Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: vortex2 on August 27, 2011, 04:12:49 PM
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Putting my '10 back together following valve check, I notice the lower hole on the
left side engine bracket doesn't line up properly with the threaded hole in the engine
casting. The hole in the bracket is lower than the hole in the case. And no matter how
I try to tweak it, there is no budging it. The right side fits perfectly. When I removed it,
it seemed that the threads were messed up so I ran a thread restorer through it and
you can thread the bolt in(without the bracket in place), but once the bracket is in place
I feel like it is going to cross thread again since it starts off at a slight angle.
It seems like it must have been built this way.
Any thoughts?
I am talking about the triangular shaped front engine brackets that have two holes at the
top to attach to the frame and one lower hole where the bolt goes through to the engine.
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Have you tried putting a jack under the engine and lifting it slightly to make it line up?
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If you haven't already done it, loosen, but do not remove all the other engine mounting bolts. That should give you enough movement to insert the last bolt correctly. Then you can gradually tighten all the bolts.
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Tried both of those things, the engine sits high relative to the bracket hole.
Loosening the bracket at the top doesn't help as there is minimal play involved.
Perhaps I will bore out the bracket hole a little, and fill in the area of the bracket
that is left exposed.
I just wonder how this could have happened from the factory.
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I don't think you have to remove both front engine mounts to do a valve lash check / adjust, just the right hand side. If you removed both, it is possible the engine shifted by pivoting down from the rear engine mount. I would suggest checking the manual on engine installation and roughly follow the procedure to realign the engine; it is probably something like leaving the rear mount loose while <gently> jacking the engine into position so that both front mounts can be installed. Again, I have not done this on a C-14 but that is the usual procedure (and pretty much common sense). The engine removal / installation procedure will be very different than just installing the front motor mounts of course but I am suggesting following the general procedural method; your engine of course still has the exhaust installed so you will probably have to <gently, carefully> jack the engine against the oil pan, using a piece of wood to spread out the force of the jack.
You will also probably have to loosen the rear motor mount to allow the engine to pivot around that. Otherwise you will just end up jacking the bike up off the center stand.
Brian
Putting my '10 back together following valve check, I notice the lower hole on the
left side engine bracket doesn't line up properly with the threaded hole in the engine
casting. The hole in the bracket is lower than the hole in the case. And no matter how
I try to tweak it, there is no budging it. The right side fits perfectly. When I removed it,
it seemed that the threads were messed up so I ran a thread restorer through it and
you can thread the bolt in(without the bracket in place), but once the bracket is in place
I feel like it is going to cross thread again since it starts off at a slight angle.
It seems like it must have been built this way.
Any thoughts?
I am talking about the triangular shaped front engine brackets that have two holes at the
top to attach to the frame and one lower hole where the bolt goes through to the engine.
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You don't need to remove both top engine mounts to do valves, only the right hand side one, if you removed both the motor probably pivoted downwards,
One thing to note, if you did that, there is a specific sequence for torquing the engine mounts down in the manual, once you get things lined up again you will need to follow that sequence to re-torque all the mount bolts (including the rear)
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The problem is that the engine is HIGHER, not lower, than the hole in the bracket. Not sure how the engine moved up. :-\
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Pix please...then we can see what your dealing with.
Dade22
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It is like there is an echo in here..... echo in here..... echo in here....
;)
Brian
You don't need to remove both top engine mounts to do valves, only the right hand side one, if you removed both the motor probably pivoted downwards,
One thing to note, if you did that, there is a specific sequence for torquing the engine mounts down in the manual, once you get things lined up again you will need to follow that sequence to re-torque all the mount bolts (including the rear)
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Unless the engine twisted in the rear mounts....? But like the other poster said, it is probably time for photos. I think we have
guessed gone as far as we can on a forum; it is sort of like 'guess that smell' over the phone.
Brian
The problem is that the engine is HIGHER, not lower, than the hole in the bracket. Not sure how the engine moved up. :-\
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OK Here is about the best shot I could get. If you see on the right side of the bracket there is
a machined area where the bracket is supposed to be, but it is slightly lower and to the left.
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I'll take a stab at a solution, try pulling the front tire to the rear, seems maybe that is what shifted. %100 guess, but it seems logical to me.
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The holes line up more or less front to back, just not up and down. The engine is higher than the bracket.
