Concours is torturing me

[Bernardelli]

I have been going around and around trying to get my bike to run right. 2005. I have owned it since 2007. Always ran fine until last winter. I did all the maintenance (probably too frequently).

It started out with a combination of spark and carb problems. Reved fine in neutral. Intermitent poor running and bad gas mileage. I would get 50 highway and this dropped to 28-30 mpg. Sometimes it ran fine. Had some fuel leak back into air box. When running bad I would get power loss and some missing at 4000-4500 plus.

What I did so far in order:
valve adjustment(didn't really need it and did nothing)
rebuilt carbs(this helped)
disassembled and cleaned gas cap and gas shutoff valve(might have helped)
Cleaned stock aircleaner
new fuel lines, vacuum lines on carb etc

*I should say now that the fuel system was very clean and so were the carbs*

replaced lost gas tank bumper(I think this might have caused a high speed miss)
replaced plug wires
replaced spark plugs(old ones looked near new and fine)

*the above 3 items did get rid of a high speed miss at 5000+rpm*

After all this the bike runs good half the time. I think my gas mileage is still poor(been flogging it in frustration). The other half it has lack of power above 5000 or higher.

I tried running it with the guts out of the gas cap and the fuel valve on prime. No effect.
Removed the air cleaner. RUNS MUCH BETTER

I decided the air cleaner is bad even though I kept it clean and it  looks fine.

Replace with K&N. Runs even worse. 5000+ rpm when hard accelerating BAD. Will slow accelerate OK to 80 mph+ but still not running great.

Removed air box cover. Made more noise ran even worse.

Removed air filter and ran with air box cover on. runs pretty good.

If this was a newer car, I would think a gremlin sensor or something. I don't get the removing the air cleaner at all. I actually tried that back at the beginning and it did nothing.

Should I vent the stock air cleaner and trade it in?

I really thought it must be spark(electrical) until the air cleaner experiment. No clue what would do this. What say you?

TIA Sam

[Daytona_Mike]

You said : rebuilt carbs(this helped).
May I asked who rebuild the carbs and what was done?  This is where I would be looking.
Have you done a  compression test? You may also  need to do a bent rod test  because you said you saw fuel leak back into the air box,
 and this is  for sure: ('Removed air filter........ runs pretty good')  tells  us that your carbs are  not right plus you have poor fuel economy all pointing to carbs.
What new plugs did you use and did you gap them? If you pass the compression test and bent rod test let us know. We will  get your bike going really well  and you will be more than happy. You came to the right place but you should have asked much sooner then having to go through all what you have done so far.

[MAN OF BLUES]

......
I decided the air cleaner is bad even though I kept it clean and it  looks fine.

Replace with K&N. Runs even worse. 5000+ rpm when hard accelerating BAD. Will slow accelerate OK to 80 mph+ but still not running great.

Removed air box cover. Made more noise ran even worse.

Removed air filter and ran with air box cover on. runs pretty good.

If this was a newer car, I would think a gremlin sensor or something. I don't get the removing the air cleaner at all. I actually tried that back at the beginning and it did nothing.
........TIA Sam

I think you narrowed it right down there...
clean but oVEROILED airfilter
K&N filter should be oiled SPARINGLY, do not attempt to use the whole "bubble" of oil it comes with, that bubble should last for years...same goes for any oiled filter.
K/N should barely be pink when correct, not red and dripping. there should be no residual oil in the airbox from the filter.

pulling the filter and running good without it also suggests it's running rich, so a check of things causing this would be in order....flaots set too high, or imbalanced, imbalanced carbs themselves, incorrect jetting, and incorrect slide needle/position/wear/ assembly.., possibly enrichening circuit not completley closing down.

[Bernardelli]

I rebuilt the carbs using a rebuild kit from murphs kits. It did help. I definitely had problem with at least one float needle and seat.

I just got back from a test ride after doing a couple things. I sort of figured out that a K&N running worse meant too much oil. I blew it off with compressed air. I then got it in my head that maybe the restriction from the air filter would make a air leak on the carb boots worse or make vacuum leaks worse. I reset the carbs in the boots and checked the hoses on the carb.

It still has hesitation right before 5000 rpm and doesn't accelerate cleanly above it.  The miss I had at about the same RPM is gone since replacing the plug wires. It runs perfectly below 4500 rpm. Probably better than ever. When I first had the problem  the hesitation was at 3500-4000. Maybe if I rebuild the carbs again I can get it up to 6500 and not care?

I should add again that it will probably run fine the next time I ride it. It has intermittently run fine since the beginning.

The bad MPG does seem to rule out a electrical short and point to carbs. I can't go for a longer ride until monday to check if MPG has changed.

[2fast]

You are way too rich on one or more cylinders. You said you had gas running back to the airbox at one point? That is a pretty good indicator of a stuck float valve, the precursor to hydrolock.  Also, when you cleaned the carbs....did you follow some procedure......have you done this before? Many have "cleaned carbs" but really have no idea what they are doing. Not pointing a finger at you, just stating the facts.

Did you use the clear tube method to set your fuel bowl levels? Fuel height is very important as well. If all else fails, send em to Steve SISF at Shoodaben and get em done right. He can also install the overflow tubes for you at the same time.

[roadrunner322]

Have you installed a fuel filter?  Shouldn't cause backfire but it can keep the engine from revving past the rpm that it is not getting enough fuel.

