Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Bill_P on August 26, 2016, 02:44:31 PM
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Yep I have 2008 (65K miles) with a bad ABS pump, Kawi part # 16082-0023. $1,270 :o for a replacement OEM. No luck finding one 2nd hand, must be like hens teeth. Kawi will not warranty this part because they claim I didn't change the brake fluid as required. Well I did it myself. So I don't have any proof. So I am SOL. The 2nd gen ABS part # is 16082-0041. So my conundrum is: I can find 2nd gen used ABS pumps cheap, well $150.
Are they interchangeable?
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I don't know for sure, but I am going to say "probably not". The "pump" is more than just a pump (I believe it has brains/etc, too) and the two ABS's are actually considerably different from gen 1 to gen 2 (if I remember correctly from previous postings).
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What Maxdog said - The ABS units from series 1 & 2 are not interchangeable as the series 2 has 5 pipes (linked brakes) not 4, a different harness plug connector for it's electronic connection to the bike's ECU for traction monitoring/control.
If you look at the link below you will see the physical differences between the 4 & 5 pipe units. The European ZZR 1400 unit will fit a series 1 ZG 1400. Though it is a different part number the pipes and electrical plug are the same and it will work.
(one wonders - not - why the ZZR/ZX 1400 does not have linked brakes)
Ensure you report the failure to the federal road safety authority, as other have done. Kawasaki has replaced a small number of units free of charge as you probably know so they can investigate the failure.
http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=kawasaki%201400%20abs%20unit&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=2&_trksid=p2045573.m1684 (http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=kawasaki%201400%20abs%20unit&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=2&_trksid=p2045573.m1684)
I forgot to add that the wheel sensors and rings are also different.
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(one wonders - not - why the ZZR/ZX 1400 does not have linked brakes)
Not a sports tourer. The ZZR/ZX also doesn't have variable valve timing, shaft drive, heated grips, electric windshield, etc.
Ensure you report the failure to the federal road safety authority, as other have done. Kawasaki has replaced a small number of units free of charge as you probably know so they can investigate the failure.
+1
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Maxtog and Freddy, thanks for the info. My search will continue.
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What Maxdog said - The ABS units from series 1 & 2 are not interchangeable as the series 2 has 5 pipes (linked brakes) not 4, a different harness plug connector for it's electronic connection to the bike's ECU for traction monitoring/control.
If you look at the link below you will see the physical differences between the 4 & 5 pipe units. The European ZZR 1400 unit will fit a series 1 ZG 1400. Though it is a different part number the pipes and electrical plug are the same and it will work.
(one wonders - not - why the ZZR/ZX 1400 does not have linked brakes)
Ensure you report the failure to the federal road safety authority, as other have done. Kawasaki has replaced a small number of units free of charge as you probably know so they can investigate the failure.
http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=kawasaki%201400%20abs%20unit&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=2&_trksid=p2045573.m1684 (http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=kawasaki%201400%20abs%20unit&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=2&_trksid=p2045573.m1684)
I forgot to add that the wheel sensors and rings are also different.
Has anyone tried this? I am having the same problen with my 09 Concours 14 ABS. My bike is immaculate with only 12K miles and Kawasaki told me to pound sand and pay $1600 for the repair. I cant afford that so im looking for another option. Thanks in advanced.
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Hi WPR, sorry to hear that you have 'joined the club.' Please report it to the road safety authorities as I requested above. You will see that one of the last pages in the Owner's Manual advises owners to do this. I suggest that you contact the tech service dept of Kaw personally and speak to them about replacement as Kaw has been supplying them free of charge but report the brake failure in any case. Emphasise that this BRAKE FAILURE is a major SAFETY ISSUE.
I cannot add more than I did above other than to say that the European ZZR14 2012-2016 has a different ABS unit, as the bike has traction control and so are not interchangeable with the non-linked (early) ZG1400.
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I cannot add more than I did above other than to say that the European ZZR14 2012-2016 has a different ABS unit, as the bike has traction control and so are not interchangeable with the non-linked (early) ZG1400.
Would an 09 European zzr14 part work on the 09 concours? There's one on eBay for about $250
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To the best of my knowledge and experience, yes. But there are more out there a LOT cheaper.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/172344034742?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/172344034742?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/272212794723?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/272212794723?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/160934499823?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/160934499823?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
Where in the world are you? I'd await a final answer from Kaw myself.
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Where in the world are you? I'd await a final answer from Kaw myself.
