Author Topic: We're doomed  (Read 15788 times)

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8869
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2016, 03:29:39 PM »
I thought the way Heinlein postulated in his book "Starship Troopers" was interesting..

There were 2 levels of citizenship - One by birth, and a higher level you earned by military or Govt service - the higher level entitled you to vote, and hold government office, among other things..

That meant, he said, that the people who determined who that gov't was, were the same people who understood what the government did and didn't do, and knew the value of "good" government...

Neat premise, but it'd never fly.

Nope.  Kinda like I wish people that were on aid and not paying taxes shouldn't be able to vote during those periods- it is a conflict of interest to be able to just vote in whatever will keep paying for you to take everyone else's money!   Of course, that kind of stuff could be abused (and has been in the past).
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5686
  • Country: cn
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2016, 03:57:11 PM »
Nope.  Kinda like I wish people that were on aid and not paying taxes shouldn't be able to vote during those periods- it is a conflict of interest to be able to just vote in whatever will keep paying for you to take everyone else's money!   Of course, that kind of stuff could be abused (and has been in the past).

Sounds like government employees unions.  ::)

Offline sanmo

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
  • Country: us
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2016, 07:47:31 PM »
Don't worry It's just the Trump effect

You can say anything, do anything , demean everyone , it's OK :)

It's the new normal.

The events cited by the OP could just be the last hurrah for mayhem before the "law & order" Prez gets inaugurated on 1/20. The next 4 - 8 years could be interesting sociological times.  :banana
2008 Silverdammit C14

Offline Conrad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5822
  • Country: us
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2016, 05:44:30 AM »
I thought the way Heinlein postulated in his book "Starship Troopers" was interesting..

There were 2 levels of citizenship - One by birth, and a higher level you earned by military or Govt service - the higher level entitled you to vote, and hold government office, among other things..

That meant, he said, that the people who determined who that gov't was, were the same people who understood what the government did and didn't do, and knew the value of "good" government...

Neat premise, but it'd never fly.

Jamie

It's that part about privilege by birth that won't fly. We've got enough of that already.

I didn't read the book but what I got from Jamie's post was that there were ONLY two levels. One, the lower level, was at birth. The second and higher level was only reachable by government or military service.

I like this idea a lot.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 08:14:01 AM by Conrad »
Northern Illinois   Silverdammit '08 C-14 ABS

"Don't bother me with facts, Son. I've already made up my mind." -Foghorn Leghorn

Offline gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5686
  • Country: cn
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2016, 05:55:23 AM »
I might be misunderstanding....been known to happen.  ::)

Offline just gone

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1655
  • Country: us
  • COG#9712 '10 ABS
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2016, 11:23:12 AM »
Sounds like government employees unions.  ::)

As a proud former member, I would like to point out that they serve a useful purpose for the public as well as the members. Since there is no bottom line for management to worry about in Government, they come up with lots of screwy ideas, most of them costly. Surprisingly many would show up about a year after they were made fun of in Dilbert. We would often joke about Dilbert being management's primer. The public (and congress) rarely see this stuff if the unions don't bring it to light. Yes there is some protectionism in the unions ranks, but when there is no bottom line to worry about, management tends to think less about who are the most productive employees, and more about the ones that cause the least amount of problems for themselves. If you think government is unproductive now, you would be shocked at how little would get done without unions. I never once saw a management idea for a proficiency program, it was always the union that wanted one. Management was only interested in proficiency after an employee screwed something up so they could say they took action (with that one employee) then once that box is checked they turn right back to minimizing their own work load instead of coming up with a plan to prevent future screw ups.
OK, I've vented now.

Offline Cholla

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 363
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2016, 09:44:50 AM »
I fid it odd that unions by and large embrace government yet government hasthe most unionized employees.
If hovt is so loved why do they need unions? For that matter why do union employees have a union?
Beware the Black Widows...Feared throughout the land!

Offline wally_games

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 713
  • Country: us
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2017, 11:26:54 AM »
I prefer two years military or government service after primary schooling. Some people just can't handle military discipline.
We need some way to re-instill patriotism in our young-ins.
I also like 16 years of (free) public education, with the following two years of government service. Anyone who drops out of school still must serve the remainder of the 16 year time plus the two years in military/government service. This would be an incentive to stay in school.