Coils?

[Bernardelli]

I didn't get a chance to go for a ride until yesterday. First 20 miles it ran perfectly. After that I had roughness and hesitation starting around 4500-5000. It is hard to describe what I mean by that. Poor power, rough sort thousands of hiccups. I do not have the solid electrical misses at all anymore. I believe replacing the tank bumper and/or sparkplug wires fixed this.

 Is it even possible carbs out of sync would be causing intermittent problems at 4500 rpm? It idles and runs perfect under 3500 rpm  all the time now.

The Clymer manual talks about high alt and sea level adjustments on float bowl fuel level. It gives a single reading for sea level and a range for high altitude. Is that correct? What constitutes high altitude? I am at 4600 and ride between 2000-5000 most of the time. I did for several years before having the problem. Would the fuel level problem kick in above 4500 rpm? Be intermittent? Do you have to use the Kaw special tool?


It seems that faster I am traveling at a certain rpm the worse the symptoms if that is any help.  In neutral there is never any problem. Reving in 1st gear, it very hard to notice anything. Above 60 mph and in higher gears it is much more noticeable when it is happening. But it doesn't always happen.

 I have more time than money. The concours is way down my list of spending priorities right now. Any quick and dirty things I could test to narrow things down?

[RFH87_Connie]

I'm assuming you have tried the recommendations above.  After reading what everyone has posted, I'm thinking carbs myself.  You haven't specifically said you set or checked the float bowl fuel height yet.  Is it set correct?  What "special" Kawasaki tool are you talking about?  Nothing "special" is needed to do the carbs other than a little bit of clear tubing (as mentioned, fish tank type or similar) and maybe some fishing line to push into the passages to clear them.  Get 2-3 cans of carb spray cleaner.

I would say not to worry about high altitude settings (your choice, but asking for trouble).  Instead, if you get into that situation at some point in the future, a trick is to temporarily remove the air cleaner box cover while you are up there.  Dumps in a little extra air.

Just thinking out loud, it sounds to me the bike may instead be fuel starved after it runs for a lenght of time (a minute) at higher (normal) RPM.  Perhaps the fuel in the bowls is low to begin with and can't keep up with demand.  Either that, or there is a restriction somewhere.  Make sure the petcock is in fact clean and pointing perfectly to the on position.  I don't think you could actually block the screen element in the tank enough to actually reduce flow (I could be wrong).  Make sure you put the petcock together correctly and the rubber washer isn't partially blocking the inlet on outlet holes.  Yes, it is possible.

Make sure all of your wires are screwed in (not pushed) tightly.  Maybe undo them and cut off a 1/2" and screw them back together to eliminate any possible corrosion.  It could even be a coil is heating up, malfunctioning, and causing a weaker spark at high RPM (this is kind of rare, but possible).

Next time it happens.  I would say to immediately (safely) pull over to the side of the road, put it on prime for about a minute or less, and see if it starts up and runs fine for at least a short period of time.  This may prove or eliminate the fuel starving issue.

[mach1charlie]

the randomness of the problem makes me think its 'lectric

[gpzrocker]

I had a missing problem this week, found the cold + just a wee bit loose battery terminals made for ugly running.

[MAN OF BLUES]

the randomness of the problem makes me think its 'lectric

it's not.
It's not random, nor electric, having diagnosed these things for about 7 years, this is sounding more like a water problem....
removing the tank as many times as has been done recently tends to stir up contaminants laying in there, and causing them to flow with the fuel into the tiny circuits of the carb bank, couple this with likely water, and you have exactly what we see now.
if the carbs have been truly cleaned (every port and orifice giving a healthy spray patter of aerosol cleaner when flushed from the various circuit points) then a liberal dump of fuel from the tank, sucking out any existing water from the bottom corners using a turkey baster with a piece of tubing attached to insure all is sucked out, a refill of clean, fresh fuel, and the Addition of a full bottle of Heet or IsoHeet fuel dryer should assist greatly in restoring. Don't be tempted to start dumping Techron, Berrymans B12, or any other "carb cleaners" in there untill you run thru a full tank of clean gas with the added Heet product.

[Bernardelli]

Well to update. I haven't had a lot of time to work on the bike.

When I rebuilt the carbs, I emptied the fuel tank(very clean no rust, nothing) and tossed the remaining fuel. Rep[laced fuel lines and disassembled and cleaned the petcock assembly. Everything in the fuel system was very clean. The bike has been in Arizona most of it's life and in a heated garage when it was up north for one year.

The only thing fuel related left to do is float level. I could also recheck the valves for the 3rd time while I have the tank and fairing off. Remember I had MPG issues and believe I still do.

As far as electrical, it just doesn't like that is the problem anymore. Once I had a weird coil on a car that would act up but it wasn't really like this.

Could it be crankcase vents or anything else like that?

I do think it runs better when the engine is cool and temperature lower but I suppose that running rich could be the issue.

Any hints on using just tubing to check float level? My manual gives directions for a graduated Kwasaki special tool that looks like rigid tube of plastic with marks on it.

[RFH87_Connie]

Man of Blues ..... set him on the path to righteousness...... about the float levels.

[vinny]

Attach a piece of clear tubing to the carb drain nipple. Route the tube around the carb body so that you can see the fuel level and compare it with the joint line on the carb case after you release the drain screw. Try to keep the tube perfectly still during this operation as it can cause problems with your readings. HTH