Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: FIX UR CRITTER on August 23, 2018, 09:36:38 PM
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I have no desire to bash any other company or product. I just want to share MY experience with an ECU reflash. And give a thumbs up to good service and a good product.
I searched the forum first and came across 3 options mentioned often and see no need to name them. Each charge $350 plus shipping, which to me is a good chunk of change.
I searched some more on the internet and found a place called Schnitz racing.
They offered a reflash to improve performance for $75 plus shipping.
I researched and debated, spoke to one of the $350 guys and he convinced me that I was trying to compare a Mercedes to a Yugo.. I was going to go with the more expensive one, but shipping and payment restrictions made it much more convenient to go with Schnitz. I figure for an all in price of $100 it was worth a try. the $300 difference is enough to buy a set of tires.
I should mention that the $75 is for stock bike. If you want it tuned to aftermarket pipes it is an additional $125
One of the complaints I heard of Schnitz is they are not great returning emails.. While this may or may not be true, they were very responsive via phone and the turn around on the unit was super quick. Shipped from Florida to Indiana on Friday and I had it back in my hands the next Thursday – total of $22 shipping.
Got home and went for a quick ride (started raining) but I could tell a difference immediately and felt a more powerful, smoother and more responsive bike. I am heading to the mountains next week and can’t wait to give it the full test.
Will give an update.
Just wanted to provide another option for riders who want to try the less expensive option first.
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Here’s the problem-
Unless you have used the other three tuners , you really don’t have anything other than stock tuning
to compare to.
I was pretty happy when I got Guhl tuning back in the day; it open the flies sooner and wow, bike felt stronger off the line. Yup, very very happy.
Then I got shoodsben mountain and wow, way better, better all across rpm range. I can’t say it’s any better or worse than Ivan’s , I’d have to pay $350+ to make that statement.
I guess you get my drift.
In my mind, before putting CC down on Schnitz , I’d remember that both Ivan and Steve probably have put more time into their tunes.
But who knows? Maybe Schnitz is better, but I’m not going spend the coin to find out.
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Here’s the problem- Unless you have used the other three tuners , you really don’t have anything other than stock tuning to compare to.
That is very true. And hard metrics such as dyno graphs, 0-60 times, and MPG can't show or explain all that good reflashing does (or doesn't do). Lots of extremely relevant things are subjective like that, though.
It is a shame the tuners all don't offer deep discounts to reflash those who already have one of their competitor's products, since most people (me included) have a hard time justifying the price/risk a second flash (much less a third time) and thus are likely to never become their customer, anyway. It would be a good industry for that model, since the ACTUAL flashing costs very little (the labor, shipping, and liability is small, it is the research and development that cost so much and need to be covered.... a lot like medications, books, movies, music). And doing so shows extreme confidence, since it will foster more reviews from people who really CAN compare stock to A and to B (and/or to C).
I think it would be very difficult to "quantify" the effectiveness of a flash. But if I had to just GUESS, I would say most any reflash will give you that 70-80% of "greatness." Which is why I strongly encourage ANY Concours owner to reflash- whatever product they choose is almost a certain huge positive. And I think the value of that is easily in the $300 range. But if seeking that last 20 to 30% and you are already at that 70-80% level, the value can't be in the $300 range ADDITIONAL anymore, at least not for many or perhaps most people. It is like spending $30 on an HD Bluray of a good movie and then being asked to fork out another $30 to buy a 4K Bluray of the same movie a few years later. (Someone the other day called me the "King of analogies" :) )
Competition is great, though! I really hope that if/when I ever do get a different bike (or next generation of Concours, if ever one happens), such a vibrant market for reflashing exists, because I just can't imagine being stuck with lackluster and non-linear performance and/or non-responsiveness and/or non-smoothness on any motorcycle at this point. And given the restrictions and compromises the bike manufacturers must make, I have no doubt that most, if not all, models will continue to be hobbled in one way or another.
Anyway, to the OP (original poster): Congrats on the jump and do keep us updated!
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Hmm, I didn't realize he had a Concours flash. He's just down the highway from me, and I had him do my GSXS-1000F. The difference was amazing. I know with the GSXS, he had one on the dyno and that's how he developed the flash. I might give him a call and ask him about the C14 one.
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To katata, i never said schnitz was better, obviously i cant compare. Just sharing that there was another option for cheap old coots like me.. I am happy to get maybe 50% of benefit for 20% of cost.. Percentages totally made up, but hopefully point made
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I am happy to get maybe 50% of benefit for 20% of cost.. Percentages totally made up, but hopefully point made.
Point made. :thumbs: ;)
Yeah, not a common theme in either C14 forum. Most want to think they have the best, and will tout that they do. That's how many of the typing flaming wars have started, especially on the other forum.
I see many other bikes in your signature FUC (hmm troublesome initials) FixUrC', however no mention of a KLR..so how far in your past was there one? I'm sure there was one back there somewhere in your past just from your statementabout 50% performance for 20% of the cost. ;D 8) That kind of thinking is pretty much ingrained/adapted into every KLR owner that's owned one for more than 6 months. :rotflmao:
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Here’s the problem-
Unless you have used the other three tuners , you really don’t have anything other than stock tuning
to compare to.
