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Mish mash => Open Forum => Topic started by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 21, 2012, 09:53:01 AM

Title: NRA press Conference
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 21, 2012, 09:53:01 AM
http://home.nra.org/#/nraorg (http://home.nra.org/#/nraorg)

 Finally, saying what needs to be said. Interestingly, their plan is as we discussed in the "I will not run away" thread. The "Watchdog Dads" program was cited.

  Upon watching it, I donated 100.00.

  Let me say this. My daughter is still in high school for another 2.5 years. We go in the evenings to her soccer games. There is no security there. I can't bring any. The laws have fully removed our ability to defend ourselves or others. If I choose to violate the law (I don't) then I WILL be looked at as a "gun toting criminal on school property". It's time for America to wake up. Watch the press conference, I am 100% in agreement., and ready to be a "Watchdog Dad". Steve
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Toxz Qwaste on December 21, 2012, 10:30:53 AM
Just read it and found it well stated. He certainly called the "cuture" out on it's BS. Unfortunately I don't believe that it will convince any of those who need to be covinced. Their minds don't work that way. This is, and will always be an uphill battle.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: midnightrider on December 21, 2012, 02:32:50 PM
I also found it well thought out and reasonable. I don' see how the liberal gun grabbers can not support this without looking like callous uncaring zealots. But I'm sure they will find a way. Because that's diiiiiiiifferent. :)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Awaz on December 21, 2012, 05:18:19 PM
Well...I do not mind them defending what they stand for, but I call BS on this statement:

And here's another dirty little truth that the media try their best to
conceal: There exists in this country a callous, corrupt and corrupting
shadow industry that sells, and sows, violence against its own people.
Through vicious, violent video games with names like Bulletstorm,
Grand Theft Auto, Mortal Kombat and Splatterhouse. And here’s one:
it’s called Kindergarten Killers. It’s been online for 10 years. How come
my research department could find it and all of yours either couldn’t or
didn’t want anyone to know you had found it?

Those games sell in millions. If they were so bad, we should have seen at least hundred more psychos shooting schools. This is as bad a blame as people blaming guns for violence.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 21, 2012, 05:35:25 PM
Awaz - personally, I understand their point. It's not that the AVERAGE person can't separate fact from fantasy; it's the one loner who spends all his time gaming and avoiding the real world. I know a bit about that; I've seen it in a teenager I know very well.

And think of it this way. let's say you have a person with personality disorder / mental illness who has spent years "killing" while gaming. Now his mental illness gets worse as he gets a bit older. Maybe he starts thinking that the kids in the local school are alien spawn, and god told him to kill them before they wipe out the world. In his mind he has been preparing for this for years, and he has to carry out his plan, it's the only way to save the universe. And so it starts.

Don't laugh about this - 2 years ago a guy armed with a knife entered a dayschool about 2 miles from me with intent to kill all the children, because god told him to.  Here ya go - and after this article they bumped his bail to 100,000.00 http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/man-accused-of-bringing-weapon-into-pasco-day-care/1106376 (http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/man-accused-of-bringing-weapon-into-pasco-day-care/1106376)

We also just had a local kid get convicted last week for his plan to blow up and shoot up his school. Manifesto and everything.

  It's hard to get inside someone's head who is deranged. I dealt with it while working in the DOC also. don't try to understand an insane person by your sane standards, it doesn't work. Steve

Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 21, 2012, 05:42:15 PM
Here - y'all NEED TO WATCH THIS  http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/police-release-video-wouldbe-columbine-copycat-article-1.1204626 (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/police-release-video-wouldbe-columbine-copycat-article-1.1204626)

watch The sicko's own video. See how his plan is well laid out. He's 17. where did he learn this stuff? video games maybe? Steve
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Pokey on December 21, 2012, 06:24:30 PM
Powerful, must watch.


Suzanna Gratia Hupp explains meaning of 2nd Amendment! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis#)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: ssmith on December 21, 2012, 06:56:40 PM
another interesting read...

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2012-12-19.html (http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2012-12-19.html)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Rick Hall on December 21, 2012, 07:31:29 PM
Attitudes...

We hear straight pipes on a regular basis.
We see 'puddin' bowls on a regular basis.
We see blue jeans and flip flops on a regular basis.

There is nothing inherently wrong with any of them in a free society.

Changing peoples attitudes, and/or education, as to what is acceptable and 'correct' is far easier than banning straight pipes, flip flops, or puddin bowls.... or a .44 magnum.

Laws don't change crap, acceptable behavior (read: peer pressure, if you like) does.

Rick
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Snibbor on December 21, 2012, 10:12:34 PM
Powerful, must watch.


Suzanna Gratia Hupp explains meaning of 2nd Amendment! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis#)

Gee, think we'll see this clip played on NBC/ABC/CBS anytime soon.....
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Pokey on December 21, 2012, 11:01:26 PM
another interesting read...

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2012-12-19.html (http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2012-12-19.html)


That won't be discussed on CNN/NBC/ABC or CBS either.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: jamiemac on December 22, 2012, 01:41:48 AM
I've always thought the NRA was not remotely aggressive enough. The money Members pay should be used to keep Washington's gun grabbers busy defending against a constant barrage of the airing of their dirty laundry. All those child molesting, bad check writing, wife beating, worthless scumbags should never be able to stick their head out , without seeing flashbulbs going off.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Outback_Jon on December 22, 2012, 06:50:06 AM
I've always thought the NRA was not remotely aggressive enough. The money Members pay should be used to keep Washington's gun grabbers busy defending against a constant barrage of the airing of their dirty laundry. All those child molesting, bad check writing, wife beating, worthless scumbags should never be able to stick their head out , without seeing flashbulbs going off.
That kind of stuff would merely make the NRA a characture.  I think they do a darn good job where it really matters, supporting education, legislation, and court cases.  (Heller v. DC, Shepard v. Madigan (Illinois))
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: twowheeladdict on December 22, 2012, 07:05:15 AM
I go to gun free zones every day for work.  Those zones are protected by professionals with guns.  Every government building has some form of armed security. 

So, if you go to a school function, only law breakers will be carrying guns?


I also agree with the violent video games and folks with diminished mental capacity.

I know personally that the car racing video games had me going into the curves on public streets with a little more confidence.
I also tried one of those sniper games and when I started dreaming about the scenerios in the game I knew I had to stop.

There are good citizens who carry a firearm for protection, there are those who carry a firearm to feel brave, and there are those who carry a firearm to feel superior. 

Personally, if I wouldn't go somewhere without a firearm, I don't want to go there with a firearm. 
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Locol on December 23, 2012, 12:41:11 PM
Here is a thought. There are approximately 130,000 schools in the US. It would cost approximately $6.5-$6.8B/yr. to put armed guards in the schools. Grover Norquist is a NRA board member. Do you think Grover (or most NRA members) would support a tax increase to pay for the armed guards?
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: gPink on December 23, 2012, 01:59:06 PM
Train existing personnel.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Son of Pappy on December 23, 2012, 02:07:00 PM
Here is a thought. There are approximately 130,000 schools in the US. It would cost approximately $6.5-$6.8B/yr. to put armed guards in the schools. Grover Norquist is a NRA board member. Do you think Grover (or most NRA members) would support a tax increase to pay for the armed guards?
I would not support a federal tax, but I would vote yes for a state sponsored levy if the levy was %100 for the purpose of providing for an on site armed response at each and every school.  The fedgov is not equipped to handle each states needs and it never will be.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: CIG4R on December 23, 2012, 02:59:49 PM
Here is a thought. There are approximately 130,000 schools in the US. It would cost approximately $6.5-$6.8B/yr. to put armed guards in the schools. Grover Norquist is a NRA board member. Do you think Grover (or most NRA members) would support a tax increase to pay for the armed guards?

ACLU dues coming up again?
A decided is better decided locally by each state, school district or even better each school
not a broad federal move that could put the TSA equivalent guarding schools, but a parent / community member that has been vetted out sounds pretty reasonable. 
No federal funds - novel idea, implementation or not could be one school board meeting away.

Why should a community response be dictated by a remote group who has armed guards protecting their work place everyday?
 
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Ron Dawg on December 23, 2012, 05:00:41 PM
Why not have a Sheriff's auxillary unit and required training? Some departments around here have them already.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 23, 2012, 07:22:20 PM
Why not have a Sheriff's auxillary unit and required training? Some departments around here have them already.

  That's basically what the NRA is proposing. The problem with allowing this on a local level is that there's a federal firearms law that prohibits firearms from being within 1000 ft of a school. The fact is that if you drive your car on the road the school is located, you have just violated federal law. I think that this issue is such a hot-button topic, the only fair way is for the local people to decide what works for them. Regardless, TRAINING TRAINING TRAINING. Steve
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Bart on December 23, 2012, 07:30:54 PM
Good guys with guns stop bad guys with guns. The answer is more guns (but only for "good" guys)!

Bad things happen in all 1st world countries, but why is it only in the USA that mass shootings happen so often that they are not rare? Has American society gone bad? Or could it be that of all the first world countries only the USA has so many guns?

Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: timsatx on December 23, 2012, 08:10:21 PM
  That's basically what the NRA is proposing. The problem with allowing this on a local level is that there's a federal firearms law that prohibits firearms from being within 1000 ft of a school. The fact is that if you drive your car on the road the school is located, you have just violated federal law. I think that this issue is such a hot-button topic, the only fair way is for the local people to decide what works for them. Regardless, TRAINING TRAINING TRAINING. Steve

You must be talking about Florida, and as far as I know it isn't a federal law. Here in Texas we can go on to school property carrying our concealed weapon (with a CHL), we just can't go into the school.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Snibbor on December 23, 2012, 08:20:41 PM
from wikipedia

Political scientist Earl R. Kruschke states, regarding the fully automatic firearms owned by private citizens in the United States, that "approximately 175,000 automatic firearms have been licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (the federal agency responsible for administration of the law) and evidence suggests that none of these weapons has ever been used to commit a violent crime. With the exception of two, which were used by law enforcement officers."[125]

Yes, this isn't a subject of the current controversy, but telling none the less.  How on earth do those evil machine guns not jump out of their safes a slaughter thousands.

