KIPASS issue alive and well

[Tree]

First: If there isn't a recall for this switch then I consider that a crime. Truly.

I have an '08 C14 (bought it used, joined the party late).  I have been reading virtually everything about this bike.  I was very aware of this KIPASS monster.  I felt like the guy strapped to the table in a torture chamber with the Sword of Damocles swinging overhead.  i.e. It was only a matter of time.  Now it's my turn.  Yay!

Here is my narrative.  I'll try to keep it concise.  Troubleshooting is hard enough in First-Person:

No response from the ignition switch (IS) key push from the "Off" position.  Key did not turn but it did depress.  Tried both FOBs.  Placed them on the transponder - nothing.  Main Battery checked next - everything tight & 13VDC.  I located the wire bundles below the cover to the left of the triple tree.  Disconnected and re-connected the grey plug (no more than a 5 second wait to push the switch again).  No Workie.  I then applied an amount of Mechanical Agitation that I felt comfortable with to this piece of plastic with no luck.

I've read a ton and viewed video that shows a microswitch (MS) integral to the IS.  This switch is actuated via a metal tang in the IS. when it is depressed.  I assumed that the break/make action of the MS acted to pulse the KIPASS electronics and initiate a startup once that square wave passed through.  This is where I may have made a very expensive mistake.  The MS is NC and was stuck open.  The circuit was energized with 13VDC at the white connector (2 wires, WHT and BRN).   I unplugged both the grey and white connectors and measured the operation of the MS through the white connector looking in.  Cycling the IS key up and down did not change the resistance, it showed OL, and I did not hear the click.

Could it be that easy?  This MS is closed practically all of the time with the 12VDC being delivered to its load.  Opening and closing this switch during an engine start sends a negative "pulse".  That's all it does physically.  Whatever happens downstream is irrelevant.  Right?

I cut the 2 wires leading from the WHT connector.  I then attached the new MS to the plug (photo).  The unknown at this point is whether or not it made any difference if the IS was pressed to get the system booted up when the new MS was pressed.  So I pressed the IS and then pulsed the new MS at the same time.  I got the icon and the screen lit up on the cluster.

I turned the IS key to ON.  The display came alive and I could hear the other normal sounds associated with the engine startup.  I then started the motor.  Hell Yesssss (I thought).  Wait for it...  This is where it got "weird".  I turned the IS to OFF and the motor did not shut down.  I pulsed the new MS and the motor stopped, but, the display remained lit up with the IS in OFF.  I didn't have warm N fuzzy feelings. I had tail lights and those two smaller lights in front lit also.  Unplugging the grey connector made the lights and the display turn off.  Awesome.

Now, being somewhat curious and totally dissatisfied with my results I tried another engine start.  It was like I hadn't done a thing to the circuit.  It won't start, the cluster does not energize.  I checked the 2 KIPASS fuses beneath the seat (middle fuse holder).  Both 10A fuses are good.  Is there another fuse?

That's where I'm at.  Scratching my head and starting to add up the cost of trailering the bike to our local stealer.  I am considering replacing the IS with a new assembly myself (anyone have a spare?).  I think this involves removing the top of the triple tree and drilling out 2 bolts.  Anyway, that's where it stands right now.  I can almost hear the wheels turning in the collective craniums of this forum.  I would like to hear from you all.

Tree.

[gPink]

Sounds like a classic case of the spring in the ignition switch being stuck. Normally, if you'd have asked before going all Frankenstein on the wiring it would have been suggested that depressing the key and letting your thumb slide off so the key pops up as hard as possible a couple of times might have dislodged the stuck spring. Also a brisk tap on the ig switch with a heavy object such as a small hammer or a K-rock might have done it. As it is now I would remove your add-on switch, properly repair the wiring disconnect the battery to let the system reset and try to above mentioned solutions.

[Tree]

Didn't know about the spring issue inside the ignition switch.  So, long story - shorter?

