Author Topic: petcock leaking again  (Read 5963 times)

Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2019, 11:38:03 AM »
There is ONLY one way to prevent hydrolock and it is NOT with any petcock or filter or fancy solenoids.
The ONLY way to prevent hydrolock is to install overflow tubes. 
Do not play around with this issue. Hydrolock is serious.  Get  over flow tubes.
 They are the simplest and best and only way to prevent hydrolock.

Overflow tubes are also the ONLY way that lets you monitor that your float valves are working.  The second a tiny piece or dirt gets in the needles or any of  the floats sticks you will know immediately and which carb it is too and then you can take immediate action to remedy the problem. ONLY over flow tubes will do that. They are not for just preventing Hydrolock.
  They can tell you why your fuel economy dropped.
If you still have fuel in the tank, you are not lost yet
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2019, 06:39:34 PM »
Yes I did. Did you answer the question or ask another?

YES, I did, and the answer was NO, it does NOT....
what part about the other 3 float bowls being full,)or even over full, if the floats are mal adjusted) and possibly draining back by gravity,  when the bike is on the SIDE stand, into the lowest carb, over flowing it if it has a bad float needle..... DIDN'T you comprehend?

I realize it might be a technical issue, and I deal with that... maybe understanding the systems at play, instead of commentary about how bad they were for decades....("Stop the flow of fuel with a shutoff valve and guess what? No more hydrolock and no boom from spilled fuel. The needle/seats and the petcock are poor designs. You would think Kaw would have done something to solve it.")  If you spent as much time in this area, as you have in the Arena...(if Arena posts were countable, you probably would outnumber me 4x on post count totals..., but they don't count...) and doing maintenance on these bikes, you might get a better feel for it.

You could even pull the fuel line off the petcock, and have a bike Hydrolok, maybe even easier and faster... when #1 carb's float needle is bad...


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Offline Cholla

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2019, 09:42:44 AM »
Hmm...no fuel going to the carbs yet the fuel will flow to the carbs.

That's a new twist on the laws of physics!
Tell me how that can happen.
Please. The overflow tubes dont stop the needle/seat from leaking. It can still flow into tbe cylinder and onto the floor waiting to be ignited.

I bet no one has removed their petcocks since they are not needed, right?
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Offline Stasch

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2019, 10:13:02 AM »
Quote
Hmm...no fuel going to the carbs yet the fuel will flow to the carbs.

My $.02 (worth exactly that).  The over flow tubes only prevent fuel from flowing into a cylinder and the potential hydrolock.

I understand what was said to mean that when the bike is on its side stand, AND bowl 1 has leaky float needle, some of contents from carbs 2, 3 and 4 can make it past bowl 1's leaky float needle because fluid seeks the lowest level. 

This would raise the level of bowl 1 (this is sounding like Dr. Suess's Thing 1 and Thing 2) to the point where the excess fuel has to go somewhere - either cylinder 1 or an the overflow tube (if present). 

This could occur without additional fuel continuing into the scenario when the fuel line has been disconnected.

The risk of fuel on the floor is an eventuality with or without overflow tubes with a full fuel tank connected.

Once the cylinder and / or crankcase is full of fuel, its going to go out the airbox, just takes a little longer.

(edit for spelling)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 03:09:15 PM by Stasch »
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Offline jimbobob

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2019, 10:59:25 AM »
Stasch and MOB provided and excellent explanation. If you understand how the carb system works, what they say makes sense. With the bike level and bowls full, then being put on side stand could cause a hydrolock with no overflow tubes and no additional gas from the tank.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2019, 05:34:21 PM »
thanks, glad you grasped the explanation, I only repeated it again, so Cholla could attempt to "grasp" it; of course, I never could defy the laws of physics, especially "gravity" (and it's direct opposite... "Levity...")   :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :goodpost:   or it's effect on liquids seeking their own 'level'...



tilt the rack, and the level in the lowside 'amazingly rises'..... :yikes:

https://brainly.in/question/5309087

but, I'm sure if its on the net, it's true....

enjoy...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gravity_hills

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline Cholla

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2019, 01:49:50 PM »
So....if you have a properly working fuel shutoff this will still happen?
Splain how fuel will still flow to the carbs. Btw, the fuel in bowls 2-3will not go to cylinder 1 because it would need to go uphill to get out of the bowls.
Now Splain how gas on the garage floor is a good thing. All it takes to blow up a boat is a teaspoon of gas.

Face it, the Honda carbs kaw used are crap. Over the years they could have used better carbs AND petcock. Known trouble spots.
Beware the Black Widows...Feared throughout the land!