Oh, I see there has been a White House petition to deport Piers Morgan LOL  ;D
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 23, 2012, 09:36:02 PM
You must be talking about Florida, and as far as I know it isn't a federal law. Here in Texas we can go on to school property carrying our concealed weapon (with a CHL), we just can't go into the school.

 Federal; Gun free School Zones Act, 18usc922 (q)  - it's a federal crime with up to 5 years imprisonment to possess a firearm in a school zone with the following exceptions. The school zone includes 1000 ft to the school. the following are exceptions

1) you have a concealed permit

2)the gun is uloaded, in a locked container or locked in a firearm rack

3) You're on private property , not part of the school

4) It's for use in a school program, but not nessessarily at the school

5) you're a security guarge with a contract to work at the school

6)you're acting LE

7) the gun is unloaded, and you're traversing the property to get access to legal hunting land, and have written permission from the school.

Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 23, 2012, 09:50:35 PM
Good guys with guns stop bad guys with guns. The answer is more guns (but only for "good" guys)!

Bad things happen in all 1st world countries, but why is it only in the USA that mass shootings happen so often that they are not rare? Has American society gone bad? Or could it be that of all the first world countries only the USA has so many guns?

 Seeing as how this is your first post, i figure you're trolling, but I'll play along for a little bit... I'm not going to go into all the massive amount of facts, I answer with some of my own (maybe / probably wrong) observations. I think there's a lot of factors, and yes, I think the gun is well entrenched into the fabric of american culture. why not, our forefathers used it to great effect to secure out freedom. We are a new nation, relatively speaking. And yes, we have alot ogf guns. So many, in fact, that you can never get them all from the american people. and then there's at niggly little second amendment thingy.

  but let me say this - and hold me to it - man will always find a way to adapt and overcome. IF you could take all the guns magically from america, I am sure some whackjob will take an SUV, crash a gate and run over  bunch of kids hopping off buses at school If the voices in his head tell him to. So then we'll need more laws, and let's take your SUV away...even though the worst thing you ever did with your SUV was transport your kids to chuckey cheese with it... Steve
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: sherob on December 23, 2012, 10:05:34 PM
Bart only posts non MC related posts... hence no post count. 
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Bart on December 23, 2012, 10:50:19 PM
Rob, Bart only joined today.

Steve, if you really believe that if you took all the guns away from America that "some whackjob will take an SUV, crash a gate and run over  bunch of kids hopping off buses at school" then how do you explain that this SUV or other kind of carnage not happen in the rest of the 1st world on a regular basis like gun violence does in America? I hope you don't think that we are fundamentally a "bad" nation compared to the rest of the 1st world.

Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 24, 2012, 05:54:52 AM
who says it doesn't happen in other nations? Do some research on violent incidence in other nations. Not just gun violence, but bombings, knife attacks, clubbings, etc. Look at it per capita so the #'s aren't skewed. Come back with your findings and let us know what YOUR answer is to protect our kids NOW.

 And BTW, I have some personal experience with the criminally insane, having worked for the florida DOC. I've dealt  with scitozophrenics, (sp?) psychopaths, sociopaths, and I've seen psychotic breaks. It's scary. If you want to try to understand them you need to go to a whole 'nuther level in your mind.  The surreal becomes real. Up becomes down, black becomes light. Little kids become alien spawn, and the world needs to be protected from them. Now let's see you fix that with laws...Steve
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: T Cro ® on December 24, 2012, 06:32:44 AM
who says it doesn't happen in other nations? Do some research on violent incidence in other nations. Not just gun violence, but bombings, knife attacks, clubbings, etc. Look at it per capita so the #'s aren't skewed. Come back with your findings and let us know what YOUR answer is to protect our kids NOW.

Same time frame of the shooting there was what 22 kids cut by a knife wielding whack in China..... Not long ago in Sweden (?) there was a massive shooting at a summer camp. How about the incident in Russia where they took over the entire school?

We are far from being alone in having whacks killing children and adults alike in this world..... And keep in mind that when determined twisted minds want carnage they will have it.... After all it was nothing more than "box cutters" that  brought down the Twin Towers.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: twowheeladdict on December 24, 2012, 06:53:23 AM
Rob, Bart only joined today.

Steve, if you really believe that if you took all the guns away from America that "some whackjob will take an SUV, crash a gate and run over  bunch of kids hopping off buses at school" then how do you explain that this SUV or other kind of carnage not happen in the rest of the 1st world on a regular basis like gun violence does in America? I hope you don't think that we are fundamentally a "bad" nation compared to the rest of the 1st world.

Yes Bart.  We in America have too much free time, too many idle people, too many people on government assistance who now can spend their time thinking up these schemes while playing their video games.  The US society is going downhill.  We have become an land of entitlements, a land where we hold acters in more reverence than those who cure cancer, or keep us safe.

Maybe this is why you don't see school shootings in other 1st world countries.
http://www.standeyo.com/NEWS/12_Pics_of_Day/121214.pic.of.day.c.html (http://www.standeyo.com/NEWS/12_Pics_of_Day/121214.pic.of.day.c.html)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: sherob on December 24, 2012, 08:21:24 AM
Bart sure seems to be just like old Bart... who seems to post same positions as old Bart.... hmmmmmm.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: T Cro ® on December 24, 2012, 08:35:29 AM
Bart sure seems to be just like old Bart... who seems to post same positions as old Bart.... hmmmmmm.

Do you perhaps mean Bert? Nope Bert and Bart are two completely different indivuals.... Lets not yet lambaste Bart...
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: sherob on December 24, 2012, 08:36:07 AM
My bad... not enough coffee.  ;D

My apologies Bart.  ;)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: gPink on December 24, 2012, 08:37:01 AM
You mean 'Bert'? Nah, Bart is nowhere near the level of vitriol and hate as 'Bert'.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Strawboss on December 24, 2012, 08:43:53 AM
Stop feeding the troll.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Rhino on December 24, 2012, 08:59:29 AM
Good guys with guns stop bad guys with guns. The answer is more guns (but only for "good" guys)!

Bad things happen in all 1st world countries, but why is it only in the USA that mass shootings happen so often that they are not rare? Has American society gone bad? Or could it be that of all the first world countries only the USA has so many guns?

First your assuming that banning guns will remove guns from our society. How's that working out for meth? How's that working out in Mexico?

Second, in the 20th century, 100,000,000+ were murdered by psycho nut jobs and the United States was relatively untouched. By that standard, America has an amazingly non violent society.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Pokey on December 24, 2012, 09:00:16 AM
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YlpSPi_2nLA/ThXO9t0iT1I/AAAAAAAAVKE/5tJqgw17QeQ/s1600/black%2Bbart.jpg)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: T Cro ® on December 24, 2012, 09:11:38 AM
You mean 'Bert'? Nah, Bart is nowhere near the level of vitriol and hate as 'Bert'.

With only 4 post total I should hope not......   :o
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: sherob on December 24, 2012, 09:14:55 AM
... Prohibition worked wonders keeping liquor out of the hands of law abiding citizens, didn't it?  Sure did!  It also created two whole new industries... bootlegging and organized crime!

So who had access to outlawed liquor?  Criminals.  It created the Capone's... and crime went thru the roof...

Police funding: INCREASED $11.4 Million
Arrests for Prohibition Violations: INCREASED 102+%
Arrests for Drunkenness and Disorderly Conduct: INCREASED 41%
Arrests of Drunken Drivers: INCREASED 81%
Thefts and Burglaries: INCREASED 9%
Homicides, Assault, and Battery: INCREASED 13%
Number of Federal Convicts: INCREASED 561%
Federal Prison Population: INCREASED 366%
Total Federal Expenditures on Penal Institutions: INCREASED 1,000%   


That was just booze... now do the same with a gun ban, or restrictions.  Some of those numbers above will pale in comparison when only the criminal element has them...
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 24, 2012, 09:16:18 AM
Twowheeladdict - I wanted to thank you for your comments on this thread. First, I thought it was very enlightening that you posted about video games affecting you personally, and that you had to get ahold of it. A picture into a tiny bit of what we may be dealing with. Really, thanks for that level of honesty, I learned from it. I also think your point about folks having free time to while away the hours in a video game (Or the internet, like I'm doing now) can lead folks to make some really bad choices.

 All - To carry it on step further, we all have heard about people seeking love, or becoming addicted to porn via the internet. go back 30 years - this NEVER happened. Society didn't have that problem. Why? HMMM, no internet maybe? Using this analogy, can we see how gun violence can be fostered by exposing the wrong person to violent video games or movie violence? It wasn't around when we were kids. and kids today don't go out and play like we did. Many spend hours a day interacting with video games rather than other people. It's not hard to see how the video games can become reality for a person who prefers that interaction instead of interpersonal relationships.

  Here's something else to consider - autism is on a rapid rise. I don't know alot about it, other than it's much more prevalent.  If so, why the sudden increase? Could there be food additives causing it? Could this be a root cause for why "times have changed" could that be a response to Barts question about why the USA is different from other countries (if indeed we are?).

