Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: wyowanderer on May 14, 2011, 07:44:22 PM

Title: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: wyowanderer on May 14, 2011, 07:44:22 PM
On a recent road trip I found my manual petcock (Bergmen conversion)to fail intermittently.  I proved this by turning it off and on while riding.  At times the carbs were still getting fuel when in the off position.  Other times it worked as intended.  I ordered a rebuild kit thru Murph the other day.  Have others had this occur?

Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: T Cro ® on May 14, 2011, 08:11:10 PM
Have not heard or had this happen as I've had Bergmen's conversion almost since he introduced it 7 or 8 years ago.

How long were you turning it off for while you were riding?
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: Nosmo on May 14, 2011, 11:47:07 PM
I also have had Bergmen's manual conversion for several years and had the petcock leak some time ago.  Dan's kit just repositions the innards and replaces the handle, but does not affect the internal seals.  The problem I had was the O-ring that seals the poppet spindle of the vacuum valve had worn out.  If that O-ring leaks, then you will have fuel seeping through the petcock even when "OFF". I also had a problem with the K&N repair kit, as the poppet valve spindle was too small diameter and so was the O-ring for it.  Instead of sealing the internal orifice, it just let fuel flow past it.  I had a spare new valve assembly and installed that.  Make sure your repair kit has the right sized parts and TEST it for leakage before installing it.
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: wyowanderer on May 15, 2011, 05:05:43 AM
T-Cro...at one point I had it turned to off and rode for 1/2 hour at interstate speeds!  Later in day while still on my trip I would fiddle with it some more and it would work as intended.  Nosmo, I hope my K&L rebuild takes care of the issue.  I was contemplating getting the OEM petcock, but opted for the cheaper of the two solutions. 
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: T Cro ® on May 15, 2011, 08:03:30 AM
Yikes that's a long time... It is leaking by no question there! Good luck with the K&L kit as I've heard lots of disapointing reports on their quality.
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 15, 2011, 11:50:59 AM
I have never been pleased with the K&L petcock diaphragm assembly, and quite frankly it dissapoints me. This is about the only part on the bike I recommend the OEM part (diaphragm only, not the complet petcock) as it seems to be wayyyyyy more reliable. And I've repaired a lot of these valves.
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: wyowanderer on May 20, 2011, 06:41:00 AM
Not what I wanted to hear MOB.  Gonna attempt the rebuild kit today after work.  Any words of advice from other Coggers?  I see on Murph's site he recommends removing any nicks or burrs upon reassembly, stretch spring a bit, clean everything up real good, and not to over tighten anything. 
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: T Cro ® on May 20, 2011, 06:51:22 AM
Not what I wanted to hear MOB.  Gonna attempt the rebuild kit today after work.  Any words of advice from other Coggers?  I see on Murph's site he recommends removing any nicks or burrs upon reassembly, stretch spring a bit, clean everything up real good, and not to over tighten anything.

Use a little grease to lube the parts and o-rings before putting back together........
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: wyowanderer on May 20, 2011, 05:47:19 PM
Well, I have about had it!  Took my time putting the K&L kit in following some detailed well written instructions from a past 2009 Concourier article.  It leaks worse now than it did before!!  I am assuming I put it back together correctly.  If I screwed anything up it was putting the diaphragm in.  But it appears to only go in one way.  Can't say I am real impressed with the diaphragm in the kit.  Seems cheesy.  Maybe this is the problem???  Guess I should have just bit the bullet and got the OEM petcock in the first place.

Title: This forum is dead dead dead
Post by: Uded2me on May 20, 2011, 06:32:11 PM
d e a d
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 20, 2011, 09:36:02 PM
Not what I wanted to hear MOB.  Gonna attempt the rebuild kit today after work.  Any words of advice from other Coggers?  I see on Murph's site he recommends removing any nicks or burrs upon reassembly, stretch spring a bit, clean everything up real good, and not to over tighten anything.
Sorry, but since you ain't paying me, or laying on my couch, I ain't tossing a box of tissues at ya....
I tell it like it is, that's all....everyone's an expert, just depends on the level.
With that said, you CAN make every effort to get the K&L to work, that entails stretching the spring about 1/4", polishing the back side plate on a piece of wet/dry 400 grit paper on a piece of glass, cleaning the surfaces, noting which way the vent on the backplate goes.....installing the diaphragm correctly, and crossing your fingers.

Murph DOES sell the OEM diaphragms also, I am sure he does, he sells Kaw parts... I wouldnot order a whole damned petcock, I have had great luck with the OEM diaphragms. Just saying....

P.S.
I'm gonna have a talk with Gary about those K&L diaphragms again, I have told him a couple times about the issues, I think he'll get all cool and dump them if I tell him nicely how crappy they really are.... OEM is the best, the only OEM part I insist upon on the whole damned bike.
well, clutch friction plates...but that's another story////
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: wyowanderer on May 21, 2011, 05:17:28 AM
Well if anyone is going to install things incorrectly it would be me, so I am not ruling that out by any means.  MOB, I did use the fine sandpaper on the mating surfaces and stretched my spring a bit as well.  Take a look at my photos I attached.  I hope someone out there tells me I installed it wrong! 