All of the fuses checked out OK.

I realized placing a NC, momentary contact switch in this circuit was the wrong decision.  I also exercised the SLU switch by pushing it down and releasing it quickly in an attempt to give that internal spring some help.  Was a sticky SLU spring the initial problem?  Maybe.  Don't know for sure and I don't have any B&A data anyhow.

I have permanently disconnected the white  two-wire plug with the WHT and BRN wires.  The associated microswitch inside the SLU (that the tang pushes on) wasn't working.  It's stuck open.  I placed a toggle switch (TS) in that circuit.  I attached a photo of the mounting point.  Well protected from the weather and inconspicuous.  I probably used 3/4 of a roll of e-tape during this butchery.

This is what I now do to start the bike:
Push & release the SLU switch.
The Key icon appears.
Turn the SLU switch to ON.  Watch for and expect no change on the cluster.  The icon turns off after 5 seconds.
Turn the TS ON.
The cluster powers up and the bike can be started.

To shut down:
Turn the SLU switch to OFF.  The motor shuts down.
Place the TS in off and the remaining electrical shuts down.

It works and that is all I care about at this point.  Replacing the SLU is the next step if I want to invest the time and money - but that is not going to happen any time soon.  I don't want to deal with the security bolts anyway.

Thanks for the reply gPink.

[maxtog]

Didn't know about the spring issue inside the ignition switch.

It is actually quite a common problem (well, we don't have THAT many problems, but when there are issues, this is the most common when it comes to start/ignition/key issues).   I am surprised you didn't encounter the topic when "reading virtually everything about this bike"  The spring was replaced in later models of the Concours for exactly this reason.  It didn't completely fix the issue for everyone, but it helped tremendously.

The design of the "press down to activate a switch" thing is a bit flawed, and I am sure Brian (BDF) will chime in on the topic (or you can just read one of the many existing threads about it).  The KIPASS system, itself, is not the problem, it is all about the activation switch (and occasionally about the knob stripping from someone not knowing what they are going trying to force-turn it too many times).  In fact, I have never seen a single post about the actual  KIPASS system failing, it is pretty bullet-proof.  Technically, the thread topic/subject isn't applicable, but whatever.

You can get the stronger spring and that might help.  I tend to remember reading it is not an easy procedure, though.  A 2008 model is now 8+ years old with who-knows how much use on that weaker-designed spring.  Was the bike garage kept?  How often was it started?  How worn out is it?  How dusty and humid was it's life?  Did someone spray lots of goop in there thinking it would help?  Lots of factors can contribute to the switch not activating the way it should.

[MAN OF BLUES]

My '08 switch works fine.t
The key has been removed 2 times in its life, bith times within the first month... and has been happy ever since.
Last thing I would have done, in an attempt to fix the issue, would have been to "Frankenstein" another switch in there... best of luck with any dealer you take it to and say. "Wasssup?"

A little reading prior would have turned up BDF's harness cure.
Sorry you had to go thru all that, might want to return it to "as found" and take it from there again.

[gPink]

Tree, interesting work around. Though not how I might have tackled the problem I can appreciate the thought process that brought you to a workable solution.

[VirginiaJim]

'Insert shaking head smiley here'...

[gPink]

all i gots is a dancing banana 

[maxtog]

We need a dancing K-rock

[DaddyFlip]

Kipass monster? Is that an energy drink?

[zarticus]

A couple taps with a rubber mallet probably would of taken care of it as described in the MANY post on this forum 

[Tree]

I agree that the label "KIPASS Problem/Monster" tends to shed a bad light on a system which is actually pretty good.  A majority of the issues that I have come across in the forums revolve around the SLU and associated switch, and I haven't come close to reading them all.  For me looking through the forums for that best answer is like looking for the fabled needle.  I did try some mechanical agitation, as I mentioned, but I am not comfortable whacking a plastic switch.  I saw the postings from BDF also and the information was very helpful.