Bob Skinner

I'm sorry, Bob, but there is no such thing as "FREE" public education. I think asking the taxpayers (I definitely am one) to pay for 12 years of that is plenty, especially since there are many that won't benefit from any more "learning" anyway. To me, college is for those that want to actually take on an occupation that needs/requires the additional education. We don't need to be sending kids to college just to get a degree in something that isn't marketable. We have too many philosophy, general studies, art history, etc. students out there already that can't use their degree to get a paying job.

I do like the "if you drop out, just add those years to your other service" part of that. Just make that after 13 years (K-12).

Ok, ready to accept stones being tossed at me.
'14 BMW 1200 GSw (red, what little there is that's not grey)
'11 Concours ABS (black) w/ Leo Vince carbon, heated Corbin, Garmin; TechSpec pads (gone but not forgotten)
'05 Yamaha FZ6, only crashed once, gone in trade; '87 Honda Gold Wing Aspencade, sold; '85 Honda Magna (700), sold; '76 Kawasaki KZ400, sold

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8869
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2017, 12:01:28 PM »
[...]Ok, ready to accept stones being tossed at me.

I won't be one of them.  Nothing is free, and not everyone can benefit from higher education any more than everyone could benefit from military service.  There is no magic regimen that will work for creating decent people and citizens out of everyone.  The human condition is so much more complicated.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline Rhino

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3963
  • Country: us
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2017, 01:06:53 PM »
I'm sorry, Bob, but there is no such thing as "FREE" public education. I think asking the taxpayers (I definitely am one) to pay for 12 years of that is plenty, especially since there are many that won't benefit from any more "learning" anyway. To me, college is for those that want to actually take on an occupation that needs/requires the additional education. We don't need to be sending kids to college just to get a degree in something that isn't marketable. We have too many philosophy, general studies, art history, etc. students out there already that can't use their degree to get a paying job.

I do like the "if you drop out, just add those years to your other service" part of that. Just make that after 13 years (K-12).

Ok, ready to accept stones being tossed at me.

No stones being tossed here either. I agree completely.

Offline Bob Skinner

  • Arena
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 30
  • Country: us
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2017, 05:00:32 PM »
If you want our kids to compete in the world of open trading then you better find a way to get them some more education. We're ranked in the lower one half worldwide towards educating our young.
For the kids who don't want 16 years of education, they can drop out just like they're doing today. But with this plan they have some "government payback" time.
I don't want the US to fall any closer towards being a third-world country.

Offline gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5686
  • Country: cn
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2017, 05:12:22 PM »
The fedgov education system has worked exactly as planned.

Online turbojoe78

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
  • Country: us
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2017, 05:18:35 AM »
Quote from: wally_games on Yesterday at 01:26:54 pm

    I'm sorry, Bob, but there is no such thing as "FREE" public education. I think asking the taxpayers (I definitely am one) to pay for 12 years of that is plenty, especially since there are many that won't benefit from any more "learning" anyway. To me, college is for those that want to actually take on an occupation that needs/requires the additional education. We don't need to be sending kids to college just to get a degree in something that isn't marketable. We have too many philosophy, general studies, art history, etc. students out there already that can't use their degree to get a paying job.

    I do like the "if you drop out, just add those years to your other service" part of that. Just make that after 13 years (K-12).

    Ok, ready to accept stones being tossed at me.

No stones being tossed here either. I agree completely.

+2
2014 ZG1400 Concours COG memb# 8645


Offline BruceR

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 237
  • Country: us
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2017, 06:18:14 AM »
My thoughts are that too many embrace the 'need a college degree' mentality.  No one knows how to do things anymore.  I'd rather we focus more on trade schools and teach young people something useful than give them useless degrees.  We're approaching a point where a degree means nothing anymore.

Offline gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5686
  • Country: cn
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2017, 06:20:47 AM »
....but....but....that would mean fewer snowflakes. Whatever would we do?

