Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: RFH87_Connie on June 22, 2015, 06:31:19 AM
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This is just for information purposes in case someone ever has a problem like this. :chugbeer:
So, I parked my red bike about two and a half years ago after it developed a tap that got consistently louder with additional miles. This occurred after I blew one motor then got another of unknown origin with (according to the odometer) less than 50k on it. It had a slight tap when it started that wouldn't go away (even after a few valve adjustment checks. Over a few months it got worse so it got parked until I could diagnose it. At least I had another one to ride. I spoke to SISF about it at the time and he had a suggestion on what it may be, and as I suspected, it involved removing and inspecting parts in the top end. The thought was that rockers can wear down and start to tap when their seat is deformed. So, I reopened it last week. Both cams had great looking lobes so there was no real tell-tale sign of where to start looking. I started with the intake cam. When I pulled it you could feel the problem child with your finger pretty easily. All of the rockers when new have a seat that is arched upwards, kind of like a roof. The rocker on cylinder 4 was dished inward (or downward). The picture below illustrates this. The worn one has a tiny bit of pitting on the edges but no galling. It also has slight lip on one side. I'm guessing it just wasn't case-hardened properly. The oil port seems to be the same size as the others. I took one off my parts engine and replaced it. I inspected the exhaust cam also and found nothing. I was nervous when I restarted it. However, it was quiet immediately. What a relief!
Hopefully, this may help someone in the future. Thanks again Steve! You see, we listen to you sometimes. Now I just have to fix that leaking balancer shaft seal.
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Great little write-up with a helpful pic. Thanks.
The rockers can get pitting as well as the cams? I thought it was just the cam lobes.
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We have to educate Ma Kawasaki, bikes that are meant to be ridden long distances over many years should have components properly case hardened.
How much did she save?
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The rockers can get pitting as well as the cams? I thought it was just the cam lobes.
I never heard of it until I saw it. It is very small like grains of salt. It is at the bottom edge of the left rocker in the picture below. You can feel them with your finger nail including the lines going across the ridge. The one on the right, despite it's gray appearance and generally not looking pretty, feels perfect. I would think that is carbon filling in the micro-grooves. Break-Clean and carb cleaner would not take it off.
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Thanks for the info. I'll be checking my top end when I do valves this fall.
How were the rest of the lobes and rockers?
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Everything else was fine - almost new looking except for the gray sheen here and there on some of the surfaces. However, in order to check the pads you have to pull off the cams as it sits directly below them. I would just tend to say wipe your finger across an oily cam lobe to see if it is smooth. If it is smooth, it is probably OK. Also inspect for pitting on the lobes, but the general consensus is to still use it because a pitted cam shaft usually outlasts the bike (from what I've heard). Mine started making a noise almost like a cam chain that was loose and sloppy but coming from the opposite side up high. It pretty much started to sound violent. It changed with RPM obviously.
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good education for a newbie. thank you...
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You are most welcome! I'm in Lorton by the way. Harbor View to be exact.
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Oh!!! Where have you been??
You are practically my neighbor ~15 miles away, or 45 mins in traffic! I am in Alexandria. I can always benefit from a local Connie enthusiast.
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Just out of curiosity RFH, (AND NOT TO START A PI**IN' C ONTEST) what oil have you been using & at what intervals has it been changed?
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The rockers probably were properly hardened from the factory. Severe wiping loads need heavy metal impregnation to protect the surface. Pushing two valve springs with a single lobe is right at the edge of maxed out design anyway.
Cams and rocker on all kinds of vehicles have been being stressed since the EPA had them take the Zinc out of motor oil. Stuff with diesel ratings has a little more Zinc.
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Just out of curiosity RFH, what oil have you been using & at what intervals has it been changed?
The blown motor pretty much always got Hondaline 10W40 (sometimes Golden Spectro) at the appropriate mileage or time. The "motor of unknown origin" with the bad rocker, Obviously, I don't know. This probably doesn't tell you what you are wanting know. The blown motor made it to almost 45k. It got a 1/16" bent #2 rod from hydrolock at about 19k. The fuel problem was fixed and oil was changed with no engine start ups. However, from what I was informed of a couple years ago (never heard of it at the time the engine blew) the #3 crank journal is prone to failure (happens sometimes but rarely) on this particular engine. But it always seems to be #3. Before I told the local shop mechanic that It was #3 that when went he asked if it was #3. I will say that the other top end parts look great in this motor that had a tapping rocker. It seems to be just this one bad rocker.
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RFH87_Connie,
hmmm I'm tring to ignore the ticking I'm hearing... :popcorn: when the intake cam was 3 teeth off I didn't hear any ticking... (it just ran like crap LOL) now that it's where it's supposed to be I feel ike I'm hearing it! I REALLY don't want to open her again right now! If I sent you a recording would you be able to tell? Also I really don't hear any ticking when she is both warm and not idling... but when idling or reved a bit when cold... freaks me out a bit.
