Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Eupher on July 20, 2018, 04:22:41 PM

Title: Smell of Gas
Post by: Eupher on July 20, 2018, 04:22:41 PM
I tank up with 93 octane, so I guess it's a little more oomphy than the normal 87 octane I put in my cages.

Not that there's a problem (there isn't that I'm aware of), but in the Arkansas heat we have had lately, I've noticed a gasoline odor probably coming from the tank.

I know the tank is vented, so I'm assuming that's the source.

But I'm curious -- anybody else notice the general smell of gasoline around the bike, not in the oil or anywhere else? Just in general?
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: jwh20 on July 20, 2018, 04:30:20 PM
Yes, that's normal especially after having ridden the bike or parking it in the sun.  The vapors in the tank escape through the vent and you often can smell it.  I'd say that unless you're seeing liquid gasoline leaking out there is nothing to worry about.
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: maxtog on July 20, 2018, 04:40:47 PM
 :goodpost:

Yep, that.

(Plus, higher octane gas doesn't have more "oomph" or power.  It is HARDER to ignite than lower octane gas.  Generally, one should use the lowest octane gas that is at or above the manufacturer's specification to get the best performance, mileage, price, and reliability.... but you probably already knew that :) )
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: Poseidon on July 20, 2018, 05:19:11 PM
What year did they start putting evap canisters on the Concours? I know my 2017 has one. That should take car of the gas smell unless the canister is completely flooded.
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: Eupher on July 20, 2018, 05:28:52 PM
:goodpost:

Yep, that.

(Plus, higher octane gas doesn't have more "oomph" or power.  It is HARDER to ignite than lower octane gas.  Generally, one should use the lowest octane gas that is at or above the manufacturer's specification to get the best performance, mileage, price, and reliability.... but you probably already knew that :) )

Actually, I didn't. Thanks for mentioning it. Probably like many others, I go along with the idea that higher octane for aviation (100 octane, low lead for private aircraft, something I know a little bit about) and, I guess, the "top fuel" methanol-driven engines that power the dragsters I seem to remember (Daddy Garlits, anyone?), spell more performance and "combustibility," but I am no chemical engineer.

Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: Poseidon on July 20, 2018, 05:37:30 PM
Actually, I didn't. Thanks for mentioning it. Probably like many others, I go along with the idea that higher octane for aviation (100 octane, low lead for private aircraft, something I know a little bit about) and, I guess, the "top fuel" methanol-driven engines that power the dragsters I seem to remember (Daddy Garlits, anyone?), spell more performance and "combustibility," but I am no chemical engineer.

Those higher compression motors can pre-detonate lower octane fuels causing damage. That is why higher octane fuels are required in performance motors.
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: Eupher on July 20, 2018, 05:40:49 PM
Those higher compression motors can pre-detonate lower octane fuels causing damage. That is why higher octane fuels are required in performance motors.

I learned something today. Thank you.
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: Deziner on July 20, 2018, 05:54:14 PM
Higher octane fuel burns slower (or would that be more slowly?) than the lower octane fuel. Lower octane is actually more explosive, that's why it will cause an engine to "ping". You can run more "advance" or "lead" in the ignition timing with higher octane fuel promoting a more complete burn off the air/fuel mixture. You can also run a higher compression ratio if you are going to use high octane fuel.
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on July 20, 2018, 06:15:00 PM
stepping away from the "less filling/tastes great" discussion,

I will say that after I had stored my bike, with 87 octane, and Marine Stabil mixture over the winter, I had topped up my tank with the 94 stuff, and I will say altho I never notice any fumes from the bike prior, it did emit some stronger fumes yesterday, after A spirited, 100 mile ride... and was parked in the garage.

I'm not worried, it seems normal, and when it vents, well, the thing is doing it's job...

as for "when" did they all start having the canisters installed, I'm not sure, I know they ALL have them now, and have since '15 when they added the O2 sensors, but my '08 does not have one... but it's a Virginia bike...

my guess is around '10-'11 ?

Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: maxtog on July 20, 2018, 09:15:57 PM
Actually, I didn't. Thanks for mentioning it. Probably like many others, I go along with the idea that higher octane for aviation (100 octane, low lead for private aircraft, something I know a little bit about) and, I guess, the "top fuel" methanol-driven engines that power the dragsters I seem to remember (Daddy Garlits, anyone?), spell more performance and "combustibility," but I am no chemical engineer.

