Author Topic: Unbeliveably ironic  (Read 14967 times)

Offline gPink

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2017, 01:07:10 PM »
Just a couple of "civil" war facts.
About 6% of Southerners owned slaves; about 3% owned almost all of the slaves. While slavery was a factor in the war, it wasn't THE cause for the war.

Regarding removing symbols that honor Confederate generals/soldiers/politicians, this would have effects other than just removing a few statues. In our part of the state (Texas), I can name a quick few:
1. Hood County, named for General John Bell Hood.
2. In that county is the town of Granbury, named for General Hyram Bronson Granbury.
3. Nearby town of Cleburne is named for General Patrick Ronayne Cleburne.
4. Cleburne is in Johnson County, named for Middleton Tate Johnson who was a member of the Sucession Convention and was regimental commander in the Confederate Army (he raised the Fourteenth Texas Cavalry Regiment).

These are but a few within just a few miles of each other. Are we to rename all of the counties and towns/cities that have a link to the Confederate side of the war? Or, can we just accept our history, remember it for what it is, and move forward to see that such things are not repeated?

WE, as in Society, are not that smart. And WE, as in Society, allow ourselves to be manipulated by people who do not have our best interests at heart. Until there is a massive shift in public awareness and thinking the answer to your question is a resounding NO.

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2017, 01:32:23 PM »
I totally agree with that opinion, Gary.  Someone in the public eye is going to have to say no, we ain't gonna do it.  Get over it.  We're not renaming a bazillion things just to be PC.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2017, 01:59:51 PM »
Ah, Sam Houston: a patriot, a statesman, a man with a cast- iron will, and a man who would not only try but actually do 'the right thing' even at his own personal loss of position, finance and at the risk of his very life and limb. A true American hero who is not better appreciated and I have no idea as to why that is so.

As a US Senator from the State of Texas, he would and did oppose any actions that would endanger the Union, be those threats from the North OR from the South (nullifiers):

"Whatever is calculated to weaken or impair the strength of [the] Union,—whether originating at the North or the South,—whether arising from the incendiary violence of abolitionists, or from the coalition of nullifiers, will never meet with my unqualified approval."

For the greater good, not only for his beloved state (and previous Republic- Texas was a country for a while, and Sam Houston was a President of that country, as well as the Governor of TX when it succeeded from the Union) but for all of The United States, yes, Sam Huston both refused to take an oath as Governor to join the Confederacy (after Texas had already succeed from the Union via  the legislature). He was forced from the Governorship of TX by the legislature who had already voted to secede from the Union and said this after his ousting:

"Fellow-Citizens, in the name of your rights and liberties, which I believe have been trampled upon, I refuse to take this oath. In the name of the nationality of Texas, which has been betrayed by the Convention, I refuse to take this oath. In the name of the Constitution of Texas, I refuse to take this oath. In the name of my own conscience and manhood, which this Convention would degrade by dragging me before it, to pander to the malice of my enemies, I refuse to take this oath. I deny the power of this Convention to speak for Texas....I protest....against all the acts and doings of this convention and I declare them null and void."

But I think his true genius as well as his practical political insight is shown in the speech he gave after leaving (being forced from actually) office as Governor of Texas due to its succession. Remember, at the time, the secession of the various southern states was thought by most, and all in political office I think, to be a minor issue that could be easily and readily corrected with nothing much more than a skirmish or two; the swatting of a pesky fly. A. Lincoln called for volunteers to put down this insurrection, many months later, with a 90 day enlistment: few believed it would be a significant conflict. One was William Tecumseh Sherman, who was dismissed from the US Army under suspicion of being insane when he predicted a long and costly war. Another was Sam Houston who said this in a speech given from a hotel window, traveling after leaving the governorship of TX, on 19 April, 1861, five months before the first 'skirmish' of the Civil War at Bull Run:

"Let me tell you what is coming. After the sacrifice of countless millions of treasure and hundreds of thousands of lives, you may win Southern independence if God be not against you, but I doubt it. I tell you that, while I believe with you in the doctrine of states rights, the North is determined to preserve this Union. They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates. But when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche; and what I fear is, they will overwhelm the South."

