Flashing headlights/freedom of speech

[bbroj]

I'd have to go back and re-read the story, but I thought it was a second LEO who saw the lights and wrote the ticket. Either way, I'm mostly with Jim, although I will try to warn motorcyclists, sometimes...(not squids)

[snarf]

So if I meet a LEO while on my bike and proceed to pat the top of my helmet; is that illegal?

[VirginiaJim]

It's the same thing I guess.  Some of these statutes don't specify headlight flashing, head patting, arm waving, nose picking as far as what's considered interference with a LEO.  If they want to stop you for warning (using any technique) oncoming drivers they can do what they want regarding writing a ticket.  It's then up to the courts to decide whether or not it's a valid stop/ticket whatever.  You can stomp up and down and yell at the Gods it ain't right, but it still comes down to what the courts decide in interpreting the law in the end.  Oh, and having a very good lawyer helps as well.

[rcannon409]

For me, its all abotu the time and place the speed trap is being ran. In a school zone, no problem. Anyone over 20 should get the ticket.  There is a section, near my house, that runs through a National Guard airfiled. The road has 12 foot fences on each side, and no entrance or exit for several miles. Speed limit is 30. The LEO's use this area as a revenue generator or tax on working people. I always warn people here.

[cmoore]

In Texas they use radar all the time everywhere. When I lived in Dallas you couldn't go anywhere without a cop sticking a radar gun up your ass. I got sick of it. I also flashed my lights all the time to warn people about the traps. It's all about revenue and has nothing to do with safety.

[badcop621]

I`m a LEO here in VA and I have written that ticket several times and will continue to write for it. Most of the time its when I come upon an area where another LEO in running radar and I get flashed by the people trying to warn me. VA law states that the only vehicles that are allowed to have flashing headlights are law enforcement and Marked Fire/Rescue vehicles.

I`ve had people to tell me that that they weren`t flashing their lights when I clearly saw them. I then tell them that since they weren`t flashing them, there`s obviously a mechanical problem with their wiring or switch causing them to flash. Then I write them a defective equipment ticket also and tell them to take it to a shop to get it repaired and bring proof to court. Its funny how most of them headlights ONLY seem to flash on their own right after the pass a Police car running radar.

Also Cholla,  how is running Radar an Unlawful search?? Never heard that one before

[bbroj]

To me, it seems like "flashing headlights", as in a wired option like modulators or emergency vehicle lights, is different than "flashing your lights" by manually using the controller. I would argue that one in court if it came to it. If that is not the case, I could theoretically be ticketed for the occasional flash of my brights when going for my turn signal or wipers on the same control handle. I'm with the freedom of speech crowd. Would you write the ticket for someone flashing oncoming drivers to warn of an accident/debris ahead? It's communication, nothing more.

[MAN OF BLUES]

I`m a LEO here in VA and I have written that ticket several times and will continue to write for it. Most of the time its when I come upon an area where another LEO in running radar and I get flashed by the people trying to warn me. VA law states that the only vehicles that are allowed to have flashing headlights are law enforcement and Marked Fire/Rescue vehicles. I`ve had people to tell me that that they weren`t flashing their lights when I clearly saw them. I then tell them that since they weren`t flashing them, there`s obviously a mechanical problem with their wiring or switch causing them to flash. Then I write them a defective equipment ticket also and tell them to take it to a shop to get it repaired and bring proof to court. Its funny how most of them headlights ONLY seem to flash on their own right after the pass a Police car running radar.

Also Cholla,  how is running Radar an Unlawful search?? Never heard that one before

hmmmmm.... very interesting interpretation of the statute.... as a Virginia resident, and avid motorcyclist, I hope never to meet you on the road, lest we all will be in court with Tom McGrath, Va. motorcycle lawyer, and get "things" clarified....."

I do believe the law is regarding "alternatly" (i.e. left/right) flashing headlights, and I know that headlight modulators here in Va ARE legal...any difference?
Motorcycles may be equipped with means of modulating the high beam of their headlights between high and low beam at a rate of 200 to 280 flashes per minute. Such headlights shall not be so modulated during periods when headlights would ordinarily be required to be lighted under § 46.2-1030.

also...ever ticket someone for tail light flashing???
Comment: Our office has in the past received calls from motorcyclists who were pulled over due to the fact that they have a modulating headlight. Modulating headlights are legal in Virginia so long as they comply with this statute. As of July 1, 2009 modulating brake lights are legal in Virginia as well so long as they do not modulate for a period exceeding 5 seconds, which most do not.
Turning light off/on I would construe as a "warning", but flashing from low to high beam on a vehical that always is running lights (cannot turn off) is a stretch of the law again, anyone can issue a "road warning", a greting to a person you know", a "highbeam flash" to alert a motorist you intend to pass, or simply because you wish to flash them. I would gladly challenge that in court, the trouble is that the fine is not commensurate with the costs and effort someone would incurr attempting to fight it. Apathetic aquiessence in effect.
so I think daytime flashing is ok....but flashing at night is another thing...illegal?
sad to hear someone would actually slap a ticket for that reason.... bad cop...no donut.

http://www.motorcyclevirginia.com/statutes.aspx


http://www.motorcyclevirginia.com/home.aspx

[B.D.F.]