Bart - I'm not opposed if you have a different position than mine. I believe that the answer to this problem will be a compromise, which means everyone is unhappy. I see the assault weapons ban being enacted; I see magazine capacity restrictions; I hope to see armed school staff; and hopefully we'll have more forceful laws to deal with mentally ill folks. And after all that, some loon, somewhere, is going to do something horrendous that violates all kinds of laws and shocks the sensibilities of rational people. Steve
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: sherob on December 24, 2012, 09:27:37 AM
Autism by country... we run ~ .20% here.  This was 2004 stats.

 http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/a/autism/stats-country.htm (http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/a/autism/stats-country.htm)

... interesting read about it... more details...

http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/2011/researchers-track-down-autism-rates-across-the-globe (http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/2011/researchers-track-down-autism-rates-across-the-globe)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Strawboss on December 24, 2012, 09:45:18 AM
Follow the money, Autism gets a lot of money these days in research and publicity. It was the same in the medical community a few years back with "Brain Attack", or what we'd call a "stroke". Now, the new buzz ailment is concussions, a lot of talk and money and publicity is going into this and you'll be hearing a lot of it in the next year or so. I'll not doubt Autism is out there, but I see what I'd call over diagnosing and mis-diagnosing what I merely call poor parenting, again, this is only based on what I see as a medical person. Anecdotal evidence is out there I'm sure as is scientific evidence, after all the movie stars go on to other things to testify about, Autism seems to be diagnosed less and less. Remember Ritalin?
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Bart on December 24, 2012, 11:21:51 AM
I noticed that several of you assumed I want to ban guns. I never said that. I just want to know why America is so much more violent (at least in terms of mass killing, gun crimes and murder) than the rest of the 1st world.

By the way, the 1st world does not include China or Russia it is US, Canada, Western Europe, Australia and New Zealand. If you do the research, you'll see the America has about 4x the murder rate the rest of the 1st world. America also has an incarceration rate more than 4x the rest of the 1st world. Mass murders happen elsewhere, but not with anywhere close to the frequency of America.

What is the solution? I'm not smart enough to know but something is wrong with us. Looking at the rest of the 1st world, I doubt that more guns and more jail is the solution.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 24, 2012, 11:24:25 AM
Bart - you're probably right- we really don't need any more guns. We just need the ones we have more strategically placed. Steve
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Son of Pappy on December 24, 2012, 11:33:36 AM
Why the separation of worlds?  Is a life worth more here?
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: sherob on December 24, 2012, 11:42:01 AM
We incarcerate more people for drug offenses than any other country too...

On Dec. 31, 2011, there were 197,050 sentenced prisoners under federal jurisdiction. Of these, 94,600 were serving time for drug offenses, 14,900 for violent offenses, 10,700 for property offenses, and 69,000 for "public order" offenses (of which 22,100 were sentenced for immigration offenses, 29,800 for weapons offenses, and 17.100 for "other").

On Dec. 31, 2010, there were 1,362,028 sentenced prisoners under state jurisdiction. Of these, 237,000 were serving time for drug offenses, 725,000 for violent offenses, 249,500 for property offenses, 142,500 for "public order" offenses (which include weapons, drunk driving, court offenses, commercialized vice, morals and decency offenses, liquor law violations, and other public-order offenses), and 7,900 for "other/unspecified".
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: T Cro ® on December 24, 2012, 11:57:03 AM
I noticed that several of you assumed I want to ban guns. I never said that. I just want to know why America is so much more violent (at least in terms of mass killing, gun crimes and murder) than the rest of the 1st world.

By the way, the 1st world does not include China or Russia it is US, Canada, Western Europe, Australia and New Zealand. If you do the research, you'll see the America has about 4x the murder rate the rest of the 1st world. America also has an incarceration rate more than 4x the rest of the 1st world. Mass murders happen elsewhere, but not with anywhere close to the frequency of America.

What is the solution? I'm not smart enough to know but something is wrong with us. Looking at the rest of the 1st world, I doubt that more guns and more jail is the solution.

Work less and drink more wine?
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: booger on December 24, 2012, 06:30:49 PM
http://home.nra.org/#/nraorg (http://home.nra.org/#/nraorg)

 If I choose to violate the law (I don't) then I WILL be looked at as a "gun toting criminal on school property".

Steve, I choose to violate the law, when I must.  If I have to use my gun, I will accept being a
gun toting criminal on school property, but my family, and/or myself, will be alive.

I will then let a jury decide my fate.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: aspire61 on December 24, 2012, 09:54:20 PM
Following this story from north of the border, most everyone I know finds your situation in the US puzzling. I'm not trying to be a smart ass about it, but it seems you are in an arms race with your own people and I'm not sure there is any way out.

If you reduce your weapons, the criminals will have the upper hand, and if you place armed guards at schools, I question if you'd be feeding the frenzy. If a nutjob wants to attack a school, I think he will find a way around or through any guard at a school. Is the next step more guards?

I also have no solution.

mat
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 25, 2012, 06:53:36 AM
Work less and drink more wine? martinis.

Fify
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 25, 2012, 06:56:36 AM
Why the separation of worlds?  Is a life worth more here?

Interesting question...  I've only ever heard of third world countries, never second world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: T Cro ® on December 25, 2012, 07:24:22 AM
Fify

Actually for me that would be more Spicy Bloody Marys with Beer Chasers.....   8)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 25, 2012, 08:12:03 AM
My kind of living!  Merry Christmas to all!
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: T Cro ® on December 25, 2012, 09:03:55 AM
My kind of living!  Merry Christmas to all!

Only if I can find an open bar or rest in Sturgeon Bay WI on Christmas day.... Otherwise   :(
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 25, 2012, 09:17:19 AM
 :'(
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Leo on December 25, 2012, 10:36:37 AM
Some people are not going to like this, but I think these statements reflect at least a partial answer to the question of why we have so many more criminals than other countries.  There is not intention to be provocative.  This is a matter that I have studied and involved my life in since 2004

Most people have little exposure to prisons.  I have worked inside 4 of them in 3 different states.  Look inside. 
A huge percentage of the population is made of people that either came to our country from somewhere else or are the children of immigrants that refused to acclimate to our society and accept our value system.  A house divided against itself cannot stand. I am in no way a blue blood, I was raised by an immigrant, who was proud to have had the chance to make a good life in America.  He had a great work ethic and an almost sacred attitude of thankfulness to be allowed this life in America.  This feature is not widely found in incarceration.

We Americans look at everyone through American eyes.  We honestly believe that everyone wants to be like us and part of our society.  Through both our socialized views of legal immigrants and our failed government control of our borders, we have attracted and absorbed a huge population of people that have NO INTENTION of being law abiding Americans.  They are only here because we are easy to scam and soft on crime.  They have no moral or rational motivation to live in a way that is productive and respectful to America.  They have no respect for your rights or any rights that we take forgranted as usual.  While the european nations mentioned do not have the crime problems we do, there problems are growing in direct proportion to the immigrants that refuse to honor the society that is their host. 

As far as true evil in some people, I believe in some cases that is true.  I have talked directly with some.  Most are not too conversant with a Chaplain, but when they speak, you realize that something is very different and that they are not simply misguided or immature screw ups.  I think there is a reason the hair on the back of your neck stands up around them.  That inner sense is a gift to warn you to protect your own safety.  Our legal system routinely reintroduces these our society for economic or other convienience.

Around 1903 we had a spiritual revival in this country.  Our violent crime rates went down significantly.   We also exercised capital punishment in greater proportion than at any time since.  By the mid 1920's we forgot what we learned during that time.  We have completely failed to teach people the responsible ways of life.  Our failure to speak the truth and demand all members to live up to the standards has not only attracted but also bred a whole section of amoral enemies.  These enemies are warm and comfortable with any pain they cause to the law biding and innocent.   

Goodness is taught to the heart by speaking the truth.  Safety and security is achieved by requiring people live it. 
It seems we are unwilling to do either. 

Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: gPink on December 25, 2012, 10:40:08 AM
 :goodpost:
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: ARS on December 25, 2012, 11:09:52 AM
+1
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Pokey on December 25, 2012, 11:17:37 AM
Amen Leo!  :thumbs:
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: tjpgi on December 25, 2012, 11:53:13 AM
Following this story from north of the border, most everyone I know finds your situation in the US puzzling. I'm not trying to be a smart ass about it, but it seems you are in an arms race with your own people and I'm not sure there is any way out.

If you reduce your weapons, the criminals will have the upper hand, and if you place armed guards at schools, I question if you'd be feeding the frenzy. If a nutjob wants to attack a school, I think he will find a way around or through any guard at a school. Is the next step more guards?

I also have no solution.

mat

Life is a series of events and sometimes those series result in tragedies such as the Sandy Hook shooting. Our citizens are not in an arms race with each other. There are folks throughout this country that have all types of beliefs and interests just like all other countries. Gun ownership is just one of those interests. Many people hunt, target shoot, feel they need the ability to self defend themselves or simply like to collect, build etc. When a tragedy strikes that involves a gun our special interest politicians take advantage and impose their narrowed views on the rest of us. Our Founding Fathers granted us the rights and responsibilities of gun ownership because of their fear of subjugation of the citizenry by a tyrannical government;
" the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The type or restriction of "arms" was never defined.

What led to the Sandy Hook shooting started as a deterioration of a mentally ill individual influenced and surrounded by a desensitized, progressively violent culture perpetrated by Hollywood and the video game industry that sensationalizes killing and violence; he had access to weapons, and unhindered access to defenseless adults and children.

To say that everyone exposed to violent entertainment will turn into a killer is about as irrational as saying that all gun owners are potential killers, whether they posses a single shot or automatic weapon.

What needs to be done IMO is to increase the care rendered to the mentally ill ( very tall order), deny access to weapons to these people ( secure storage, education etc.), crack down on the already known criminal element to prevent their access to guns ( not the law biding citizen) and secure soft targets such as schools and hospitals etc. I believe the continued assault on morals, personal responsibility, the continued glorification of violence in movies, television, music and the secular,"me now" society that we live in will continue to foster evil tragedies, the weapons used will be different but the results will be the same.

