Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: gtr1000 on October 14, 2012, 05:26:07 AM
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I've always done the bearing adjustment by slackening the top fork clamps, handlebar clamps and big triple tree nut but my question is, can the adjsutment be done by slackening just the big nut AND lower fork clamps, thereby leaving the top clamps and bars in place?
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I see whatyour trying to do, but I don't think you would have adequate access to the lower nut. (to do the adjustment).
Plus, I think the adjustment nut is so tight against the upper Tripple Tree that the nut will not turn.
Ride safe, Ted
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Actually if you read the factory Service Manual you will see that loosing the lower clamps IS their preferred method but with that being said and without getting into a lengthy pro & con very few of us do it that way. Speaking only for myself I simply find it easier to loosen up the top hardware to make these adjustments. Plus in my opinion that loosening the upper allows the pre-existing steering geometry to remain unchanged as the lower bearing under use will always remain pre-loaded from contact with the road and thusly the upper bearing will always have the slack.
While I feel that either method works without issue I will add this: Do a Google Search on this subject and let us know the majority results...
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Is there a link to this proceedure?
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Is there a link to this procedure?
Sorry I don't but; if you don't have a Service Manual that absolute best advise I can give in owning and maintaining a bike is for you to GET ONE...
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Always loosen the lower triple clamp. This moves the stem, lower race and bearing up to the inner race without moving the forks.
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Sorry I don't but; if you don't have a Service Manual that absolute best advise I can give in owning and maintaining a bike is for you to GET ONE...
I have the service manual. I was refering to your earlier post talking about the difference between the "book" way and the real world.
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I thought this subject might get conflicting ways of adjustment. T Cro has one way and Cholla has another :-\.
So if I've always loosened the top triple clamps, what's the pros and cons for each method?
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My way (factory) the forks remain staionary in their clamps. The only thing moving is the lower clamp with the stem and bearing. Doing it the other way moves the forks higher in the clamps and changes steering geometry.
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Thanks Cholla. All makes perfect sense. So in effect, you're "moving" (by a few thou) the lower triple towards the "fixed" upper triple.
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My way (factory) the forks remain staionary in their clamps. The only thing moving is the lower clamp with the stem and bearing. Doing it the other way moves the forks higher in the clamps and changes steering geometry.
Cholla's and the books method does change the geometry of the forks. We have had this discussion before and I thought I was very clear explaining why this is.I guess I failed to convince some people. That facts are still the same. The lower tripple tree with the stem and lower bearing is already pressed together up into the goose neck from the weight of the bike, it cannot move up or down. Loosen the top clamps /tripple tree only and remove it from the bike. Did the bike drop? No. did the bike rise up? No. The relationship to the ground is exactly the same.
Install the top plate, tighten the stem nut, the plate will move down lower on the fork tubes and this is how the stem bearings will get tight (more fork tube will now be above the tripple tree. Now tighten the upper clamps Did the bike rise up or drop down? No. It is exactly the same relationship from the goose neck to the ground as when you started . Also the distance of the fork measured from the wheel Axel up to the bottom of the tipple tree is exactly the same.
The only thing that has changed is you now have a tight stem bearing and a little bit of the top of the forks is more exposed. Doing it the other way when you tighten the large stem nut bearing force or pressure that will will push that small ' top of the forks exposed' part downward raising the bike up. The forks are a tiny bit longer now (as measured from the bottom of the lower triple tree to the bottom of the fork) and the bike is now taller.
One thing to note, this is such a miniscule of a change it really doesnt matter which way you do it. I just choose the easy way, to take the top off.
If you understand the above, then ponder this: What happens if you only loosen the bottom clamps and remove the top nut? Hint: Don't do it unless you have a jack under the front of the bike.
Now, what happens if you only loosen the top clamps and remove the nut? Hint: you wont need the jack.
Please tell me you understand this concept.
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Please tell me you understand this concept.
Sure do :).
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Sure do :).
problem is, that Cholla the arena dweller doesn't seem to understand it...and he vehemently argued with Mike and I a few months back......
follow Mikes procedure. I prefer to pull the bars, and the top tree off to insure the correct compression on the bearings...then there is no chance of the top tree messing up the procedure...it's all easy, and only takes a few minutes.
oh, I might add, that if you have never lubed or inspected the bearings.....it might be a good time to get intimate, instead of just tightening them up.....grease is good....and makes them last....... ;)
no grease makes them look like this
(http://thumb13.webshots.net/t/20/21/4/10/46/236141046MtTMOW_th.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1236141046015463693MtTMOW)
(http://thumb13.webshots.net/t/20/20/4/10/82/236141082XyxzUj_th.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1236141082015463693XyxzUj)
(http://thumb13.webshots.net/t/18/19/4/11/46/236141146MHBIYb_th.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1236141146015463693MHBIYb)
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MOB, is that the lower bearing?