Unfortunately, it is something that gas companies LIKE consumers to be confused about.  Hence the word "premium" slapped on it.  There is nothing "premium" about higher octane gas, except the price.  Higher octane is not "better" gas, any more than the color red is better than blue or green or yellow in your coolant.  There is also a misconception that high octane gas has more or better additives, which is also 100% false.  The purpose of higher octane is to prevent pre-ingition in engines that need it.  If you put high octane gas in an engine not designed for it, it will perform WORSE.  The C14 needs it, in its range of maximum compression (remember, it has variable valve timing, so it is not enough to look at just the static compression ratio) and temperature operation.  In some cases, you can get away with running "mid range" or even low, if you are not pushing the bike hard, and/or at certain elevations and/or at very colder temperatures.  But it is a gamble.  And some engines (NOT ON THE CONCOURS) there are knock sensors that will mess with the timing and fuel ratio to try and *cope* with being given [wrong] gas with too low an octane.... but, as you might guess, at a cost; lost performance, more fouling (which leads to reliability issues and service problems), possible engine stress, etc.

The other thing- higher octane gas doesn't cost ANYWHERE NEAR what it used to cost to make (due to technology improvements).  The price is typically severely artificially inflated.  And it is obvious when you compare the price difference between high and low octane price gas at "normal" gas stations to places like Costco/BJ's who don't rip people off.
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: khager01 on August 08, 2018, 04:57:19 AM
Speaking of the price difference.  For some reason here in Texas there is a 50 to 60 cent price difference between regular and premium and I have seen as high as 80 cent difference at one station.  In California there is usually only a 20 to 30 cent difference.  Now granted premium is only 91 octane in CA and 93 in TX, and of course the overall gas prices are higher in CA.  Mid grade is 89 octane in both CA and TX.
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on August 08, 2018, 02:44:05 PM
Speaking of the price difference.  For some reason here in Texas there is a 50 to 60 cent price difference between regular and premium and I have seen as high as 80 cent difference at one station.  In California there is usually only a 20 to 30 cent difference.  Now granted premium is only 91 octane in CA and 93 in TX, and of course the overall gas prices are higher in CA.  Mid grade is 89 octane in both CA and TX.

JUST HAD STICKER SHOCK...
picked up some gas for my mower the other day, and was looking at the prices (Sunoco)
the 87 oct I use for my mower was $2.72 a gal, 93 oct was up to $3.88 a gallon... bastiches... ???
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: Tree on August 09, 2018, 01:27:58 PM
If I read this post right I suspect that nearly everyone has had a whiff of gas fumes while sitting on the bike.  OK, good.  Me too.  Thankfully it goes away completely at highway speeds...

Gas companies can bite me with their inflated prices for premium fuel.

Has anyone tried Octane Boost?  Can I buy low octane fuel and boost it and is their a savings on overall fuel cost?
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: maxtog on August 09, 2018, 03:32:46 PM
If I read this post right I suspect that nearly everyone has had a whiff of gas fumes while sitting on the bike.

Pretty much, yeah.  At least occasionally.  No doubt it is usually from having expansion in the gas inside the tank and it having to vent a little.

Quote
Gas companies can bite me with their inflated prices for premium fuel.

Mostly because consumers are falling for it, thinking it is really worth so much extra, when it isn't (and using it when they shouldn't).  If you have a Costco- that seems to be the best deal around; their spread is a fraction of just about everyone else.  I think BJ's is not as good as Costco, but a good 2nd place.

Quote
Has anyone tried Octane Boost?  Can I buy low octane fuel and boost it and is their a savings on overall fuel cost?

I am not sure any snake oil will work effectively and without any unintended consequences.  I am betting many people will say what I will say- "I am not going to take THAT chance on damaging MY engine".   In the old days, you could just add some lead :)
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: jwh20 on August 09, 2018, 04:30:08 PM
Has anyone tried Octane Boost?  Can I buy low octane fuel and boost it and is their a savings on overall fuel cost?

I think you'll find that these, while possibly effective, are not a bargain.  Usually they push the $/gal above the retail price for Premium Unleaded.  They are good to use in a pinch, but for daily use, just fork over the money to big oil.
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: kzz1king on August 09, 2018, 07:47:56 PM
I burn premium in my small engines just to avoid the ethanol. Especially right before storing them away for winter. stable helps but it's not as good as staying away from ethanol to start with
Wayne
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: maxtog on August 09, 2018, 10:54:55 PM
I burn premium in my small engines just to avoid the ethanol.