In Alabama, USA. Kawasaki told me today that the bike is four years out of warranty so they won't help. I suggested it's a systemic issue with the part/design and the disagreed of course. I would test/use my rear brakes on every ride and this happened out of the blue.
Anyways, thinking the ZZR part might be a good option...does anyone know somebody who did it and were there any issues with mounting brackets or connectors? Thanks!
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Yep I have 2008 (65K miles) with a bad ABS pump, Kawi part # 16082-0023. $1,270 :o for a replacement OEM. No luck finding one 2nd hand, must be like hens teeth. Kawi will not warranty this part because they claim I didn't change the brake fluid as required. Well I did it myself. So I don't have any proof. So I am SOL. The 2nd gen ABS part # is 16082-0041. So my conundrum is: I can find 2nd gen used ABS pumps cheap, well $150.
Are they interchangeable?
They are not interchangeable
just an FYI there is a 3rd generation for the Concours 16082-0743 and no other bikes use any of these 3 generations. The ZZR is a different part numer. I assume it will not mate up easily
You have to use the correct number for your brake genearation
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WPR, I have done it. As DM points out, the ZZR1400 2006-2011 and 2007-2009 ZG1400 (early) ABS units are different part numbers but they are interchangeable.
Remove the tank to access the ABS unit. Photograph or mark which pipes go where. Remove pipes taking care of brake fluid spills, remove harness connector, remove ABS unit. Reverse procedure for fitting, bleed system. Be aware that a used unit could also be a failed unit. If you can't bleed the system, bin it.
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For anyone that wants it, I have the chapter on ABS troubleshooting saved to a pdf. It's for a 2008 but it may be helpful. PM me if you want it.
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in my research for the cause for the strange behaviour on the feeling of my front brakes, I found out that, as somebody mentioned, the ABS unit from the earlier ZZR1400 (ZX14R) is indeed interchangeable. The parameters are slightly different (given the different mass of the 2 bikes and other things) but it'll work. An Australian owner has his bike driving around like this, and I sourced a unit from a ZX14R and the vendor said that it will fit in the C14, just less efficient. I was about to pull the trigger until Kawasaki suggested to instead pull the 3 fuses of the ABS system in the bike in order to rule it out for my problem, so in the end I didn't have to go this route, but I would have done it. For some reason, the few used pumps available out there are around 350€ (380 USD) for the C14, while the ZX14R units consistently cost the half. Annoying.
BTW, my bike was destroyed last Monday (link (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22274.0) to the post with more details) and I might be able to get the ABS unit out of it, but I'm not sure how the insurance will see it, or how long it could take, or how expensive it'd be to ship it to the USA.
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SOOOO glad you lived to report back Martin. Yes, I read you 'story'.
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Yep I have 2008 (65K miles) with a bad ABS pump, Kawi part # 16082-0023. $1,270 :o for a replacement OEM. No luck finding one 2nd hand, must be like hens teeth. Kawi will not warranty this part because they claim I didn't change the brake fluid as required. Well I did it myself. So I don't have any proof. So I am SOL. The 2nd gen ABS part # is 16082-0041. So my conundrum is: I can find 2nd gen used ABS pumps cheap, well $150.
Are they interchangeable?
I would keep trolling fleaBay used pumps pop up periodically. I found one off an 09' ABS and got it for $150. Just had it installed a couple weeks ago and all is well. I ran into the same problem with Kawi, told me I was too far out of warranty to even think about getting it for free. I went back and forth with them for quite a while and finally just got tired of dealing with them.
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What Maxdog said - The ABS units from series 1 & 2 are not interchangeable as the series 2 has 5 pipes (linked brakes) not 4, a different harness plug connector for it's electronic connection to the bike's ECU for traction monitoring/control.
If you look at the link below you will see the physical differences between the 4 & 5 pipe units. The European ZZR 1400 unit will fit a series 1 ZG 1400. Though it is a different part number the pipes and electrical plug are the same and it will work
I bought a pump for the ZZR as a replacement for my gen 1 connie. Look and fits perfectly. Bled it through and it functions fine. Except that after a 1/2 mile the abs light comes on. And the abs is disabled. Apparently the electronics knows this is not the correct pump. All this to say that the differences are more than meets the eye. Unfortunately...
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I took my original abs pump for 2008 model apart. Trying to see if any way to fix the stuck rear brake solenoid valve. Once you remove the pump motor I see no way the reinstall it as the bearing on the cam stuck to the end of motor can't be removed (by me anyway). Turns out there was no reason to have needed to remove the motor in my case.