Replace (fire) one inefficient teacher in every school with an armed guard. I would bet if you fired all the inefficient teachers across the nation we would have more than enough guards. Don't stop there, lets fire 1% of all government staff and use that money; stop funding the UN, and cut off aid to Egypt and we could guard every soft target in our country. And lets start charging every country that benefits from our military umbrella and we could pay off our national debt in 5 years or less! ( I guess that should be saved for another thread)


Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: gPink on December 25, 2012, 12:04:11 PM
Gun ownership is just one of those interests. Many people hunt, target shoot, feel they need the ability to self defend themselves or simply like to collect, build etc

And there are those of us who possess weapons because there are others who say we can't.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 25, 2012, 02:03:08 PM

What lead to the Sandy Hook shooting started as a deterioration of a mentally ill individual influenced and surrounded by a desensitized, progressively violent culture perpetrated by Hollywood and the video game industry that sensationalizes killing and violence; he had access to weapons, and unhindered access to defenseless adults and children.


  Geez, not much more to say than that. +100! Steve
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Ron Dawg on December 25, 2012, 03:30:05 PM
That does say it all.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Nosmo on December 25, 2012, 03:59:47 PM
I'm not an expert on anything.  I'm not even particularly bright as most of you can attest from my postings here. But I think I can see a trend in why we have such a high crime rate here in America.  In Washington State the policy seems to be, "Well, he's only killed a couple of dozen people so far, so let's let him back out into the community and see what happens."  For crying out loud, the tax payers of this state are paying for the room and board, food, and medical care for the Gary Ridgeway, Green River Killer, for the rest of his life.  I'd much rather pay for the hangman. 

Just the other day, we had a murder in Bellevue, and the suspect is one of the guys who beat up a man a few years ago, who subsequently died from his injuries.  The "Tube Man" was a great guy who used to play the tuba and entertain people on the street at games and other places, well-liked and a great memebr of our local "street community".  These young thugs, all juveniles, beat him up, for no reason other than they thought it was fun.  They all got wrist slaps and are now back in the populace committing more crimes.  Below is only a partial list of some of the things these "fine young men" have done while they have been out being allowed to "turn their lives around".  Fxxxing liberal jackasses that allow this to happen are much more to blame for crime than gun manufacturers.

This guy is suspected to have committed the following crimes:
Having a pistol at age 19
Having a pistol in a bar
Being in a bar under age 21
Shooting and killing a man

He will probably not be charged with anything other than the shooting and then likely only with 2nd degree manslaughter, instead of 1st degree murder which it should be.  IF convicted (unlikely, and we will probably only spend 8 or 10 million dollars to conduct a bogus trial) he'll go to the big house, spend a few years learning bigger and better ways to commit violent crimes, and be back on the streets, again with an illegal gun.  Welcome to liberal America, where every criminal is a good kid, just misunderstood, who is in the process of turning his life around.  Gimme a break.

And, the mayor of Seattle wants to pass an ordnance making it ILLEGAL for me to carry my LEGALLY CONCEALED pistol on city property, busses, parks, etc., which is exactly where these "fine young men" hang out.  Good thing I no longer live in that fine liberal city.

http://www.king5.com/news/crime/Police-identify-suspect-in-Bellevue-fatal-shooting-184723491.html (http://www.king5.com/news/crime/Police-identify-suspect-in-Bellevue-fatal-shooting-184723491.html)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_McMichael (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_McMichael)
http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=11&sid=159577 (http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=11&sid=159577)
http://www.king5.com/news/local/Tuba-Man-Killer-Arrested-Again-114174119.html (http://www.king5.com/news/local/Tuba-Man-Killer-Arrested-Again-114174119.html)
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Tuba-Man-killer-charged-again-is-alleged-gang-3387010.php (http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Tuba-Man-killer-charged-again-is-alleged-gang-3387010.php)
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Tuba-Man-killer-now-facing-federal-gun-4100090.php (http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Tuba-Man-killer-now-facing-federal-gun-4100090.php)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 25, 2012, 05:43:36 PM

  but let me say this - and hold me to it - man will always find a way to adapt and overcome. IF you could take all the guns magically from america, I am sure some whackjob will take an SUV, crash a gate and run over  bunch of kids hopping off buses at school If the voices in his head tell him to. So then we'll need more laws, and let's take your SUV away...even though the worst thing you ever did with your SUV was transport your kids to chuckey cheese with it... Steve


  Maybe kinda weird to quote myself, but I posted this 2 days ago. Here's a story in todays news of a guy in china running a car with a gas cannister and firecrackers into schoolkids in china. No guns there, as they're subjects, but man will adapt and overcome...http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2012/12/chinese-man-rams-car-into-students.html (http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2012/12/chinese-man-rams-car-into-students.html)  Steve
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Leo on December 25, 2012, 05:48:50 PM
The Irish had a generation long feud where they killed lots of people and destroyed lots of property.  Hardly any guns were used.   Bombs, fires, booby traps, and beatings.  If you want wide spread damage, about $30 worth of biology chemistry can poison an entire towns water system.  Lots of ways for evil to cause damage.   It is not limited to the little M16 look alike.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: twowheeladdict on December 25, 2012, 06:01:35 PM
  Maybe kinda weird to quote myself, but I posted this 2 days ago. Here's a story in todays news of a guy in china running a car with a gas cannister and firecrackers into schoolkids in china. No guns there, as they're subjects, but man will adapt and overcome...http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2012/12/chinese-man-rams-car-into-students.html (http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2012/12/chinese-man-rams-car-into-students.html)  Steve

I would back a ban on all four wheeled transportation. 
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Bart on December 26, 2012, 01:29:26 AM
It is interesting to read that some feel or a least imply that the homicide and mass murder rate in America would remain the same without guns because other methods would be used like using an SUV or bombs or??? If we are to believe that when it doesn't hold true for the rest of the 1st world, then are we to believe that America is inherently more evil than other countries in the 1st world?

Also, jail sentences in Canada are generally shorter than in America. There is no death penalty and murders in Canada are served concurrently and a life sentence carries has parole eligibility after 25 years. Most of the 1st world has softer sentences than America. There is also a lot of immigration in those countries. I think most of the American mass murderers were born here. We are all from immigrant stock, So it doesn't appear to be about immigrants or jail, so why do we have this problem?
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Son of Pappy on December 26, 2012, 02:02:56 AM
It is interesting to read that some feel or a least imply that the homicide and mass murder rate in America would remain the same without guns because other methods would be used like using an SUV or bombs or??? If we are to believe that when it doesn't hold true for the rest of the 1st world, then are we to believe that America is inherently more evil than other countries in the 1st world?

Also, jail sentences in Canada are generally shorter than in America. There is no death penalty and murders in Canada are served concurrently and a life sentence carries has parole eligibility after 25 years. Most of the 1st world has softer sentences than America. There is also a lot of immigration in those countries. I think most of the American mass murderers were born here. We are all from immigrant stock, So it doesn't appear to be about immigrants or jail, so why do we have this problem?
Again, why the separation of worlds?  The issue is NOT guns.  The issue is society and the continued dumb down of the bill of rights and bastardisation of the COTUS .  Want continual violence?  Drive the roads around 2 in the morning on the 1st of January.  Go visit Egypt or one of your less valued 3rd world countries you hold in low regard.  FWIW, at one time we would have been labeled as a third world country, what changed that?  Simple answer and it would solve so many of the problems being discussed.  Let's get back to old school liberalism, stop stripping us of our rights.  And realize new laws will be ignored at the same rate the old laws are.  How many laws were violated in Sandy Hook?  How effect five did they turnout to be?
Gotta
Throw this in for a perfect example.  Ted Kennedy's car killed more peoplè than my guns have.  Super Storm Sandy killed more people than the murderer killed in Sandy Hook.  Life is measured, there is no established time for a life, society plays a bigger role in the when we die and how we die than many are wiling to admit.  Time is precious.  Live it like  tomorrow is a possibility that may not come.  Stop worrying about others and focus on the life you want and what legacy you leave behind.  Guns are not the proplem.  Society is.......
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: twowheeladdict on December 26, 2012, 06:23:00 AM
It is interesting to read that some feel or a least imply that the homicide and mass murder rate in America would remain the same without guns because other methods would be used like using an SUV or bombs or??? If we are to believe that when it doesn't hold true for the rest of the 1st world, then are we to believe that America is inherently more evil than other countries in the 1st world?

Also, jail sentences in Canada are generally shorter than in America. There is no death penalty and murders in Canada are served concurrently and a life sentence carries has parole eligibility after 25 years. Most of the 1st world has softer sentences than America. There is also a lot of immigration in those countries. I think most of the American mass murderers were born here. We are all from immigrant stock, So it doesn't appear to be about immigrants or jail, so why do we have this problem?

We have this problem because of a shift in morals in our country.  If we were somehow successful in taking away all the guns in the US, and successful in keeping guns out of the US, we still have not changed the society that is here.  The psychos will find another way to vent their frustrations with the life they are living.  They will turn to all the other ways to kill multiple people as found in their movies, video games, and the internet.  For one to question why we are different than the other 1st world countries, one would have to study all the differences, not just whether guns are available.  How are children being raised.  What foods are the people eating. What is the work ethic in school and on the job.  How much leisure time do people have.  and many many more factors that influence society. 
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Ron Dawg on December 26, 2012, 07:14:51 AM
Probably more insightful thinking going on here than in Congress about the same problem.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: tjpgi on December 26, 2012, 08:40:35 AM
It is interesting to read that some feel or a least imply that the homicide and mass murder rate in America would remain the same without guns because other methods would be used like using an SUV or bombs or??? If we are to believe that when it doesn't hold true for the rest of the 1st world, then are we to believe that America is inherently more evil than other countries in the 1st world?