The man saw very clearly what almost no one else did, exactly what was coming and why it should have been avoided. And what he predicted is exactly what happened though he would not live to see it happen. Just as well probably.

Engraved on his tombstone:

The inscription on his tomb reads:

A Brave Soldier. A Fearless Statesman.
A Great Orator—A Pure Patriot.
A Faithful Friend, A Loyal Citizen.
A Devoted Husband and Father.
A Consistent Christian—An Honest Man.

I cannot think of a modern historical figure I would more like to meet or spend a few minutes in the presence of than this gentleman.

Brian


<snip>

What strikes me as strange is the consternation about the Sam Houston statue in Houston.   He refused to swear allegiance to the Confederacy yet the Confederate supporters are rallying around keeping the statue intact.  From what I know he had very little to do with the Confederacy although he did refuse Federal assistance to put down the Confederate rebellion in Texas.  From what I read he's an all American true hero and is above the fray about the angst against southern memorials.  If there is talk about removing his memorials and statues because they think he was for the Confederacy they're a bunch of fidiots.  What else are they going to do, rename Houston?
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2017, 02:02:12 PM »
As I said, what we have here in the US is far worse than discrimination, it is the total inability to state facts or simply tell the truth. With restrictions such as these, how can we possibly progress?

Brian

Positive discrimination is just as bad as negative discrimination.

Actually if it's government endorsed then IMHO it's worse
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2017, 02:12:52 PM »
Wow!  Did you know that Sam Houston was born in Virginia near Lexington!  Now I want to read his biography and learn more about him.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2017, 03:15:16 PM »
What struck me about your last post, that I responded too, was the fact that you quoted the Gov. of VA.

I was kinda just commenting on the event itself, how it was mostly outsiders who came to make trouble.  Wasn't about the photograph or anything you said.

Quote
You can say whatever you want. I can say whatever I want. He may be able to say whatever he wants but he certainly cannot do whatever he wants. He is the 'them' that the Constitution protects all of 'us' from in the first place, and regardless of what he thinks, wants or hopes, he cannot actually do any number of things, one of which is to prevent the assembly of the people. Now, suspending an assembly that is already underway I think is w/in his power and abilities if that assembly has turned so violent that it represents a thread to the public safety, which certainly seemed to be the case here (the Constitution is NOT a suicide pact after all) but those rights must be restored as soon as practical or again, he would be over- stepping his power.

OK, now I see your comments were more about him, not about anything I said.  He does have the power to shut down a protest if it turns violent or if safeguards were not in place to make sure it could be handled if it became violent.  I can't speak for the Governor, but I don't think he was implying that it should never have been allowed.

Quote
So you are correct that you did not say anything directly that suggested you wanted to infringe on anyone's rights, but by quoting the Gov., who I think may be infringing on some rights, and seems bent politically to do so, and then stating that you agreed with him on at least two specific points, I took it as general support for the man and his policies. If this is wrong, then we are not in conflict in this area. But as I said, I strongly and absolutely resist those in political office who seem to forget how things must work as they cast their views of 'right' onto all of us and downcast any who are not do not 'think correctly'.

OK, no prob.  I didn't read what he said the same way you did.  And I would NEVER agree with someone trying to silence free speech or peaceful assembly :)
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2017, 03:25:47 PM »
They werent immortalized as winners. They were immortalized for standing up for the cause. There cause was NOT slavery.
By eliminating these monuments we are doomed to forget history and setting up for failure.