I did consider just tackling this issue without broadcasting on this forum but that wouldn't have been any fun.  I have the deepest respect for my fellow riders that have carried the torch for the C10 & 14.  Thanks so much for the feedback and helpful information.

[deepseamdv]

+1 gPink. Interesting work around.

[B.D.F.]

Just saw this thread.

I am having a hard time following what you found, what you did and how you describe it all working. But some things do not sound quite correct such as the bike having NC switches (normally closed) and anything circuit being positive but sending a 'negative pulse'.

That said, you cannot get to the circuit that the activation switch is in. The outside wiring is all external to internal (Boys!) circuits, so everything available outside the ignition switch assembly, which contains a PC board and has various, does not allow the specific circuit containing any switches to be interrupted or anything else done to them.

Now, that said, if whatever you did is working for you, then great and the best of luck going forward. But it is a little concerning to me that you cannot shut your bike off by using the key, or use it in any normal way without having to change the state of that external switch you added. A C-14 does not require an external switch be added and used for use, and frankly I am wary of whatever you did to stop the ignition switch from shutting down the bike in the first place. Again, all in my opinion of course.

Brian

First: If there isn't a recall for this switch then I consider that a crime. Truly.

I have an '08 C14 (bought it used, joined the party late).  I have been reading virtually everything about this bike.  I was very aware of this KIPASS monster.  I felt like the guy strapped to the table in a torture chamber with the Sword of Damocles swinging overhead.  i.e. It was only a matter of time.  Now it's my turn.  Yay!

Here is my narrative.  I'll try to keep it concise.  Troubleshooting is hard enough in First-Person:

No response from the ignition switch (IS) key push from the "Off" position.  Key did not turn but it did depress.  Tried both FOBs.  Placed them on the transponder - nothing.  Main Battery checked next - everything tight & 13VDC.  I located the wire bundles below the cover to the left of the triple tree.  Disconnected and re-connected the grey plug (no more than a 5 second wait to push the switch again).  No Workie.  I then applied an amount of Mechanical Agitation that I felt comfortable with to this piece of plastic with no luck.

I've read a ton and viewed video that shows a microswitch (MS) integral to the IS.  This switch is actuated via a metal tang in the IS. when it is depressed.  I assumed that the break/make action of the MS acted to pulse the KIPASS electronics and initiate a startup once that square wave passed through.  This is where I may have made a very expensive mistake.  The MS is NC and was stuck open.  The circuit was energized with 13VDC at the white connector (2 wires, WHT and BRN).   I unplugged both the grey and white connectors and measured the operation of the MS through the white connector looking in.  Cycling the IS key up and down did not change the resistance, it showed OL, and I did not hear the click.

Could it be that easy?  This MS is closed practically all of the time with the 12VDC being delivered to its load.  Opening and closing this switch during an engine start sends a negative "pulse".  That's all it does physically.  Whatever happens downstream is irrelevant.  Right?

I cut the 2 wires leading from the WHT connector.  I then attached the new MS to the plug (photo).  The unknown at this point is whether or not it made any difference if the IS was pressed to get the system booted up when the new MS was pressed.  So I pressed the IS and then pulsed the new MS at the same time.  I got the icon and the screen lit up on the cluster.

I turned the IS key to ON.  The display came alive and I could hear the other normal sounds associated with the engine startup.  I then started the motor.  Hell Yesssss (I thought).  Wait for it...  This is where it got "weird".  I turned the IS to OFF and the motor did not shut down.  I pulsed the new MS and the motor stopped, but, the display remained lit up with the IS in OFF.  I didn't have warm N fuzzy feelings. I had tail lights and those two smaller lights in front lit also.  Unplugging the grey connector made the lights and the display turn off.  Awesome.

Now, being somewhat curious and totally dissatisfied with my results I tried another engine start.  It was like I hadn't done a thing to the circuit.  It won't start, the cluster does not energize.  I checked the 2 KIPASS fuses beneath the seat (middle fuse holder).  Both 10A fuses are good.  Is there another fuse?

