Author Topic: C10 EFI Project  (Read 18276 times)

gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #80 on: March 27, 2020, 04:12:21 PM »
The reason I am contemplating changing the injectors is because at low speed first gear the bike is surging. Something like wanting to stall and wanting to race. This happens at minimum throttle, 5-10 MPH.  My hunch is that the injectors are about 40% to big for this motor and the ECU is having trouble providing the correct amount of fuel under these condition. Someone here characterized it as using a fire hose when only a garden hose is needed. Well its not that bad but it does make a difference. The bike runs great on the highway and anytime above 10 MPH. But I think the low end would be a more comfortable ride if I had injectors rated more closely to 1000cc engine. 

I have characterized the flow rate of the Z1000 injectors at 230cc/min That is more inline with the requirements of a 1000 cc motor.
The injector I am using now are 380 cc/min.  I think I will proceed with my plan to use the Z1000 throttle body.

I have also checked the secondary injectors.
So FYI
 injector (EAT250) 396 cc/min (RED)
 injector (EAT287) 380 cc/min (GREEN)
injector (25004Z9)  230 cc/min (ORANGE)
injector Secondary 219cc/min   (little black one)

All the measurements made at 43.5 psi.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 09:01:26 AM by gpineau »

gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #81 on: April 01, 2020, 09:36:44 PM »
Modifying a Z1000 Throttle body to fit on a ZG1000 concours.

The cylinder in-port spacing on the Z1000 is consistent from cylinder to cylinder.
But on a ZG1000 the spacing between 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 are the same however there is an addition 13 mm space between cylinders 2 and 3.

In order to make the throttle body from the Z1000 fit the Concours it is necessary to separate the two halves and insert 13 mm spacing between them.  This involves 12.5 mm spacers between the two halves and an extension of the fuel rail as well as an extension of the throttle linkage between the two halves.

https://youtu.be/nFgQnJeQ0mM
« Last Edit: April 01, 2020, 10:19:34 PM by gpineau »

Offline sport rider

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #82 on: April 02, 2020, 09:24:41 AM »
not such an easy task.... 

Offline connie_rider

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #83 on: April 02, 2020, 09:46:07 AM »
Lookin' good Gpineau.
I like the way you solve at a problem.
ie; Break it down into multiple smaller issues, and then find a solution for each.

Couple of thoughts; {Ok, a few}
 1: Be sure the threads of the screw pass thru the nylon locking material. {on the nut inside your throttle body}
      {If that nut vibrates of, would be a baaaad day}
 2: Is the material you used to lengthen the throttle plate strong e'nuff?
 3: If you damage a C-10 intake boot, I have spares.
 4: With the new injector's will you be going back to an unmodified air box?
        {If so, I have one}

Ride safe, Ted

gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #84 on: April 02, 2020, 10:23:44 AM »
Lookin' good Gpineau.
I like the way you solve at a problem.
ie; Break it down into multiple smaller issues, and then find a solution for each.

Couple of thoughts; {Ok, a few}
 1: Be sure the threads of the screw pass thru the nylon locking material. {on the nut inside your throttle body}
      {If that nut vibrates of, would be a baaaad day}
 2: Is the material you used to lengthen the throttle plate strong e'nuff?
 3: If you damage a C-10 intake boot, I have spares.
 4: With the new injector's will you be going back to an unmodified air box?
        {If so, I have one}

Ride safe, Ted
All good questions.
1. I did make sure the screw was long enough to pass through the nylon part of the nut. no chance it will vibrate off.  But if it ever did   :(

2.  Not sure what you mean. But i will guess your speak of the tab of metal I used to extend the linkage between the the two sets of throttle bodies. Actually the first thing I tried had too much spring to it and I could see that the first set would move slightly before the second set. The solution was a much stiffer steel and I bent a curve into it to increase its stiffness. So it is not flat anymore but is a little dish shaped along its length.  If there is a weak point in all this that would be it.

3.Thanks for  the offer. Hope I don't need them but I may take you up on it . I don't plan to cut all the way through the boot but to use a drimmel with a stone wheel to hollow out just enough material to allow the injector enough room for the spray to  fan out and a straight shot at the intake port.

4. I have some pod filters that I was thinking of using but the rear of the throttle bodies is not round. They are oval and wont easily mate with the filter pods. I did check  the rubber boot on the air-box and they can be stretched to fit the throttle bodies.  So..Yes I will disassemble the mods I made to the air-box and seal it back up and reuse it. There is a port on the bottom of the air-box to vent the crank case that i think is still useful. And the air box is where I mounted the intake air temperature sensor.

Being under a stay at home order makes for a lot of idle time to rethink some things and contemplate on how it could be done better.  I really think my original design works well and  changing to the smaller injectors would solve the issue of surging at low speed. But since I had the throttle body sitting right in front of me I said  "why not?" .   ( I actually purchased the injectors but they came with the throttle body attached...lol)

gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #85 on: April 02, 2020, 10:34:09 AM »
not such an easy task....

In my opinion, none of this was easy but I am having a blast.! Edwards Deming is my hero...."continuous improvement".

Whats easier? modifying a throttle body or cutting up an air-box and mounting injectors inside? Easy is relative.

Your bike is looking good.  You know that beautiful charcoal metal-flake paint job I did on my tank. I'm not sure what was up with the clear coat but I spilled some gasoline on it a week later and it literally melted off. I was heartbroken .  But the new burgundy looks good with the side panels.

gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #86 on: April 02, 2020, 05:08:53 PM »
I think I have a solution for adapting the throttle body to the existing boots.

https://youtu.be/Jomnrn0MhEk


gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #87 on: April 03, 2020, 12:18:49 PM »
Well, it fits..!
I don't have enough four letter words in my vocabulary to describe how difficult this was! Should have been a 30 min job but 4 hours later I finally got it.