Offline Classvino

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
  • Country: ca
  • Longtime Kawi Rider
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2017, 09:33:41 AM »
...especially since there are many that won't benefit from any more "learning" anyway. To me, college is for those that want to actually take on an occupation that needs/requires the additional education. We don't need to be sending kids to college just to get a degree in something that isn't marketable. We have too many philosophy, general studies, art history, etc. students out there already that can't use their degree to get a paying job...

At the risk of sounding almost "1984ish", why not make only the "useful" education tracks free - and have the students need to maintain a certain level of competence to avoid having to repay their tuition costs (whether in $ or in time spent in service)...  No more degrees that are only useful to propagating that particular subject...   For example - I know someone who received a doctorate in Medieval English. They are now a tenured professor teaching Medieval English.  I wouldn't go so far as to state that that particular subject is totally useless, but the argument could be made that it really doesn't benefit society at large very much... And there are a whole whack of subjects to which the exact same paradigm could be applied.

I do like the "if you drop out, just add those years to your other service" part of that. Just make that after 13 years (K-12).

I like this idea, but would add "higher education" (i.e. university, college or trade school) with the caveat that the education would have to be deemed beneficial by some more measurable process...

I turned down a music scholarship, not because I didn't like the subject...  I just couldn't see how I'd be able to support myself (and a family) with that as a career...   Obviously any successful rock star would disagree...

And while we're fixing the world  ???, make receiving welfare (and I don't mean to make that sound uniformly derogatory - some people have actually earned it...)  a little less acceptable.  In the neighbourhood I grew up in, there were many 3rd or 4th generation "welfare families" that had absolutely no real incentive to get out of the program. My family worked hard to not be 'on the dole', and sometimes made do with less than the families on the program were receiving.  It's hard to make someone want to work when it's given to them for free.

Way back when.., I was a full-time student with a full-time night job - worked 8hrs, went to school for 6hrs, and slept and did homework the other 10hrs. My marks might have been better if I didn't have to work, but that's how I afforded tuition.
It really ticked me off when I followed somebody that I knew had never held a job, or gone to school, through the supermarket with pasta and bread and other minimum staples in my cart, while they had cheese, steak and snack food in theirs...  All the foods I only saw on trips home for holiday dinners...

Sigh, and now my kids ask for Kraft dinner (that's boxed mac and cheese for my American friends.)...

+1

Jamie
2013 C14 - First "new" bike
1983 CB1100F, 1977 GS850, 1974 KH750 H2, 1974 KH500 H1, 1975 KH400 S3, 1979 RD 400 Daytona......

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8869
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2017, 03:16:09 PM »
And while we're fixing the world  ???, make receiving welfare (and I don't mean to make that sound uniformly derogatory - some people have actually earned it...)  a little less acceptable.

And that won't happen until it becomes a little less acceptable for unwed "children" having children.  Because currently you can't punish/correct the parent(s) without it punishing the children.  The "solutions" are harsh and will never be acceptable- such as saying "sure, you can have welfare, but only if you get forced birth control and we take away the children you already have."
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5686
  • Country: cn
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2017, 03:40:40 PM »
Maybe have to work for it? 

Silly me.... work for welfare?

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8869
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2017, 03:58:36 PM »
Maybe have to work for it? 

Silly me.... work for welfare?

Same problem.  So they don't work and then what- you can't turn off the money because it will hurt "save the children."  They really are a key complicating factor...  Not the only one, but the most important for sure.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline Nosmo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 254
  • Country: us
  • "We're all in this together." - Red Green
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2017, 07:52:22 PM »
And that won't happen until it becomes a little less acceptable for unwed "children" having children.  Because currently you can't punish/correct the parent(s) without it punishing the children.  The "solutions" are harsh and will never be acceptable- such as saying "sure, you can have welfare, but only if you get forced birth control and we take away the children you already have."

Here's your statistics on births to unwed mothers.  40% .  Draw your own conclusions.

http://www.childtrends.org/indicators/births-to-unmarried-women/#
A life undreamed is a waste.  A dream unlived is a sin.