Yes, that is the real question- where does the legal communication end? Can we talk to each other and say that there is a LEO on 'such and such' a road or would that too be an illegal communication? Can we talk about how fast a particular motorcycle goes or should that too be an illegal communication? Yep, the slippery slope applies here for sure.

Seeing as flashing headlights does not cause any crime to be committed, I would think the courts will have to back the freedom of speech side of things. That said, I agree with you Jim that it will be an interesting thing to watch go through the legal system and see how higher courts comment this issue assuming they issue a finding.

Brian

It's the same thing I guess.  Some of these statutes don't specify headlight flashing, head patting, arm waving, nose picking as far as what's considered interference with a LEO.  If they want to stop you for warning (using any technique) oncoming drivers they can do what they want regarding writing a ticket.  It's then up to the courts to decide whether or not it's a valid stop/ticket whatever.  You can stomp up and down and yell at the Gods it ain't right, but it still comes down to what the courts decide in interpreting the law in the end.  Oh, and having a very good lawyer helps as well.

[SteveJ.]

The agencies writing tickets for "having flashing lights" really do reenforce the idea that it really is about revenue and resume' enhancement. It is really just a cop trying to throw his/her weight around, IMHO. It certainly does nothing to command respect, just resentment. And cops wonder why they get little respect. Duh.

[badcop621]

My post was only pertaining to cars/trucks. There is only one time that drivers are legally Ok to flash their lights and thats when they get behind someone in the left lane that wont get over, and then they can only flash them ONCE. I usually dont write the ticket if they flash only one time(flashing them at someone you know, etc). Its the ones that flash their lights multiple times is the ones I get.



46.2-842.1. Drivers to give way to certain overtaking vehicles on divided highways.

It shall be unlawful to fail to give way to overtaking traffic when driving a motor vehicle to the left and abreast of another motor vehicle on a divided highway. On audible or light signal, the driver of the overtaken vehicle shall move to the right to allow the overtaking vehicle to pass as soon as the overtaken vehicle can safely do so. A violation of this section shall not be construed as negligence per se in any civil action.



46.2-1029.1. Flashing of headlights on certain vehicles.

Emergency vehicles as defined in subsection C of § 46.2-920 may be equipped with the means to flash their headlights when their warning lights are activated if (i) the headlights are wired to allow either the high beam or low beam to flash, but not both, and (ii) the headlight system includes a switch or device which prevents flashing of headlights when headlights are required to be lighted under § 46.2-1030

hmmmmm.... very interesting interpretation of the statute.... as a Virginia resident, and avid motorcyclist, I hope never to meet you on the road, lest we all will be in court with Tom McGrath, Va. motorcycle lawyer, and get "things" clarified....."

I do believe the law is regarding "alternatly" (i.e. left/right) flashing headlights, and I know that headlight modulators here in Va ARE legal...any difference?
Motorcycles may be equipped with means of modulating the high beam of their headlights between high and low beam at a rate of 200 to 280 flashes per minute. Such headlights shall not be so modulated during periods when headlights would ordinarily be required to be lighted under § 46.2-1030.

also...ever ticket someone for tail light flashing???
Comment: Our office has in the past received calls from motorcyclists who were pulled over due to the fact that they have a modulating headlight. Modulating headlights are legal in Virginia so long as they comply with this statute. As of July 1, 2009 modulating brake lights are legal in Virginia as well so long as they do not modulate for a period exceeding 5 seconds, which most do not.
Turning light off/on I would construe as a "warning", but flashing from low to high beam on a vehical that always is running lights (cannot turn off) is a stretch of the law again, anyone can issue a "road warning", a greting to a person you know", a "highbeam flash" to alert a motorist you intend to pass, or simply because you wish to flash them. I would gladly challenge that in court, the trouble is that the fine is not commensurate with the costs and effort someone would incurr attempting to fight it. Apathetic aquiessence in effect.
so I think daytime flashing is ok....but flashing at night is another thing...illegal?
sad to hear someone would actually slap a ticket for that reason.... bad cop...no donut.

http://www.motorcyclevirginia.com/statutes.aspx


http://www.motorcyclevirginia.com/home.aspx

[VirginiaJim]

I`m a LEO here in VA and I have written that ticket several times and will continue to write for it. Most of the time its when I come upon an area where another LEO in running radar and I get flashed by the people trying to warn me. VA law states that the only vehicles that are allowed to have flashing headlights are law enforcement and Marked Fire/Rescue vehicles.