The solenoids are on the other side of the assembly. I cannot see a way to disassemble the solenoids. They are assembled with a non reuseable snap ring. Since the pump is bad this is not too big a tragedy. Just disapointed I cannot find a fix. So far I am only in $60 for the ZZR1400 pump I bought that isn't electronically compatible. :(
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I took my original abs pump for 2008 model apart. Trying to see if any way to fix the stuck rear brake solenoid valve. Once you remove the pump motor I see no way the reinstall it as the bearing on the cam stuck to the end of motor can't be removed (by me anyway). Turns out there was no reason to have needed to remove the motor in my case.
The solenoids are on the other side of the assembly. I cannot see a way to disassemble the solenoids. They are assembled with a non reuseable snap ring. Since the pump is bad this is not too big a tragedy. Just disapointed I cannot find a fix. So far I am only in $60 for the ZZR1400 pump I bought that isn't electronically compatible. :(
I was able to reassemble the pump motor a while back, but it requires ruining a couple of new brass feeler gauges. Also, the stuck solenoid will free up if You work it gently with a soft mallet, and get it moving.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=20676.msg277418#msg277418 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=20676.msg277418#msg277418)
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I bought a pump for the ZZR as a replacement for my gen 1 connie. Look and fits perfectly. Bled it through and it functions fine. Except that after a 1/2 mile the abs light comes on. And the abs is disabled. Apparently the electronics knows this is not the correct pump. All this to say that the differences are more than meets the eye. Unfortunately...
I've not looked at one of these but wondering if you can swap the electronics between the two pumps. Might solve the problem...
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I've not looked at one of these but wondering if you can swap the electronics between the two pumps. Might solve the problem...
This is a brilliant idea and worth looking into. I bet You can swap the control modules.
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I bought a pump for the ZZR as a replacement for my gen 1 connie. Look and fits perfectly. Bled it through and it functions fine. Except that after a 1/2 mile the abs light comes on. And the abs is disabled. Apparently the electronics knows this is not the correct pump. All this to say that the differences are more than meets the eye. Unfortunately...
Sorry to read of that Sporty. I see from your post 15 in the link below that you may have fitted a 2012 or later unit which won't work for the reason I stated in reply 18. It may be worth trying the later sensor rings on the wheels to see if that solves the problem but the TC thing would then probably throw up a fault but It'd be an interesting experiment - which you may not be into. The non-TC bike has 60 front & 50 rear whereas the TC bike has 48 front and 45 rear - same as rings on ZG14 gen 1 and gen 2 respectively.
But swapping the electronics would be a good first try, as suggested.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21794.15 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21794.15)
Also, it's easy to check what your fault code is from the the simple procedure in the FSM>
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Great points. Yes I should have a look at the fault code for more info. I am sure the pump isn't for a gen two since the TC model has 5 hydraulic lines and not 4. My pump has 4.
Thanks for the info on the sensor rings. I had the same thought and was trying to count them fro parts fiche drawings I found online. Difficult to say the least.
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The gen 2 ZG1400 ABS unit has 5 pipes, not to be confused with the ZZR1400 with TC which has 4 pipes and looks the same a gen 1 ZG1400 unit and non-TC ZZR but with different ECU obviously, for TC.
Do you happen to know what year ZZR it came from?
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The unit I used is from a 2012 zzr1400. I have not tried swapping the electronic module from my old 2008 pump to the zzr pump. I will need to look and see how complex that may be to do.
The TC topic is interesting. I'm not convinced (yet) it should be a factor. The TC functions the electronics provide are used to control the engine output and not the operation of the abs. I suspect the wheel sensor rings with a different number of notches is what is at fault. Of that point, the TC needs the information from the wheel speed sensors. So perhaps the abs module does process the sensor data, I don't know.
I second guess that, because there is a half mile riding delay before the abs light comes on. If the abs is getting an incorrect snsor count then should it not take only a few revolutions before the system detects something out of whack and trips the light? I know zero specifics about what the designer implemented in their design. As we know, speculation is usually wrong.
This is an intellectual deversion now. After a month and a half I managed to locate a used pump for my bike. Now I have 3 options:
1. Swap the electronic between the 2 pumps I have.
2. Buy and Swap sensor rings.
3. Use the new used pump
4. Try to reassemble and fix the original failed pump I have (anyone know how to trigger the stuck solenoid to see if it works? I wanted to be able to "exercise" it if I can get it freed.
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After trying to count sensor ring notches, my own ability to count has now lost calibration.
Michael now trips his mental abs light....