I was pretty happy when I got Guhl tuning back in the day; it open the flies sooner and wow, bike felt stronger off the line. Yup, very very happy.
Then I got shoodsben mountain and wow, way better, better all across rpm range. I can’t say it’s any better or worse than Ivan’s , I’d have to pay $350+ to make that statement.
I guess you get my drift.
In my mind, before putting CC down on Schnitz , I’d remember that both Ivan and Steve probably have put more time into their tunes.
But who knows? Maybe Schnitz is better, but I’m not going spend the coin to find out.
You're saying not comparing multiple flashes is a problem, but that's a whole lot more money. And where do you stop? Let's say you pay $350 for Steve's, then decide to try Guhl's for another $350, but maybe decide you actually like Steve's better. Oh, and here's another guy now, maybe Ivan, should you try his now for another $350?
For 75 bucks total, the OP is very happy with his performance gain. That's great, and doesn't seem like a problem.
At some point the Law of Diminishing Returns applies, and I suspect it would be immediately after the $75 OP just spent :thumbs: It's not like the stock C14 is slow or runs poorly, so for $75 OP woke his up and can feel it and is satisfied. For another $350, would he really be able to tell another performance increase, and would it be worth 4 times what he just paid. Doesn't seem likely.
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All depends on what schnitz does. If they only just open the flies, even though it will feel stronger off the line , there is still a lot of performance left of the table.
I didn’t pay $75 for Guhl, I paid $400. All they did was open flies.
Felt great. Shodaben cost $350 and had fuel and ( I think) timing tweaks.
It felt much stronger than Guhl.
Whether there is anything to gain after a $75 schnitz tune depends on whether they also altered timing/fuel and how effective it was.
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I didn’t pay $75 for Guhl, I paid $400. All they did was open flies.
I believe they also tweaked the fuel & timing maps. It is still pretty basic, however, at least compared to what I believe Steve (Shodaben) is doing. I am confident Steve is far more creative with the secondaries (and probably other maps) than Guhl (unless there are newer Guhl versions that I know about or have, which I kinda doubt).
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When I talked to Guhl , he said he touched up fuel , but very minor and did nothing at all to the timing.
In other words, what you’re getting is just earlier opening flies.
The diference between Guhl and shodaben is as big if not bigger than Guhl from stock.Guhl feels stronger than stock up to 2500rpm, but shodaben is stronger up to redline.
The dyno graphs show this, seat of the pants does too.
If schnitz has similar performance for $75, its a bargain.If it is just earlier flies, I’d rather pay the extra $275 for complete tune.
It’s scary easy to accidentally get the bike to pull a wheelie entering the freeway and I wouldn’t want to lose that. ;D
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Stop making me want it!
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Good thread and a lot of good answers here. I just wanted to say if somebody happens to live near Steve or Ivans shop they could probably go test drive their Flash. I know sometime this year I think it was Memorial Day weekend Ivan was offering demos of his Flash if you went to his shop in New York . I am not sure how he was doing it, if he had an extra ECU or if he was just letting you demo his bike.
It would be nice if they both offered a service whereas you can pay $50 to test-drive their Flash and the remaining balance say $300 if you decided to keep it.
I have Ivans Flash and I love it best $350 I ever spent. I'm sure there's not enough difference between Steve's or Ivans Flash to cause anybody to want to spend an extra $350, but if I had the Scnitz flash and I was only in for $75 well let's just say I am the kind of guy they would pay an extra 80% to get the remaining 20%. $350 is not a lot of money to me but to each their own.
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"well let's just say I am the kind of guy they would pay an extra 80% to get the remaining 20%."
I like the twist you put on that... and appreciate those that feel that way.. everyone I know calls me cheap- I prefer frugal..
anyway- it hit me that the benefit of different flashes, like so many things; seats, windshields, etc. is based on user preferences.
We all prefer different things from our riding experience, my bike for example has never seen red line.
Anyway for those that asked what Schnitz says they do, from
the paper that came back with my ECU says
FEATURES:
Increased rev limiter +500rpm - i dont care
Top speed limiter removed - i dont care
Gear based fuel trims removed gears 1-3 - sounds good
Secondary throttle blades open more aggressively and stay open- sounds good
I am itching to get back on her for more flash testing and to test my brand new touring seat. It has been raining for almost 3 straight days... South Florida in summer
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Sounds like the only thing they did performance wise, is open those flies early. Still, at least it’s $300 less than Guhl.
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I want to know how all these bikes become wheelie machines. I don't think I have ever floated the wheel on my stock or flashed bike. What am I doing wrong ?
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I want to know how all these bikes become wheelie machines. I don't think I have ever floated the wheel on my stock or flashed bike. What am I doing wrong ?
It is more what you are doing right :) Doesn't matter if it is flashed or not.
If you want to wheelie, just turn off traction control, shift your weight back and use a lot of throttle and RPM, especially from a stop. Pretty much any reasonable bike can do a wheelie, at least by dumping the clutch. I have NEVER attempted that (and never will), but have come close, a tiny "floater" on front wheel, by accident, a few times (and that was with TC on).
I don't think one can "stoppie" on the Gen2, because ABS will not allow it, and unlike traction control, ABS can't be turned off. Even despite that (like Gen1), the C14 is heavy and has a long wheelbase, making it very difficult.
