Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: timsatx on June 02, 2011, 06:51:38 AM
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Can the steering head be adjusted with the fairing on or do you need to remove it to do the work? I think that I have two problems with the front end. One is that I still have the crappy ME880 on the front with a bunch of miles on it so it is even more crappier. The other thing is that I know the head is loose. I discovered that some months ago and have yet to fix it, but I want to do it now.
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No need to remove the fairing. Remove the gas tank and adjust from the back of the triple tree ;)
Can also be done with the gas tank in situ but one small slip and you've got a dented tank. Best to remove the tank.
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Don't fergit to loosen the lower fork pinch bolts FIRST!
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The manual says to loosen the large nut on top, which is below the plastic trim key piece.
And, I believe you should have the front wheel off the ground.
And, what does the tanged flat washer between the top triple and the adjustment ring do besides cutting down the number of "grab" notches in the ring?
My adjustment collar or something keeps getting loose. I think every few years. Not sure if my bearings are going bad or what.??
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That is a lock washer. Any tang that is bent into a notch in the nut must be bent flat before the nut is turned.
The reason for the lower fork pinch bolts being loosened is when you tighten the nut the forks must be able to slide in their mounts the same distance the steering stem is compressed. IOW the top clamp gets closer to the bottom and to do so the lower pinch bolts must be loose.
Front wheel need not be off the ground.
When done bend a tang back into a notch in the nut then tighten the the fork bolts and jam nut.
The reason they need attention often is because to save $ Big K sourced the bearings from the 85 Ninja 900, a much lighter bike.
You will know if the bearings are too tight when the bike seems to need constant correction to go in a straight line. If that happens, back off the nut one notch and try again.
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sorry Cholla, but I have to ask if you have ever done this adjustment....?
You clearly have much of this wrong/and are reading a manual for the parts that are somewhat correct...
You don't flatten the damned lock washer, you remove the top nut. The notch washer is only keyed to the adjuster nut, to offer resistance from loosening, it ain't keyed to anything else. The adjuster nut and washer will move when the top pinch clamps are loosend and pried upwards..
Adjusting is much easier when you completely loosen the TOP pinch bolts on the forks, and tap a screwdriver blade in each slot to relieve any pinch whatsoever. The amount of actual movement you will be making during the adjustment (maybe .010" max) won't make a bit of difference in this manner, or doing the bottom ones, but compressing the top clamp down is much easier, and requires much less effort than pulling the whole fork/wheel assembly upwards thru the bottom clamp doing it the way the book says. This allows you to be much more accurate on the adjustment also.
The most accurate method is actually to fully remove the top clamp,only takes a second or 2, this allows full access to the adjuster nut, and full removal of the key washer also.... oh, it also allows you to remove the actual bearing, and examine it instead of just cranking it down. that and the lower ones DO require grease to live long, never doing that is a guranteed way of replacing them way before they are due.
There is an article in the library over at the online site, in the Concourier section that describes the adjustment and all the features, might go well to look it up, it's entitled "Shake, rattle, & roll".
the front wheel does have to be off the ground also, how the hell would you turn the front end to see if you got it too tight if it wasn't?
geeze.
mind the O ring also....
(http://inlinethumb59.webshots.com/46714/2173301030015463693S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2173301030015463693bckKqf)
(http://inlinethumb35.webshots.com/32290/2404226700015463693S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2404226700015463693hQQpOz)
(http://inlinethumb02.webshots.com/48193/2226061200015463693S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2226061200015463693GlksAy)
(http://inlinethumb08.webshots.com/47047/1236141146015463693S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1236141146015463693MHBIYb)
(http://inlinethumb25.webshots.com/45784/1236141082015463693S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1236141082015463693XyxzUj)
(http://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/47082/1236141046015463693S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1236141046015463693MtTMOW)
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MOB is correct and describes the best, easiest and correct method. That is how I did mine and it has been perfect since.
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I do not think I have adjusted mine correctly! Thanks MOB. Too grease that bottom bearing do I just let the stem drop down a ways with the bearing and reach in there and grease it?
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I do not think I have adjusted mine correctly! Thanks MOB. Too grease that bottom bearing do I just let the stem drop down a ways with the bearing and reach in there and grease it?