Alignment is crucial. But the biggest obstacle was the coolant pipe that is attached to the rear of the head interferes with all 4 boots.  I ended up grinding the side of the boots that faces the coolant pipe nearly flat so I could get the boot on and force a clamp between them.

This is just a test for fit. I will need to construct an new air-box because the stock box will not fit any more without some modifications.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 01:57:12 PM by gpineau »

Offline connie_rider

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #88 on: April 03, 2020, 03:15:51 PM »
Well done.
Suspecting the air box won't work because the throttle bodies are closer to the air box than the carbs?

Ride safe, Ted

gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #89 on: April 03, 2020, 03:21:20 PM »
Well done.
Suspecting the air box won't work because the throttle bodies are closer to the air box than the carbs?

Ride safe, Ted
Your suspensions are right.  I am modifying the airbox now to see what part I can salvage.  It may require a whole new airbox.

And the throttle cables are too short. They need to be about 2 feet longer to cross over and come from underneath. replacements on order.



gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #90 on: April 04, 2020, 08:02:26 AM »
I cut the back off of the air-box but that was not enough. It is the width at the back side of  the box that prevents you from mounting it any further back.  It does not need to be as big as it is. It is a huge box with a small filter and a tiny input port. It looks like it was formed to fill the available space.   

I think I am wasting my time but I am printing a replacement box out of ABS. Its too big to for my printer to handle so I am making it in two pieces. I'll give it a try but I have my eye on an air-box on ebay that will fit. Also there are always filter pods..

Offline connie_rider

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #91 on: April 04, 2020, 10:05:58 AM »
Sounds like a project. I was thinking more of cutting off the front or middle of the box and move it rearward.

Ride safe, Ted

gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #92 on: April 04, 2020, 02:17:26 PM »
Sounds like a project. I was thinking more of cutting off the front or middle of the box and move it rearward.

Ride safe, Ted

That wont work. The filter is in the front. The closest point toward the front that you can cut is at the rear edge of the filter, which I have done. At that point the box is too wide to go back any further. Cant take anything off the sides cause the filter dictates the width.

gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #93 on: April 05, 2020, 07:20:09 PM »
I test fired my new throttle bodies and it ran for a few seconds.  no sensors connected  just injectors and coils and it ran....Woohoo!  The stock air-box will not fit any more since the throttle bodies are a bit longer than the carbs were.  I got some filter pods ordered and on the way. I need to fabricate a bracket to hold the throttle bodies up because I am afraid that with the added weight of the filters they may be pulled from the boots. But it is looking good.

https://youtu.be/DIfKgmlk4u4

gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #94 on: April 10, 2020, 01:48:41 PM »
Connie_rider. You asked about adjusting for altitude. Well I just did it.
Wanted to use the MAP sensor that came with the Kawasaki throttle bodies.
To do this I lifted pin 1 of the existing speeduino MAP sensor and connected the output of the Kawasaki MAP sensor to the pad under the lifted pin.
I picked up power and ground for the sensor at pins 2 & 3.
I ran pin 1 of the old MAP sensor through a 470 resistor to the analogue pin A05 of the arduino. 
This now makes the Kawasaki sensor which is mounted on the throttle bodies the main MAP sensor for the ECU and the original MAP sensor is now a barometer. 
To calibrate the Kawasaki sensor I set the 0 volt setting to 2 kpa and the 5 volt setting to 125 kpa.
With these settings the MAP and Barometer meters tracked each other. So now the ECU can check the barometer every couple seconds meaning I can Ride from Denver to Tampa Bay without worrying about   the changes in atmospheric pressure.

https://youtu.be/gyYeJQyZTVQ

Offline connie_rider

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #95 on: April 10, 2020, 02:37:59 PM »
I think that was an important improvement.

Ride safe, Ted

gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #96 on: April 18, 2020, 02:00:15 PM »
Cleaned up the throttle cable extensions. The original cables were too short to go under the throttle bodies and reach the far side so I had to extend them.. I kept the original sheath and ends and bought a couple replacement cables that were long enough. After I threaded the new cables through the old sheath I measured the amount that it it would take to reach the bottom of the throttle bodies. Then I cut a couple pieces of sheath from another cable and slid it over the cable.  Where the joints are, I drilled through an aluminum spacer so the both pieces of the sheath fit snugly into it.  The part that mates with the throttle bodies was cut from the old cables and mated with the new cable I had constructed.  Clear as mud right?  It's easier to see in the photos. I would rather have a single cable sheath but I wanted to keep the ends that fit in the throttle handle and the throttle body.

Bored to death. I have done the warm up enrichment tune 3 times this week.  Can't go for a tuning ride because we are restricted to essential errands only.

Offline sport rider

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #97 on: April 18, 2020, 07:43:33 PM »
not seeing a problem.  a tuning ride IS essential!  :)

Offline connie_rider

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #98 on: April 19, 2020, 08:05:53 AM »
Did you ever determine what the engine noise was?

Ride safe, Ted

gpineau

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Re: C10 EFI Project
« Reply #99 on: April 19, 2020, 08:28:30 AM »
Did you ever determine what the engine noise was?

Ride safe, Ted
No I didn't.
The noise is still there it is not as loud as when it first happened. Could be only at certain temperatures. I am guessing the cam is slapping the cam follower but cant be sure unless I pull the valve cover,which I dread.  But I may pull the cover and do a valve adjustment just to stay busy.