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I don't think one can "stoppie" on the Gen2, because ABS will not allow it, and unlike traction control, ABS can't be turned off. Even despite that (like Gen1), the C14 is heavy and has a long wheelbase, making it very difficult.
This is an old pic. Definitely not me! This must be a Gen 1. I don’t even know if it’s legit, but it’s a cool pic nonetheless.
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I want to know how all these bikes become wheelie machines. I don't think I have ever floated the wheel on my stock or flashed bike. What am I doing wrong ?
You must be doing something wrong! All I have to do on mine is grab a handful of throttle at 3K-4K RPM's in 1st gear and it will easily lift the front wheel with K-TRAC off.
No clutch action needed, nor pulling back on the bars, or any other heroics.
It would do it stock too, but not near as easy.
I'll also add when I say grab a handful, do it quickly, don't just roll on the throttle, but snatch it!
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This must be a Gen 1.
It's a BMW. ???
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It's a BMW. ???
You beat me to it. I believe it is an R1200RT. But, in fairness, it is a large, sport-tourer, so at least the physics are probably similar.
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Wot's all this about flame wars? First I am hearing of it.....
:rotflmao:
Though of late things do seem to have been a lot better.
Back on the subject at hand, it is just a typical human condition that most of us tout a product we like and somehow or other, without a shred of evidence or real knowledge, proclaim one better than the rest or the others without ever having owned or even used any competitive products. Lots of people have different flashes but few seem to have had more than one, and far fewer yet have had all or even most of them. So the only factual thing that <most> users can say is that they like or dislike the flash they have and point out that particular ones' features and / or flaws. As I said, pretty typical human nature and we tend to do it with all products; I guess my favorite is when someone has a problem with a given product, often times it seems to be a vehicle of some sort, he / she then goes on to proclaim ALL of the vehicles made by that company are deficient and further specify those deficiencies; for example, someone has a transmission failure on, say, a Buick and somehow ALL GM products are 'known' to have 'bad transmissions' or 'inferior transmissions compared to Brand X'. In the mass production world, I like to call it the 'one in a row' syndrome: set up a production line, tweak it for as long as it takes, make one acceptable product (part or an entire assembly such as a car), pronounce it good and hit the gigantic green GO button and run a million of them. :-)
Brian
.... That's how many of the typing flaming wars have started, especially on the other forum.
<snip>
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Hello Everyone
Wanted to give an update regarding the Schnitz ECU reflash.
I noticed a difference right away, it seems more responsive right off of stop. The thing that kept coming to mind was that the bike seemed less restricted.
We rode for about 50 miles mostly highway . I found myself riding faster and at a higher rpm than normal. I usually keep the bike between 4-5 k in 5th gear. That seems the smoothest for cruising with the wife on back. Today I was consistently in the 5500-6500k range in 4th gear and it felt as smooth. I found myself getting into triple digits without even trying.
It felt as if shifting was some how smoother. Bottom line – it is definitely an improvement, worth $75. The real test will be my 1000 mile mountain trip next week.
One of the things that I wanted from the flash was to remove some of the subtle vibes in bars and seat.. This did not seem to help in that area.
I often feel that people exaggerate how great a product is. That is the feeling I got when people described Steve and Ivan’s flash. Kept hearing the words “day and night” difference etc. Well that is not what I experienced so I am still curious about Steve or Ivan’s. I am going to see if a used ECU from another bike can be flashed for my bike so I can compare them .
I am willing to admit that Steve, Ivan’s and Guhl reflash may be “better” and have more development time behind them, but I am sure glad that people have an option that is 1/5 the cost. As someone else mentioned, the competition will be good
Also tried the Kawi touring seat today- very intrigued, will need some more back to back comparisons with my Russell DL.
But the touring is definitely better than stock for both rider and passenger regarding sliding forward and we both noticed that it eats up bumps, making for a more comfortable ride.
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You beat me to it. I believe it is an R1200RT. But, in fairness, it is a large, sport-tourer, so at least the physics are probably similar.
Doh!!
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Doh!!
Awww it's OK, we understand how it is. After you guys retire, all you can see is the uniform. The days of being a professional observer are gone. :salute: :chugbeer:
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I often feel that people exaggerate how great a product is. That is the feeling I got when people described Steve and Ivan’s flash. Kept hearing the words “day and night” difference etc. Well that is not what I experienced so I am still curious about Steve or Ivan’s. I am going to see if a used ECU from another bike can be flashed for my bike so I can compare them .
You can find a used engine ecu on flea-bay pretty cheap. I think you would have to take it to a dealer or find someone with a KDS tool to program the KIPASS ecu to recognize it.
Also the 2015-2018 may be different or at least the programming is different to recognize the O2 sensors, also fuel maps may be different between model years
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“ am willing to admit that Steve, Ivan’s and Guhl reflash may be “better” and have more development time behind them, but I am sure glad that people have an option that is 1/5 the cost. As someone else mentioned, the competition will be good”
Guhl will be no different than what you have. But, I think you’re seeing for yourself that all the gains you see are simply from opening the flies sooner. Without tweaks to timing and fuel, your ho/tq is still same as stock.