Comparing a country with a population of 35,000,000 like Canada to the US is like comparing apples to oranges. Look at the per capita murder rate around the world ( regardless of 1st, 2nd etc. classification) and you will see that there are many countries with highly restrictive gun ownership laws that have murder rates that dwarf the murder rate in the US;Colombia as an ex.).

http://chartsbin.com/view/1454 (http://chartsbin.com/view/1454)

In Colombia, civilians are not allowed to possess pistols and revolvers of calibre superior to 9.652mm, automatic arms, semi-automatic rifles and carbines over 22 caliber LR, arms with military-style devices (infrared and laser sights, grenade launchers and silencers) and ammunition for these arms2

I think your assumption about 1st order countries with different murder rates graphically illustrates that there are sociological factors more complex than simple gun ownership that are resulting in unacceptable murder rates. It is however a "feel good move to simply ban guns for some and feel that something has been accomplished without looking at unintended consequences ( I am not saying you). A liberal newspaper in New York has now published the names of those folks that posses guns legally to shame them, as if owning a gun in this country is a reason for shame. This newspaper should be condemned for placing those folks on both sides of the fence in danger.

Our legislators need to be deep thinkers and not knee jerk philosophers but of course they will not be. During any crisis in this country of late the law abiding citizen loses rights because of the actions of the criminal element and the mentally ill.

I think you are attempting to solve a complex societal problem with a simplistic solution. When our society begins to condemn violence ( Hollywood types are the most hypocritical... you know artistic license), truly practice tolerance of different opinions
(conservative, traditional values), incarcerate violent criminals away from society for good ( recent ex con killing firemen), properly take care of the mentally ill, we will then be on the proper path to lower the murder rate in the US. The liberals and their supporters have condemned the NRA as if this organization pulls the trigger in every gun involved crime. If they ( the liberals) want to blame someone they might as well blame the Chinese for inventing gun powder, the originators of gun technology, and the Founding Fathers.


Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Pokey on December 26, 2012, 09:09:11 AM
Mob mentality, mob justice.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Son of Pappy on December 26, 2012, 09:30:45 AM
What side of the divide are these killers generally coming from?  I think it is important to ask as I believe a large part of what they do is for fame and a sense of furthering some cause.  As Brian said, mob mentality.  No mob you say?  Take a closer look, the mob is there.  Facts and logic are lost and replaced with pure emotion, driven by the masses in a rush of mob justice.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Nosmo on December 26, 2012, 12:41:01 PM
The weakening of the family group, mainly broken homes, the lack of good father figures, women who feel empowered and entitled to make babies as trophies or pets.

http://people.howstuffworks.com/serial-killer2.htm (http://people.howstuffworks.com/serial-killer2.htm)
http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2010/02/16/the-dangers-of-fatherlessness/ (http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2010/02/16/the-dangers-of-fatherlessness/)
http://www.helium.com/items/615755-a-psychological-look-into-serial-killers (http://www.helium.com/items/615755-a-psychological-look-into-serial-killers)
http://www.drtomoconnor.com/4050/4050lect04.htm (http://www.drtomoconnor.com/4050/4050lect04.htm)
http://www.mensdefense.org/STM_Book/FatherDeprivation.htm (http://www.mensdefense.org/STM_Book/FatherDeprivation.htm)
http://www.ukessays.com/essays/psychology/serial-killers-born.php (http://www.ukessays.com/essays/psychology/serial-killers-born.php)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Bart on December 26, 2012, 03:30:09 PM
Actually I think you can compare Canada to America. Basically the same beginnings with the same moral values, laws and constitution (although without the right to bare arms clause). Canadians watch the same TV shows, movies and play the same video games and a has large immigrant population. I doubt you could find 2 countries as similar. Canada seems to focus on peace keeping although a lot of Canadians are being killed in Afghanistan and Canada had the largest volunteer (per capita) military during WW2 and was in Korea. So violence is not foreign to Canada but the murder rate is only approximately 1/5 of America.

Could it be that American society has gone downhill but Canada has not or at least not as fast? Or maybe it is just to easy to pick up a gun. I want to believe in the goodness of the American people.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Nosmo on December 26, 2012, 03:58:07 PM
Canada and the U.S. of America are quite different.  I live on the Olympic Peninsula of Washington State, and go to Canada (mainly Vancouver Island) quite often.  I particularly like to take the M.V Coho ferry to Victoria.  I always sense a change in attitude when I cross the border.  The people are generally more polite, not quite as pushy, sort of more laid-back.  It isn't a huge difference, subtle but it is there.  I can usually spot other Americans by their generally slovenly demeanor, baggy sweat pants, dirty T-shirts, loudness when speaking, ill-behaved children, etc.  When I talk to the natives it is generally a conversation about something with meaning and communication, instead of the usual home-town "Yo, dude, man, 'bout them Seahawks, nome sayin'?" I'm not trying to knock my fellow countrymen, but when in Canada, I can see the difference, and yes, I know that there are many exceptions to the rule.  I go there because I like visiting there.  I don't worry about being without a firearm in Canada, for some reason.  I don't know why.  But when I get back in the U.S., I always feel naked (until I'm not).
But Canada is not without it's own problems.  Remember the mass-murderer pig-farmer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pickton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pickton)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: tjpgi on December 26, 2012, 05:39:08 PM
Bart

What you say is true however I think a major disparity is the size of our population and all of the challenges that come with such a large population. We have a significant crime problem in our major cities because of a variety of problems drugs, breakdown of the family unit glorification of street violence,gangs, drugs and their criminalization, racial divide etc. I think that a significant portion of the per capita murder rate in this country is skewed by the overwhelming violence that exists in our large cities. Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland to mention a few. Our top 15 city populations actually total more than the entire population of Canada. Our third largest city, Chicago will top 500 murders this year alone. There were 598 murders in Canada in 2011.

The entire statistical data for any subject is skewed when you have concentrations of data ( say murders) affecting such a large country. I would bet if you excluded the murder rate of our top 20 cities, the per capita murder rate would be similar between the US and Canada.

Gun ownership by percent of population is similar for about 40 of the 50 states (http://usliberals.about.com/od/Election2012Factors/a/Gun-Owners-As-Percentage-Of-Each-States-Population.htm (http://usliberals.about.com/od/Election2012Factors/a/Gun-Owners-As-Percentage-Of-Each-States-Population.htm)). Wyoming has the highest rate of 59.7% and Hawaii with the lowest 6.7%. There were 18 murders in Wyoming in 2011 out of a population of around 568,000.

So back to my original statement, I do not think comparing a country of 35,000,000 to a country of over 300,000,000 and drawing a simple conclusion is descriptive of the problems surrounding violence.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Bart on December 26, 2012, 06:45:36 PM
I agree that "simple" conclusions cannot be drawn between Canada and America but it would not be unreasonable to compare them. After all there are large cities in Canada: Metro areas: Toronto 5,500,000, Montreal 3,750,000, Vancouver (said to be the drug capitol) 2,400,000 and yet with significantly lower murder rates. The population in Canada does not generally feel the need for weapons for personal protection.

There has been a few mass murders in Canada but they are few and far between. It would not be fair to point to a few Canadian crimes and say "see they are no better". You have to look at the overall stats.

What makes a person living to Seattle different from one living in Vancouver or Detroit and Toronto?
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: gPink on December 26, 2012, 06:52:21 PM
Isn't Canada where wimps, pussies, and traitors go when they flee the US?
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 26, 2012, 06:54:13 PM
  I think the concentration of people in cities has alot to do with it. As our population has grown, so has the need for "personal space" and insuring you're not encroached upon by others. this leads to confrontations of an unintentional bump. Let someone "cut" a line, and it's on!

 I base this on my personal experience. I grew up in a city just outside Boston. I remember a time walking down a busy city sidewalk and I bumped into another guy. He picked up a big rock and threatened to bash my head in. My high school was a good school in an old part of the city. If I missed the bus, I could count on running, chased by the local gangbangers til I cleared their neighborhood.

 Then I moved to rural Florida. Pickup trucks with gun racks in the window.  As I would drive down the road, people in oncoming vehicles would wave to me. I recall wondering "what does HE WANT?" I scowled and refused to wave. Now everyone scowls. I am, regrettably, partially responsible for that lack of friendliness. I brought my northern city attitude to a quiet Florida town. I wish I knew then what I know now, I would wave to everyone and have left that northern attitude behind, because now this is a rural Florida town with a northern scowling attitude. Steve
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Snibbor on December 26, 2012, 06:54:53 PM
Ok, so how do you explain a country like Switzerland?  Where probably 98% of households have weapons, many of which are in fact "assault" rifles (read: fully automatic).
They have almost no gun crime.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Nosmo on December 26, 2012, 07:38:29 PM
Ok, so how do you explain a country like Switzerland?  Where probably 98% of households have weapons, many of which are in fact "assault" rifles (read: fully automatic).
They have almost no gun crime.

Well, that's just the thing.  It is darned difficult if not impossible to explain it.  There are so many thing that go into making a culture, and a nation that the equation is likely beyond anyone's ability to truly understand it. 

As Bart asked:  "What makes a person living to Seattle different from one living in Vancouver or Detroit and Toronto?" 

Well, a lot of things.  No one has yet been able to pin it all down, but those cities ARE different.  We in the U.S. have many subcultures, some geographically influenced like what Steve said, some racially defined, others by economic boundaries.  Weather, money, religion, race, population density, political affiliation, personal and national history, marriage and family statistics all have an effect.  Countries that have large areas like Canada also have this.  Quebec had to be different than Vancouver, if for nothing other than the language difference.  Perhaps the countries that are physically smaller like Switzerland, Sweden, etc., have a different dynamic because their population is condensed into smaller towns that tend to be more homogenous with less internal subcultures to cause friction.  Or not.  New York City probably has more subcultures and enclaves than Switzerland has in their whole country.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Snibbor on December 26, 2012, 07:46:01 PM
All true.  So I guess we can say IT ISNT THE GUNS.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Bart on December 26, 2012, 10:39:45 PM
No, we cannot simply says it's not the guns. I refuse to believe Americans are evil compared to other countries. It should be obvious that it's easier for the average person to pick up a gun and kill - sometimes kill over and over rather than to kill with other weapons laying around in the average house or car or just carried on the street. We all get angry sometimes and it can be so easy to grab a weapon if one is close at hand.

