Author Topic: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does  (Read 18940 times)

Offline gPink

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2015, 02:03:32 PM »
I guess it's a matter of who do you trust more with your life, yourself or some complete stranger who doesn't give a damn about you and is an hour away eating donuts.

Offline Miss Silvera

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2015, 05:16:41 PM »
. If there weren't any guns in the world at all, it wouldn't cause more people to die. :P

Stay safe guys! :)


and I disagree....no way to prove that I suppose....but there were a whole lot of humans killed by others before guns came into being....
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Offline tweeter55

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2015, 07:01:01 PM »
Personally, I feel safer living in a place where no-one is armed with firearms.
 
When you find that place, let us know. I don't think it exists anywhere close by.
Got to give everyone in this thread credit for reasonable thoughts and conversations. I fall on the side of the 2nd Amendment and not taking any more freedoms away than they already have in that respect...should give us back a few as a matter of fact. (Like that will ever happen) :chugbeer:
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Offline Nosmo

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2015, 07:49:17 PM »
Well, I'm confused. 

Tzigane's profile says he's in Rotterdam, Netherlands.  OK.  But here are some firearm stats for the Netherlands:

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/netherlands

"The estimated total number of guns (both licit and illicit) held by civilians in the Netherlands is 510,000."

"The estimated rate of private gun ownership (both licit and illicit) in the Netherlands is 3.91 firearms per 100 people."

"The number of registered guns in the Netherlands is reported to be 330,000."

That leaves about 180,000 unregistered firearms.  If I read it right, those unregistered  arms are illegal.

Tzigane, I think some of your 16.8 million neighbors may have some hidden toys. ;)  I hope they are all friendly.

Actually, the Netherlands is one country I have always wanted to visit, but probably won't ever get around to.  It is likely safer than where I live in any case, guns aside.

Be safe!
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Offline maxtog

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2015, 06:45:55 AM »
Personally, I feel safer living in a place where no-one is armed with firearms.

And there is the #1 misconception right there about "gun control".  Making guns illegal takes them out of the hands of law-abiding citizens.  It does *NOT* make society gunless.  I guarantee you that criminals will still be armed, they will always find a way.  Government officials will be armed also (police, military, and spook agencies).

As long as it is possible for humans to make weapons, they will be made and they will be distributed.  And I, for one, feel much safer knowing that I live in a country where the normal, moral, good, law-abiding citizens are allowed to protect themselves.
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Offline gPink

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2015, 07:21:36 AM »
And there is the #1 misconception right there about "gun control".  Making guns illegal takes them out of the hands of law-abiding citizens.  It does *NOT* make society gunless.  I guarantee you that criminals will still be armed, they will always find a way.  Government officials will be armed also (police, military, and spook agencies).

As long as it is possible for humans to make weapons, they will be made and they will be distributed.  And I, for one, feel much safer knowing that I live in a country where the normal, moral, good, law-abiding citizens are allowed to protect themselves.
...and others.

Thank God for good men willing to do extreme violence.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2015, 09:46:36 AM »
 I just saw an article that claimed Massachusetts has the 2nd lowest gun fatalities nationwide. Sure, I can see that, it's hard to get a gun in MA. But nobody looks any deeper than the headline. What was the rate of violent homicides? If it runs with the national average, then the gun issue is a moot point. Killed by a knife or shovel is just as dead.

  The real problem is folks who don't own guns don't understand why others do. They see a gun in the hands of civilians strictly in an offensive usage, though they want the police armed for defensive use. The understand you can kill someone with a kitchen knife or a shovel, or a car, but "hey - I use those things almost everyday - you can't take it away from me - I didn't kill anyone with my car / knife / shovel today" . They just fail to apply that thought process to the person who  has a gun for defensive purposes. Steve

Offline gPink

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2015, 09:56:14 AM »
From 2013...http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2013/02/17/the-nation-toughest-gun-control-law-made-massachusetts-less-safe/3845k7xHzkwTrBWy4KpkEM/story.html

IN 1998, Massachusetts passed what was hailed as the toughest gun-control legislation in the country. Among other stringencies, it banned semiautomatic “assault” weapons, imposed strict new licensing rules, prohibited anyone convicted of a violent crime or drug trafficking from ever carrying or owning a gun, and enacted severe penalties for storing guns unlocked.

The 1998 legislation did cut down, quite sharply, on the legal use of guns in Massachusetts. Within four years, the number of active gun licenses in the state had plummeted. “There were nearly 1.5 million active gun licenses in Massachusetts in 1998,” the AP reported. “In June [2002], that number was down to just 200,000.” The author of the law, state Senator Cheryl Jacques, was pleased that the Bay State’s stiff new restrictions had made it possible to “weed out the clutter.”