Steve’s tune will give 19hp more at peak. That , along with hp/tq gains across the range, is something you can definitely feel. Eventually, you’ll get the urge to pony up more $ to get that power
that schnitz left on the table.
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I often feel that people exaggerate how great a product is. That is the feeling I got when people described Steve and Ivan’s flash. Kept hearing the words “day and night” difference etc. Well that is not what I experienced so I am still curious about Steve or Ivan’s. I am going to see if a used ECU from another bike can be flashed for my bike so I can compare them .
I completely agree with that first sentence. Is there a night and day difference between a typical 250cc bike and a 1400cc bike? Yes there is. Is there a night and day difference between a stock c14 and one that makes more (what 19Hp?) power and runs smoother in the lower rpm range. Not in my opinion. Perhaps people need to stand out in the sun at noon and then return to the same spot at midnight to refresh themselves as to what a night and day difference really means. After the Guhl flash and all the rave reviews it was getting (back then), I was thinking about the story of the emperor's clothes after I had received mine. I wasn't even sure it had been really flashed. Now when I got the decel flash from SISF, it was instantly noticeable. Definitely an improvement, but night and day difference?...not in my opinion. Perhaps folks are confusing night and day difference from above the arctic circle with that below the arctic circle?
I still agree with the 50% (+/- 10-15%) performance gain for 20% of the cost, it isn't a bad investment. Not very noticeable to my insensitive a$$, but to each their own (a$$ sensitivity that is).
One of the things that I wanted from the flash was to remove some of the subtle vibes in bars and seat.. This did not seem to help in that area.
I'm not sure that can be fixed by a flash, maybe. I think some have re-torqued the engine mounting bolts to find relief in that area. Might be something to look into after your trip. I've never noticed it on mine, but then perhaps my a$$ insensitivity extends through up to my fingertips? My wife says I'm totally an insensitive a$$, but then she loves me, so she might be biased.
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But, I think you’re seeing for yourself that all the gains you see are simply from opening the flies sooner.
I will confident that it is not any actual increase in peak horse power that anyone will notice. The gains are usually small on what is already a lot of horsepower, and few people ever go WOT at high-enough RPM, anyway to ever realize such power. It is the delivery of the existing power and the *immediacy* thereof... the elimination of the lack of responsiveness, that is so shockingly noticeable after any flash that "fixes" the secondary flies (and thereby removing the restrictions imposed by fuel economy regulations, noise regulations, and emissions control; most of which Kawasaki MUST comply with; and perhaps they did a poor job at it in the process). Everything else is a side-bonus..... and those side bonuses given by a GOOD and well-developed flash can be many and quite desirable, but still pale in comparison to the elephant in the room (the faster and more complete opening of the flies).
For this next part, I can only speak in speculation, but I *believe* the Guhl flash has little/few side-bonuses. Of course I noticed and was thrilled by the elephant in the room; I doubt an extra 10 or 15 or even 20 peak horse power would matter much for me. However, there are many places in the programming where it seems "rough", imprecise, overshoots, or is jerky (not smooth) or a little unpredictable. Those are the things I am disappointed in (and noticed more after years of riding) and believe a flash like Steve's would probably address. Putting on a Throttle Tamer did help, especially with the insanely oversensitive throttle at lower input and lower RPM. But I think that only gave a partial solution and to only one of the things I noticed that aren't quite right.
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Power at start is psychologically noticeable. That is one reason why some cars come from the factory with touchy fuel pedals- that burst off the line makes it seem faster. Some tuners will tune an off/on (not gradual) response off the line to make it feel quicker.
But the difference between Guhl (and likely schnitz) and Steves' is pretty noticeable. I live at 5000' alt and to me, riding with this tune, bike has same power as it did with Guhl at sea level.
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After the Guhl flash and all the rave reviews it was getting (back then), I was thinking about the story of the emperor's clothes after I had received mine. I wasn't even sure it had been really flashed.
For me, it [Guhl flash] was a huge change and I was sure it was there. I wasn't expecting a "totally different bike" kind of experience, though. But it immediately got rid of that horrible lag and "sag" in the performance curve at lower RPM that was driving me crazy. I had the EXACT SAME issue with my ZRX-11- it felt the same way, until I installed a jet kit and WHAM, it was just linear after that. So if you know what it is was that was annoying, and had reasonable expectations, it was extremely noticeable and a "huge" change, at least with my driving style. If you have a different driving style or weren't bothered by the stock behavior to start with, it might be much less noticeable.
Now when I got the decel flash from SISF, it was instantly noticeable. Definitely an improvement, but night and day difference?...not in my opinion. Perhaps folks are confusing night and day difference from above the arctic circle with that below the arctic circle?
:) Well, subjectivity always comes across with wild variations. Kinda like explaining pain or how delicious something is. I know for sure that lots of things that annoy me or drive me crazy don't phase many other people at all, and vice-versa.
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Yes, it is all very subjective. I have found the exact same thing with various people reporting on how well a Rostra works on a C-14 for example, some think it is wonderful while some seem a little disappointing that it is not flawless. Exactly as you said, how does one measure pain, food, etc., etc.