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OK, since were taking WAGs here, is it possible to have the left and right side brackets swapped with each other (reversed)? Since you took both sides off, maybe they got mixed up?
Another question, any chance your frame was bent from hitting something? I read one report about a guy that hit a deer with his 2011 C14, and it wrinkled the front of the frame.
Otherwise, it does look like the motor has shifted, but given the way it mounts in the frame, that seems very hard to do.
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No, the brackets are not reversible, and they are marked L and R.
No crash damage either.
It is still a mystery to me how this could happen.
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For what it's worth, I removed BOTH left and right Y shaped brackets while doing both my valve adjustments. Some unknown time after the first adjustment, both lower bolts FELL OUT and were lost! I went 30,000 plus miles between first and second adjustment, when I discovered the missing bolts. I have to assume I did not properly torque the bolts or failed to apply appropriate thread locker, causing the loss. The good news is that ridind the bike without these bolts caused no permanent problems or even any noticeable handling issues. The bad news is that does not really help the OP.
I agree with Brain that you probably need to follow the full engine installation bolt tightening sequence prescribed in the manual, including starting with loose rear mounting bolts.
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Use the right tool to make it line up (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
(http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/119905_lg.jpg)
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Steve is right- never force anything, just use a bigger hammer.
But really, that situation you have there is puzzling. Maybe it is as you mentioned and it was misaligned and misassembled at the factory and it really wasn't problem until disassembled?
Brian
Use the right tool to make it line up (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
(http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/119905_lg.jpg)
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Steve is right- never force anything, just use a bigger hammer.
Laughed til I cried. Never thought of that b4. :offtopic:
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The unusual thing about this whole problem is that there is no 'play' in the mounting system that I can discern. As another poster pointed out, he was missing both front bolts and had no apparent problems. From what I can see, the frame and engine are manufactured to fit together with fairly close tolerances, and when something goes wrong, there is no easy solution.
I lifted the whole bike using just one front engine mount and the engine didn't move a mm.
I wish we had a Kawasaki tech to refer to.
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The unusual thing about this whole problem is that there is no 'play' in the mounting system that I can discern. As another poster pointed out, he was missing both front bolts and had no apparent problems. From what I can see, the frame and engine are manufactured to fit together with fairly close tolerances, and when something goes wrong, there is no easy solution.
I lifted the whole bike using just one front engine mount and the engine didn't move a mm.
I wish we had a Kawasaki tech to refer to.
Have you studied pages 8-9 thru 8-11 of the service manual. There are seven sequential steps for installing the engine including the rear mounting bolts and ADJUSTING COLLARS and the left front engine bracket bolts which begins with step 3: "Thirdly, install the left engine bracket [A] and temporally
tighten the left engine bracket bolts "
I am guessing the rear engine mounting bolts are not adjusted properly, either wrong at assembly or they have loosened. If you do not have the manual I will send you these pages.
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(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-u-Y2ManR1Io/Tk5kNDjjhZI/AAAAAAAAArk/ZQjLQ0_Mgx0/s800/8-9.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-yhRqExIEWmo/Tk5kMGAtatI/AAAAAAAAArg/jZSpO-xFbdw/s800/8-10.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3edPtiXHKss/Tk5kMEO5U3I/AAAAAAAAArc/-sadtgiillw/s800/8-11.jpg)
(Already had it hosted from a previous thread...)
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hammer beats reading the manual any day (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
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OK looks like we are getting somewhere, thanks to all, esp. Lather
However, despite what appears to be a method to correct, does anyone have a theory for
how the engine apparently moved UP in its mounting position?
I can understand moving down when mounts were removed (gravity), but up?
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Any kind of tension in the system could cause the engine to 'shift' in any direction once the brace(s) holding the engine in place are removed. It is a fairly complex sequence to install the engine in the frame on a C-14 and there is always the possibility it was not done correctly, even at the factory, and there is some residual tension in the mounts.
The odd part here is that the engine did not just move upwards if the right / forward motor mount is still aligned. The engine would have to twist in the frame, clockwise by the sounds of it.
If that is what happened, the fix is still the same though- go back through the engine installation sequence and see if you can get everything to align properly.
