Fireplaces and Heat Pumps

[T Cro ®]

No morality questions here:

Ok so as most know I recently move to middle TN from lower MI and things are quite different down here. Namely the climate; winters should be much milder but here is the sticky....

The home we bought was built as more of as a lakeside summer vacation home but we are going to be living year round. First off the house has a Heat Pump and we quickly learned that these things don't put out HOT air like a real furnace does; they put out warm air. So it seems your better off keeping the house a little warmer overall all the time otherwise the vents seem to blow even cooler air....

2nd the house has a vent free fireplace with only a 100 pound propane tank outside. Got to wonder how long this tank will last if we used the vent free fireplace very much? This I've no idea yet as I've not been home enough to find out....

The chimney and fireplace area is completely decorative in that it is not lined with masonry at all so while the vent free is safe to use I don't know as of yet what mods we will need to do in order to say add a real wood burning insert. While I'd like to be able to go with a wood burner so the wife can get as toasty warm as she wants with little cost she does not like the idea of smoke or ash clean out.

Or perhaps I'll be better off with a larger propane tank to be able to run the fireplace as much as she wants and think about giving her a gas cook-top back which would be right up her alley?

[VirginiaJim]

If you want to replace the vent free propane with something else, think insert (assuming they make one that's propane capable).  Both intake and exhaust come through the chimney.  Much safer and provides more heat.  Upgrading the insulation in the ceiling will help as well and seal any drafty points of entry such as outlets, windows, and doors.  Upgrading the windows to dual pane will help.  We have two heat pumps and one ventless propane log set on the main floor.  I generally only use it in the early morning or late evening for not much more than a half hour.  I'd probably use it more if it were an insert with intake and exhaust going through the chimney.  If you are going to make that your permanent home then I would do the upgrades.  Usually people skimp on vacation summer homes when it comes to building materials.  We have the 100lb propane tank setup.  I usually go about 2 years between fills and we have a gas stove.  If I changed to an insert I'd be looking at a 500lb tank and also think about generator.  You're going to find out how well your heat pump does in the winter soon.  If it's over 10 years old you might want to replace that with a more efficient one.  If you feel hot heat from the pump then it's running on the electric coils and not the pump.

[gPink]

Tony, I'm not too far north of you latitude wise and have a similar heating arrangement. Ground loop heat pump and vent free fireplace. I'm heating about 3000 sq/ft on two and one half stories. I started with two hundred lb bottles with a shut of valve on each bottle. Refilled each bottle at least once during the season. I switched to a 125 gal tank that the propane company tops off once a year for a 50$ rental fee plus gas. Much better than hauling tanks to town. I did find when I run the fireplace a lot the great room/kitchen stays toasty but the rest of the house cools quite a bit due to the thermostat being in the great room.

[T Cro ®]

If you want to replace the vent free propane with something else, think insert (assuming they make one that's propane capable).  Both intake and exhaust come through the chimney.  Much safer and provides more heat.  Upgrading the insulation in the ceiling will help as well and seal any drafty points of entry such as outlets, windows, and doors.  Upgrading the windows to dual pane will help.  We have two heat pumps and one ventless propane log set on the main floor.  I generally only use it in the early morning or late evening for not much more than a half hour.  I'd probably use it more if it were an insert with intake and exhaust going through the chimney.  If you are going to make that your permanent home then I would do the upgrades.  Usually people skimp on vacation summer homes when it comes to building materials.  We have the 100lb propane tank setup.  I usually go about 2 years between fills and we have a gas stove.  If I changed to an insert I'd be looking at a 500lb tank and also think about generator.  You're going to find out how well your heat pump does in the winter soon.  If it's over 10 years old you might want to replace that with a more efficient one.  If you feel hot heat from the pump then it's running on the electric coils and not the pump.

The H/P is a brand new install; thus far only see the aux coils come on when the t-stat is run up more than a few degree and then not for long either. House also has freshly blown in attic insulation as the owner realized that needed to be done to help sell. Appears to have mid grade DPDH windows and overall build quality is very high with solid brick build with some cement board trim and is less than 10 year old. Was never really used or liven in due to the death of the owner's wife.

[T Cro ®]

I did find when I run the fireplace a lot the great room/kitchen stays toasty but the rest of the house cools quite a bit due to the thermostat being in the great room.

We had two vent-free in our last house in MI one free standing and one log set and saw the same thing with the bedrooms upstairs... New house has master right off living room and within a few feet of the fireplace so that should help keep the master warm too....

[MAN OF BLUES]

Cieling fans....

We had electric heatpump in Va, and baseboard elements, they were all undersized to be worth nothing, house was always cold... I hated it. Back in Ohio now, and we have natural gas furnace heatpump combo.... I simply love it, its real heat...  the fireplace is great, but we run cieling fans to spread the heat around, it works well, but wood ain't cheap anymore... I can burn $200 in wood in 45 days, if I'm not careful. Our gas bill without using wood is about the same cost... so the fire is a doubler on expense.
In your situation, if it were me, id spend the money for installing a true flue pipe, thru the wall and up, and add in a freestanding wood burner, which gives you the option of using the propane fake fireplace for times when ya don't wanna mess with the wood, but also gives the option for using wood in the worst monthes, or during a power outage....  that is if the room is large enough to have both....