I will say that I have not found any 'day and night' differences in C-14's regardless of tune or flash (though of course I have not tried them all). But I did notice a huge difference in an '08 ZX 14 once the 'flies were removed AND it was tuned on a dyno with a Power Commander. An acquaintance had a new ZX and frankly both of us were underwhelmed with its performance in low to mid- range power, throttle response and so forth. I removed the 'flies and honestly, while it perhaps did get better, it was just not impressive, at least to either of us. But after adding a P.C. with a custom map, it was transformed into the bike I expected it to be in the first place- very impressive, far more so than tuning a C-14 for example.
I was happy with removing the 'flies and a P.C. III with a custom map on my own bike, coupled with removing all the slack from the throttle cables which I personally found to contribute more to the bike's low- speed jerkiness than the actual mixture tuning. But just like you, I would not say it was suddenly something outrageous, just more like the 1400 cc bike I expected when I bought it in the first place. I found the stock bike neutered below, say, 5K RPM, and removing the 'flies and re-tuning the mixture eliminated that situation.... IMO of course.
Brian
For me, it [Guhl flash] was a huge change and I was sure it was there. I wasn't expecting a "totally different bike" kind of experience, though. But it immediately got rid of that horrible lag and "sag" in the performance curve at lower RPM that was driving me crazy. I had the EXACT SAME issue with my ZRX-11- it felt the same way, until I installed a jet kit and WHAM, it was just linear after that. So if you know what it is was that was annoying, and had reasonable expectations, it was extremely noticeable and a "huge" change, at least with my driving style. If you have a different driving style or weren't bothered by the stock behavior to start with, it might be much less noticeable.
:) Well, subjectivity always comes across with wild variations. Kinda like explaining pain or how delicious something is. I know for sure that lots of things that annoy me or drive me crazy don't phase many other people at all, and vice-versa.
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The real issue here is "the black box effect". Folks can't see the programming, so they can easily think it's all the same.
I made the comparison of a Mercedes and a Yugo to the OP. The point was that they are both cars, but they are not the same. Your C-14 isn't like a Hyosung 250, but they are both motorcycles. When it comes to flashes, since folks can't see the programming and haven't experienced what can be achieved, it's easy to say it's all the same. All flashes are the same... but they're not.
I have written before that just opening the secondaries sooner will yield the largest change / gain in the new tuning. This isn't hard to do, kind of like removing the secondaries, which costs 0.00. To be honest, I gained more %age of change in the first couple of days tuning the c-14 than I have in the ensuing YEARS of constant refinement. So I guess this supports the 80/20 statements earlier in this thread.
Even in my own flashes, I have 2 diverging styles. The difference is primarily in the secondary controls. Although both make the same peak power, how they get there, in throttle %age, throttle feel and control, are different. Some folks prefer one style over the other, to the point that it is very polarizing. But as been stated, if you haven't felt the differences, you simply cannot say "this is better"... and then in reality, it's only better FOR YOU. To that end I will allow folks an opportunity to change to another flash for little or no $$, depending on the situation. Most folks DON'T take me up on that. Most folks, after discussing the options have a sense of their riding style, so they pick one and it's a done deal.
What can be done, and what sets flashes apart from each other? While everyone wants to concentrate on fueling, one huge forgotten parameter is timing. Timing will increase power, smoothness, and fuel economy, often to a much greater effect than fueling changes. 75.00 flashes don't have any timing changes... so there is that, but for a tuner that's a pretty easy way to go. Timing can be friend or foe... leave it alone and you don't have to deal with that. The product is not optimized in any manner, but the tuner saves on the work load. The best tunes have extensive timing work, which isn't done haphazardly. That's just one place that sets tunes apart.
If you've been around the Concours, you know what exhaust options are available. Fueling needs to be optimized based on those options. There's only 1 full system I know of in the US for the the Concours... the AreaP. All other full systems are zx14 systems. We all know the slipon players, maybe what, 5 options? They will all react the same, so fueling is consistent with slipon changes, But one must wonder, when a flash is being offered with a couple hundred dollar fueling upgrade for exhausts that don't even exist for the Concours how much development time went into that. Things that make you go HMMM.
How come some folks feel "night and day" differences and some do not? That's pretty easy... the more of the throttle / powerband you use, the more you'll notice the changes. Take a guy who never really rev's the bike, generally easy on the throttle, etc... he's not going to experience anywhere near what the rider who is using from idle to redline, and zero to !00% throttle. Easy riders may not feel a flash did much for them. it may not have. There's only so much that can be accomplished in any given narrow area of operation.
One of the better things I've read in this thread is there's some knowledge of the history of Concours flashing. Guhl was the big player for a long time. We have to be thankful for that. Don let us know that things could be better, and was willing to put in the effort to do so. Had Don stayed after it with constant innovation and dedication to the Concours community, there likely would be no competition for him. But that's not what happened, and here we are now. There are flashes available right now that are considerably better than 1 year ago. This is an evolving art. Certainly it is for me, and I think any tuner who wants to take pride in their work. I'm not trying to make any of this sound like a commercial, but it is the truth. The fact is that while all the black boxes look the same, what's getting stuffed inside of them is not.
Steve
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Thank you, Steve.
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I took my ECU down to Ryan's place yesterday and had him flash it. It's not a crazy huge difference, but there is a difference. Definitely worth $75. I'm happy with it.