Since 1998, gun crime in Massachusetts has gotten worse, not better. In 2011, Massachusetts recorded 122 murders committed with firearms, the Globe reported this month — “a striking increase from the 65 in 1998.” Other crimes rose too. Between 1998 and 2011, robbery with firearms climbed 20.7 percent. Aggravated assaults jumped 26.7 percent.

and one it goes...the AntiGunCrowd will never admit they're wrong...

Offline Tzigane

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2015, 10:57:38 AM »
Very interesting. Switzerland also has a lot of people with guns, but they all get mandatory training too.

I'm not pro or against by the way, I don't have enough knowledge of the matter to support any position or form an actual opinion yet. :)

The idea that other object can be used as weapons too is flawed as an argument. A gun is specifically designed to effectively kill another human from a distance. A tool like a shed or a car has a different and practical purpose and is therefore less likely to be banned. Restricted though. Hence the driver's licences, and police and laws that control safety and such.

Sure there are (illegal) guns here in the Netherlands too. The chances of actually being shot are absurdly small though, so I don't ever feel the need to carry a gun myself to "protect myself". Just like I don't think it's needed to wear a helmet when walking down the street, in case anyone dropped a potted plant from a window. :P
I have never been, and I have not ever known anyone who has been in a situation that would have ended better if there were legal guns involved. Furthmore, IF you are robbed/attacked or whatever, will having a gun actually matter? Will you, being a normal human being with normal hormonal levels (read, producing a shitload of epinephrine, severely impairing judgment, in a situation like that) be able to use a gun in a way that will help keep you and others around you safe?

Some people claim the principal right to defend yourself against the government, which I think it's oddly irrational:
1) you really think there is a good chance your government will use its army (which consists of normal people like you and me) to attack civilians?
2) Say the government used things like drones/robots/ evil soldiers bent on attack civilians, does having a rifle really keep you safe?
3) is that irrational fear worth keeping a device around the house that has no other purpose than to kill things and if misused or by accident is also likely to indeed severely wound or kill a person?

Maybe I lack some perspective because I didn't grow up around guns. But as far as I can see the only reasons to keep guns around are irrational fears of being attacked by someone in a way where having a gun would actually matter. else/government and "it's awesome" (which, don't get my wrong, I get completely)

Once again, just curious and being unknowing of the culture and views around owning and using weaponry like that. :)
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Offline Rhino

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2015, 12:41:55 PM »

Some people claim the principal right to defend yourself against the government, which I think it's oddly irrational:
1) you really think there is a good chance your government will use its army (which consists of normal people like you and me) to attack civilians?
2) Say the government used things like drones/robots/ evil soldiers bent on attack civilians, does having a rifle really keep you safe?
3) is that irrational fear worth keeping a device around the house that has no other purpose than to kill things and if misused or by accident is also likely to indeed severely wound or kill a person?



1) yes, history of the last century teaches this. The soldiers of Germany, Japan, Cambodia etc considered themselves "normal people".
2) no, but far safer than not having anything.
3) Far, far more likely that I would get hurt riding a motorcycle than accidentally by my guns. BTW: the primary purpose of my
    guns is not to kill things, but to protect myself and my family. You do not have to kill something to use a gun for protection.
    Just ask police officers. It is very rare that they use their gun to kill. But just having it most of the time is enough to stop
    someone from attacking them.

The United States was relatively untouched amidst multiple genocides of the last century. I think the main reason was because of our freedom. There are specific areas in the US that are dangerous to crime. These are mostly due to racism and cultural history, not due to our second amendment. In fact in most of those places, gun ownership is far more limited. Specific neighborhoods in Chicago, New York and Washington to name a few. Outside of those areas our crime rate is very similar to Europe. I've been to Amsterdam, Nijmegen and Eindhoven. Beautiful country by the way. I am just as safe walking down the street in Colorado Springs, CO, or Austin TX as I was walking around those cities.

Offline gPink

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2015, 12:44:49 PM »
You have grown up with a nanny state government and I guess that's alright if that's what you're used too. I will not bow my head to anyone and hope they don't kill me. And governments have a well documented record of killing their own people. Have you not read any history?

Offline gPink

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2015, 01:21:14 PM »
Maybe it's a matter of perspective. The Netherlands land area ( 16,000sq miles) will fit in the state of West Virginia (24,000sq miles). When we go for a long motorcycle ride it can be for 3000 miles and stay in the same country, speak the same language and spend the same money as everybody else. We need no passports and no travel papers. There are areas of hundreds of square miles where no one lives. This is not like Europe which has been settled for thousands of years. We as a country are less than three hundred years old. There are still animals that can be higher on the food chain than us if we are not careful. We have been more or less at war with a few stretches of not war since our inception. Many have suffered because of that but many millions more, including Europe, have been the beneficiary of our efforts. Not bragging or excusing, just stating facts. We were born to war and taking care of our own both as a nation and as individuals. When anyone, including our own politicians, try to infringe on our natural rights we don't take it well. We were not born to be sheep.