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2019, 06:32:23 PM »
So....if you have a properly working fuel shutoff this will still happen?
Splain how fuel will still flow to the carbs. Btw, the fuel in bowls 2-3will not go to cylinder 1 because it would need to go uphill to get out of the bowls.
Now Splain how gas on the garage floor is a good thing. All it takes to blow up a boat is a teaspoon of gas.

Face it, the Honda carbs kaw used are crap. Over the years they could have used better carbs AND petcock. Known trouble spots.
the fuel may already be in the carbs, vi poorly sealing float valves, to a point of "almost' a hydro event, when the bike is turned off, with a fully functioning petcock.. when the vacuum stops, the petcock (fully functioning) shuts off.. but... in the event of one, two, three, or all four float needles failing to sel prior, the levels have already exceed the capacity for the area of the carb bowls, but... once stopped, all that fuel is STILL THERE, way over the point it should have been shut off by the floats.  You don't get it.. that's fine, I've done more carbs than I care to comment on, and been paid for them.. you stand there, and pose at me, and toss out conjecture, based on your lack of actual knowledg in maintaining, and repairing issues.. then follow it up with disparaging remarks about the "design" of a carb, that is ancient, and actually when never let set, and /or maintained, really is quite reliable.. go back to the Arena, I know, it's now very bleak, and you really can't "attack" anyone there" anymore.. because.. well just because..
 if you want to take on the "expert role" go right ahead.. I'll just step back.  You answer the carb issues daily from now on..
meh..

ya can't make me bite the worm dude.. stop now.    Or, write an article and submit it to the Concourier, and "Splain it all"..  :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline Cholla

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2019, 02:37:21 PM »
And you have the nerve to accuse me of disparaging remarks?
Get over thyself.
If there was that much fuel in the carbs while running...it wouldn't be. And if there was that much fuel in the bowl on carb 4 it would go to cylinder 4 not carb 1. Remember the fuel is shut off.
And don't tell me about working on carbs. I've built a few in my day on 800hp race engines.
Everything from lawnmowers to Thermo Quads, and Dortons. As for being paid to fix carbs? That doesn't mean anything.
I've had to fix brand new race carbs from a well known carb company that specializes in them. They said nothing was wrong with them because they thought the carb was in DFW and not STL. They were wrong.
Btw...where is the fuel x over tube in relation to the bowl?
Happy New Year!
Beware the Black Widows...Feared throughout the land!

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2019, 07:53:39 AM »
Darn..I hate finding out about another trashed C10 engine. I just got off the phone with an old friend of mine.  He told me he had recently  installed a manual petcock. Yesterday he went to start the bike and the he heard a big 'clunk' and now it wont turn over. I had him do a test.  The engine is locked. He has a severely bent rod.  The engine is toast. I told him long ago  that a manual petcock increases the risk of   a Hydro-lock event. Did he listen??.... nope.  I told him long ago that we have seen manual petcocks hydro-lock engines before . Did he listen? Nope.   I told him that a properly maintained OEM petcock would have prevented hydro-lock. Did he listen?  nope.     Was this preventable? Of course. Did he listen to me and get overflow tubes installed? Nope.  We can only advise people. We cannot force people. He is definitely listening to my advise now.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 08:25:09 AM by Daytona_Mike »
If you still have fuel in the tank, you are not lost yet
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle

gpineau

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2019, 09:56:49 AM »
VirginiaJim nailed it months ago. FUEL INJECTION solves the problem.

Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2019, 10:19:42 AM »
VirginiaJim nailed it months ago. FUEL INJECTION solves the problem.

+1  I agree. Fuel injection is far superior. The only problem is the cost and time involved when converting to  fuel injection from carburators is a wee bit more expensive than  simply adding OverFlow Tubes.
If you still have fuel in the tank, you are not lost yet
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle

gpineau

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2019, 11:34:02 AM »
Steve charges $450 to rework the carbs and install the overflow tubes.  $450 goes a long ways toward EFI.   Just saying.

Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2019, 04:35:20 PM »
Steve charges $450 to rework the carbs and install the overflow tubes.  $450 goes a long ways toward EFI.   Just saying.
That's a great service at a really good price IF your carbs need rebuilding and  that includes new jets..balanced and  2 Minute mod and more. Basically better than brand new
I installed over flow tubes for about $1.50 in parts. The directions are also free  and posted on the COG forum. It's not that hard to just remove the bowls and have them done or find used bowls from the old Voyager. Those fit and already have overflow tubes
If you still have fuel in the tank, you are not lost yet
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle

gpineau

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2020, 12:32:24 PM »
Not that it matters now that the discussion has ended.