Again, Americans are NOT evil (or sick) compared to other countries.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: turbojoe78 on December 27, 2012, 03:36:15 AM
No, we cannot simply says it's not the guns. I refuse to believe Americans are evil compared to other countries. It should be obvious that it's easier for the average person to pick up a gun and kill - sometimes kill over and over rather than to kill with other weapons laying around in the average house or car or just carried on the street. We all get angry sometimes and it can be so easy to grab a weapon if one is close at hand.

Again, Americans are NOT evil (or sick) compared to other countries.

So Bart, your saying that it is the guns then? ... That's the problem in America, too easy of access to guns?

I guess I'm not quite sure what your trying to say.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: gPink on December 27, 2012, 03:57:40 AM
Don't discount 40+ years of dumbed down government education in this country. Add in the generational welfare mindset. And throw in the liberal/democrat plantation mentality. Oh, and the 'where's my check?' attitude that's been fostered in America. Does Canada have all things or or they uniquely American? The Canada reference is absurd.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 27, 2012, 06:58:16 AM

We all get angry sometimes and it can be so easy to grab a weapon if one is close at hand.


  Got knives in your house? Your family ever make you mad?  have you slashed up your family yet? let's get real, it takes a special person to commit homicide. For some reason folks who aren't gun owners think everyone with a gun is a potential homicidal maniac; that it makes us feel powerful and superior.  No more so than we all are with the knives in our houses. Think about it, the gun or knife doesn't turn you into a killer. Steve
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: stevewfl on December 27, 2012, 07:16:12 AM
Bart's posts are funny (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: twowheeladdict on December 27, 2012, 07:18:35 AM
No, we cannot simply says it's not the guns. I refuse to believe Americans are evil compared to other countries. It should be obvious that it's easier for the average person to pick up a gun and kill - sometimes kill over and over rather than to kill with other weapons laying around in the average house or car or just carried on the street. We all get angry sometimes and it can be so easy to grab a weapon if one is close at hand.

Again, Americans are NOT evil (or sick) compared to other countries.

Sure we can.  Otherwise, we would see the same rate of gun violence in other countries that have easy access to guns.  It is very easy for a swiss citizen to pick up a gun and use it, but they don't.

We have created a culture of selfish, entitled, the Government is going to take care of me, I'm not responsible citizens. 

I read an article yesterday where a lady backed over her 9 year old daughter because she wasn't responsible enough to make sure the child was actually in the vehicle before she started moving.  She blames the government and the car manufacturers for her lack of responsibility.

I don't have kids at home anymore, but I always open the garage door and look behind the vehicle before I get into it to back out.  You never know what someone may have put there without thinking about it.  I had a BIL back into my wifes car when she was visiting her sister because he just got in his car and backed out of the garage.  My own wife ran over the lawn mower that my son left by the garage door when it ran out of gas. 

I think people are not taught responsibility anymore.  I think people are in too much of a hurry these days.  I think the work ethic in this country has gone downhill.  We took discipline out of the home and the schools.  We took honor out of our society.  Yes, America is going downhill fast.

Why the rise in illnesses of the brain?  Why the rise in allergies?  Why are our daughters going through puberty years earlier than previous generations?  Why do we hold actors and sports players in such high regard?
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Leo on December 27, 2012, 07:50:17 AM
I saw the same article about the woman who was not paying attention and backed over her 9 year old.  Now she wants everyone else to pay to try to make the world idiot proof.

 That hits to close to home.  We lost a two year old in my family (through marriage) in Sept.  The mother was not paying attention and left kids in an operational car.  And yes, she foolishly chose to be busy with her cell phone rather than being responsible for her actions.   Somehow the car ended up in gear and the toddler was run over.  The local newspapers made it a front page story about irresponsible car companies that are killing the kids.  You cannot believe how many lawyers are trying to get them to sue the car companies for making a car that a child can put in gear.   Sadly, I think they will sue, and I am the black sheep of the family for not supporting the effort.   I am sad of the loss, I am sad of the families grief.  I am sad of the mothers guilt, because really, the whole blame rests on her.

This sick mindset is why we blame inanimate like guns and cars instead of solving the problems. 
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Nosmo on December 27, 2012, 10:13:55 AM
I saw the same article about the woman who was not paying attention and backed over her 9 year old.  Now she wants everyone else to pay to try to make the world idiot proof.

 That hits to close to home.  We lost a two year old in my family (through marriage) in Sept.  The mother was not paying attention and left kids in an operational car.  And yes, she foolishly chose to be busy with her cell phone rather than being responsible for her actions.   Somehow the car ended up in gear and the toddler was run over.  The local newspapers made it a front page story about irresponsible car companies that are killing the kids.  You cannot believe how many lawyers are trying to get them to sue the car companies for making a car that a child can put in gear.   Sadly, I think they will sue, and I am the black sheep of the family for not supporting the effort.   I am sad of the loss, I am sad of the families grief.  I am sad of the mothers guilt, because really, the whole blame rests on her.

This sick mindset is why we blame inanimate like guns and cars instead of solving the problems.

Leo, that's a large part of the underlying issue.  The average person, call him Mr. Jones, doesn't ever want to blame a human, because that raises the possibility that someday someone can blame Mr. Jones when he screws up.  If we make it a habit/policy to only blame things, then all of the Mr. Joneses in the country can rest secure in the notion that they will not be held responsible, either.  Toyota cars may very well want to accelerate on their own, but the driver has the responsibility to know that all they have to do is put it in neutral to prevent a deadly collision.

At my last job, I made a mistake with a test unit that caused some damage to product.  I told my supervisor, and told him what I had done, and he spent a lot of time trying to find a problem with the test unit, because he just could not accept the fact that I screwed up and was willing to admit it.  That was a new experience for him, because usually the tech's blamed the equipment for their mistakes.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Outback_Jon on December 27, 2012, 01:20:36 PM
I saw the same article about the woman who was not paying attention and backed over her 9 year old.  Now she wants everyone else to pay to try to make the world idiot proof.=
I had to explain to my daughter that her car going off the road in the snow this morning was her fault.  Not the fault of her tires, or the snow.  She was simply driving too fast for the conditions.  She said "I was only doing about 20 miles per hour."  Well, is your car still on the road?  No?  Then you were going too fast.  You pushed the gas pedal to make the car go that speed.  You didn't make the corner.  You were driving too fast for the conditions.

Sadly, I don't think I got through to her completely.  I think she's marginally aware that she might have been wrong, but not completely.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Snibbor on December 27, 2012, 07:53:03 PM
That's not part of the problem, I believe it's the bulk of the problem.  No one is responsible for their own actions.  It is ALWAYS someone else or something else to blame.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: stevewfl on December 27, 2012, 09:27:35 PM
That's not part of the problem, I believe it's the bulk of the problem.  No one is responsible for their own actions.  It is ALWAYS someone else or something else to blame.

Legislators know best, so they'll right some new laws soon 
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Snibbor on December 27, 2012, 09:44:03 PM
Some awfully harsh weather back East today.  We better ban snow before it's too late.  Maybe I could start that petition on the White House website?
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Nosmo on December 27, 2012, 10:57:57 PM
Slight thread redirection here:

If you think that humans (Americans or otherwise) are basically good, and that bad things "just happen" and people are not to blame, then I submit the following article.  This is not the first time that experiments like this have been conducted and the results are usually along these lines.  Remember, these are your neighbors and co-workers, sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, parents who are doing this. For fun.

http://www.komonews.com/news/offbeat/College-students-turtle-project-takes-dark-twist-184958711.html (http://www.komonews.com/news/offbeat/College-students-turtle-project-takes-dark-twist-184958711.html)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Bart on December 28, 2012, 12:48:21 AM
As with most things, the answer is not simple and a multipronged should be taken. We need to start somewhere. As a gun owner I don't want to give them up. But it is obvious that it is easier to kill with a gun than with a knife or other weapon you can easily carry. Who ever heard of road rage knifings from moving vehicles or drive by knifings?
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Nosmo on December 28, 2012, 02:37:54 AM
No guns involved:

http://www.komonews.com/news/national/Woman-set-on-fire-in-LA-as-she-sleeps-on-bench-185002001.html (http://www.komonews.com/news/national/Woman-set-on-fire-in-LA-as-she-sleeps-on-bench-185002001.html)

http://www.komonews.com/news/national/Man-pushed-to-death-in-front-of-NYC-subway-train-185006621.html (http://www.komonews.com/news/national/Man-pushed-to-death-in-front-of-NYC-subway-train-185006621.html)

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Police-Auburn-man-killed-cousin-over-Christmas-Eve-slight-184997121.html (http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Police-Auburn-man-killed-cousin-over-Christmas-Eve-slight-184997121.html)

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Woman-bicyclist-killed-in-hit-and-run-crash-near-Monroe-184931371.html (http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Woman-bicyclist-killed-in-hit-and-run-crash-near-Monroe-184931371.html)

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Man-wannted-for-sexual-assault-of-elderly-Kirkland-woman-184873901.html (http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Man-wannted-for-sexual-assault-of-elderly-Kirkland-woman-184873901.html)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: stevewfl on December 28, 2012, 06:29:16 AM
On a lighter note.....


(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/383615_10151259501857740_808874239_n.jpg)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: midnightrider on December 28, 2012, 06:43:02 AM
On a lighter note.....


(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/383615_10151259501857740_808874239_n.jpg)

I just busted up lol and everyone in the office had to look to see what is so funny!
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: sherob on December 28, 2012, 08:41:17 AM
I saw an interesting interview last night... made a very interesting point.

We have armed guards to watch our banks and protect our money.  We have armed guards to watch the precious art in galleries.  We have armed guards to protect factories... buildings... stuff.  We have armed guards to watch and protect our Legislative Branch... Executive Branch... Judicial Branch.

We do not have armed guards to protect OUR children... our future.  But when we bring this up, we are ridiculed.  Why?  Are they less precious than the other things that are protected by armed guards?  Are they less precious than a Senators child who attends a school that has armed guards?  A celebrity who has their kids in a school that has armed guards?

