Author Topic: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)  (Read 31699 times)

Offline Tree

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2017, 12:50:26 AM »
My drawing reference is pages 16-14 & 16-15,  Electrical System Wiring Diagram (ABS Equipped Models).  The drawing is a PDF file that has http://mototh.com on the bottom/footer of the page.  I honestly can't recall where I got it from. (honest).  My bike is a 2008.

Fuse Issue #1:
Fuse box #3, fuse #3 (10A) is labelled SMART on top of the fuse box cover and the drawing refers to it as KIPASS fuse 10A.  Fuse #3 only goes to the KIPASS ECU at 2 different pins as far as the drawing that I have shows.  That fuse blows whether or not the KIPASS ECU is connected or not, so I am doubting the accuracy of the drawing as far as power flow is concerned.

Fuse Issue #2:
Fuse box #2, fuse #2 (15A) for the ECU blows when the ECU is connected.  It does not blow with the ECU disconnected.

That's as far as I got before it started to rain and I had to cover everything up.

Thanks for the replies.

Offline just gone

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2017, 10:13:05 AM »
Yes, there is a discrepancy between the label on fuse box #3 and the usually seen online wiring diagram.
I have found that on my 2010 model the label on the fuse box is accurate. (I'm assuming your 2008 looks the same only without a grip heater circuit?)
Here for comparison:



ANSWER BACK is the Kipass signal relay fuse. I've never removed the KIPASS fuse (labeled SMART) nor the Oil Control Valve fuse, but I verified the other 4 as being accurate
on the label on the fuse block cover. I've always wanted to see how the bike would run without the OCV fuse but never tested it out of fear of damage to the VVT system. The
usually seen online 2008 wiring diagram doesn't seem to be as accurate as the 2010 diagram (it shows the OCV on the same fuse as the O2 sensor heater? perhaps an EU 2008?).

I think the (2010) wiring diagram is accurate except for fuse box #3 and the numbering on fuse box #2 (mine is labeled 12125 instead of 123456).
 I do believe the diagram is is true to itself, so I think you should start by determining why the the SMART fuse is blowing even when the the KIPASS ECU is disconnected. Must be a short somewhere?
 Perhaps the the fuse for the ECU is blowing through the KIPASS ECU?..that is if only the KIPASS ECU is disconnected does it stop both fuses from blowing?... or does the ECU fuse still blow?
I suppose the short causing the KIPASS fuse to blow could also be in the steering lock unit since you were into that as well right? You might have nicked a wire while you were working on the switch?

I sure hope I haven't muddied the waters here with this post.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2017, 12:30:48 PM »
Yes, that is what flashes the four lights.

But I am a bit put off by the dotted box around the diodes and am reading something into that. ?? Maybe nothing too, I just do not know.

Brian

Totally unrelated to the problem that TREE is having, but isn't that just a diode setup that allows the KIPASS flash (all four turn signals) at startup without the left and right turn signals being interconnected during regular signal operation?....not understanding the 'secret' box reference.  ???
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2017, 12:34:45 PM »
I must have an old schematic because mine looks nothing like that at all.

Thanks for the photo Marty, now I will hunt around and see if I can come up with a schematic that matches those fuse positions and labels.

Tree, ignore my previous posts they are apparently based on the wrong schematic, or the schematic and the actual fuse labeling on the bike are different. Either way, let me see if I can get Marty's photo and <any> schematic to agree before I say anything else.

Brian

Yes, there is a discrepancy between the label on fuse box #3 and the usually seen online wiring diagram.
I have found that on my 2010 model the label on the fuse box is accurate. (I'm assuming your 2008 looks the same only without a grip heater circuit?)
Here for comparison:



ANSWER BACK is the Kipass signal relay fuse. I've never removed the KIPASS fuse (labeled SMART) nor the Oil Control Valve fuse, but I verified the other 4 as being accurate
on the label on the fuse block cover. I've always wanted to see how the bike would run without the OCV fuse but never tested it out of fear of damage to the VVT system. The
usually seen online 2008 wiring diagram doesn't seem to be as accurate as the 2010 diagram (it shows the OCV on the same fuse as the O2 sensor heater? perhaps an EU 2008?).

I think the (2010) wiring diagram is accurate except for fuse box #3 and the numbering on fuse box #2 (mine is labeled 12125 instead of 123456).
 I do believe the diagram is is true to itself, so I think you should start by determining why the the SMART fuse is blowing even when the the KIPASS ECU is disconnected. Must be a short somewhere?
 Perhaps the the fuse for the ECU is blowing through the KIPASS ECU?..that is if only the KIPASS ECU is disconnected does it stop both fuses from blowing?... or does the ECU fuse still blow?
I suppose the short causing the KIPASS fuse to blow could also be in the steering lock unit since you were into that as well right? You might have nicked a wire while you were working on the switch?

I sure hope I haven't muddied the waters here with this post.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline Tree

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2017, 07:39:24 PM »
I'm still looking at the print too.  Not much to it.  I can't get to troubleshooting it tonight but I did manage to grab a can of contact cleaner.  Thanks for the clarification on the fuse box cover Marty - and mine is different from what you have.  The SMART fuse is in position 3 on my '08 like it says on the print.