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Quick update after a week in the mountains.
I can say that I am very happy for the improvement.
I wasn't positive I felt what I thought I did until my wife confirmed it by saying, " i don't feel the shifts anymore". I couldn't understand how a flash could make my shift lever engage smoother- it just clicks in like butter and the abruptness in between shifts is gone. Riding 2 up I was always conscience of trying to get a smooth shift as not to disrupt the wife.. Now I dont have to worry about that.
I rode another c14 for 10 minutes with a different flash- and he rode my bike- neither of us could feel i big difference between them.
I know the more expensive flashes have a lot more tweaks and time in them, but for $100, the best bang for the buck outside of my $20 Vista throttle lock.
Ride safe
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Whatever is “ best bang for the buck” is subjective . If I were to have a choice between a open the flies only tune for $75 or a full tune for $350, I’d consider the latter to be the better bang for the buck. Beside seat of the pants, where else can you get an extra 14 hp for the difference of $275?
And, I say this after riding with a open the flies earlier tune for four years and a complete tune for the last 2000 miles .
The same goes for a throttle lock- I’d never trade my $800 mccruise for a $20 throttle lock, I’d much prefer that $780 to be below the left hand grip than in my pocket . By how well it works, I think it’s a better use of $.
Of course that’s just my opinion .
I think these mods make the bike feel like a different animal. My right hand no longer hurts at the end of a long ride, I get better mpg ( which is much appreciated on a long ride) and the bike has more power ( again , appreciated on long rides when the bike is weighted down with luggage).
. But, if you ever get curious and get a mccruise and a full tune, the $
spent on the schnitz and throttle lock is just a waste.
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Not a waste...an education. We don't know until we try.
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Don’t know what?
Spend and extra $275, you get 14+ more hp.
Spend $780 more on mccruise , you get a real functioning cruise control unit, not
some pos throttle lock contraption that belongs in the landfill.
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The OP got a throttle lock to help on long rides, a flash that he feels is a pretty good improvement over stock and still has $1055.00 to put into suspension upgrades.
Sounds like a win, win, win to me! ;)
It's all in how you look at it. 8)
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Yep. Lots of ways to look at things. Choice is a good thing to have!
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If the only type of meat you have eaten was cheap hamburger , that would be the ultimate end all cut of meat.
Until you encounter a prime grade rib eye.....
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If the only type of meat you have eaten was cheap hamburger , that would be the ultimate end all cut of meat.
Until you encounter a prime grade rib eye.....
Unless you can't afford prime grade rib eye.
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Whatever is “ best bang for the buck” is subjective . If I were to have a choice between a open the flies only tune for $75 or a full tune for $350, I’d consider the latter to be the better bang for the buck. Beside seat of the pants, where else can you get an extra 14 hp for the difference of $275?
And, I say this after riding with a open the flies earlier tune for four years and a complete tune for the last 2000 miles .
The same goes for a throttle lock- I’d never trade my $800 mccruise for a $20 throttle lock, I’d much prefer that $780 to be below the left hand grip than in my pocket . By how well it works, I think it’s a better use of $.
Of course that’s just my opinion .
I think these mods make the bike feel like a different animal. My right hand no longer hurts at the end of a long ride, I get better mpg ( which is much appreciated on a long ride) and the bike has more power ( again , appreciated on long rides when the bike is weighted down with luggage).
. But, if you ever get curious and get a mccruise and a full tune, the $
spent on the schnitz and throttle lock is just a waste.
Was the above not education through experimentation?
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If the only type of meat you have eaten was cheap hamburger , that would be the ultimate end all cut of meat.
Until you encounter a prime grade rib eye.....
Not everyone has the luxury of a Champaign budget. Don't knock a frugal budget and individual solutions that satisfies the needs of others. You're making yourself look like an elitist a$$. Just my $0.02 worth.
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Elists? Hardly. I’m just saying it’s a waste of money to buy something, then spend more $ in the future. Spend $75 on a tune and enjoy it, but there is a good chance that you’ll how much better a full tune is, look at dynographs, then give and upgrade. Doing it right the first time would have saved $75.
Btw, tuning via programming with a power commander is inferior to a reprogram. One reason is that
Power programmer can’t touch timing. We all now know that the flies should be left in and bike be given a proper tuning; not a badge gimmick box.
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Sounds like the OP is happy with what he got for the price he paid to me. ?? I would consider that a 'win'. Of course I understand what you are saying about something else being 'potentially better for that particular person' but as always, each man measures his own greed (meaning we all assign all things a value unique to each of us) so it is really impossible to know what anything / everything is worth to another person. Plus one persons' "huge" difference is always another persons' 'meh' difference.
Personally, I like the earlier comparison regarding throttle locks and cruise controls: many people are satisfied with a throttle lock. Some demand a true C.C. and even then, there are the two choices of the less expensive and somewhat more difficult to install Rostra vs. the much more expensive and somewhat easier to install McCruise. And all three choices remain readily available and apparently sell well enough, meaning the 'best' one cannot be chosen for everyone or at least two of those choices would have disappeared from the market by now. My own personal choice is the Rostra; I want a true C.C. but am not willing to spend the additional money for what I believe to be the "somewhat" better (my opinion) McCruise.
