Author Topic: He had one job to do  (Read 4203 times)

Offline mikeyw64

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He had one job to do
« on: December 04, 2017, 03:33:04 AM »
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Offline gPink

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2017, 04:19:55 AM »
Wonder if they still get paid?

Offline maxtog

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2017, 05:38:09 AM »
Imagine how unsafe the structure is now
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2017, 06:58:22 AM »
Sure...... as soon as they actually knock the building down and cart away the debris.

And often times with these contracts, there is a late deduction although seeing as that is an abandoned area, that may not apply.

Brian

Wonder if they still get paid?
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2017, 07:07:27 AM »
Good question.

They seem to cut the main bearing stanchions with shaped charges, and the rest of the structure's weight is more than sufficient to pull the entire building down without them. But that all depends on how strong the surrounding structure actually is; it would be like cutting all the 2 X 4's bearing up a modern house, only to find that the outer sheathing is enough to continue to hold up the structure. And that would most certainly be dangerous to enter in that condition.... that sports arena may not be stable and there are no hard- hats tough enough to weather that thing collapsing. :-(

Funny thing but it would <seem> that knocking a structure down would be easy  and yet often it is not. Sure, knock the two piers out from under a suspension bridge and that bridge is going to come down but something like an earthen dam, or a concrete dam, is a lot harder to destroy. Especially if the person doing the destruction is trying to contain the damage and debris.

Brian

Imagine how unsafe the structure is now
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Offline Rhino

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2017, 08:02:30 AM »
Would be interesting to see what the follow up solution to such a situation is. Do you send it very stupid... I mean brave people to assess the situation? Do you send in Miley with the wrecking ball? Can you safely get close enough with demolition equipment? I know they have small remote controlled demo equipment with jack hammers on the end.

Good question.

They seem to cut the main bearing stanchions with shaped charges, and the rest of the structure's weight is more than sufficient to pull the entire building down without them. But that all depends on how strong the surrounding structure actually is; it would be like cutting all the 2 X 4's bearing up a modern house, only to find that the outer sheathing is enough to continue to hold up the structure. And that would most certainly be dangerous to enter in that condition.... that sports arena may not be stable and there are no hard- hats tough enough to weather that thing collapsing. :-(

Funny thing but it would <seem> that knocking a structure down would be easy  and yet often it is not. Sure, knock the two piers out from under a suspension bridge and that bridge is going to come down but something like an earthen dam, or a concrete dam, is a lot harder to destroy. Especially if the person doing the destruction is trying to contain the damage and debris.

Brian

Offline Tree

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2017, 01:02:19 PM »
I saw this live on CNN.com.  I waited around for another 30 minutes watching as people went inside the thing.  INSIDE!  We haven't heard the last of this.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2017, 02:15:25 PM »
Well, the first thing to know is how they were trying to implode the building in the first place. Of course we do not have that knowledge, but they (the contractors who rigged it) certainly do. Given that information, I would say the first thing to do is to inspect, via remote camera (drone, crawler, robotic, whatever), to find out if the original intent was completed. If it was, then it would be required to figure out what is actually holding the building up and decide how to deal with that; if not, then the obvious step would be to again rig the building to take out (or finish taking out) the supporting structure so it will fall down.

Depending entirely on the height of the building, it <may> be possible to knock it down using heavy equipment but probably not; we just do not make equipment tall and heavy enough to stand up to parts of a building falling against it. And not tall and heavy enough to have enough horizontal 'reach' to demolish the building and not have the debris land against or on the equipment being used to demolish it. Hence the explosives in the first place: they do two jobs at one time, the first is that they eliminate the hollow structure that can, and will collapse as bearing members are removed by removing all the bearing members at one time, with no one nearby. The second job is to greatly increase the density of the building as a pile of debris, something that can easily be dug into with no risk of a skeleton type of structure falling down.

My structural background is building things up and having them stay there, not knocking them down. :-)  But it looks like a fascinating business to me and part of that is the tricky part of using enough destructive force without going so far overboard that debris is blown into another time zone. Personally, I think what those folks do is much harder than to actually build a building and I do not know if I would have the 'brass' to actually push the proverbial plunger myself, if it were I that signed the permit. And I have to say that the ones I have seen are close to a work of art in not only knocking a structure down but having it fall very straight down; knocking down even a relatively short (tall) building in a big city and having it tip on the way would be a disaster. So even the failure these folks suffered was the better way; much better to have to do it twice than to have to reach out 18 city blocks to clean up the rubble that landed there.

Brian

Would be interesting to see what the follow up solution to such a situation is. Do you send it very stupid... I mean brave people to assess the situation? Do you send in Miley with the wrecking ball? Can you safely get close enough with demolition equipment? I know they have small remote controlled demo equipment with jack hammers on the end.
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Offline Conniesaki

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2017, 02:20:46 PM »
...