Brian
OK looks like we are getting somewhere, thanks to all, esp. Lather
However, despite what appears to be a method to correct, does anyone have a theory for
how the engine apparently moved UP in its mounting position?
I can understand moving down when mounts were removed (gravity), but up?
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I'm kinda surprised my idea didnt get any traction, I'll 'splain it a bit differant, up on center stand, weight on back tire so front is off the ground and see if pulling the front end toward the motor relieves the slack. As I understand it, the motor is part of what ties everything together, right?
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I'm kinda surprised my idea didnt get any traction, I'll 'splain it a bit differant, up on center stand, weight on back tire so front is off the ground and see if pulling the front end toward the motor relieves the slack. As I understand it, the motor is part of what ties everything together, right?
Yes, I am pretty sure the engine is a stressed frame member but the idea is for it all to be very stiff - there should not be ANY slack.
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I just had a thought. It is a strecth but Vortex, do you by any chance have the cast aluminum battery cover removed?
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Interesting thought Lather....Now that you mention it, I wonder if that hole would allow enough flex to let the engine kant.
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Given how twisted the rear section of my frame was from the factory, I would have to wonder what the alignment tolerances are to begin with for the front (main) frame.
Perhaps this is just normal for these bikes, and some are straighter or align better than others. After all, how many on here have actually removed both mounts at the same time? I'll bet that number is in the single digits. That could explain everything, except why it was not spec'd better. ::)
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Given how twisted the rear section of my frame was from the factory, I would have to wonder what the alignment tolerances are to begin with for the front (main) frame.
Perhaps this is just normal for these bikes, and some are straighter or align better than others. After all, how many on here have actually removed both mounts at the same time? I'll bet that number is in the single digits. That could explain everything, except why it was not spec'd better. ::)
It was straight by "kawi" standards....???
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OK
Let me say that when I read the words 'adjustment collar' in the manual I got all excited, only to realize that they are not part of the solution at all. They only serve to reduce the clearance on the rear mounts to 0mm between the engie and the frame so as not to stress the frame when the rear bolts are torqued.
As you may remember from geometry, you cannot change the angle of a triangle without changing the length of one of the sides.
The three mounting places in the engine casting are our three 'sides' in this triangle, two in the rear and one in front.
In order for the engine to move down in the front to line up the holes, the engine would have to pivot around the center axis of the lower rear mount.
It cannot, because that would change the distance between the upper and lower rear mounts.
There is absolutely NO adjustability between these three mounting holes. They are fixed in place by the holes in the frame, and the holes in the castings of the engine.
On the inside of the front mounts, you can see threads were carved into them on the upper surface when the bolts were
threaded through at the factory.
The only possibility is that there is enough flex in the upper frame to allow someone to force the engine down while the frame is held in place, which would allow the bolts to line up properly with the frame.
I don't know the sequence in which this bike is assembled, but I can imagine one that would allow this to take place.
For the record, the holes don't line up on either side, but it turns out that it is the right side which is slightly worse.
I also am not sure of the purpose of the front mounts, as the engine is held very firmly in place by the rear mounts. I am guessing it has something to do with the overall rigidness of the frame, as they would prevent the frame from flexing upwards at the front of the bike.
Still at a loss as to how to get them to re-align. I think a giant pry bar from the front onto the head is the only thing that would work.
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It is certainly possible that something, either the frame or the engine, was a little 'skewed' from the factory and someone had to push a little harder to get it assembled. If that was the case, it would explain everything including your inability to reassemble the system now.
As far as something being 'warped', that is possible of course. It is also possible that a hole was drilled in the wrong place in the engine (we cannot tell which one(s) are off, only that the last thing to go together will not align) but I think that is unlikely. More like that the frame is off somehow.
As far as the flexing of something to allow the engine to align as Chet had mentioned, I don't think that is happening. The engine is very stiff and will not bend or warp into a new shape easily. The frame is more flexible but still it is a box- section and very rigid and not likely to be moved appreciably, or not enough to cause mounting hardware to misalign, with nothing but the bike's weight on it. A couple of people on board with the bike bouncing off of speed bumps for example and the frame might flex but not just sitting on the ground with the engine removed. At least in my opinion of course.