Besides, always glad to hear when someone is pleased with a purchase or situation- much better than hearing about buyers' remorse or the classic 'If only I had done XXX instead of YYY'.
Brian
Elists? Hardly. I’m just saying it’s a waste of money to buy something, then spend more $ in the future. Spend $75 on a tune and enjoy it, but there is a good chance that you’ll how much better a full tune is, look at dynographs, then give and upgrade. Doing it right the first time would have saved $75.
Btw, tuning via programming with a power commander is inferior to a reprogram. One reason is that
Power programmer can’t touch timing. We all now know that the flies should be left in and bike be given a proper tuning; not a badge gimmick box.
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The OP got a throttle lock to help on long rides, a flash that he feels is a pretty good improvement over stock and still has $1055.00 to put into suspension upgrades.
Sounds like a win, win, win to me! ;)
It's all in how you look at it. 8)
+1
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If the only type of meat you have eaten was cheap hamburger , that would be the ultimate end all cut of meat.
Until you encounter a prime grade rib eye.....
How do you know I haven't "eaten prime grade rid eye" ?? For what it's worth i have experienced OE cruise on a GW and Electra Glide..
I still prefer my POS vista.. for real...
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The Indian cruise must be Kobe beef then as it's the best I've ever encountered in any vehicle I've owned.
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How do you know I haven't "eaten prime grade rid eye" ?? For what it's worth i have experienced OE cruise on a GW and Electra Glide..
I still prefer my POS vista.. for real...
That’s as credible a claim as the kid on the street who laid out his bike and then claims “ I meant to do that!”
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My cc's purpose is to keep the speed at the highest setting possible and still cruise under the radar
Even in flat country a throttle lock didn't work for me.
Any remember the caterpillar o ring thing we used on the c10?
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The O-ring works on a C-14 too, but not quite as well.
Ride safe, Ted
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My cc's purpose is to keep the speed at the highest setting possible and still cruise under the radar
Even in flat country a throttle lock didn't work for me.
Any remember the caterpillar o ring thing we used on the c10?
I use mine to keep my arthritic right hand from hurting . It’s amazing how well it keeps the same speed up and down hills, with fiddling. The mountain tune with reprogrammed flies might deserve credit for the downhill performance.
Op lost credibility when he said he preferred throttle lock to factory cruise.
It’s Street Vibrations here in Reno now. You think I’ll see any HD bikes with factory cruise and throttle
locks ? Not a chance!
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Glad that's over ;)
I started with the Guhl flash, Steve's is way better, I like dealing with Steve because He's a homeboy,
all his work with the C10 over the years speaks loud about his commitment to our rides and his there is
more on the table never-ending drive to improve his Flashes is his passion.
Steve has been loyal to the Concours bikes for 15 or so years, his life revolves around them that's why
I'll be dropping my bike off to him this winter for a thorough going over, I believe in specialization and
you can't do better than some who has a passion for what they do.
PS I LOVE my McCruise :chugbeer:
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I want to know how all these bikes become wheelie machines. I don't think I have ever floated the wheel on my stock or flashed bike. What am I doing wrong ?
You may find this interesting;
My 2008 C14 would flip over backwards with a full twist of the throttle in low gear. (slip-on)
My 2009 C14 would just lift the front tire maybe an inch? (even after flies removed with slip-on)
My 2011 C14 is somewhere in between but no where near going over backwards. (stock)
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75 bucks will get me the two things I'm looking for;
Gear Based Fuel Trims Removed from Gears 1-3.
Secondary Throttle Blades Open More Aggressively And Stay Open.
And based on reviewers statements;
smoother shifting, which means to me that fuel shut-off on deceleration has been eliminated.++
You do not have to change the rpm limit, you can select not to...
I see people treating Schnitz Racing like a red headed step child, any body bother to look into this guys history? (Just a thought)
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I have. Bought lots of HP stuff for the Z1s and KZs. Had them bore a few blocks for me. Great people to deal with and mostly focus on the drag racer market. That said I am very happy with Steves flash and can say nothing about the Schnitz one since I have not used it.
Wayne
75 bucks will get me the two things I'm looking for;
Gear Based Fuel Trims Removed from Gears 1-3.
Secondary Throttle Blades Open More Aggressively And Stay Open.
And based on reviewers statements;
smoother shifting, which means to me that fuel shut-off on deceleration has been eliminated.++
I see people treating Schnitz Racing like a red headed step child, any body bother to look into this guys history? (Just a thought)
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One of the conditions wife made for giving me the green light to buy a new c14 was that she get a tummy tuck .
There are two basic types: mini tuck and the full old school style . The surgeon said he generally doesn’t do the mini as it doesn’t save the client much $ and isn’t as good.
A mini is simply removing a band of stretched out skin, reconnect and it’s done . It looks fine. But, for a little more, you get the full.
In the full, after removing the flabby skin, the abdominal muscles are cut horizontal. Then a stitched up sort of corset is made, the muscles are pulled super tight.
The difference? The full gave a sculpted stomach, so firm that you could bounce a quarter on it. Our daughters thought it unfair their mother had a better stomach, despite the both of them being teens with no kids.
We are happy we spent the extra coin to get a much better result. I think wife would have been happy with mini, as long as she didn’t meet up with someone with a full tuck. Then, she’d regret not getting the full deal.