And that is how I tend to feel about it.  The "South" was wrong, but so was the entire WORLD at some point in time.  Some of those statues represent people who also did lots of good things, had good character, or did significant things in history.  Trying to erase history is not a good idea.  I can understand some people [usually those of lesser education] would find Confederate-related statues offensive.  But would those same people want to take down statues of the founding fathers who also just happened to have slaves?  Better remove George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Hancock, Patrick Henry, James Madison, Benjamin Franklin, and lots of others from all currency, portraits, topple all their statues, and rename all the places named for them.  Until some point in time, slavery was the norm in the entire country and remained so for a long time.  Slavery wasn't even abolished in the UK until 1833, 57 years after the USA was born.

So I support the right of people to vote to remove the statue from public property, but I think removing it is the wrong thing to do and just panders to the never-ending escalation of the "PC" society.  There are a lot of things out there that offend ME.  And and I sure, like most European Americans, I can look back into MY history and find my relatives enslaved.  So what?  I don't want special treatment.  I don't want "reparations."  I don't want to erase that history.  I prefer to live in the NOW and look back thinking just how lucky we all are... especially to live in such a great country.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2017, 03:39:14 PM »
As far as the resurgence in the Confederate side of things (and in saying this my ancestors fought on the Confederate side), we lost and need to get over it.  It's been over a hundred years since that war was fought.

But there is the key.  "WE" didn't lose anything.  None of us were alive!  I am a Virginian, I was born in the Mid-Atlantic,  I attended an integrated school, I am even currently a minority in the city where I live!  The "South" was a "they", not a we.  Personally, I don't consider myself "Southern", and never did, anymore than I would consider myself a "Colonist" or a British subject, or anything else from what I think of as the ancient past.  It is what we do now that matters.

Quote
It's over and done with and I'm quite happy we're still a somewhat unified nation.  I don't hold a grudge against GB for the War of 1812 or the oppression of the Colonies.

Exactly
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2017, 04:07:52 PM »
I knew he was born in VA but not where specifically.

Sam Houston was a remarkable human and unless an author was completely incompetent and perhaps not familiar with the English language, I cannot believe any biography about him would not be utterly fascinating. And yet again, I have no idea why but he is just not an American icon as I think he should be.

Another favorite of mine, and a Southerner, is Andrew Jackson. Not a man without flaws, some quite serious, he is nevertheless a stand-out individual and again, a fascinating man. Of all he did and all he accomplished, he was most proud of his service as a General in the War of 1812, and in fact, insisted on being addressed as 'General Jackson' even during his Presidency. Nicknamed Old Hickory due to his toughness, he arrived at the White House with a couple of balls still in him from duels. A hard man, he would tolerate no insolence and was insistent on settling matters of honor with a pistol in a duel; during his Presidency, he nearly beat a would- be assassin to death with his cane after the attacker's pistols failed to fire (serves the idiot right, two misfires in one day!), the only thing saving the attacker was Jackson's people pulling the President, er excuse me, the General off of him. Routinely condemned for the debacle that came to be known as the 'Trail of Tears', in which he is said to have responded to a Supreme Court ruling with "John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!", that is erroneous and unjustly condemns the man IMO. The truth is more complex, as life often is. Andrew Jackson was President during the shameful 'Trail of Tears' borne by the Cherokee Indians of the South, mostly Georgia and the Carolinas.

But my favorite part of Andrew Jackson's life can be summed up with the oft quoted exchange between two servants, present at his death bed: the first asks the second "Do you think General Jackson is in heaven?" to which the second responds: 'if General Jackson wants to go to heaven, who would stop him?'. I could not ask for more, nor do I expect as much, when I die. Another American icon and hero, though not without the often found flaws and warts. Still, an amazing man IMO and well worth learning about.

Brian

Wow!  Did you know that Sam Houston was born in Virginia near Lexington!  Now I want to read his biography and learn more about him.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2017, 05:07:26 PM »
A perfect video for the current flavor of the discussion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiU20QjKPCo
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2017, 05:12:47 PM »
But there is the key.  "WE" didn't lose anything.  None of us were alive!  I am a Virginian, I was born in the Mid-Atlantic,  I attended an integrated school, I am even currently a minority in the city where I live!  The "South" was a "they", not a we.  Personally, I don't consider myself "Southern", and never did, anymore than I would consider myself a "Colonist" or a British subject, or anything else from what I think of as the ancient past.  It is what we do now that matters.