In VA (and I assumed most States), *all* gas is ethanol contaminated, with the exception of a few, specialty, very rural stations (essentially non-existent and extremely expensive), totally unrelated to octane level.

https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=VA (https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=VA)
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: jwh20 on August 10, 2018, 10:49:39 AM
In VA (and I assumed most States), *all* gas is ethanol contaminated, with the exception of a few, specialty, very rural stations (essentially non-existent and extremely expensive), totally unrelated to octane level.

https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=VA (https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=VA)

I guess I'm fortunate that there are two stations in my area selling E0 gasoline.  The local marina has it as well as the local Farm Bureau Coop.  It is more expensive but I've found that for outdoor power equipment and other engines with carbs, it's a LOT less expensive than rebuilding or replacing carbs nearly every year.  I have found that many engines will continue to corrode even if you completely drain the fuel before storage.
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: maxtog on August 10, 2018, 12:41:04 PM
I am convinced that ethanol ruined my last bike, a carbureted ZRX-11.
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: VirginiaJim on August 10, 2018, 02:41:20 PM
In VA (and I assumed most States), *all* gas is ethanol contaminated, with the exception of a few, specialty, very rural stations (essentially non-existent and extremely expensive), totally unrelated to octane level.

https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=VA (https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=VA)


I think it's more than a few, Max.  We've got a Murphy's in Dahlgren where you can buy straight regular gas.   Cost's more and tried it my truck and didn't detect any difference.  I saw quite a few stations in southwest VA carrying non-ethanol gas.
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: maxtog on August 10, 2018, 04:16:37 PM
I think it's more than a few, Max.  We've got a Murphy's in Dahlgren where you can buy straight regular gas.   I saw quite a few stations in southwest VA carrying non-ethanol gas.

Just basing it on observation and that site I posted.  Seems half of what is on the site is closed, non-car, or racing fuel, and all of it was very rural (aka "nowhere" to most people).  Never heard of "Dahlgren", had to look it up on a map.... yep.... looks pretty "nowhere" :)

Quote
Cost's more and tried it my truck and didn't detect any difference. 

I doubt one will notice any actual difference in ride or performance, only the long-term issues with ethanol ruining equipment and collecting water.... oh and increasing the price of gas.   Ethanol needs to die Die DIE!!
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: kzz1king on August 10, 2018, 09:00:49 PM
Common in the northern plains.
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: katata1100 on August 10, 2018, 11:12:41 PM
The best article I read on octane boosters was done by a magazine called sport compact truck or something like that. They used a lab that had an octane tester and measured.
Summary- there are two things that really do improve octane , and I’m not talking about .1 point, more like 3+ points. Of course there is a catch.
Toluene and mmt work!
The amount of improvement was greater with 87 than 91. Still, they can raise 91 to 93 ( I think, going by memory).
However... toluene can slow burn down so much that you can have flame come out exhaust! It can still be burning on exhaust cycle . Use less, it’s fine. It’s also $$$. My local paint shop wanted $20 a gallon, not cheap.
Mmt is magnese. Works great , like lead . Cheap too! But, it can leave deposits on your spark plugs, eventually foul then if over used.
Other additives, like alcohol, are not practical. I’m thinking that rather than using the 91 oct stuff that’s 10% alc, my bike my prefer some 87 oct boat fuel ( no alc in it) with a pint of toulene added. But, the possibility of splashing some toluene on the tank paint is enough to discourage me from doing it.
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: Daytona_Mike on August 13, 2018, 01:27:09 PM
:goodpost:

Yep, that.

(Plus, higher octane gas doesn't have more "oomph" or power.  It is HARDER to ignite than lower octane gas.  Generally, one should use the lowest octane gas that is at or above the manufacturer's specification to get the best performance, mileage, price, and reliability.... but you probably already knew that :) )

 :goodpost:  I agree. Anything higher than what is needed is wasting money.
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on August 13, 2018, 03:07:23 PM
The best article I read on octane boosters was done by a magazine called sport compact truck or something like that. They used a lab that had an octane tester and measured.
Summary- there are two things that really do improve octane , and I’m not talking about .1 point, more like 3+ points. Of course there is a catch.
Toluene and mmt work!
The amount of improvement was greater with 87 than 91. Still, they can raise 91 to 93 ( I think, going by memory).
However... toluene can slow burn down so much that you can have flame come out exhaust! It can still be burning on exhaust cycle . Use less, it’s fine. It’s also $$$. My local paint shop wanted $20 a gallon, not cheap.
Mmt is magnese. Works great , like lead . Cheap too! But, it can leave deposits on your spark plugs, eventually foul then if over used.
Other additives, like alcohol, are not practical. I’m thinking that rather than using the 91 oct stuff that’s 10% alc, my bike my prefer some 87 oct boat fuel ( no alc in it) with a pint of toulene added. But, the possibility of splashing some toluene on the tank paint is enough to discourage me from doing it.