You really have to get a bit more clearance to do it correctly, I suppose if you had the bike on the centerstand, sitting on 2 2x12's and rocked back so the rear tire was on the ground (tie the centerstand off across the front of the engine using tie-down straps to prevent it folding back) it takes about 75 lbs of weight on the rear rack (iI have used 3 25lb weights to accomplish this) or use a scissor jack under the engine...you will likely need to remove the calipers or the brake line splitter block, and speedo cable also to get it to drop far enough to access the bearing.
I resign to remove the wheel, and both fork tubes, allowing complete removal of the lower tripple tree, because you need to "pack" that bearing, not just schmeer grease on it. when they are neglected they end up looking like the lower one in my photo, especially if the o-ring on top of the upper bearing was missing. Sorry, but it's all reletive to the way you want to do the job, you can shortcut, but it may result in lower service life.
pretty much need this much access to get that lubed
(http://inlinethumb40.webshots.com/48103/1236143750015463693S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1236143750015463693QTtFYI)
(http://inlinethumb39.webshots.com/28326/1236143681015463693S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1236143681015463693mnMpRN)
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You are right on the locking tab-been working on other types of bikes too long. But by loosening the TOP pinch bolts you end up RAISING the tubes in the clamps when you tighten the nut. This changes steering geometry over time.
Loosening the lower pinch bolts allows the assembly to stay the way it was.
And ya don't have to have the front wheel off the ground. want to see if it's too tight? Put a and on the seat and raise the wheel and move the bars. But it doesn't have to be off the ground for the adjustment. Place the bike on the c-stand. When done raise the F wheel and check.
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.... But by loosening the TOP pinch bolts you end up RAISING the tubes in the clamps when you tighten the nut. This changes steering geometry over time.
Loosening the lower pinch bolts allows the assembly to stay the way it was....
I know that my flashlight is a little dim at times but I'm going to call BS here...
If the lower triple remains tight how can the relationship between the lower triple and the axle change? Same thing generally applies to the lower triple and it's relationship to the frame as it already has all the force applied to it due to the weight of the bike compressing any slack out of the lower bearing.
Tightening of the steering stem is only to remove play from the upper bearing; and to add a tiny bit of resistance to help stabilize the bike.
I'll have to axe you to explain how this works please.... ;)
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by loosening the TOP pinch bolts you end up RAISING the tubes in the clamps when you tighten the nut. This changes steering geometry over time.
Cholla,
You have it backwards. By loosening or removing the top clamps the geometry stays the same. The lower clamp has the steering stem and lower bearing on it and the forks are clamped in and cannot move. Now when you tighten the stem nut you bring the top bearing down tighter and the relationship does not change. The lower bearing is still in the same spot as well as the lower clamp and the the forks are in the same spot. No change in geometry, not that a couple of threads would make any noticeable change. You could turn in the pre-load screws and compensate if need be.
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I agree with Tony and Mike, though in Cholla's defense, the factory service manual does state to loosen the LOWER clamp bolts. Clymer states to loosen the top ones. As Mike says, it won't make much difference either way, but it just seems more logical to me to loosen the top ones, and not disturb the forks' position in the lower clamps.
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Tony-ya need new batteries in the flashlight. no one said anything about the axle, nor referred to it. :chugbeer:
There's play in the upper if there is weight on the wheel....unload the wheel and the play is in the lower bearing.
Doesn't matter, the idea is to remove the play, period.
Logic tells ya if ya loosen the lower pinch bolts and the forks move the same will happen if ya loosen the top ones.
Why else would you loosen the pinch bolts? To allow the tubes to move in the clamps.
And moving the forks in the upper clamps does what?
Granted it's only the amount of slop taken up in the bearings but it does move.
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And moving the forks in the upper clamps does what?
It moves the top triple clamp closer to the steering head, assuming you tightened the steering stem nut and the top nut. The lower triple stays put from where it was relative to the forks and steering head, before you jacked up the motorcycle. Once the motorcycle is down on the ground again, wheel, fork tubes, and steering head are all where they were when you started, but the top triple is now closer to the lower triple by a very small amount. I know people talk about moving their forks relative to the top clamp to change the geometry, but this is already taking into account that the two clamps don't move relative to each other in the process. Here's something to think about, if you remove the top nut (not the steering stem nut) and loosen the lower clamps, then put enough weight on the front wheel to move the forks up, what happens? Now do you understand what we're trying to say?