The same applies to c14 tuning.
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Interesting analogy.
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One of the conditions wife made for giving me the green light to buy a new c14 was that she get a tummy tuck .
There are two basic types: mini tuck and the full old school style . The surgeon said he generally doesn’t do the mini as it doesn’t save the client much $ and isn’t as good.
A mini is simply removing a band of stretched out skin, reconnect and it’s done . It looks fine. But, for a little more, you get the full.
In the full, after removing the flabby skin, the abdominal muscles are cut horizontal. Then a stitched up sort of corset is made, the muscles are pulled super tight.
The difference? The full gave a sculpted stomach, so firm that you could bounce a quarter on it. Our daughters thought it unfair their mother had a better stomach, despite the both of them being teens with no kids.
We are happy we spent the extra coin to get a much better result. I think wife would have been
happy with mini, as long as she didn’t meet up with someone with a full tuck. Then, she’d regret not getting the full deal.
The same applies to c14 tuning.
Does this ECU flash make my ass look fat???
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Interesting analogy.
yep, I thought the exact same 2 words...
then I thought about it... and I truly understand the reason that word is spelled as it is...in some cases.
and it does apply to reasoning...
damn, I guess diet, and situps were out of the question.
:banghead: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :nuts: :nuts: :censored:
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75 bucks will get me the two things I'm looking for;
Gear Based Fuel Trims Removed from Gears 1-3.
Secondary Throttle Blades Open More Aggressively And Stay Open.
Cool... except there are no gear based fuel trims to be removed.
Yes, I know for sure, we both use the same interface equipment.
Look at their drop down box for available exhaust system fuel mapping. very impressive... probably 20 different systems supported.
it's only a small issue there is that those systems do not exist
steve
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75 bucks will get me the two things I'm looking for;
Gear Based Fuel Trims Removed from Gears 1-3.
Secondary Throttle Blades Open More Aggressively And Stay Open.
Cool... except there are no gear based fuel trims to be removed.
steve
I don't have any special equipment or tuner knowledge/experience to prove anything, however I've been reading and following forums about the C14 for almost 8years and I've never heard of any special fuel trim for 1st-3rd gear. I did hear that the secondary flies opened differently for the lower gears and that those who didn't want to remove the flies could buy a device (https://www.healtech-electronics.com/products/gipro/gpat/) that would fool the ECU into thinking it was always in 6th gear....but then that is really covered by the more aggressive opening of the secondaries so perhaps you are only getting that one thing for your 75 bucks. However if you're happy with that and have other uses for the extra coinage on hand then more power to you.
I wish I had only paid $75 for my Guhl flash when I purchased it. I'm pretty sure that's all I got out of it was what you did, more aggressive fly opening. Only I paid a lot more.
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I wish I had only paid $75 for my Guhl flash when I purchased it. I'm pretty sure that's all I got out of it was what you did, more aggressive fly opening. Only I paid a lot more.
Me too
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[Since my post on that the weather has cooled down a lot., 40s. On my last ride I felt the front wheel hit the ground twice. I had the Trac control on. Never had that happen in the other 25000 I have put on the bike. More power in the cold? Or better traction? I don't know.
Wayne
quote author=Gabriel link=topic=23665.msg297308#msg297308 date=1540904449]
You may find this interesting;
My 2008 C14 would flip over backwards with a full twist of the throttle in low gear. (slip-on)
My 2009 C14 would just lift the front tire maybe an inch? (even after flies removed with slip-on)
My 2011 C14 is somewhere in between but no where near going over backwards. (stock)
[/quote]
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[Since my post on that the weather has cooled down a lot., 40s. On my last ride I felt the front wheel hit the ground twice. I had the Trac control on. Never had that happen in the other 25000 I have put on the bike. More power in the cold? Or better traction? I don't know.
Wayne
It's more power. Cold /dry air has more oxygen in it, and can make more power. It's certainly not better traction, the colder a road / tire is, the more slippery it is. Steve
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Cool... except there are no gear based fuel trims to be removed.
Yes, I know for sure, we both use the same interface equipment.
Look at their drop down box for available exhaust system fuel mapping. very impressive... probably 20 different systems supported.
it's only a small issue there is that those systems do not exist
steve
I of course don't know except if you pull the flies it makes a big difference in the part throttle response . Maybe he's opening those plates up early or further?
There is one thing for sure I will know for sure before to long if what he does make a difference.
My bike is stock so all those glass pack tunings won't matter to me....
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One of the complaints I heard of Schnitz is they are not great returning emails.. While this may or may not be true, they were very responsive via phone and the turn around on the unit was super quick.
I have emailed him three times and he has always returned my emails with-in 24 hours or less. (he does not know me, I do not know him)
You mentioned that you were experiencing some engine vibes;
I noticed I had/have some also between 3500 and 6K, I wanted to re-torque the engine mounts but i just had the fairings off last week and did not want to pull them again so I just checked the rear bolts.
They were really off, One was hand tight at most and the other was in excess of 50 Lbs (should be 11lbs). So I tightened them to the correct torque and rode the bike. About half of what I felt is gone so the next time I have the fairings off I will do it correctly as per the manual... just a thought you may want to check yours.