As to the engine being a stressed member, it certainly is on the C-14. The frame section is like the letter "C" with the open ends pointing toward the ground. The engine crosses the open points of that "C" and ties the ends together to become like the letter "D", or a stirrup on a horse saddle. Once the engine is bolted across the open ends of the frame the whole assembly (engine and frame) become very rigid and the engine itself serves to stiffen the frame (hence the term 'stressed member' because the engine is acting like a turnbuckle inside the frame and not allowing the ends to flex). The front motor mounts serve to attach the engine to the frame on the forward leg of the "C"; without them the engine would hang by the rear mounts and the frame would be able to flex too easily.
So assuming nothing moved when you removed the forward engine mounts, and there is not enough clearance in all of the engine mounting holes put together to realign the mount, and also assuming the front left mount was too tight to begin with, I believe you only have two choices: the first is to put the mount back on the bike by using enough force on the bolt to get it started and then tighten it. That is risky because it might gall, seize or cross- thread, all of which would be bad. You can go a long way to keeping the bolt straight by using a tight fitting socket and long extension but there is still some risk. The other method would be to remove a small amount of material from the motor mount bracket to effectively move the hole location. You could do this with a router or a round file by hand, in just a few minutes. Again, just remove enough material to allow the mount to be installed without any undue force on the bolt, not enough to make the bracket flop around on the three bolts before they are tightened. It is up to you which way to go.
You could also try getting something done under warranty but I really don't see the mfg. replacing either the engine or the frame- I think a dealer would just lean on the bolt and force it home, and then say everything was fine. Because the bike is apart it is also pretty likely that there will be some question as to the source of the problem, the owner or the manufacturer. This is always a practical concern when bringing something that is in the middle of being worked on and claiming there is, and always was, a warranty issue somewhere in the middle of the basket of parts.
Best of luck and please do let us know how this goes.
Brian
OK
Let me say that when I read the words 'adjustment collar' in the manual I got all excited, only to realize that they are not part of the solution at all. They only serve to reduce the clearance on the rear mounts to 0mm between the engie and the frame so as not to stress the frame when the rear bolts are torqued.
As you may remember from geometry, you cannot change the angle of a triangle without changing the length of one of the sides.
The three mounting places in the engine casting are our three 'sides' in this triangle, two in the rear and one in front.
In order for the engine to move down in the front to line up the holes, the engine would have to pivot around the center axis of the lower rear mount.
It cannot, because that would change the distance between the upper and lower rear mounts.
There is absolutely NO adjustability between these three mounting holes. They are fixed in place by the holes in the frame, and the holes in the castings of the engine.
On the inside of the front mounts, you can see threads were carved into them on the upper surface when the bolts were
threaded through at the factory.
The only possibility is that there is enough flex in the upper frame to allow someone to force the engine down while the frame is held in place, which would allow the bolts to line up properly with the frame.
I don't know the sequence in which this bike is assembled, but I can imagine one that would allow this to take place.
For the record, the holes don't line up on either side, but it turns out that it is the right side which is slightly worse.
I also am not sure of the purpose of the front mounts, as the engine is held very firmly in place by the rear mounts. I am guessing it has something to do with the overall rigidness of the frame, as they would prevent the frame from flexing upwards at the front of the bike.
Still at a loss as to how to get them to re-align. I think a giant pry bar from the front onto the head is the only thing that would work.
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Thanks Brian and others who have weighed in.
I don't anticipate that Kawi would turn this into a warranty issue, although a case could be made for something being defective. As far as owner error or misuse, the manual does not say anything about the removal of the engine mounts except to support the engine and unbolt them.
The reassembly procedure is very straight forward and makes no mention of the possibility of the holes being misaligned or how to correct such a situation.
When I originally pulled the bolts I noticed that they seemed tighter than one would think 'normal',
at the time I chalked it up to excess thread lock, but in retrospect I can see it was the bolt dragging on the mount due to the misalignment.
It seems as though the front engine mount holes are in the right place on the engine, that is to say
in the center of their casting locations. I really am at a loss as to explain what part of the manufacturing process went wrong to allow this to happen.
I had thought originally of just hogging out the mounting holes on the bracket to allow them to align, and then filling in the space with JB weld or some type of aluminum shim so the bolt would not be able to move inside the larger hole.
It seems now that is my only realistic alternative, because the bolts will not thread in any other way that I can see.
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Have you attempted the engine installation procedure yet or did you decide that that will not help?