I`ve had people to tell me that that they weren`t flashing their lights when I clearly saw them. I then tell them that since they weren`t flashing them, there`s obviously a mechanical problem with their wiring or switch causing them to flash. Then I write them a defective equipment ticket also and tell them to take it to a shop to get it repaired and bring proof to court. Its funny how most of them headlights ONLY seem to flash on their own right after the pass a Police car running radar.

Also Cholla,  how is running Radar an Unlawful search?? Never heard that one before

While I don't flash my headlights as was stated above, everything I've read concerning VA law on this says it's not illegal.

Here's one article that I've found...

http://www2.staffordcountysun.com/news/2009/jul/21/blankenship_ok_to_warn_of_speed_traps_ahead-ar-292281/

You can and will interpret the law as you see fit.  Nothing wrong with that for the most part, it's gray areas where you may be interpreting a little differently than I would.  That's why we have lawyers and courts to decide such matters.

I can certainly understand how you would feel about the matter, though.

[badcop621]

Excellent post. It's all up to interpretation. Thats what the courts are for. Regardless what's happens in court, whether is upheld or dismissed, I'll continue to write tickets for it. Each situation is different. I agree with the Article below about the "Momentary FLASH of lights" . I just go after the ones that keep on flashing them rapidly.

While I don't flash my headlights as was stated above, everything I've read concerning VA law on this says it's not illegal.

Here's one article that I've found...

http://www2.staffordcountysun.com/news/2009/jul/21/blankenship_ok_to_warn_of_speed_traps_ahead-ar-292281/

You can and will interpret the law as you see fit.  Nothing wrong with that for the most part, it's gray areas where you may be interpreting a little differently than I would.  That's why we have lawyers and courts to decide such matters.

I can certainly understand how you would feel about the matter, though.

[Outback_Jon]

Excellent post. It's all up to interpretation. Thats what the courts are for. Regardless what's happens in court, whether is upheld or dismissed, I'll continue to write tickets for it, even if its to same person 10 mins later for commiting the same offense. Each situation is different.

Really?  Guess your name says it all.

[SteveJ.]

46.2-1029.1. Flashing of headlights on certain vehicles.

Emergency vehicles as defined in subsection C of § 46.2-920 may be equipped with the means to flash their headlights when their warning lights are activated if (i) the headlights are wired to allow either the high beam or low beam to flash, but not both, and (ii) the headlight system includes a switch or device which prevents flashing of headlights when headlights are required to be lighted under § 46.2-1030


According to your interpretation, all motor vehicles with a headlight switch are illegal, as the statute states it's illegal to have the means to flash headlights except for emergency vehicles. So you had best start pulling over every car and truck, whether they are flashing lights or not, to write them a ticket, as virtually all cars and trucks do have an on/off switch. That is why it's bogus for you to write those BS tickets, and either force a day in court, or just pay out money that most people work hard to earn. It comes back to that respect/resentment issue.

****************************************

So keep on writing those BS tickets, cuz you apparently have the power to basically harass. It just lowers the public opinion of police another few notches for each one you write. And shows a lot about what kind of person you have turned out to be.

My .02.

[VirginiaJim]

Mod hat on.....keep this civil, please.  I do love dissension, though, as long as it's opinions thrown back and forth.  Once we resort to name calling it degenerates.

[badcop621]

The code section is from the Code of Virginia and not my interpretation. The code section applies to Emergency Vehicles ONLY and in case you live in a box somewhere, you`ve have to had noticed that police cars, fire trucks, Rescue Squad vehicles have their headlights flashing when their red/blue lights are on. This is not magic by no means. These vehicles are equipped with a special mechanical device to make their lights flash this way. Ordinary off the lot vehicles do not have this device. However, any person, in any vehicle, Not Motorcycle,  can make their lights flash in this manner. This is when the violation of law occurs. The operator is to blame and not the cars fault.

The question that I would then myself would be is "WHY is the operator of this vehicle making his lights flash". Thats when my interpretation comes into play.

While I do agree, that this is not the most violent offense in the world, its still an offense here in Va.