Just curious.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Rhino on December 28, 2012, 09:56:54 AM
I saw an interesting interview last night... made a very interesting point.

We have armed guards to watch our banks and protect our money.  We have armed guards to watch the precious art in galleries.  We have armed guards to protect factories... buildings... stuff.  We have armed guards to watch and protect our Legislative Branch... Executive Branch... Judicial Branch.

We do not have armed guards to protect OUR children... our future.  But when we bring this up, we are ridiculed.  Why?  Are they less precious than the other things that are protected by armed guards?  Are they less precious than a Senators child who attends a school that has armed guards?  A celebrity who has their kids in a school that has armed guards?

Just curious.

+1 :thumbs: The hypocrisy of the left knows no bounds
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 28, 2012, 10:09:57 AM
David Gregory's kids go to the same school as Obama's kids - Sidwell. they currently have 11 armed guards and are looking to hire another.

NYC mayor Bloomberg has 6 armed guards.

Even Rosie O'donell has an armed guard.

All folks mentioned want firearms removed from US.

 Just a few examples. Interesting, isn't it.

Steve
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Nosmo on December 28, 2012, 10:29:59 AM
Chicago has some of the most restrictive gun laws in this country.  They just had their 500th homicide for the year.  A shooting.  Seattle, slightly less restrictive, had 26.

http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2020007295_apuschicagohomicides.html (http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2020007295_apuschicagohomicides.html)

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2020003912_homicides28m.html (http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2020003912_homicides28m.html)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Pokey on December 28, 2012, 06:03:11 PM
That looks like an SR9 to me.  8)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Nosmo on December 28, 2012, 08:55:37 PM
This article is a few years old, but well written:

http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Active-shooters-in-schools-The-enemy-is-denial/ (http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Active-shooters-in-schools-The-enemy-is-denial/)

Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: tjpgi on December 29, 2012, 08:36:34 AM
Excellent read and common sense!!

 :goodpost: :goodpost:
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Rhino on December 29, 2012, 11:26:02 AM
One NEA union member actually has common sense


Selected parts from: http://townhall.com/columnists/kyleolson/2012/12/29/proud-nea-member-slams-union-opposition-to-guns-on-hand-to-protect-schools-n1475373/page/full/ (http://townhall.com/columnists/kyleolson/2012/12/29/proud-nea-member-slams-union-opposition-to-guns-on-hand-to-protect-schools-n1475373/page/full/)

It was hardly surprising that the National Education Association and the American Federation of Teachers immediately called for stricter gun control laws in the wake of the Newtown, Connecticut school shootings.

It was equally unsurprising that the leaders of both national teachers unions – NEA President Dennis Van Roekel and AFT President Rhonda “Randi” Weingarten – scoffed at the idea of arming school employees to defend their students and colleagues in the event of an attack.

But one teacher/NEA member, David Reber of Lawrence, Kansas, recently provided a common-sense rebuttal for the union leaders to chew on. His very logical ideas were published by Examiner.com.

“Mr. Van Roekel and Ms. Weingarten, consider a scenario. You're in a school and someone comes in shooting. You take cover and you and your students are, temporarily at least, safe. Your cell phone is in your pocket. What would you do next? You'd dial 911, of course. But why? What would the police bring to the situation that you don't already have?

“If you answer ‘badges’ or ‘a fancy car with lights on top,’ you aren't being honest with yourself. You call the police because they will bring guns and they will shoot back.

“Now, what is the average response time for 911 calls? Compare that to the response time of an officer or two that are already on site. How many lives might be saved in that time difference?”

Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 30, 2012, 07:06:09 AM
We have 'resource' (uniformed deputies) officers in the HS here in VA.  I believe this was the result of Columbine.  More than likely, this will now filter down to the middle and elementary schools in the future.  The week before last, just before the schools let out for Christmas, all the schools had deputies posted.  I wouldn't give it a second thought to pay more taxes to support all the schools having these officers.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: T Cro ® on December 30, 2012, 09:43:37 AM
We have 'resource' (uniformed deputies) officers in the HS here in VA.  I believe this was the result of Columbine.  More than likely, this will now filter down to the middle and elementary schools in the future.  The week before last, just before the schools let out for Christmas, all the schools had deputies posted.  I wouldn't give it a second thought to pay more taxes to support all the schools having these officers.

On a local level NOT federal level I'd hold up my hand to explore this option.... On a fed level we would have another monster equal to or bigger than TSA!
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 30, 2012, 10:56:35 AM
On a local level NOT federal level I'd hold up my hand to explore this option.... On a fed level we would have another monster equal to or bigger than TSA!

  +1 Steve
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 30, 2012, 12:09:31 PM
On a local level NOT federal level I'd hold up my hand to explore this option.... On a fed level we would have another monster equal to or bigger than TSA!

Deputies are supported by local county taxes...  The Fed counterpart would be US Marshals I would think..keep it local, I would.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: T Cro ® on December 30, 2012, 12:21:09 PM
Deputies are supported by local county taxes...  The Fed counterpart would be US Marshals I would think..keep it local, I would.

I kinda figured dat's what you meant....
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: gPink on December 30, 2012, 12:38:13 PM
Any possibility of tasking the National Guard under state control to train and provide security for our schools?
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Bart on December 30, 2012, 04:20:20 PM
So, I gather that the consensus here is that the problem is not too many guns but not enough guns and Americans just like to kill and without guns they would just find other ways to kill? I find this few of American society sad.

Interesting that you guys feel it will improve American society by turning our schools into armed camps. I saw a cartoon that said the solution was to arm all 6 year olds.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Strawboss on December 30, 2012, 04:26:57 PM
Don't feed the troll.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: gPink on December 30, 2012, 04:35:17 PM
Don't feed the troll.
Yeah I know but.....

Yes Bart, it is a very sad commentary on a Liberal influenced society. And my sons started learning about firearms as soon as they could shoulder a Red Rider.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Strawboss on December 30, 2012, 04:36:26 PM
DON'T FEED THE TROLL
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: gPink on December 30, 2012, 04:38:01 PM
....sigh  8)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: T Cro ® on December 30, 2012, 04:40:36 PM
Back on topic please!
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: stevewfl on December 30, 2012, 06:14:08 PM
One hour ago:

(NECN) - President Obama spoke out on Sunday about the need for gun control.
   
He said the shooting rampage at the Sandy Hook Elementary school in Newtown, Conn., was the worst day of his presidency, and he's pledging to put his "full weight" behind legislation aimed at preventing gun violence.

“The question then becomes whether we are actually shook up enough by what happened here that it does not just become another one of these routine episodes where it gets a lot of attention for a couple of weeks and then it drifts away,” Obama said on “Meet the Press.”


The president said he supports increased background checks and bans on assault weapons and high-capacity bullet magazines.
   
He also voiced skepticism about the National Rifle Association's proposal to put armed guards in schools. Twenty first graders and six adults died during the shooting rampage.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Pokey on December 30, 2012, 06:14:40 PM
“I think there are a vast majority of responsible gun owners out there who recognize that we can't have a situation in which somebody with severe psychological problems is able to get the kind of high-capacity weapons that this individual in Newtown obtained and gun down our kids,” Obama said.

Hmmmmmm.......seems to me that the parent and only the parent was 100% negligent in this, however the current system did and does work. He didnt obtain anything, he took "her guns" and killed her with one of them. She was in fact 100% negligent and in denial, however you are never fully prepared for what your offspring is capable of, or anybody for that matter. You never fully know until it is too late and it happens, then people react how they are doing now. Killers are cowards and they prey on the weak, it aint rocket science. Be very scared of this current government, next movies, the internet and music are the target. Yet another gun ban from another Democratic President.....imagine that. But it is for the greater good "of all".......yeah sure it is.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Bart on December 30, 2012, 07:05:38 PM
DON'T FEED THE TROLL

It seems that Strawboss is not capable of having an intelligent conversation. He would rather anyone who does not share his particular view be silenced. I thought this was a democratic country.

As I said, I'm not sure what the solution is and I don't want to give up my rifles but I'm petty sure more guns will not quell the violence. We ban some weapons like RPGs, machine guns and silencers. Why not assault rifles and armor piercing ammo? As we look around the 1st world, we can see what works and the big difference is controls on the type of guns available to the general public and how they can be used, stored and transported.

In May of 1986 Reagan signed a bill into law that prohibited the registration of new machine guns for civilian use. I guess Reagan was a lib nut job.

When the second amendment was adopted on December 15, 1791, I doubt the carnage of today was envisioned. Maybe we should ban all weapons that were not around in 1791. It would take a long time to reload.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: gPink on December 30, 2012, 07:10:10 PM
When the 2nd was written the firearms held by the military and citizens were the same. They didn't envision a government with guns and a civilian populace with torches and pitchforks.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: turbojoe78 on December 30, 2012, 08:36:13 PM
DON'T FEED THE TROLL

It seems that Strawboss is not capable of having an intelligent conversation. He would rather anyone who does not share his particular view be silenced. I thought this was a democratic country.




Bart, it seems as though your just as firm in your views of what you think would be best ... after all you've voiced them a number of times.

I think most of us on this forum believe that less restrictions getting legal guns into the hands of law abiding citizens would be a better idea.

And less restrictions on what kind of guns law abiding citizens could own would be a better idea.

And less restrictions on where us law abiding citizens could carry our legal guns would be a better idea.

I as a Watchdog Dad, or Sheepdog or whatever we would like to be known as, would like to have MORE ability to protect the innocent's of the world in a way that WILL save lives.