That's where I'm at.  Scratching my head and starting to add up the cost of trailering the bike to our local stealer.  I am considering replacing the IS with a new assembly myself (anyone have a spare?).  I think this involves removing the top of the triple tree and drilling out 2 bolts.  Anyway, that's where it stands right now.  I can almost hear the wheels turning in the collective craniums of this forum.  I would like to hear from you all.

Tree.

[Tree]

Hi Brian.  I appreciate your observations.  I must admit that my "solution" to the ignition switch issue that I had is nothing short of kludge.  For those of you who do not know what kludge is don't worry, it is/was a term my friends and I heard back in the day to refer to a less-than-pretty solution to a programming issue.  Needless to say, I don't write code any more.  Too many 1's & 0's.

I tend to tear into broken stuff and then wade my way out while I try to figure out how it was suppose to work.  I think I have a 50/50 success rate going it on my own.  If I just can't figure it out then I post my ineptitude on this board in the hope that I don't get too badly beaten.  I think I have a 50/50 success rate with that approach also. (The beatings will continue until morale improves!)

My post about the KIPASS issue makes for interesting reading and I come back and re-read it from time to time just for S&G's.  The toggle switch that I installed is doing what I need it to do.  I don't touch the ignition key any more and it stays in the OFF position.  I shut the bike down using the Kill Switch and I'm OK with that.  I pop the toggle switch down and the ignition system electronics are deenergized.

The installation of the toggle switch was meant to take the microswitch (internal to the ignition switch) out of the circuit since it was getting stuck open.  If I really had the time/patience/desire/skill/money I would have pushed for a more elegant (spoken: correct) solution.  Failing that, I did what I did and I am thankful that the bike didn't turn into a fireball.

[EZ]

Hi Brian.  I appreciate your observations.  I must admit that my "solution" to the ignition switch issue that I had is nothing short of kludge.  For those of you who do not know what kludge is don't worry, it is/was a term my friends and I heard back in the day to refer to a less-than-pretty solution to a programming issue.  Needless to say, I don't write code any more.  Too many 1's & 0's.

I tend to tear into broken stuff and then wade my way out while I try to figure out how it was suppose to work.  I think I have a 50/50 success rate going it on my own.  If I just can't figure it out then I post my ineptitude on this board in the hope that I don't get too badly beaten.  I think I have a 50/50 success rate with that approach also. (The beatings will continue until morale improves!)

My post about the KIPASS issue makes for interesting reading and I come back and re-read it from time to time just for S&G's.  The toggle switch that I installed is doing what I need it to do.  I don't touch the ignition key any more and it stays in the OFF position.  I shut the bike down using the Kill Switch and I'm OK with that.  I pop the toggle switch down and the ignition system electronics are deenergized.

The installation of the toggle switch was meant to take the microswitch (internal to the ignition switch) out of the circuit since it was getting stuck open.  If I really had the time/patience/desire/skill/money I would have pushed for a more elegant (spoken: correct) solution.  Failing that, I did what I did and I am thankful that the bike didn't turn into a fireball.

  Great post! I can relate...

[B.D.F.]

OK.

First of all, I do not believe I knocked you in any way- I certainly did not mean to do so. It is your bike and you can certainly do whatever you want with / to it. So I  hope any 'beatings' you perceive came from somewhere else.... and if not, please let me know and I will correct my post(s) and apologize or we will work on our communication. 

I guess my thoughts are that I do not really understand what you did or why you did (and do) it. Not knocking, just stating that I am not following. Unless your ignition switch is broken, and I have never heard of that happening before although it is certainly possible. But whatever you have done / are doing regarding electrical 'bypassing' of something, you are still using all the original elements of the bike's systems (no way around that to my knowledge), and have added additional, external devices that perform some task that again, I do not understand. And there is no way to bypass or 'not use' any part of the KiPass system and still start the bike as far as I know.  So if you could take a moment when you have absolutely nothing better to do, could you explain what you have going on and what problem(s) you solved? Again, not being sarcastic, I am really trying to understand what you have done and why. And I fully allow for the fact that your previous explanation(s) are great and I am simply slow on the uptake.... it has happened before. To my knowledge, there is no N/C closed switch in the electrical starting system on the C-14.