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Tony-ya need new batteries in the flashlight. no one said anything about the axle, nor referred to it. :chugbeer:
There's play in the upper if there is weight on the wheel....unload the wheel and the play is in the lower bearing.
Doesn't matter, the idea is to remove the play, period.
Logic tells ya if ya loosen the lower pinch bolts and the forks move the same will happen if ya loosen the top ones.
Why else would you loosen the pinch bolts? To allow the tubes to move in the clamps.
And moving the forks in the upper clamps does what?
Granted it's only the amount of slop taken up in the bearings but it does move.
Cholla,
I do not know how to explain this any simpler to you. Did you not read what I just said a couple of posts ago? Gary F. explains it perfectly.
Let me see if I can help you understand and explain it in a different way.
Look at MOB's 3rd picture of the rusty bearing. That bearing does not slide up and down the shaft like the top bearing does. When you keep the lower clamps tight on the forks this keeps that rusty bearing and the lower clamps AND the forks as one solid piece and no matter how much you loosen and tighten the top nut the relationship or length of the forks (or the distance from the front axle to the frame) does not change. Do you agree or not?
If you loosen the lower clamps now the fork tubes are tied to the upper bearing which slides up and down and no longer tied to the non moving lower bearing and as you loosen or tighten the nut the tubes move up and down and that changes the geometry. Does that make sense?
I am trying to be nice here and trying to help you.
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Wow, mountain out of a molehill here!
Snug it up, ride more, worry less! 8)
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So, by loosening the lower clamps and tightening the adjustment nut, what have you done? You have moved the clamps closer together. But you haven't raised the forks in their clamps. You have allowed the lower fork clamp to move up the tube as needed and left the upper clamp unmolested as it was from the factory-and put the lower clamp where is should be. The forks haven't moved.
Again, with no weight on the front wheel the weight is on the UPPER bearing, so the BOTTOM bearing is the one not in its race. It is the one which needs to be moved. And to do so properly you must loosen the lower clamp so it can move.
Now everything is back where it was from the factory-and where it should be.
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So, by loosening the lower clamps and tightening the adjustment nut, what have you done? You have moved the clamps closer together. But you haven't raised the forks in their clamps. You have allowed the lower fork clamp to move up the tube as needed and left the upper clamp unmolested as it was from the factory-and put the lower clamp where is should be. The forks haven't moved.
Again, with no weight on the front wheel the weight is on the UPPER bearing, so the BOTTOM bearing is the one not in its race. It is the one which needs to be moved. And to do so properly you must loosen the lower clamp so it can move.
Now everything is back where it was from the factory-and where it should be.
stick to the arena, you can argue all you want there ok?
you are totally wrong here, and you do not listen.
if you loosen the bottom clamps, and tighten the adjuster, pulling the bottom clamp upwards to take the slop out, you have effectively changed the geometry, you have increased the distance between the ground, and the top and bottom clamps.
just sit back, and let the people that do this stuff explain it.....ok?
giving erroneous information, then sitting around arguing your 'believed point', (which is wrong in the firstplace along with the rest lock washer errors and such) , does nothing to help someopne get the job done easily and efficiently.
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With my front tire and bearing change, I just adjusted the steering head since I had a wobble at 50 mph. My question about the steering is that before I adjusted it there was a notch in the very center that the steering would fall into. Now that I have tightened it, the notch has now moved off center to the left. What is the notch? Should it be there? Did I mess something up when tightening? Bearings shot in the stem?
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With my front tire and bearing change, I just adjusted the steering head since I had a wobble at 50 mph. My question about the steering is that before I adjusted it there was a notch in the very center that the steering would fall into. Now that I have tightened it, the notch has now moved off center to the left. What is the notch? Should it be there? Did I mess something up when tightening? Bearings shot in the stem?
Notch is what occurs over time when the same roller hits the same spot on the bearing race over and over again. Accelerated by too-loose adjustment, but will always occur. Suggests your bearings should be replaced, though if you've moved the notch off-center (most stressed area), you've arguably bought some time, assuming you can live with hitting the notch every now and again. I'd change them, but I'm hyper about this stuff.
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And if u do not loosen either bolts, and simply tap the nut, a 1/4 turn and it tightens up... COuld there be any problems, as now it is riding perfect...... no vabration, no tank slappers, no nothing...?? Could that put extra pressure ont he bearing>? Or if it was such aminute adjustment, is everyhting fine?