And I don't think anyone here said "Americans just like to kill" (except you) what most of us are saying is we would like to be able to protect people.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Cuda on December 30, 2012, 09:13:03 PM
I want a few Drones ;)
screw these little hand guns .
The nut job in Webster NY last week got a young girl to buy his weapons! I hope she gets ten years in Jail.
I can't see taking away a NORMAL persons guns , BUT I do believe they should make it harder for everyone to obtain them. In Fl. to get a CWP you just sit in a room for a hour or two (depending on the instructor) get a back ground check and your good to go.  :o
This past week I read Florida Firearms Law, Use & Ownership,
I believe everyone needs to read a book of this type and then take a written test, based on the Law in your area, When I was in NY last week my brother who is a attorney said the law in NY can change from county to county , that is nuts.
I don't believe in taking anything away,  but in more and better screening and education .
We need to keep firearms away from NUTS . Lasts weeks killing of the Firemen responding  to a set trap is one more nut getting his rocks off in a very sick way , they found a typewritten letter from him " I love killing people" He killed his Grandmother with a hammer  , killed his sister before setting the fire.
When someone kills another I believe they should be killed , I don't believe in rehab.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 31, 2012, 04:25:12 AM
To no one in particular.....   We want to keep this in the Open area so let's be civil in the discussions.  Thanks.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Snibbor on December 31, 2012, 10:13:14 AM
DON'T FEED THE TROLL

It seems that Strawboss is not capable of having an intelligent conversation. He would rather anyone who does not share his particular view be silenced. I thought this was a democratic country.

As I said, I'm not sure what the solution is and I don't want to give up my rifles but I'm petty sure more guns will not quell the violence. We ban some weapons like RPGs, machine guns and silencers. Why not assault rifles and armor piercing ammo? As we look around the 1st world, we can see what works and the big difference is controls on the type of guns available to the general public and how they can be used, stored and transported.

In May of 1986 Reagan signed a bill into law that prohibited the registration of new machine guns for civilian use. I guess Reagan was a lib nut job.

When the second amendment was adopted on December 15, 1791, I doubt the carnage of today was envisioned. Maybe we should ban all weapons that were not around in 1791. It would take a long time to reload.


I'm certain they weren't.  They were envisioning an entirely different kind.  It was easy to do, as they had recent experience.



Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: SANDPSYCHO on December 31, 2012, 11:30:53 PM
DON'T FEED THE TROLL

It seems that Strawboss is not capable of having an intelligent conversation. He would rather anyone who does not share his particular view be silenced. I thought this was a democratic country.

As I said, I'm not sure what the solution is and I don't want to give up my rifles but I'm petty sure more guns will not quell the violence. We ban some weapons like RPGs, machine guns and silencers. Why not assault rifles and armor piercing ammo? As we look around the 1st world, we can see what works and the big difference is controls on the type of guns available to the general public and how they can be used, stored and transported.

In May of 1986 Reagan signed a bill into law that prohibited the registration of new machine guns for civilian use. I guess Reagan was a lib nut job.

When the second amendment was adopted on December 15, 1791, I doubt the carnage of today was envisioned. Maybe we should ban all weapons that were not around in 1791. It would take a long time to reload.

Maybe not, but they did envision a tyrannical government coming into power and now that government wants to disarm us.
 
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: pistole on January 01, 2013, 01:02:03 AM
When the 2nd was written the firearms held by the military and citizens were the same. They didn't envision a government with guns and a civilian populace with torches and pitchforks.

- thats true.

- but its also true that much has changed (both in terms of weaponry and society too) since then.

.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Snibbor on January 01, 2013, 01:45:52 AM
Maybe not, but they did envision a tyrannical government coming into power and now that government wants to disarm us.

exactly!!
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: gPink on January 01, 2013, 06:42:43 AM
- thats true.

- but its also true that much has changed (both in terms of weaponry and society too) since then.

.
Yes. Society has gotten worse and weapons have gotten better.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: turbojoe78 on January 01, 2013, 03:27:17 PM
Quote from: gPink on December 30, 2012, 09:10:10 pm

    When the 2nd was written the firearms held by the military and citizens were the same. They didn't envision a government with guns and a civilian populace with torches and pitchforks.


- thats true.

- but its also true that much has changed (both in terms of weaponry and society too) since then.

That's also true ... but when the 2nd was written I don't believe there was as much of a difference between what the politicians and the common folk wanted.

Our founding fathers wanted to keep us safe, and for us to have the ability to keep ourselves safe ... they believed that we had the sense to know when it was time to take up arms ... as they had done.

Our current leadership is so removed from us in there elitist world that they believe they are the only one's who know what's best for us.

When actually that's all their thinking about is what's best for them!
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Strawboss on January 02, 2013, 07:21:49 AM
Oh no, I don't mind anybody with a differing opinion than mine, you can talk all you want, privately owned firearms have ensured that, so far. Everywhere across the country this type of "debate" has been raging since CT. We are saturated with "debate", especially from folks like Bart, who sign on to post only on a particular thread or hot topic and fuel the "debate" with controversial or inflammatory postings or simplistic ideas knowing it will incite other comments and "debate", then sit back and watch the "debate", all under the auspices of talking about a solution meanwhile keeping the "debate" on the front burner, as suggested by more than one media type lately. Solutions are coming folks, of that I am sure, and I have no doubt many here will not like them. But remember we had nothing to do with those solutions. 
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: T Cro ® on January 02, 2013, 07:32:41 AM
To no one in particular.....   We want to keep this in the Open area so let's be civil in the discussions.  Thanks.

Even better just completely ignore posters who are not bringing any worthwhile conversation to the table...
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Strawboss on January 02, 2013, 08:28:13 AM
Thanks Tony, thats what I was trying to say.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: twowheeladdict on January 06, 2013, 09:20:13 AM
When the 2nd was written the firearms held by the military and citizens were the same. They didn't envision a government with guns and a civilian populace with torches and pitchforks.

I agree.  I am getting tired of people wondering why citizens need to have automatic weapons and large capacity clips to go hunting.  Owning weapons is not just about hunting or personal protection.  We have the right to bear arms.  We should be able to form a civilian militia when needed, yet no one wants to say this to the press.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: T Cro ® on January 06, 2013, 12:07:47 PM
I agree.  I am getting tired of people wondering why citizens need to have automatic weapons and large capacity clips to go hunting.  Owning weapons is not just about hunting or personal protection.  We have the right to bear arms.  We should be able to form a civilian militia when needed, yet no one wants to say this to the press.

While it would be nice to own an automatic firearm very few of us do we own semi-auto firearms and we should be sure to point out to those who don't know the difference between the two...

As to high cap mags I own them for the very same reason that I own numerous SEMI-AUTO firearms for sport shooting and while I pray that I never need to use them against a human who has intent to harm me or my family I would and that includes a tyrannical government.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Pokey on January 06, 2013, 04:53:22 PM
Scary black guns.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Son of Pappy on January 06, 2013, 10:05:29 PM
To the flinlock crowd.  Maybe we should consider banning the same type of gun that killed Lincoln.  Or the weapon that killed teddys girlfriend at Chapaquidick (s).  Let's ban doctors, how many people do they kill every year? 

Question to no one in particular, 3 options when an armed intrudor breaks in your house at o dark thirty.  You have a phone, bible, and gun.  Which one has the highest percentage of saving you?  Prayor maybe, but if the good word has been followed (He helps those who help themselves) prayor comes after completion of action.  You can call 911, help is minutes away (I know, the threat is immediate).   Or you can defend yourself, reducing the threat to a manageable level.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: twowheeladdict on January 07, 2013, 07:21:44 AM
To the flinlock crowd.  Maybe we should consider banning the same type of gun that killed Lincoln.  Or the weapon that killed teddys girlfriend at Chapaquidick (s).  Let's ban doctors, how many people do they kill every year? 

Question to no one in particular, 3 options when an armed intrudor breaks in your house at o dark thirty.  You have a phone, bible, and gun.  Which one has the highest percentage of saving you?  Prayor maybe, but if the good word has been followed (He helps those who help themselves) prayor comes after completion of action.  You can call 911, help is minutes away (I know, the threat is immediate).   Or you can defend yourself, reducing the threat to a manageable level.

 :-\  I'm not finding "He helps those how help themselves" in my Bible.  Can you provide a reference?

I do wonder why this story isn't making national headlines:
http://www.ecanadanow.com/curiosity/2013/01/06/mom-shoots-intruder-5-times-in-loganville-georgia-suspect-survives/ (http://www.ecanadanow.com/curiosity/2013/01/06/mom-shoots-intruder-5-times-in-loganville-georgia-suspect-survives/)
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: Snibbor on January 07, 2013, 07:45:32 PM
It was on the msn home page yesterday, kinda buried in the fine print.
Title: Re: NRA press Conference
Post by: gPink on January 31, 2013, 05:48:38 PM
Back on topic is this bit out of Atlanta.

January 31, 2013 6:31 PM

Atlanta School Shooting Update: Armed officer working at middle school disarmed suspect, says chief
 By Crimesider Staff .

/ CBS Atlanta (AP) ATLANTA - Atlanta's police chief says an armed officer working at a city middle school where a student was shot was able to disarm the suspect, also a student, moments after the shooting. Authorities say a 14-year-old boy was shot in the back of the neck Thursday at Price Middle School and his injury does not appear to be life-threatening. The suspect was taken into custody.
 
Chief George Turner says multiple shots were fired, and only the 14-year-old was wounded. After some initial confusion about the nature of a teacher's injuries, officials now say the teacher received minor cuts in the aftermath of the shooting.


Police spokesman Carlos Campos says investigators believe the shooting was not random and that something occurred between the two people involved that may have led up to it.
 
Students at the school were kept inside for hours as their parents waited anxiously outside. By 5p.m. children were being reunited with their parents.
 
Atlanta Public Schools Superintendent Erroll Davis says the school has metal detectors and officials are looking into how the gun got on campus.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57567018-504083/atlanta-school-shooting-update-armed-officer-working-at-middle-school-disarmed-suspect-says-chief/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57567018-504083/atlanta-school-shooting-update-armed-officer-working-at-middle-school-disarmed-suspect-says-chief/)