Thanks for giving this a look Brian.  Much appreciated.

Hey, the rain stopped!

Offline Tree

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2017, 06:27:19 PM »
The right side connector (viewed from the front) is blowing the 15A fuse for the ECU.  I ran out of fuses.

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2017, 08:24:05 PM »
The right side connector (viewed from the front) is blowing the 15A fuse for the ECU.  I ran out of fuses.

Oh, that's easy, just use a coin!   :stirpot:   :yikes:
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2017, 05:57:08 AM »
Or tinfoil.   I nearly torched a car using that method.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2017, 06:32:07 AM »
What stopped it, run out of tinfoil?

Remember, you have to use 'copious amounts' for it to reach the full rating....



Brian

Or tinfoil.   I nearly torched a car using that method.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline Tree

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2017, 01:21:26 PM »
What stopped it, run out of tinfoil?

Remember, you have to use 'copious amounts' for it to reach the full rating....



Brian

Or tinfoil.   I nearly torched a car using that method.
Oh, that's easy, just use a coin!   :stirpot:   :yikes:

If the "Burn Through" method was feasible I would give it some thought.  But, no, that's not an option for me.  Nice try.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2017, 02:49:52 PM »
Yeah, it is always fun to post / see that drawing, well at least it is for me- I really like the 'slow- blow' feature of the bolt.  ;D  And it is a valid testing method too; take out the fuse, replace it with one of those replacement items, remove the battery and instead use a DC, constant current welder (stick or TIG power supply, not MIG which is constant voltage, at least the short- arc MIG welders most people can get to), set the machine for 200 or more amps, and turn it on. Wait a bit and something will glow and melt- there is your culprit! If inside of something else, such as a partition wall of a house, it will take longer to find but just as easy: watch carefully exactly where the firefighters are paying the most attention to and sending the water and again, you got the problem!

But back to your situation, I have been chewing on an idea to limit the amount of current going through a circuit so that you can power the system up and keep it powered up while you disconnect different things. The crude but inexpensive and very easy way of doing that is to use a tungsten light bulb, something like an taillight or interior lamp from a car would do. Just put the two legs of the bulb where the fuse would be and the light will turn on and should stay on; then start pulling component blocks off the harness and when you get the right one, the lamp will go out. Simple, cheap and absolutely valid as a testing tool.

I really cannot think of anything 'slick' or clever or anything that will reduce the troubleshooting time and difficultly. You are just going to have to remove things until you find the source of the short, and then further chase it down to the exact cause, such as will be possible. For example, if a wire is shorted going from the ECU, it is going to have to be pinned out and tested, which will be tedious at best. If it appears to be the ECU itself, you really will simply not know for sure unless you swap it out for another and of course that is going to be expensive and a little risky 'cause if it is NOT the ECU and you swap it, you may fry the trial ECU also.

Sorry to bring this as my best idea but I cannot figure out a way around it. ??

Brian

If the "Burn Through" method was feasible I would give it some thought.  But, no, that's not an option for me.  Nice try.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2017, 04:44:51 PM »
If the "Burn Through" method was feasible I would give it some thought.  But, no, that's not an option for me.  Nice try.


Gee willikers, you're no fun at all.. ;)
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Offline Tree

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2017, 06:56:36 PM »
Since the fuses blow when the DFI ECU and KIPASS ECU are plugged in and they don't blow when I disconnect them I figured that the ECU's must be the problem.  I certainly didn't want them to be IT but I have to follow my indications.  I measured the resistances from pins that get battery voltage to ones that connect to ground on each ECU.  This is what I found:

KIPASS ECU (OHMS)
Ground Pin - Battery Pin

5 - 7 = 0.4
5 - 20 = 1000
5 - 24 = 0.4
22 - 7 = 0.4
22 - 20 = 1000
22 - 24 = 0.4

DFI ECU (OHMS)

21 - 35 = 470
21 - 44 = 0.4
22 - 35 = 470
22- 44 = 0.4
52 - 35 = 470
52 - 44 = 0.4

Power connections should not connect directly to ground.  Right?  So, it appears that the electrical distribution went sideways when the battery failed and the ECU's failed as a result?  I can't think of anything else.  If anyone would care to verify my pinouts are correct I would appreciate it.  Also, if anyone is brave enough to check a "spare" ECU to get a benchmark I would like to know those numbers.

It looks like I will be replacing these ECU's.  Crap.

(I just noticed the sticker on the DFI ECU, I had it flashed in MAY.  Steve's flash is gone too.)

Offline maxtog

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2017, 07:51:43 PM »
So, it appears that the electrical distribution went sideways when the battery failed and the ECU's failed as a result?  I can't think of anything else.