My structural background is building things up and having them stay there, not knocking them down. :-) 

If you can build things up, and have them stay there, doesn't that mean you have a pretty good idea of some things that would take them down?

Offline mikeyw64

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2017, 03:20:05 PM »
Give Kim Jong-Un the co-ordinates ?
 ::)

Would be interesting to see what the follow up solution to such a situation is. Do you send it very stupid... I mean brave people to assess the situation? Do you send in Miley with the wrecking ball? Can you safely get close enough with demolition equipment? I know they have small remote controlled demo equipment with jack hammers on the end.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2017, 03:24:02 PM »
Oddly enough, nope.

For a simple example: normal wooden residential construction in the US calls for 2 X 4's every 16", or 2 X 6's every 24". That makes a bearing wall, which will not only support the entire roof load above, including additional weight such as snow collection, but also at least one additional floor. Another requirement is that these 'bearing members' are cross - braced, either with planking running horizontally or sheathing fastened to the 2 X structure to keep it from having the top kick- out sideways, or 'diamonding'. All modern residential structures are built this way.

So knocking one down, from the builder's point of view, would be to simply 'break' those 2 X's that support the structure and it will all fall down..... except that the sheathing is actually quite strong and very capable of holding the structure up. It is not calculated in the bearing loads of the building but try crushing even 7/16" thick sheathing, edge- down, and it is amazingly strong. So if I were to cut all the 2 X's and the structure stood, what next?

In steel skeleton structures, again it is assumed that the vertical steel members bear the entire load but that again is too simple; all the outside sheathing attached, often welded, to those vertical members yield a tremendous amount of strength but are not figured in in the building's ability to withstand vertical load, side loading (wind) or torque load (wind not hitting exactly 90 degrees on the building). So a building with insufficient, or possibly even NO vertical bearing members MAY still stand, although it will not be safe to withstand any additional loads (people in the grandstands, snow, etc.) or natural events such as earthquakes, even earth tremors, winds, etc. So now you have a building actually standing that almost certainly WILL fall down at some point in the future but has not fallen where and when the contractors intended. A very poor state of affairs. But I cut them a lot of slack because again, it is very tricky work and once the first attempt fails, the building is now actually dangerous so the second try is far trickier yet.

What is normally done with large structures, which are always made out of steel, is to cut the bearing members using a shaped explosive charge. What is a bit unusual in the video of this particular example is the long length of external detonation (det.) cord that can be seen igniting immediately before the shaped charges go off. Anyway, the shaped charges make a chisel shaped cut right through the vertical members, leaving the building above without any support, and it falls exactly one floor so that the second floor is then on the ground. But because the entire building has a good amount of vertical (downward) velocity, the second floor does what is called 'pancaking' and it too crushes because while it can, and did, bear up the entire rest of the building, the velocity acts as a hammer blow and crushes those members. The third floor follows and so forth. The clearest example of this, unfortunately, is watching the twin World Trade Centers collapse in 2001, one floor failed due to over- heated bearing members, and the floors above 'pancaked' each floor below until all floors other than the last couple on top were destroyed.

While this failure is unfortunate, hopefully there will be no loss- of- life as the situation progresses, and frankly it is these types of 'failures' that are fascinating to learn about. And I still have every reason to believe that the original contractors, perhaps with additional outside assistance now, will still successfully bring the building down safely and I personally would not be too quick to dump all over them because as I have said, it is tricky work dropping a building straight down into a nice, neat and confined "heap".

Brian

If you can build things up, and have them stay there, doesn't that mean you have a pretty good idea of some things that would take them down?
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline Rhino

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2017, 03:38:10 PM »
Some of the videos I've seen of preparing for explosive demolition on a steel beam building, I've seen them cutting through the walls before using the shaped charges that cut the steel beams. I'm assuming this is for the exact reason you stated. Don't want to cut the beams only to have the walls support the weight and the building doesn't fall down. I don't know when this incident happened but I bet there were or will be a major port mortem on this job.

Offline mikeyw64

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2017, 04:14:04 PM »
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2017, 05:37:41 PM »
Second time was a charm....
https://youtu.be/kn9OOyB2ibs


it was clear in the first attempt, charges failed...likely det cord and lines were compromised..
I'm surprised they didn't do more "internal" pre weakening of all the stand support joisting, along with adding in "load pulling" cables attached to the exterior walls to assist in pulling them and timing those charges prior to the exterior ones..
Most tall, and significantly larger risk high buildings undergo weeks of internal cable attachments, and selective pre weakening of inner support members, prior to the charges ever being attached.. all of that totals up to success, pulling the external walls inward, and adding to the crash load to pancake the floors..
I was lucky enough to get a walk thru of a large multi story on a demo, and was amazed at the pre process..
the Cable thing was a real invisible adder, large (3/4") cables were attached in strategic areas, and corners, of upper floors, routed down thru a large hole in the center or location suitable to "pulling" the debris to the side, and down multiple floors where they actually attached huge concrete block "weights", dangling from them pulling, also many were terminated at other points dedicated for charges in a floor below, on walls and vertical supports, to assist on the pulling in of the exterior above.. truly amazing. :thumbs:

I was really surprised when I saw how much stuff was still left in that stadium for demo tho, when Cleveland demo'd the old Browns stadium, there wasn't one single seat, or even the wooden bench planking from the "Dog Pound" left in there, it was a mere shell, as fans wanted all the collectable memorabilia they could get.. My wife's son got a bunch of folding seats, he had to chisel off the studs that held them on.. I brought tools when I went to get bleecher seating from the "Pound", and wish I brought a torch, there were people there with Oxy-Acet rigs, that were smart.. and they could torch off any bolt in seconds.. they were charging a premium by the way... prolly could have made a couple grand in one day just torching off mounting bolts...
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Offline Nosmo

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2017, 06:17:13 PM »


When they brought down the old Kingdome here in Seattle it went down like the sack of crap that it was.  All in one shot and FAST. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiftDBtCFt8

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2017, 06:19:55 PM »
I couldn't bring myself to go downtown to watch this one at 1 in the morn...

https://youtu.be/sCloDK8YI8U

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Offline Rhino

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2017, 06:57:43 AM »
I couldn't bring myself to go downtown to watch this one at 1 in the morn...

https://youtu.be/sCloDK8YI8U

Would love to see one in person but I'm guessing they don't let you get close enough for a really good view of it.

Offline Tree

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2017, 01:06:37 PM »
Would love to see one in person but I'm guessing they don't let you get close enough for a really good view of it.

Almost as awesome of getting a close up view when we tested Special Weapons back in the 1950's.  Nothing like getting a blast of radioactive plasma in the face.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2017, 01:38:40 PM »
The one that would have been best avoided was Castle Bravo; it was supposed to be a very large device, designed to yield ~5 megatons TNT equivalent. But like the old saying that only a very smart person can do truly vast damage because nobody would trust a fool with such important tasks in the first place, the physicists who designed the pit missed by a bit and assumed the majority of the material supplying the fusion fuel was not reactive and would not contribute to the reaction. The Lithium 7 they ignored actually did NOT react but it did provide far more tritium than expected, making a nominal yield of 5 megatons actually deliver over 15 megatons. Opps. Lots 'a extra radiation, covering a much, much larger area than intended, both resulting in large- scale radiation contamination and of course, the resulting illnesses, short term and long term, as well as badly contaminating the Japanese fishing vessel 'Lucky Dragon No. 5', which is a fascinating, if very unfortunate, happening all by itself.

Castle Bravo was a secret thermonuclear test but the seismographic readings around the world and the huge doses of radiation found.... well, all over the place, kind of gave it away. It ended up being the largest weapon ever tested by the US (the Soviets would later test larger, actually MUCH larger devices) and the whole thing was a mistake.

Hope you were not at that one, although being that the test occurred in 1954, it would make you over 80 yrs. old and so probably not affected by the fallout at all.

Brian

Almost as awesome of getting a close up view when we tested Special Weapons back in the 1950's.  Nothing like getting a blast of radioactive plasma in the face.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline Conniesaki

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Re: He had one job to do
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2017, 01:58:08 PM »
The one that would have been best avoided was Castle Bravo; it was supposed to be a very large device, designed to yield ~5 megatons TNT equivalent. But like the old saying that only a very smart person can do truly vast damage because nobody would trust a fool with such important tasks in the first place, the physicists who designed the pit missed by a bit and assumed the majority of the material supplying the fusion fuel was not reactive and would not contribute to the reaction. The Lithium 7 they ignored actually did NOT react but it did provide far more tritium than expected, making a nominal yield of 5 megatons actually deliver over 15 megatons. Opps. Lots 'a extra radiation, covering a much, much larger area than intended, both resulting in large- scale radiation contamination and of course, the resulting illnesses, short term and long term, as well as badly contaminating the Japanese fishing vessel 'Lucky Dragon No. 5', which is a fascinating, if very unfortunate, happening all by itself.

Castle Bravo was a secret thermonuclear test but the seismographic readings around the world and the huge doses of radiation found.... well, all over the place, kind of gave it away. It ended up being the largest weapon ever tested by the US (the Soviets would later test larger, actually MUCH larger devices) and the whole thing was a mistake.

Hope you were not at that one, although being that the test occurred in 1954, it would make you over 80 yrs. old and so probably not affected by the fallout at all.

Brian

I always wondered if that was really an accident. Blowin' stuff up is fun. And if it's not too difficult to make your explosion bigger, especially when somebody else is paying, hey why not.

Well, OK, the 'why not' was all the radiated people ... but, boys and their toys.