the older I get, and the more people I see coming up with extreme Chemical Induced Illness', daily, turning them into unproductive health care drains, and just basically sad and sick people.. that once were healthy...I just have to question why anyone would feel the need to, or actually take it upon themselves, to add MORE chemicals, to the sea of poison we all breath everyday...
I'm not being a 'nanny' about fuel as it exists today, I'm sure a lot has been done to reduce the detrimental output of toxins, been living thru this 'exercise in futility' for 5 decades of permutations..(5 decades of fuel revisions, that is). Lead HAS been removed from fuel, and not many of us suffer from that happening... there was a reason for it's removal.
I find it interesting that prior to it's removal, for the better part of the century, right up to the point someone said..."hey, that is toxic.." it was 'OK to have..." and viola, overnight, gasoline changed...  I have a motorcycle that has a catalytic insert in the exhaust, and it IS in there for a reason..

MMT.... 'Magnese' does not appear on my periodic table as an element...( I assume you actually meant 'manganese'.. ) and if if you add the stuff,(MMT), willy nilly, to gasoline,(which is already containing what the 'safe levels' for use are already in it....) under the guise 'it's safe', some thought should be placed in what MMT really consists of...
Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl.. the chemical 'bond' which creates the structure, is the issue, not the manganese...

as for the Toluene, it's extremely funny you noted the price, as it is so cheaply manufactured, it is not even something to be synthesized in a lab condition.. basically it's worth about $0.18 / gallon.... yeah,  :rotflmao:  the 'online costs' vary from pennies to $$$... last can I bought for shop use, ran me about $12/gal. but that was generic 'solvent use', not 'lab quality'.... (i'm sure there is no difference, physically...as the contents did not disclose 'fillers')
as for the 'cost', that has been driven out of the necessity to 'restrict' its purpose for intentional inhalation, for intoxicating effects...( or, and for clandestine drug lab use... ),  not saying it does much to reduce the sale, but as Benzene( now pretty much banned as a toxin), has been pulled, it's use a a common solvent for many industries keeps it in circulation. Al tho I wouldn't add it to fuel either, it has been used in the past in high concentration as a fuel, but it needs to be pre heated to extract it's best properties as a fuel. It's use in Europe has been banned in anything limiting it's content to less than 1% by volume.

I just watched a series about people with chronic health degradation, debilitating in each case, caused by simple everyday contact with things like mold spores, but many of these people had some exposures to 'metals/minerals', in airborne forms, that did in fact contribute to their health issues..
the whole 'chemical dump site' we create daily, even though it may not effect us individually, does add to what the future of everyone living, or not born yet, must endure...
I'm just glad I was lucky enough to be resistant to all the chemicals, and toxic metals/materials I was exposed to thru my life, and hope I never see the effects of them exacerbated before my time is done.. however, unlike biological hazards, (germs, virus', etc.,living organisms,) that thru generations tolerances for them rise, and make the future children more resistant, the toxic chemical footprint, and it's effects, are the complete opposite... the tolerance levels of my grand children, and their grand children, will become soo fragile to the cumulative toxins buildup, that a simple whiff could be fatal.

I'm off the Soap Box, sorry for being a Debbi Downer... if you get dirty looks for farting in a crowded place, just tell them they are lucky it was only a fart... and not a new fuel modification... for more horsepower, to satisfy your desires.

peace,
wear clean undies,
ride safe.
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: gPink on August 13, 2018, 06:44:22 PM
Damn Rich, been spraying any Round Up lately?  :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on August 14, 2018, 05:11:52 PM
not lately.
still trying to use up all the Pyrethrum Dr. Benway hooked me up with, but the damned Mugwumps keep showing up.. and ruining my buzz... not to mention just how much
they make it difficult to use my keyboard, and sometimes creep me out.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-C1MeExNCEA4/Te1UMpiavxI/AAAAAAAABV0/yUbq3cY5d2A/s1600/Naked+Lunch+4.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SNApGgqSFyg/U1JPiLY6ifI/AAAAAAAAClM/z3ZHMHqxEaw/s1600/nakedlunchbug.jpg)

be safe
wear a filter mask,
enjoy.
Title: Re: Smell of Gas
Post by: Eupher on August 20, 2018, 02:11:37 PM
Toluene - definitely a cancer-causing chemical. It has uses in chemical engineering and in other applications, but those messing with it definitely protect themselves.