Offline Deziner

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2015, 06:44:08 AM »
I have insurance on my motorcycle.  I hope I never need it.

I have fire extinguishers. I hope I never need them.

I have guns. I hope I never need them.

Get it ?    Got it?    Good.
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Offline gPink

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2015, 06:46:36 AM »
What if you want to go target shooting at fire extinguishers from the back of your motorcycle? Will your insurance cover that?

Offline Deziner

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2015, 06:59:56 AM »
Not in the Netherlands.
God does not subtract from a man's life the number of hours spent riding a motorcycle

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Offline maxtog

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2015, 09:33:22 PM »
Sure there are (illegal) guns here in the Netherlands too. The chances of actually being shot are absurdly small though, so I don't ever feel the need to carry a gun myself to "protect myself".

And that is great.  But it is difficult to compare a small and very homogeneous country like the Netherlands to the USA.  The situation is very different.  The lower level of violence/crime is not due to the lack of guns.  It is more likely about compatibility of upbringing, education, values, religion, income equity, politics, etc.

Quote
is that irrational fear worth keeping a device around the house that has no other purpose than to kill things

It is no more irrational than those who fear good and responsible people HAVING guns.

Quote
and if misused or by accident is also likely to indeed severely wound or kill a person?

Cars, motorcycles, bicycles, drugs drugs, power tools, heaters, food, and many other things are misused or cause accidents which can and do kill many, many, many thousands of times more people than guns do in the hands of non-criminals.

Quote
Maybe I lack some perspective because I didn't grow up around guns.

Perhaps, but it is more likely you just lack perspective because you are in a less potentially dangerous area.  Please keep in mind that the VAST majority of US citizens do not own guns.  And huge areas of the USA have low violence.  But the USA is a huge place, with lots of incredibly large cities, and the freedom we enjoy (which is less and less each year, unfortunately) gives incentive to some people to use that freedom for destructive/criminal purposes instead of constructive/peaceful purposes.

You can have more freedom or more safety.  Not both.  So I will close with one of the most important quotes of all time... from one of the founding fathers, Benjamin Franklin:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
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Offline Tzigane

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2015, 04:03:15 AM »
A good reply, thank you! I'm beginning to see the point to it.
How is weapon possession regulated over there? Do you need a license/take a test or something?

And indeed, I often read about the freedom that is been taken away. both in the USA and here in Europe.
Mass surveillance and privacy infringement because of imaginary "terrorists".. But that's a different topic altogether.
No amount of guns will save us from that.  :-\
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Offline Rhino

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2015, 07:13:25 AM »
A good reply, thank you! I'm beginning to see the point to it.
How is weapon possession regulated over there? Do you need a license/take a test or something?

And indeed, I often read about the freedom that is been taken away. both in the USA and here in Europe.
Mass surveillance and privacy infringement because of imaginary "terrorists".. But that's a different topic altogether.
No amount of guns will save us from that.  :-\

It differs from state to state and in some cases city to city. In most of the US, you do not need a license or test just to own a gun. You do have to get a background check to buy from a licensed dealer. That is to say they check to make sure you are not on a felony list. Most states (over 30) now allow carrying a concealed handgun with a permit. I don't know all the laws of every state but most require some training as well as a background check to get this permit. Most if not all states do not allow you to carry even with a permit into schools, banks and government buildings. Please note that in all cases of tragic school shootings here in the US it is strictly forbidden to have a gun. The psychopaths don't care and in fact know that all their victims are unarmed. In states such as I have lived for the last 30 years, Colorado and Texas, as long as you are not on a forbidden list you can buy a gun, have it in your house or in your car, and carry it openly in the country. All fully automatic guns (any gun where more than one bullet is fired when the trigger is pulled) and silencers are forbidden unless you have a specific federal license. Those licenses are expensive and difficult to get and very regulated.

Offline Rick Hall

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2015, 08:44:42 PM »
Neil Young, from the 70's. I'm sure you've heard of him. Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young.


Some people claim the principal right to defend yourself against the government, which I think it's oddly irrational:
1) you really think there is a good chance your government will use its army (which consists of normal people like you and me) to attack civilians?

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Offline Tzigane

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Re: If this doesn't make the point, I don't know what does
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2015, 02:49:00 AM »
Thanks for the info Rhino!

Rick: What happened there was horrible indeed.  :-\

How would the situation be different if the students were armed though? :)
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