox drain line...? ( I assume this is what you are calling 'manifold', vs airbox...) which is what the photo shows...
I have seen occasional plugging of the crankcase vent, that runs from under the airbox, to the crank case venting cover below it on the engine, but the only time oil ends up in the box via that hose, is on a turbocharged conversion, where the crankcase is pressurized... which ain't the case here..
wipe it all down, and replace the flies, as you were doing. check the drain line from the airbox, and the plastic collector bottle at the bottom, down on the left, by the idle adjuster screw, and tank drain..
and If in fact you were running a K&N filter, that was over oiled, stop using so much oil on it... go back to a factory airfilter for the next 20k miles, and re check.
not much to say, just from one poor photo, and a description like this...
has nothing to do with the cam chain tensioner either.... check the drain line and empty it, and blow air down thru it from the top, and re cap the bottom..( it can't really suck air back up, if it's capped.).
I guess reading the second response to your posting, and following the logic.... simply wasn't satisfying, or worth reading...
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :banghead: :banghead: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :deadhorse: :rotflmao: :thumbs:
glad it all "worked out", in the end...... :finger_fing11: :finger_fing11: :chugbeer:
This is what happens when someone thinks they know what they are doing and does something that actually causes problems....
..... so I assumed the engine was due for a Sea Foam soak treatment and additive to the gas. This smart guy forgot that a month ago, I pulled the air filter and, wait for it, emptied a can of Sea Foam aerosol into the manifold. I knew there was a drain hose, but didn't know the collector down by the shifter has a cap on it! The collector and hose were full of a fluid that was less viscous than oil. Duh. The Sea Foam that didn't get sucked into the intake had filled the hose and was still sitting in the manifold to make the "lake" in my pictures.
I've sufficiently chastised myself for rushing through the foaming. If you all hadn't persisted in poking at a story that didn't add up, I never would have kept looking at the problem. THANK YOU!
oh, and I would NEVER recommend spaying a can of SeaFoam, Into the airbox, or even into the air intake venturies on this model... it simply doesn't do anything other than clean the throttle plates, or the intake path, but it can result in damages $$$ far above any benefit. Dumping stuff in fuel, maybe, as it goes thru the injectors, but even then, anything it's cleaning is kinda minimal.
good job, carry on, and ride safe... (and don't spray stuff where it doesn't belong ;) )