My Honda Magna came with a solenoid valve in fuel line. Any time the switch was off, so was the fuel.  The original owner said it was to keep it from dripping on the garage floor.  It was easier to install this than to pull the carbs off a V4 engine.

It looked like this.
https://www.amazon.com/4inch-Normally-Closed-Electric-Solenoid/dp/B00ON8XFSO/ref=sr_1_19?crid=3BBUWIW14QP13&keywords=12+volt+fuel+valve&qid=1578079361&sprefix=12+volt+fuel+va%2Caps%2C173&sr=8-19

Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2020, 04:20:18 AM »
Not that it matters now that the discussion has ended.

My Honda Magna came with a solenoid valve in fuel line. Any time the switch was off, so was the fuel.  The original owner said it was to keep it from dripping on the garage floor.  It was easier to install this tha..
... Not a good idea

Another bad idea. First ....  Honda Sabers and Magnas already came with overflow tubes. ( I had Saber 1000...which is a non raked version of the Magna cruiser --- which did not handle near as well as the Saber). 

So what is the point of hiding \ masking a bad leaky float   valve with  a solenoid.  Those bikes were manual peacocks anyway so the only thing a solenoid did was add an  additional point of failure...mask a problem..restrict fuel flow...and zero benefit....well No gas on the floor because the raw gas went into the engine or on the ground as he rides down the road  unaware of the problem except the rider wonders why the bike has such shifty gas mileage..

Fix the bad float valve would the correct proceedure.  Overflow tubes are important..then do what ever you want..Manual petcock ..electric solenoids. ..fuel injection of course if you prefer.
If you still have fuel in the tank, you are not lost yet
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2020, 06:14:06 PM »
I was trying to refrain from comments.. as they seem to be too technical for some folks.. but I have to comment.

Using an "air" valve, as noted, for gasoline, is pretty ... well, I'm not gonna say the multi-word.

to condone, or even suggest it, or accept it, is totally irresponsible. If someone wants a fuel shutoff, find one rated for FUEL...
that in essence, combined by the flow and thermal attributes of the valve noted, just places people into the "Darwin zone".
suggesting this, to a forum of people that don't get/may not be, really technical, places the burden of shame, on the person posting.

BTW, a bunch of this is old school, many times discussed,(we have discussed, and examined all the "cheap" fuel valves, and found actual passage port sizes in the 1/8", to .140" diameters), and found to be not really viable for use.. the actual "flow" orifice, within the valves suitable for fuel, are way too small (don't confuse the NPT fitting size of 1/4", with the actual port thru the valve body, which is greatly diminished)..

If you doubt this, call Murph... when this first popped up, he did find a suitable valve, but in later discovery,(after some of us tested flow characteristics, ) decided the flow was "not reliable", and dropped it.. some of us have been here a long time, trying solutions. Best solution is a good petcock build, and associated overflow tubes as a backup.
nuff said. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

gpineau

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2020, 06:31:57 PM »
MOB,
I knew you couldn't resist.
Didn't suggest it. Just said one of my previous bikes came with it.
Not sure it was that exact valve, just that it looked like it.


Daytona_Mike,
Maybe you have seen them but, I've rebuild several magna carbs and have never, ever seen overflow tubes.
Whatever the reason he put that electric shutoff valve on the bike it is not such a bad idea as a fail safe to prevent hydro-lock.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: petcock leaking again
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2020, 06:50:58 PM »
Not that it matters now that the discussion has ended.

My Honda Magna came with a solenoid valve in fuel line. Any time the switch was off, so was the fuel.  The original owner said it was to keep it from dripping on the garage floor.  It was easier to install this than to pull the carbs off a V4 engine.

It looked like this.
https://www.amazon.com/4inch-Normally-Closed-Electric-Solenoid/dp/B00ON8XFSO/ref=sr_1_19?crid=3BBUWIW14QP13&keywords=12+volt+fuel+valve&qid=1578079361&sprefix=12+volt+fuel+va%2Caps%2C173&sr=8-19

 I just went on your post.
Unless you specify the exact valve, I stand by my comment.

I always tend to educate people to do safe things. You may mistake my intent, but that is not something bad.
good luck.

having watched your "progress", and attempts to modernize things, while basically taking a hammer to your hand, I find anything can be done, but with tried methods, and history, the "wheel" doesn not have to be re-invented from scratch.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=24374.msg304192#msg304192

I have endless time on my hands, but find the technology for every machine, worthy of just "maintaining".. I wish I had your $$$.

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..