Exactly

Good point.  I also attended an integrated school but when it first happened in 1969 in VA.  But I do consider myself 'Southern' and English.  I have to consider myself something.  I grew up moving all over the place (Dad in AF) so really I consider myself both English and Southern at the same time.  I'm proud of my origins on both sides. 
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Offline gPink

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2017, 06:39:35 PM »
A perfect video for the current flavor of the discussion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiU20QjKPCo
Sorry Max, Georgie boy has no credibility other than that which he assigns himself. He believes himself to be such a pure conservative that he felt the need to support the communist democrat in the 2016 election rather than the insurgent Trump.

corrected my dumass typing
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 11:01:51 AM by gPink »

Offline maxtog

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2017, 08:38:58 PM »
Sorry Jim, Georgie boy has no credibility other than that which he assigns himself. He believes himself to be such a pure conservative that he felt the need to support the communist democrat in the 2016 election rather than the insurgent Trump.

I don't know anything about all that, just that the video is pertinent.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2017, 05:44:38 AM »
Sorry Jim, Georgie boy has no credibility other than that which he assigns himself. He believes himself to be such a pure conservative that he felt the need to support the communist democrat in the 2016 election rather than the insurgent Trump.

Huh?
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2017, 07:35:36 AM »
Yeah, I am suffering from the 'huh?' condition also. All over the place on this site.

Gettin' old sux Ron. It is Ron, right?

[soon enough I may not be making a joke when I do that]

Brian

Huh?
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Offline Conrad

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2017, 08:23:08 AM »
Sorry Jim, Georgie boy has no credibility other than that which he assigns himself. He believes himself to be such a pure conservative that he felt the need to support the communist democrat in the 2016 election rather than the insurgent Trump.

Say what? You don't give up do you G?
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Offline gPink

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2017, 09:10:41 AM »
Are you saying the candidate was not a democrat?

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2017, 09:22:53 AM »
Gary, you included a quote from Max, and used my name...hence the huh?
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2017, 10:11:13 AM »
Yeah, that is it. Nice job Jim, and add to that I think the Georgie he was referring to is George Will and the knot is unraveled.

Not that it makes any difference but I do not remember Will supporting Ms. Clinton but only decided to NOT support Mr. Trump. He left the Republican part over it and now identifies as Independent, again IIRC.

But while all of this was getting kicked around in this thread, some anti- Confederate folks knocked down a Confederate statue in Durham, NC, while no one was looking.

http://www.nbc12.com/story/36134625/group-of-protesters-knock-down-confederate-statue-in-durham

So after all of this serious talk, I have to point out a couple of things: 1) Law enforcement sprayed that statue with cooking spray to try and prevent protesters from getting a grip on it. Judging by the results, that ain't gonna' make any Pam commercials in the near future.  :rotflmao: 2 times. and 2) Of all the people there, look who they chose to send up that ladder. ?? ?? ?? Not who I would have picked personally but hey.... Now that may show up on a ladder commercial at some point in the future, I can even imagine the tag- line: "When angry mobs need a ladder they can count on, those in Durham, NC, choose 'Blimpie' brand ladders 'cause they can really stand up to the abuse. And easily shed spills from things commonly found around ladders, such as anti- stick cooking spray. Blimpie, the clear choice in high load bearing, lubricant resistant ladders for unruly mobs everywhere'.

:-)

Brian

P.S. Mike, this is a clear example of what one cannot say in America any longer. In fact, I expect a large (hehehe) group of 'gravitationally challenged' people to be at my house tonight, waving pitchforks and torches and demanding "the insensitive one's" hide.

Gary, you included a quote from Max, and used my name...hence the huh?
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Unbeliveably ironic
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2017, 10:30:34 AM »
That's illegal and they should have been arrested and charged.   All this does is make things worse.
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