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MOB, is that the lower bearing?
Yes, that rusty bearing is the lower.
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I tried to adjust the stem end play according to the book, loosened the bottom triple tree, followed the instructions and broke the tip off my adjusting tool. Tightened the bottom tree and removed the top clamp to see what was going on, adjusted it now (after I welded a new tip on the adj tool). As the discussion mentioned, the movement is so small that I don't think it makes any difference. I like doing it with the top removed as in the end it is so much easier to adjust with the locking tab removed from the adjusting nut.
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Yes, that rusty bearing is the lower.
Wow, I guess I will be looking at mine when I get to the front end work I am going to do. I will soon get a new tire so I have to mount it. I am also going to install some new Sonic Springs I got from someone here (thanks Ted), and I am going to install some drain plugs on the fork, so while I have it apart I may as well go thru the bearings too. What grease is used for this?
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Iwith the locking tab removed from the adjusting nut.
I feel I may have cocked up with mine when adjusting from the top then. Pray tell, what's this locking tab ?
:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
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The locking tab sits on top of the locking nut under the top plate covering 2 of the easiest to get to notches in the 4 notches available. When I took the top plate off I discovered it's center was round so it could move when the adjusting nut was turned. How it works is a bit of a puzzle, I guess when the top nut is tightened the fingers push down to keep the locking nut from turning.
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The locking tab sits on top of the locking nut under the top plate covering 2 of the easiest to get to notches in the 4 notches available. When I took the top plate off I discovered it's center was round so it could move when the adjusting nut was turned. How it works is a bit of a puzzle, I guess when the top nut is tightened the fingers push down to keep the locking nut from turning.
Thanks for that. So the locking tab tab doesn't have to be removed (or the tabs bent back) when adjusting the bearings as loosening the lock nut frees it up?
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((How it works is a bit of a puzzle, I guess when the top nut is tightened the fingers push down to keep the locking nut from turning)).
Correct. Top nut must be loosened/removed to adjust the Head bearings.
Ride safe, Ted
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Thanks for that. So the locking tab tab doesn't have to be removed (or the tabs bent back) when adjusting the bearings as loosening the lock nut frees it up?
No need to remove the lock ring or bend tabs. But, as mentioned, the lock ring does prevent access to 2 of the 4 available notches for your tool to grab into.
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I am going to install some drain plugs on the fork, so while I have it apart I may as well go thru the bearings too.
Normally just plain old wheel bearing grease. I am sure others will chime in with better grease recommendations.
I use a clear synthetic grease on mine.
Why install drain plugs. Your bike has them already. It is the emulsion tube bolts ( fork cylinder ). Just use an air impact or electric impact gun to remove and install them ( I think it is a 10mm hex bolt). Very fast and easy but you need to pull the springs out to do it.
See part # 92001
http://tinyurl.com/3gada8z (http://tinyurl.com/3gada8z)
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Maybe, but if I had the drain tubes I wouldn't have to take anything off, well, almost anything. Like this: http://www.cog-online.org/clubportal/clubstatic.cfm?clubID=1328&pubmenuoptID=30800 (http://www.cog-online.org/clubportal/clubstatic.cfm?clubID=1328&pubmenuoptID=30800)
So if I take apart the front end to include looking at the bearings, should just plan on replacing them just for grits and shins?
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I would. You will need some tools that you may not have laying around. I did it without any of the Kaw specific tools, but I did use a bearing race driver (I wouldn't reccomend the hammer driven one like I used) and a HF bearing puller for the lower bearing. It was necessary to remove (destroy) the outer cage and rollers from the lower bearing for the tool to be able to grab. The steering stops prevent the HF tool from getting under the bearing the way it is intended to. To remove the lower race, I used a big tire iron (also Harbor Freight). It had a good bend in it to get around the "shelf" in the bottom of the steering tube. Inserting the lower bearing, the handle from a Craftsman jack was perfertly sized.
http://www.harborfreight.com/bearing-separator-and-puller-set-93980.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/bearing-separator-and-puller-set-93980.html)
http://www.harborfreight.com/24-inch-general-purpose-tire-iron-93230.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/24-inch-general-purpose-tire-iron-93230.html)
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I have this one:
http://www.powersportsplace.com/parts/ptm-pp2782/media/images (http://www.powersportsplace.com/parts/ptm-pp2782/media/images)
but this one looks way better: Tool is pulled through the steering tube until the flared ends snap in behind the race.
http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/p/44/54/280/1056/-/13986/Park-Tool-USA-Steering-Race-Remover (http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/p/44/54/280/1056/-/13986/Park-Tool-USA-Steering-Race-Remover)
You need this to set the races. You could use a threaded rod and convert this into a press but I did not see any need. It puts the race in nice and straight if your careful
http://www.harborfreight.com/10-piece-bearing-race-and-seal-driver-set-95853.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/10-piece-bearing-race-and-seal-driver-set-95853.html)
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I have this one:
http://www.powersportsplace.com/parts/ptm-pp2782/media/images (http://www.powersportsplace.com/parts/ptm-pp2782/media/images)
but this one looks way better: Tool is pulled through the steering tube until the flared ends snap in behind the race.