So a couple specific questions if I may:
Without that switch, and the bike in stock form, does it work correctly?

If not, what was the nature of the failure?

And lastly, and again, 100% not bashing you or even throwing a little snottiness or sarcasm you way in the least: if there is a problem with the bike, and your switch provides a work- around, why not fix the bike so it works as designed? Not to say your method does not work, but would it not be easier to just use the ign. key to start and stop the bike?

Of course just ignore all of this if you care to do so- not your job to answer my questions of course. Again, I am just curious....  In the meantime, I will re- visit your earlier posts and try to find out what circuit you have interrupted and what your new switch may be doing.

Brian

Hi Brian.  I appreciate your observations.  I must admit that my "solution" to the ignition switch issue that I had is nothing short of kludge.  For those of you who do not know what kludge is don't worry, it is/was a term my friends and I heard back in the day to refer to a less-than-pretty solution to a programming issue.  Needless to say, I don't write code any more.  Too many 1's & 0's.

I tend to tear into broken stuff and then wade my way out while I try to figure out how it was suppose to work.  I think I have a 50/50 success rate going it on my own.  If I just can't figure it out then I post my ineptitude on this board in the hope that I don't get too badly beaten.  I think I have a 50/50 success rate with that approach also. (The beatings will continue until morale improves!)

My post about the KIPASS issue makes for interesting reading and I come back and re-read it from time to time just for S&G's.  The toggle switch that I installed is doing what I need it to do.  I don't touch the ignition key any more and it stays in the OFF position.  I shut the bike down using the Kill Switch and I'm OK with that.  I pop the toggle switch down and the ignition system electronics are deenergized.

The installation of the toggle switch was meant to take the microswitch (internal to the ignition switch) out of the circuit since it was getting stuck open.  If I really had the time/patience/desire/skill/money I would have pushed for a more elegant (spoken: correct) solution.  Failing that, I did what I did and I am thankful that the bike didn't turn into a fireball.

[just gone]

The installation of the toggle switch was meant to take the microswitch (internal to the ignition switch) out of the circuit since it was getting stuck open. 

It seems to me that Tree mistook a normally open switch for a normally closed one and misdiagnosed it as stuck open when it was stuck closed and responded accordingly...somehow it worked but is still (in his words) kludge?

Could be something entirely different which would make this another one of my kludge posts. I kinda like that word kludge.

[Tree]

Brian - There is no perceived slight or maltreatment of any kind.  So please don't worry about me being offended and defensive in any way.  I am familiar with your writing style and I have no problems with how you communicate your ideas.  I get it.

The following is for Brian and anybody else out there that thinks I am insane.  Because I am.

So, the ignition switch.  I will try to give a chronology the best that I can if the initial post and subsequent explanations are still not clear.  And they might not be clear considering my brain gets a little foggy.  Especially since this all occurred a year ago.

(Ahem) I went to start the bike, key fob in my pocket. I pressed down on the ignition key/switch and I didn't get the key symbol on the cluster.  The key did not turn from OFF to ON.  I tried a few times.  I pushed in and released quickly to get the internal switch to pop back up (in the event that it was stuck down).  I applied some mechanical agitation to the ignition switch housing to no avail.

I read posts about the possibility of the internal switch sticking (I saw the one about the fuse). I unplugged and restored the connector with the 2 wires and then pressed on the key - I got the key symbol on the cluster and turned the key. The bike would then start and run.  All other subsequent attempts to start the bike after normal shutdown required disconnect/reconnect of the 2 wire connector.