Thanks
QUite a discussion..
Dan
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And if u do not loosen either bolts, and simply tap the nut, a 1/4 turn and it tightens up... COuld there be any problems, as now it is riding perfect...... no vibration, no tank slappers, no nothing...?? Could that put extra pressure ont he bearing>? Or if it was such aminute adjustment, is everyhting fine?
I don't suggest doing it that way again but if it worked for you this go round call it beginners luck and go ride.
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Thanks T, worked ok, but had to be very careful, Thanks again for your help, and I am in no way questioning your guys knowledge on here...
Bike seems to be fine, maybe it was such a minor adjustment, it will be ok...
Thanks again for ur help, and I can always use more beginers luck.
Headed out on Wednesday.
Dan
Dan
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I replaced my head bearings last fall. Should they be re-adjusted after a certain number of miles?
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stick to the arena, you can argue all you want there ok?
you are totally wrong here, and you do not listen.
if you loosen the bottom clamps, and tighten the adjuster, pulling the bottom clamp upwards to take the slop out, you have effectively changed the geometry, you have increased the distance between the ground, and the top and bottom clamps.
just sit back, and let the people that do this stuff explain it.....ok?
giving erroneous information, then sitting around arguing your 'believed point', (which is wrong in the firstplace along with the rest lock washer errors and such) , does nothing to help someopne get the job done easily and efficiently.
How can that be? The bearings and clamp will simply settle into the bearing race in the steering head. The rest of the fork and axle will move with the entire assembly. Ya know, the upper tube is connected to the lower. The geometry will change by raising or lowering the UPPER tube in its clamp, thereby raising or lowering the ride height.
But, with the lower pinch bolts loose, the forks DON'T MOVE. Just the lower clamp does.
I guess the factory and every mechanic I know does it wrong.
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How can that be? The bearings and clamp will simply settle into the bearing race in the steering head. The rest of the fork and axle will move with the entire assembly. Ya know, the upper tube is connected to the lower. The geometry will change by raising or lowering the UPPER tube in its clamp, thereby raising or lowering the ride height.
But, with the lower pinch bolts loose, the forks DON'T MOVE. Just the lower clamp does.
I guess the factory and every mechanic I know does it wrong.
You still have it backwards. The factory and every mechanic has it right and understands. You just do not get it for some reason even though it has been explained to you in very simple terms you still cant not seem to get it right.
Maybe if I try to explain to you a 3rd and even more simple method you might get it.
Forget you even have fork tubes. Lets say the Connie only has an upper tripple tree and a lower triple tree ,
and they are tied together with the threaded shaft, the one that is attached to and part of the bottom triple tree clamp.
The bottom triple tree that has that threaded rod (basically welded together for the purpose of explaining this) also has the bearing on the bottom, it can never ever move up and down , ever! That bearing stays in the same spot, the threaded rod stays in the same spot never moving ever.
Now the top triple tree does move up and down. If it is up too high you have play in the steering, tighten down the stem nuts and that top clamp moves down closer, further down that threaded shaft to get rid of play.
If you loosened both nuts (there are two nuts, one above and one below the upper triple tree clamp) which move that whole upper triple tree clamp up and down the threaded shaft. The shaft cannot move up and down, it is solid and part of the bottom clamp and the bottom clamp never moves up and down so if the shock tubes are clamped to the bottom and not the top they never ever move.
Think of it this way, the weight of the motorcycle rests on the lower bearing which is part of the lower triple tree clamp and that threaded rod, none of which can move up and down. You can remove the top triple tree clamp and throw it away and the bike does not move any lower ( as long as the shock tubes are still clamped to the lower triple tree) Try clamping the fork tubes to the upper triple tree and remove both nuts and bike slides down the tubes to the ground. The lower clamp and shaft will still be in the exact same spot because it keeps the same relationship to the goose neck.
I hope this helps you to understand because I cannot help you any more than this.
If you read this and you are not Cholla be aware that the above is just a very simplified example to explain basic mechanical theory..
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If the threaded rod is connected to the lower clamp and you tighten a nut on that rod, which way will said rod move?It will move UPWARD, taking the fork tubes with it, unless you loosen the pinch bolts.
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http://youtu.be/6MT3CihStFQ (http://youtu.be/6MT3CihStFQ)
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Enough Already!
Both methods work.
Case Closed....