1st photo:  Does plastic disk go down first with it oriented like I have it?  Is the weephole in the right location on plastic disc?  Does diaphragm get placed into plastic disc like I am doing?

 2nd photo:  Does spring get placed on diaphragm like I am doing and then outer cover ontop of spring?
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: Mettler1 on May 21, 2011, 06:56:34 AM

   Judging from the pics this man is not a gearhead. No dirty,greasy fingers and manicured nails??? ;D ;D
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: Nosmo on May 21, 2011, 01:00:36 PM
wyowanderer:

When mine leaked after installing the K&L kit, it was due to an undersized poppet valve and O-ring.  That's the part I have circled in yellow in your picture (copy attached below).  That O-ring must fit the center spindle tightly, and also must tightly seal against the central hole in the valve body.  Check the new unit against the old OEM assembly that you took out.  The diameters must be the same, and the O-ring cross-section must be the same.  Even a few thousandths of an inch can cause problems because the fuel is so thin it doesn't take much to let it past.  If that aluminum spindle or O-ring are not correct, then fuel will seep past it and leak out the outlet pipe all the time regardless of the petcock valve position, whether vacuum is applied or not.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 21, 2011, 01:06:06 PM
DID YOU DISASSEMBLE THE DIAPHRAGM YOU GOT THAT WAS NEW?????

IT SHOULD DROP IN THERE......
THAT DOES NOT LOOK RIGHT...... ???
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: wyowanderer on May 21, 2011, 01:29:36 PM
MOB, Yes I did.  Even took photos...but the majority of photos were too blurry to see, hence this thread. Mechanics are not my strong point, but I do what I can.   I looked at a microfiche as well, but just got plain confused.  I am used to looking at past threads and using the search function to help me out, but with the site crashing and all...

Nosmo, I think you may be onto something.  It appears that poppet valve you circled IS smaller than the OEM one.  I suppose I would need a micrometer to verify this though.  But I am not banking on this yet.  I want to make sure I have installed the diaphragm correctly first. 

Thanks.
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 21, 2011, 01:30:27 PM
DID YOU DISASSEMBLE THE DIAPHRAGM YOU GOT THAT WAS NEW?????

IT SHOULD DROP IN THERE......
THAT DOES NOT LOOK RIGHT...... ???

there are 2 diaphragms  attached to the poppet, one on either side of the plastic frame.....

I have no idea what you tried to do here....it needs both in tact, if you ripped one outta there it will never work, and it ruins the assembly.

the kaw assembly comes correctly with a new plastic frame in place....look closely, one diaphragm layer goes on either side of the frame, and the groove in the frame goes against the poppet side as the photo showed.
it will never work any other way, the rubber seals against each metal mating surface, thus the reason it's said to clean/true them and de-burr them.

Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 21, 2011, 01:56:24 PM
(http://inlinethumb03.webshots.com/8514/2404759220015463693S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2404759220015463693uDIfwr)

(http://inlinethumb50.webshots.com/46321/2757137690015463693S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2757137690015463693gRwRpC)

like this.....


Nice try Nosmo.... but you looked right past the obvious....

 ;)
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 21, 2011, 02:11:58 PM
saving further time, I know you are gonna ask this also....
the back plate gets installed with the hose spigot alligned with the fuel spigot...both on the same side...... the weep hole inthe diaphragm plastic frame faces downwards, the plastic pins and holes in the rubbers, all allign this correctly, mind them meticulously.

carry on.
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: wyowanderer on May 21, 2011, 03:03:18 PM
Holy Cow!!!, Now I am thoroughly confused and miffed.  I DID NOT dismantle the diaphragm that was new.  (Nor the old one..the diaphragm that I took out was not sandwiched between the plastic frame).  The K&L kit does not come with that plastic frame so I am assuming I have to dismantle the new diaphragm to put it on the existing frame?  Can this even be done?  It looks to be a pressed item. 
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: Nosmo on May 21, 2011, 03:13:49 PM
"Nice try Nosmo.... but you looked right past the obvious...."

Son of a B#tch!!!!.  You're right, MOB.  I posted without my morning coffee.  I thought about this just now while riding the Zook to the liquor..... uuhhh, grocery store and came back on-line to mention it, but you beat me to it.  That's why you guys are the experts and I'm just a dood with a bike.

Here's how it should look:

Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: Nosmo on May 21, 2011, 03:22:35 PM
Holy Cow!!!, Now I am thoroughly confused and miffed.  I DID NOT dismantle the diaphragm that was new.  (Nor the old one..the diaphragm that I took out was not sandwiched between the plastic frame).  The K&L kit does not come with that plastic frame so I am assuming I have to dismantle the new diaphragm to put it on the existing frame?  Can this even be done?  It looks to be a pressed item.