That's when I focused on the 2 wire pair and their function in starting the bike.  If the internal switch was sticking in the ignition switch then I thought I had found a way to work around it and I assumed that the 2 wire connector was connected to the internal switch.  I decided to bypass the internal switch with an external toggle switch.  I actually looked at the electrical diagram and it appeared to confirm my assumption.  I don't know what happens downstream of the internal (now external) switch.  One end goes directly to the battery through the 30A main fuse.  I assume the other side connects to an ECU to sequence a motor start.

So that's what I have.  An externally mounted toggle switch connected in place of the one that is internal to the ignition switch.  When I flip the toggle ON the instrument cluster spins up and I can start the bike, as long as the fob is within range.  To shut down I could just flip the toggle switch to OFF - that will shut down the motor and instrument cluster.  Instead I use the Kill switch on the right and then flip the toggle down after placing the bike on the kickstand.  I can't completely explain why it works, I just know that I can start and stop the motor using this method now.

I feel that I left something out but I will have to wait for you guys to chew on this and post your questions.

I told you I was INSANE.

[B.D.F.]

OK, I got you, what you did and what you have.

You are using an external switch in place of the ignition switch, and leaving the ignition switch permanently in the ON position, right?

The circuit you interrupted is the power circuit to the ignition switch, so of course that will work. And not just on a C-14 but ANY vehicle: locate the ignition switch, switch it to the ON position, then cut the wires that power the ignition switch and put a toggle switch in- line and poof, like in the punch line of any number of bad jokes, all your vehicles 'look alike', at least regarding starting them (flip the toggle, hit the starter). 

But just to flesh out this idea a bit, there are no normally closed switches you are bypassing; you are setting a normally open switch to closed (turning the ignition switch to ON and leaving it there) and then using your own switch instead.

For what it is worth, and more to others who may be reading this, I would suggest instead of doing something like this to find the problem and fix it, if there is a problem this fixes at all. In finding out how to make a KiPass activation switch, I tried the obvious method of cutting power to the entire ignition circuit (as I said before, there is a circuit in there and not merely an ignition switch but an entire identification circuit that is used to read the RFID part of KiPass when using either the emergency fob of the RF fob with a dead battery) and that does not work because the re-boot time exceeds the KiPass "the switch is stuck and I will shut down the system to prevent a dead battery" time.

Thanks for the additional explanation, and I apologize for not scrutinizing your first post again before asking 'cause I think there was sufficient information there- my bad as the kids say. I hate it when I do not pay enough attention! And while I was at it, I re-read the entire thread and I think I found the source of.... er, any digs, abuse and similar. And it weren't me. Which is good 'cause I did not intend to dig, abuse or similar and hate to think I was doing it by accident (it <may> have been a mistake to shoot the person or persons you meant to shoot but it is almost always a mistake to shoot the person or persons you did not mean to shoot.... a wise philosophy IME      ).

Brian

Brian - There is no perceived slight or maltreatment of any kind.  So please don't worry about me being offended and defensive in any way.  I am familiar with your writing style and I have no problems with how you communicate your ideas.  I get it.

The following is for Brian and anybody else out there that thinks I am insane.  Because I am.

So, the ignition switch.  I will try to give a chronology the best that I can if the initial post and subsequent explanations are still not clear.  And they might not be clear considering my brain gets a little foggy.  Especially since this all occurred a year ago.

<snip>

So that's what I have.  An externally mounted toggle switch connected in place of the one that is internal to the ignition switch.  When I flip the toggle ON the instrument cluster spins up and I can start the bike, as long as the fob is within range.  To shut down I could just flip the toggle switch to OFF - that will shut down the motor and instrument cluster.  Instead I use the Kill switch on the right and then flip the toggle down after placing the bike on the kickstand.  I can't completely explain why it works, I just know that I can start and stop the motor using this method now.

I feel that I left something out but I will have to wait for you guys to chew on this and post your questions.

I told you I was INSANE.