http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/p/44/54/280/1056/-/13986/Park-Tool-USA-Steering-Race-Remover (http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/p/44/54/280/1056/-/13986/Park-Tool-USA-Steering-Race-Remover)
You need this to set the races. You could use a threaded rod and convert this into a press but I did not see any need. It puts the race in nice and straight if your careful
http://www.harborfreight.com/10-piece-bearing-race-and-seal-driver-set-95853.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/10-piece-bearing-race-and-seal-driver-set-95853.html)
Mike, Do you know if the flared tool is flared enough to get to the lower race, anyone here tried it? It does look simple and effective if it will work on our bikes. I used a similar race driver ("free" rental from O'Riely Auto), but think a threaded press type would have been better. My races started out crooked and it was difficult to drive them in straight, especially from below. It worked, I just think the threaded ones would be more accurate.
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I have been looking at the Concours pdf manual. I find I am having a hard time trying to figure out what they are doing. I am a picture kind of guy and what they have there pretty much sucks, so maybe y'all can help me out here.
You need a tool like this one (http://www.powersportsplace.com/parts/ptm-pp2782/media/images (http://www.powersportsplace.com/parts/ptm-pp2782/media/images)) to remove the lower outer race. What about the upper?
There is also the lower inner race on the steering stem. How to get that one off?
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You can use the same tool on the upper race, or a long drift pin or punch from below. The lower race is the tricky one due to the increase in diameter of the steering tube right at the race, it makes the edge of the race tough to grab. The lower race on the steering head is a friction fit, thats the one I used the HF bearing puller I linked previously to remove.
http://www.harborfreight.com/bearing-separator-and-puller-set-93980.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/bearing-separator-and-puller-set-93980.html)
In order to be able to use the tool. I had to remove the outer cage and rollers from the assembly, and the tool was able to grab the lip at the top of the remaining race. On page 3 of this thread I have some pics of what I had to do for the lower bearing specifically http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=9891.15 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=9891.15)
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Mike, Do you know if the flared tool is flared enough to get to the lower race, anyone here tried it? It does look simple and effective if it will work on our bikes. I used a similar race driver ("free" rental from O'Riely Auto), but think a threaded press type would have been better. My races started out crooked and it was difficult to drive them in straight, especially from below. It worked, I just think the threaded ones would be more accurate.
If you are asking about the fixed "cup" portion, the lower can't be popped out with that "spead tube" type tool, there isn't sufficient exposed surface for it to work.
The factory tool uses a small blade like anuallar chisel edge on a split shaft, which wedges into the groove that exists only due to the radiused edge on the i.d. of the face and the i.d. of the cup , which is the same diameter as the head tube's bore unfortunatly.
if you have access to a mig welder, you can take a big washer. and weld it in the conical area of the cup from below, and use a drift from the top, same but opposite for the top cup.
the factory tools, and methods with photos for replacing both, are in an artical I wrote for the Concourier, entitled "Shake, Rattle, & Roll", and can be found in the COG online Concourier library.
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Do you know which version of the Concourier it is in?
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SPRING 07' ?
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Cool, thanks.
Does anybody have an idea what the cost for the dealer to do the bearing? I am just curious as I already know I wouldn't have the money for it but I am interested in the savings.
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Cool, thanks.
Does anybody have an idea what the cost for the dealer to do the bearing? I am just curious as I already know I wouldn't have the money for it but I am interested in the savings.
One Kawasaki dealer here said that nothing ever goes wrong and they never need adjusting.
Hmm.. that tells me they either don't want to do it or don't know how to do it.
Maybe that is why they went under and closed.
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Just the way money is right now I am probably not going to try and replace my bearings. Besides the money I also really have no problem with that part of my steering. What I have a problem is with my spring which I have a replacement for. I will have to buy a tool to tighten it but I really can't afford right now to buy the bearing, a bearing puller and Driver. So I will open it up and clean and re-lube them.
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Just the way money is right now I am probably not going to try and replace my bearings. Besides the money I also really have no problem with that part of my steering. What I have a problem is with my spring which I have a replacement for. I will have to buy a tool to tighten it but I really can't afford right now to buy the bearing, a bearing puller and Driver. So I will open it up and clean and re-lube them.
I get the money thing, all of us do. The bearing can be had from Murph for $36.50, the driver can be rented for "free" from most retail auto parts places, and some of the better places may also have the puller. Not proud of this, but I bought the puller from HF, gently used it, repackaged it and returned it. No questions asked.
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That is just naughty ;)