I have heard most things about the police(Harassing people*************), mostly from those who have gotten tickets and think that the law doesnt apply to them.

Police Officers do what they are hired to do, Enforce laws. Some like it, Some dont. Thats Life. We cant make every single person happy in every situation, although I do try.

46.2-1029.1. Flashing of headlights on certain vehicles.

Emergency vehicles as defined in subsection C of § 46.2-920 may be equipped with the means to flash their headlights when their warning lights are activated if (i) the headlights are wired to allow either the high beam or low beam to flash, but not both, and (ii) the headlight system includes a switch or device which prevents flashing of headlights when headlights are required to be lighted under § 46.2-1030


According to your interpretation, all motor vehicles with a headlight switch are illegal, as the statute states it's illegal to have the means to flash headlights except for emergency vehicles. So you had best start pulling over every car and truck, whether they are flashing lights or not, to write them a ticket, as virtually all cars and trucks do have an on/off switch. That is why it's bogus for you to write those BS tickets, and either force a day in court, or just pay out money that most people work hard to earn. It comes back to that respect/resentment issue.

I'm thinkin' it's mostly an ego thing**********************

So keep on writing those BS tickets, cuz you apparently have the power to basically harass. It just lowers the public opinion of police another few notches for each one you write. And shows a lot about what kind of person you have turned out to be.

My .02.

[MAN OF BLUES]

I really have to chuckle about the answers given here from an LEO, while pondering the thoughts of what is actually being done.
First off, the LEO on duty, is out there to enforce current laws, speeding being one of them.
Why do people get arrested for speeding? Because it is dangerous, and causes undue hazard on those driving on the same roads... Ok, I buy that, and have no problem with that reasoning... in fact I can say when you see one of those "speed zone machines" on the side of the road giving a readout of speed, people tend to slow down...mission accomplished.
Also, when an LEO is on the side of the road, VISIBLE, it tends to accomplish this end result also.... people slow down. But I have to say that hiding in wait, in a position of blind opportunity with the intent of specifically ticketing...while hiding in wait, is just sleazy... now someone flashes thier lights and the would be speeder (maybe he's doing 5 mph over, who knows)slows down, IS'NT THIS THE EXACT REASON THE LAW IS BEING ENFORCED???
to maintain safe speeds on the highway?  or is it simply to arrest and ticket those breaking the law?

difficult question? I don't think so, the intent is to have everyone travel at the speed limit....but the activity is only to enforce this when someone breaks the rule, it does nothing to prevent it from being broken.   It would go a lot further towards being succesful in slowing people down to simply be seen, and have a presence.

presence means everything here, don't think so? Watch people slow down when a car is pulled over on the roadside, and as soon as the people realize the LEO is occupied writing a ticket, they all punch it thinking they are free and clear to speed now.... but have a cop sit on the road, just sitting there, watch the caution level for those drivers peak, and speeds reduce "just to make sure" they don't get pinched...

[bbroj]

I'm still confused as to your interpretation. My car is not wired with police style, alternating, flashing lights and therfore not illegal under the code being cited. How does my flashing my lights manually turn them from legal to illegal? If you are claiming "interfering with a police investigation", how? Flashing my lights has no effect on the function of radar or an officers ability to use the radar, therefore I am not interfering with the investigation. I may or may not affect the outcome of the investigation, but I am not interfering with the investigation itself.

[Outback_Jon]

The code section is from the Code of Virginia and not my interpretation. The code section applies to Emergency Vehicles ONLY and in case you live in a box somewhere, you`ve have to had noticed that police cars, fire trucks, Rescue Squad vehicles have their headlights flashing when their red/blue lights are on. This is not magic by no means. These vehicles are equipped with a special mechanical device to make their lights flash this way. Ordinary off the lot vehicles do not have this device. However, any person, in any vehicle, Not Motorcycle,  can make their lights flash in this manner. This is when the violation of law occurs. The operator is to blame and not the cars fault.

EVERY emergency vehicle I have seen with "flashing headlights" has headlights that flash ALTERNATELY.  (Since you're a LEO, too, that means LEFT then RIGHT then LEFT again - I know the big words can be hard  )  Or do a pattern of ALTERNATE and SIMULTANEOUS flash.

The headlights of cars and motorcycles are not wired to do this.  And therefore, it is not a violation of the statute you are claiming.  Quite simply, your interpretation is wrong, as the statute specifies "wiring".

Now, if someone wired a wig-wag onto their civilian car, that is another issue, and one that IS in violation of that statute.

Ask your local DA about it.  I'd bet he/she agrees with me on the interpretation of that statute.  (You may however, be able to cite someone under a different statute.)