No, there is no way to dismantle the diaphragm itself, all pressed together.  The diaphragm has two rubber panels to it.  Gently pull them apart and Just flex the rubber panel of the diaphragm on the spindle side and fold it around the spindle and push it through the hole in the plastic spacer, careful not to tear it.   The side of the diaphragm with the aluminum disc has to go on the side of the plastic spacer with the circular counterbore.
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 21, 2011, 03:33:28 PM
Holy Cow!!!, Now I am thoroughly confused and miffed.  I DID NOT dismantle the diaphragm that was new.  (Nor the old one..the diaphragm that I took out was not sandwiched between the plastic frame).  The K&L kit does not come with that plastic frame so I am assuming I have to dismantle the new diaphragm to put it on the existing frame?  Can this even be done?  It looks to be a pressed item.


come on man....you are kidding me are'nt you???

you don't disassemble anything, just stick the plastic frame between the 2 rubber sheets, with one sheet on either side like the picture....the rubber is flexible you realize?

make sure the poppet is on the side with the vent/weep groove in the plastic frame.

this ain't a lunar mission. or is it?


glad you got 'groceries" Nosmo....Zombie time approaching fast....2 hours and counting.....
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: wyowanderer on May 21, 2011, 03:37:11 PM
No, there is no way to dismantle the diaphragm itself, all pressed together.  The diaphragm has two rubber panels to it.  Gently pull them apart and Just flex the rubber panel of the diaphragm on the spindle side and fold it around the spindle and push it through the hole in the plastic spacer, careful not to tear it.   The side of the diaphragm with the aluminum disc has to go on the side of the plastic spacer with the circular counterbore.

Nosmo.  Thanks!!!!!!!! Between this last post and MOB's posts I finally know what needs to be done with that diaphragm.  I knew it would be one of those moments where I felt absolutely stupid and I was right (and it appears MOB thinks I am a complete idiot...really I am not.  Just having a "moment" you could say).  So now that I have the diaphragm installed correctly on the plastic plate I can see if it will work now.  I told you I wasn't mechanically inclined!!!!!!!!!!  Thanks for bearing with me on this one.   ;D

Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 21, 2011, 04:06:19 PM
no I don't think you are an idiot, just a bit confused....not a problem, that's why I went out to the barn, shot pictures, and posted them for you....
understandingly as the end of the world is just an hour and a half away....I hope you get 'er done in time to ride....
 ;)
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: Nosmo on May 21, 2011, 04:42:06 PM
no I don't think you are an idiot, just a bit confused....not a problem, that's why I went out to the barn, shot pictures, and posted them for you....
understandingly as the end of the world is just an hour and a half away....I hope you get 'er done in time to ride....
 ;)

Well, then I won't bother changing my oil................... :P
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 21, 2011, 05:13:33 PM
 :chugbeer: :popcorn: :stirpot: :yikes: :popcorn: :rotflmao:

awaiting the rapture...drinking a Wilco-Tango-Foxtrot.....
I have a feeling it will be a nice Zombie free day tomorrow.
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: throb on May 21, 2011, 05:39:28 PM
Just the same, I have several zombie intervention tools waiting.  Bats; firearms of differing uses; toilet plungers, dirty underwear to throw, etc.....

Oh but wait, this was about a leaking petcock wasn't it?  Why not just replace the thing with an OEM and send the carb bowls to SISF for overflow tubes?  Anything you are trying to accomplish will be done by this.
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: wyowanderer on May 21, 2011, 05:49:28 PM


 Why not just replace the thing with an OEM and send the carb bowls to SISF for overflow tubes?  Anything you are trying to accomplish will be done by this.
[/quote]

Just ordered a new petcock from Murph.   After all, I got her put back together and she still leaks.  I am tired of messing with the darn thing.  Wasted too much time as it is.  My riding season here is too short as it is.  And overflow tubes are on my list this winter.  Here that SISF. 
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 21, 2011, 06:55:06 PM

 Why not just replace the thing with an OEM and send the carb bowls to SISF for overflow tubes?  Anything you are trying to accomplish will be done by this.


Just ordered a new petcock from Murph.   After all, I got her put back together and she still leaks.  I am tired of messing with the darn thing.  Wasted too much time as it is.  My riding season here is too short as it is.  And overflow tubes are on my list this winter.  Here that SISF.

whatever.
http://www.ronayers.com/Search/N/687 (http://www.ronayers.com/Search/N/687)
Ronayers Kaw parts...add shipping, but...
 DIAPHRAGM ASSY,TAP
Mfg. Part Number: 43028-1015
SKU: 594480
 MSRP: $12.74
Your Price: $8.79 

pretty big "why" answer in my book.

I firmly support Murph, and his products, but as I say, I prefer the OEM repair kit.
I't drop in and go.
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 21, 2011, 07:07:32 PM
4 more wasted hours of my life.
 :banghead: :deadhorse: :thumbs:
Title: Re: Intermittent Leaky Petcock?
Post by: Bmcush on May 22, 2011, 01:48:00 PM
Quote
43028-1015

Your local dealer may have the part in stock, thats how I came across one with out having to wait 4 days....