The "3rd con rod bearing" I thought that was ONLY a ZX11 thing?? (of which mine did mainly because I didn't know about it and I let an "R1" buddy ride it.
I am in southern MD not far from you... If I rode out to you would you listen?? (I don't want to "impose")
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I too do NOT want to start a Peeing contest but I would like to share an oil that I've come to trust. The machine shop that punched out my ZX11 (for the biggest pistons I could find) swore by this stuff! and these guys made real dragsters (cars). I asked why he thought his stuff was better and he said because of all the zinc and other metals in this particular oil... My understanding is you can NOT use this stuff in a vehicle with a "Cat" because the metals will wipe it out. but he says that the motors that he works on, that use this stuff, look WAY better when he's re-building them! Which is nomal for the Drag Racing community.
This stuff is really hard to get here in MD I go to a place near Bud's Creek area (which is were many race in MD) and I buy a couple cases at a wack (price is pretty good too surprisingly)
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Amazon will deliver to your doorstep. ;)
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Tappy valves are happy valves.
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drag cars never see the rpm we use everyday, mile after mile...
I don't wanna change oil every 4 miles, nor tear down my engine, ever....
ymmv.
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Loading is loading... My guy (that did the bore job) said that he had guys shearing lobes off of cams left and right till he went to this stuff (and of course there are other brands too...) You were talking about cams and rockers right? :banghead: and I haven't spun that 3 con rod bearing (on the ZX11) and it's been almost 50k since I rebuilt it (and I only use this stuff in that bike)
I don't know about you but I change my oil every 3 K... I don't know ANY oil that can't eaisly make it out to that...
"every 4 miles"... shame on you HA HA HA
and I get what you mean (that drag guys don't put much miles before rebuilds) but I was making a point about "loading" this guy builds all kinds of racers (and he obviously had the gear to deal with my tiny little 1100 cc engine) ... so "work with me here"
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I'd gladly listen to your bike but I am going to OBX until Thursday next week. I'm over in Lorton, VA. Most likely you are hearing the cam chain and as said before: "Happy valves are tappy valves". When you don't hear them they are not closing fully (out of adjustment). The rod issue sounds normal until it failed at a little over 80mph. The bent rod never made any different sounds or caused a noticeable performance change either. Maybe a little extra vibes from a slightly lower compression.
I'm not sure but perhaps the engines share the same casting molds for the blocks or at least the same design specs? Maybe the same as the ZX9 which might be the same as the ZX11 back then? The shop foreman called the piston before I told him so it seems to be a known scenario. It still had about 2.5 quarts of oil in it when I got it home. Just poked a nice hole in the seam.
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The tap I was hearing can't be confused with either the cam chain (kind of random grinding/slapping) or the valves in general (consistent but light). A failed CCT makes a lot of racket but it is too inconsistent (grinding/slapping) to be confused with this also. I would think a worn alternator chain would sound similar to a cam chain too. This could be felt lightly in the bars at first and steadily got more forceful (made me kind of wince) until I knew it was time to park it before something broke.
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Ouch. Always painful to look at.
Don't know if you answered this before...but did you find out what precipitated to this happening to your engine?
I'd gladly listen to your bike but I am going to OBX until Thursday next week. I'm over in Lorton, VA. Most likely you are hearing the cam chain and as said before: "Happy valves are tappy valves". When you don't hear them they are not closing fully (out of adjustment). The rod issue sounds normal until it failed at a little over 80mph. The bent rod never made any different sounds or caused a noticeable performance change either. Maybe a little extra vibes from a slightly lower compression.
I'm not sure but perhaps the engines share the same casting molds for the blocks or at least the same design specs? Maybe the same as the ZX9 which might be the same as the ZX11 back then? The shop foreman called the piston before I told him so it seems to be a known scenario. It still had about 2.5 quarts of oil in it when I got it home. Just poked a nice hole in the seam.
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Yes DCC, I would like to know more about how that happened too. ( I thought it was just me... or that you might have covered it at some other point here)
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Don't know if you answered this before...but did you find out what precipitated to this happening to your engine?
No. I never heard a definitive answer but I think I remember that the discussion was that the oil passage was prone to be either not bored or cast well restricting the flow to the main bearing on #3 - but I could be mistaken. This would apply to ALL of the bikes that used the same engine casting as ours.
Found this while surfing the net on a Kawasaki forum and sounds reasonable:
No one really understands how the #3 is the weak Link nowadays! Back in the day the 1984 900 has an Oil Supply tube that is 1 inch long between the oil Pump and #1 & 2 Mains, but for 3 & 4 the tube is brazed in at a 90 degree angle to this 1 inch tube and is about "5" Inches Long. So when you Port the Oil Pump (Wheelies and Stoppies moving the Oil away from the pick up) when the oil returns #1 & #2 are quickly Fed Oil and it takes a lot longer for #3 * #4. Even my ZX11 had the Exact same Oil Line!