It is possible that there are things that go through the ECU bus, once it is connected, that could be the problem and not the ECU, itself.  But you are right that it doesn't look very good, I would probably jump to the same conclusion you did.  I don't have much experience troubleshooting vehicle electronics- it can be really complicated.  But I don't think a battery failure of any type [excluding an explosion] would cause ECU damage, unless the voltage went really high- and that is not typically how any battery is going to fail.  Low voltage typically will not damage most electronics.  Sending too much power through a sensor or data wire- that could do it, however.  And such things point back to the harness and the things connected to it that are also connected to the ECU.  And there are likely quite a few things connected.

Quote
(I just noticed the sticker on the DFI ECU, I had it flashed in MAY.  Steve's flash is gone too.)

If it became necessary, it is possible that Steve might only charge you shipping and perhaps a handling fee to put the flash back on a replacement ECU, since it is more like you already bought a license to use it.  Of course I can't speak for him...  there might be people who would or have tried to scam him claiming such things (not saying you would ever do such a thing).  Likely he would take such matters on a case-by-case basis, so don't assume the worst.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2017, 01:26:48 AM »
Solid state electronics are current- direction sensitive, so must be checked with an Ohmmeter using the Red test lead on the 'in' points and the black test lead on the 'out' points for a valid reading. A diode in the way will yield false readings, So your ECU reading of pins 21 to 44 should be checked the other way, from pin 44 to 21.

And checked that way, no, it should not read 0.4 Ohms. Given a nominal 12 volts, that would allow 30 amps to flow through that circuit, which is far too high.

I assume you are checking the ECU's alone, with NOTHING attached to them, right?

Brian

Since the fuses blow when the DFI ECU and KIPASS ECU are plugged in and they don't blow when I disconnect them I figured that the ECU's must be the problem.  I certainly didn't want them to be IT but I have to follow my indications.  I measured the resistances from pins that get battery voltage to ones that connect to ground on each ECU.  This is what I found:

KIPASS ECU (OHMS)
Ground Pin - Battery Pin

5 - 7 = 0.4
5 - 20 = 1000
5 - 24 = 0.4
22 - 7 = 0.4
22 - 20 = 1000
22 - 24 = 0.4

DFI ECU (OHMS)

21 - 35 = 470
21 - 44 = 0.4
22 - 35 = 470
22- 44 = 0.4
52 - 35 = 470
52 - 44 = 0.4

Power connections should not connect directly to ground.  Right?  So, it appears that the electrical distribution went sideways when the battery failed and the ECU's failed as a result?  I can't think of anything else.  If anyone would care to verify my pinouts are correct I would appreciate it.  Also, if anyone is brave enough to check a "spare" ECU to get a benchmark I would like to know those numbers.

It looks like I will be replacing these ECU's.  Crap.

(I just noticed the sticker on the DFI ECU, I had it flashed in MAY.  Steve's flash is gone too.)
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline gPink

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2017, 04:03:44 AM »
How can you tell the reflash is gone? And if it's gone there would be nothing in it's place so the ecu would be effectively brain dead wouldn't it?

Offline just gone

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2017, 05:33:15 AM »
I assume you are checking the ECU's alone, with NOTHING attached to them, right?
Kind of important, this part.
How can you tell the reflash is gone? And if it's gone there would be nothing in it's place so the ecu would be effectively brain dead wouldn't it?

I think he means, if the ECU is gone (internally teats up) so is the money he spent on a reflash.

If it became necessary, it is possible that Steve might only charge you shipping and perhaps a handling fee to put the flash back on a replacement ECU, since it is more like you already bought a license to use it.

If I recall correctly, in addition to the labor and intellectual property payment, Steve also has to pay some sort of fee to someone else for each flash performed so don't get your hopes up for a postage only reflash. Of course, one of the cheapest ways to check the ECU is to send it in to a reflash facility (Like Steve) and see if it looks normal to them on the equipment? (it must be obvious at this point that I have no idea what's involved with reflashing an ECU).

If (and I'm not saying that's the case just yet) both of the ECUs need replacing (and perhaps associated dealer labor to set up FOBs and TPSM software?) on a 2008 model, it might be $marter to think about parting it out and look for a newer used model.

Best wishes to you Tree, hopefully your inspections will find something obvious to fix and all these speculations will be just mental exercises on all of our parts. Hang in there.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 07:42:34 AM by fartymarty »

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2017, 05:57:30 AM »

If I recall correctly, in addition to the labor and intellectual property payment, Steve also has to pay some sort of fee to someone else for each flash performed so don't get your hopes up for a postage only reflash. Of course, one of the cheapest ways to check the ECU is to send it in to a reflash facility (Like Steve) and see if it looks normal to them on the equipment? (it must be obvious at this point that I have no idea what's involved with reflashing an ECU).



You know, that's a good idea if you're not sure of the status of the ECU (send it to Steve)(Let him know first of all).  He might be able to at least say it's ok or not.
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Offline gPink

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2017, 07:06:36 AM »

I think he means, if the ECU is gone (internally teats up) so is the money he spent on a reflash.

Thanks Marty. Makes more sense that way.  ::)

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2017, 07:19:02 AM »
And how would someone know that by looking at it?
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