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It may be worth trying the later sensor rings on the wheels to see if that solves the problem but the TC thing would then probably throw up a fault but It'd be an interesting experiment - which you may not be into. The non-TC bike has 60 front & 50 rear whereas the TC bike has 48 front and 45 rear - same as rings on ZG14 gen 1 and gen 2 respectively.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21794.15 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21794.15)
Also, it's easy to check what your fault code is from the the simple procedure in the FSM>
So I see there is a very different ratio between f/r between these models, 1.2 vs 1.06. This makes me wonder how the system accounts for differences in tire sizes. My rear tire is not the stock size. But the kawai is able to compensate in stock configuration. I think this is done when you first start the bike and roll a few revolutions to turn off the abs warning light. It is performing a calculation/calibration.
My light turns off after rolling about 10-12 ft. It seems to clear the calculation step. I am on this train of thought since I am speculating on swapping the zx14 sensor rings onto my bike to see if this will allow me to use the zx14 abs pump i have installed now. My wheel sensors are for a ZG 2008 and the pump is a zx14. After a half mile the abs light comes back on. Used sensor rings are going to cost around $100. My devotion to the scientific process is in conflict with a smoldering debit card.
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Good posts ST, I like you're thinking :thumbs: :goodpost:
I suspect that the ABS ECU is calibrated to cope with a 5-10% variation in tyre size front/rear for the purpose of accommodating normal wear & replacement at different times, even a 190/55-17 on the rear. However, the gen 1 rings (60/50) on your bike with the gen 2 ABS calibration (48/45) you now have, represents a variation of 13.2075471%. Well, that's my thinking. :)
The other thought that comes to mind if fitting gen 2 rings is the TC lamp on inst cluster factor. As the gen 1 ZG doesn't have it but the gen 2 ZZR apparently does (like gen 2 ZG presumably), there may or may not be an issue with that, just surmising. :chugbeer:
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At this point my "new" used pump has yet to arrive. In the mean time, I have tried this:
I have the 2012 ZZR1200 pump installed with the resultant ABS light warning. So I took the suggestion above and removed the black plastic electronics piece from the old 2008 pump and swapped it onto the ZZR1200 mechanicals. It is an hour job just to dig into the bike to get to the pump but only 4 screws hold the CPU unto the pump assembly. I was able to get the pump loose enough without having to disconnect the hydraulic lines to remove the CPU. Got it reassembled to the ZZR1200 pump mechanical. Cruised around with this change at less than 25 mph in the apartment complex and no error light yet.
Next check will be to properly gear up and go out and purposely try and lock up the brakes and see if it all works (without finding out it doesn't and crashing). Fortunatley this all started with a rear brake that didn't work so I will go try and just lock up the rear brake for now...
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Cool update! Hope that ECU swap works!
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If the hardware is identical, which it appears that it is, they just customized some bit of the electronics, likely just the firmware, for the different models. This is common. I've never swapped the electronics between ABS units but have done a number of times for hard disk drives that have a failed electronics board.
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Cool update! Hope that ECU swap works!
What he said. :chugbeer:
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Worked perfectly. Mashing the brakes triggered the anti-lock front and rear and everything is working as it should. Rode about 75 miles today with no issues. I now have an un needed used pump I bought for a 08/09 concours that I did not need to use. PM me if anyone is interested in it.
That only leaves a rear TPMS left to swap out and my "new" used 2008 bike is back to 100% operational.
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:goodpost:
Why not fit a new battery to the TPMS sensor?
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Worked perfectly. Mashing the brakes triggered the anti-lock front and rear and everything is working as it should. Rode about 75 miles today with no issues. I now have an un needed used pump I bought for a 08/09 concours that I did not need to use. PM me if anyone is interested in it.
That only leaves a rear TPMS left to swap out and my "new" used 2008 bike is back to 100% operational.
Sweet!! ;D
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Worked perfectly. Mashing the brakes triggered the anti-lock front and rear and everything is working as it should. Rode about 75 miles today with no issues. I now have an un needed used pump I bought for a 08/09 concours that I did not need to use. PM me if anyone is interested in it.
That only leaves a rear TPMS left to swap out and my "new" used 2008 bike is back to 100% operational.
Sportytoes, I sent you a pm about the extra abs pump you have.
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Thanks for giving it a home. Let us know how the repairs go. I flushed fluid through both circuites before sending it out. Made things a bit messier but wanted to be sure nothing had congealed while it was on the shelf. Hopefully it gets you back on the road in short order.