I replaced the pan and had Terry Kizer (Mr. Turbo) make up a dual supply line which helps!
On the ZX12 they have separate oil supplies but again the oil Pick up is under #1 & #2 so the distance from the Pump is STILL Farther away!
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More internet so it must be true:
I remember building a few ZX11's and the problem stemmed to a great extent from the oil hole in the cases not lining up with the oil hole in the main bearing closest to the number 3 rod. Either the cases or the bearing half had to be modified to assure proper alignment so the oil flow was not restricted. Lack of oil in this area caused #3 rod bearing failure due to oil starvation. There was also the standard oil pan bypass modification on the ZX11's that also helped with the problem.
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OIL THREAD!! OIL THREAD! ::)
Well my oil is better than yours. :deadhorse:
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No Mettler1, I don't see anyone saying that here actually!
and yes there were all kinds of speculations as to the cause of the #3 bearing failure. Being a present day rider and owner of the bike that is MOST famous for the "#3" failure" thing AND having a spun bearing sitting next to my console (that I replaced)... the reason matters to me and Just like my Hydro'd Connie... I have NO interest in either things happening again!
I have come to the conclusion (personally) that most knowledge people feel the bearing failures are related to the oil pump sucking air! So I have to keep the bike a little over filled (and yes that has messed with the seal on the water pump and I've had to fix that too)
ANY oil that is high in zinc (and other metals like it) are the best choice for this bike "ANY" (and I'm refering to oils that are designed for engine use of course!) so I am NOT in any way saying "one is better than the others" except that oils that don't have these components are proven to deal poorly with "loading / shearing" issues. I'm NO Chemist but when the oil pump draws air because the engine both pumps it too much oil to tquickly to the top end (high rev's) and has it's front wheel pointed at the sky..and happens to suck air for a millisecond... I want to deal with ANY oil that is less likely to allow "shear" And I'm only going with what I've heard and seen personally protects my bike best.
so far "knock on wood" so good, almost 50k since the rebuild and NO other adjustments to the bike when I did it (Just bigger pistons) bike now has 70k on it... The bearing failed at 23k I hadn't had it more than a few months at that point
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Brad Penn is supposed to be good oil but four things...
1) why a partial synthetic,
2) what is the percentage of synthetic base stock,
3) is the synthetic Group III, IV or V stock, and,
NOW we have an oil thread.
A former co worker had a ZX something or other and he wheelied it a lot. #3 bearing went south.
4) what is the level of zinc? It may not be compatible with catcons.
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:rotflmao: VERY GOOD! no Idea! (to all of that) and I don't understand "catcons"?
OH wait I think I know what youre talking about Catalytic converters (on the C14)... yeah DON"T DO IT!!! That much I do know. The zinc will react with the catalyst and wipe it out... and THIS (as I understand it) is THE reason it's been removed from modern motor oils. but again I'm NO chemist!
To be honest I was most worried about the clutch!!
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The stuff that's bad on clutches is molybdnum, which they added to replace the ZDDP.
Yep, catalytic converters.
We don't worry about stuff in oil, we got dry clutches... ;D
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You say'n the C14 has a dry clutch??
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No, we as in ME.
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hmmmm O...... K..... Sorry you lost me on THAT one! (but don't be mad at me, as i get wiser I realize how stupid I am) :doh:
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hmmmm O...... K..... Sorry you lost me on THAT one! (but don't be mad at me, as i get wiser I realize how stupid I am) :doh:
don't feel stupid, I saw that also... if anyone was being stupid it wasnt you, making the post he did does not coincide with effective knowledge on the Concours.... or information about same... besides, his clutch is dry because he read on the internet that his doesn't need oil...
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Gee, MoB, you're such a class act. It's good to know there is only one of you...I hope. :P
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Gee, MoB, you're such a class act. It's good to know there is only one of you...I hope. :P
thanks for stopping in, and I've been working hard on being a class act lately, and pretty much given up being a smartazz.
I try to stay with the issue at hand, and actually offer assistance, but in your case I decided to break tradition, because you are special...
now, actaully there are more, and if Bubba Steve wasn't on vacation he would have made a similar, if not more direct posting.
in truth, you posted something not relevant, and in an attempt at humor (I suppose, in your mind), it could be easily construed by someone else not knowingly, as something from someone with longevity here....
arena posts don't count. either help someone, or not, but don't confuse someone and make them feel stupid.
and yes, there can be only one.....MOB that is.....
(https://rinconbananero.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/quickening.jpg)
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Thanks for proving my point.