[T Cro ®]

MOB you and I are pretty much on the same page here as I was thinking that regardless I was going to get a flue pipe installed and dropped down within easy reach and capped until I can make a better informed choice for the long term. We had our last home so well adapted to dealing with the cold winter months with two gas fireplaces that were no harder to use than turning their knobs. Now I'm basically starting from scratch again and you should already hear my wife complain about the cold. I'll have to see what that vent free fireplace can do when I get home after the 19th; I don't even know if there is any fuel in the tank.

[2fast]

Hey Tony,
Vent free fireplaces are potentially one failed sensor away from disaster.  They are illegal to sell in MN.  Would you consider running your gas water heater or furnace without venting it to the outdoors?  I'd go electric space heating if my only other option was ventless. Long term low level CO is not good for you. If you use it, get a good digital CO meter to run in the vicinity.  You can google up more, but here's a starter.  https://chimneysweeponline.com/hovflett.htm

[T Cro ®]

Hey Tony,
Vent free fireplaces are potentially one failed sensor away from disaster.  They are illegal to sell in MN.  Would you consider running your gas water heater or furnace without venting it to the outdoors?  I'd go electric space heating if my only other option was ventless. Long term low level CO is not good for you. If you use it, get a good digital CO meter to run in the vicinity.  You can google up more, but here's a starter.  https://chimneysweeponline.com/hovflett.htm

Yeah I can't say that I've not heard this warning before but after having had 2 vent-free units one log set and one free standing for at least 6 years I find myself unable to make any tangible complaint about them. I kept CO meters in the same rooms and heard more from them when my wife cooked than when the heaters were in use. I also grew up with blue flame wall heaters too.

[wahrsuul]

We just moved over the summer.  As it's gotten colder, I really miss the "Real" A/C and Gas heat we had in the other house.  We're on a heat pump system now, and I'm not loving it.  it worked as an A/C unit in the summer well enough, but I'm not loving the heat output.  The other house was on a gas line, so there were no tanks.  If I wanted gas here, I'd have to do a full install, and I just don't have the funds for that right now.

Ceiling fans help, but we don't run them all day.  Just have to remember to reverse them for winter.

[RFH87_Connie]

I live in NoVa.  We have a heat pump (which just went out after 17 years) and a Black Bart fire place insert which can pretty well heat the upstairs where we live very well if not too much.  It doesn't have an outside air intake.  We are getting the heat pump replaced this week hopefully (the emergency element still works).  I have been seriously looking at pellet stoves.  Bottle gas in any form is extremely expensive in this area.  I just paid $350 for about 2.5 cords which is an excellent price in our area.  I already have some wood we got in the summer, as we go thru 3-4 cords per year.  Craigslist cords are going for about $250 right now for seasoned wood.  If I had it to do over, I would go the pellet route (with an outside air intake) and the heat pump.  Yes, clean-out is an issue over anything gas but it is very economical.  Go online in check out the new units that turn themselves on and off and autofeed too.  All these need is a hole "poked" thru a wall somewhere for the flue.  The pipe is both an intake and exhaust.

[stevewfl]

 

[T Cro ®]

NO KIDDING !!!

[gPink]

But only on 08 dec 2013.

[Conrad]

Yeah I can't say that I've not heard this warning before but after having had 2 vent-free units one log set and one free standing for at least 6 years I find myself unable to make any tangible complaint about them. I kept CO meters in the same rooms and heard more from them when my wife cooked than when the heaters were in use. I also grew up with blue flame wall heaters too.

I installed a vent free fireplace in my basement 15 years or so ago. It's a catalytic unit and it works fine after it has warmed up a for a few minutes. Until the catalytic combustor 'lights' the fireplace is rather stinky though and we always open a window a lil. Once the combustor lights there is no smell at all. 

I do have a high quality CO detector down stairs though, another one upstairs as well.

[connie_rider]

T Cro, I realize that getting heating suggestions from a Guy in South Texas is almost as bad as a guy (Named Steve) telling you how warm it is in Florida..

BUT,,,,,

As MOB sed,,,, In your situation, if it were me, I'd spend the money for installing a true flue pipe, thru the wall and up, and add in a freestanding wood burner,

(I hate to admit this, but I hafta agree with MOB); Plus, it would be a heck of a lot more efficient and less costly  than a fire place,  "and" if ya need it,,, it works if the power goes off!

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Whut's a basement?

[Conrad]

T Cro, I realize that getting heating suggestions from a Guy in South Texas is almost as bad as a guy (Named Steve) telling you how warm it is in Florida..

BUT,,,,,

As MOB sed,,,, In your situation, if it were me, I'd spend the money for installing a true flue pipe, thru the wall and up, and add in a freestanding wood burner,

I hafta agree; It would be a heck of a lot more efficient and less costly if ya need it,, "and" it works if the power goes off!

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Whut's a basement?

A basement is kinda like a large crawl space but without most of the spiders.   

My ventfree works without power too. No fan but plenty o heat.

[T Cro ®]

A basement is kinda like a large crawl space but without most of the spiders.   

My vent-free works without power too. No fan but plenty o heat.

No longer have a basement the new house as a crawl space which for the most part is a stoop space; just wish it had a bigger door for getting in as I'd take advantage of it.... Some homes in our hood have basements mostly due to the depth of their wallets as for the most part I'm sitting on rock with a dirt frosting.....

Figuring on keeping the vent-free for at least the time being. As long as this one works as well as the last two I've had as they both worked absolutely fine and without issue and did not stink beyond the first use of the season. Turns out that most of our neighbors have similar setups for mood and/or backup heating.