If you have not yet tried it, that seems worth a try before hogging out. Are you able to see wether the crankcase to swingarm clearances are zero?
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I took apart the upper rear motor mount so I could see how the 'adjustment collar' works.
Unfortunately, the whole procedure is irrelevant to the problem.
I could take the whole engine out and put it back and it won't change anything.
To me the most telling thing is that there is nothing in the manual to address this in any way,
which tells me that this is NOT supposed to happen under any normal circumstance.
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Running out of ideas so just thinking "outloud". As I mentioned I removed both y shape brackets both times I adjusted valves, firts at 20,000 miles. THat time I did so in error. Discovered my mistake when I saw Fred's vid where he struggled to get a torque wrench on the valve cover bolts. I saw the left bracket was in place and causing the access problems. I had no such problems with the left bracket out of the way.
When I first realized the manual does not call for removing the left bracket I was worried about inadequate support of the frame and in fact the left lower bolt did not want to thread. I could not SEE a misalignment but the threads just did not want to hook up. I managed by loosening or removing the two top bolts.
Some time after doing that 20,000 mile adjustment the two lower bolts fell out. I still cannot imagine how this could have happened but I now have to consider the alignment problem as a possiblity. Did I strip the threads?
SEcond adjustment at 55,000 I again removed both brackets, remembering it made working on the valve cover a lot easier and figuring it couldn't hurt since the bottoms were not even connected anyway!. I have put about 4000 miles since then and I think I will pull some plastic and have a look.
One more suggestion: have you tried jacking up the front end? By the wheel, not the motor. With and without the right lower bracket bolt in place.
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I put a long extension under the left side front bracket and jacked up the whole bike without altering the hole alignment at all. As far as I can see, the only way would be to strap the engine to the floor and then jack up the front of the bike.
Somewhat difficult to do in practice.
I agree about torquing the valve cover bolts. I made a special socket in order to get enough
clearance between the frame and the bolts.
I love it when engineers give us sooooooooo much room to work on things.
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It was straight by "kawi" standards....???
Exactly my point. Thanks ;)
When I was re-torqueing the upper mount bolts on mine to try to reduce some of the vibrations, the right side top front bolt still felt really tight after loosening a half a turn. I was hoping it was caused by excessive thread locking agent, as the other 3 didn't do this, but my gut told me something else was binding. I figured it would be from damaged threads, but now I'm wondering if it was the bolt binding on the side of the bracket hole.
It doesn't help with your problem, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
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If there are holes located outside of tolerance (and it sounds like there is or are on your bike), then given the components involved I would assume it is the frame that is 'off'. The engine is made up of highly precise parts that are stacked (assembled) and it would be highly unlikely that any part used could be off by enough to cause your problem. The frame on the other hand is quite large and would involve being machined in many different chuckings and / or fixtures, all located from datum points on that frame. Something simple like a chip from previous machining between a datum point and the frame could cause a hole to be miss- located without it being obvious. Of course we are just talking here because no matter which component(s) are actually wrong they would be expensive and involve a LOT of labor to change. Unfortunately these things do happen and apparently it is not causing any problem on your bike other than the present difficult in reassembly. That is why I suggest just slotting the bottom hole slightly and reinstalling it.
As far as the JB Weld goes, I would not bother. The bolt will not be loose in the hole because the hole is too big anyway; the frame / engine relationship will place the bolt near the edge of the hole when it is assembled. JB Weld will not provide any additional strength as it will just be forced away from under the head of the bolt when it is tensioned. I would suggest using a washer under the bolt head, as thick as you can find, to spread the force of the bolt head out on the bracket and just install the bracket that way.
Of course this is never desirable but it does happen now and then on mass produced products. There have been a handful of reports of various frame bolts, seemingly mostly battery cover bolts, being cross threaded on brand new bikes. As the owner of one of these products we would be a bit cranky about it but in practical terms the best thing to do is deal with the issue and move on assuming it can be done reasonably well and leave the bike structurally sound. Unless of course the issue is a chronic problem on a particular model at which time the mfg. should make a correction available (like Honda did by repairing defective Gold Wing frames).
Best of luck getting that bracket fitted correctly.
Brian
Thanks Brian and others who have weighed in.
I don't anticipate that Kawi would turn this into a warranty issue, although a case could be made for something being defective. As far as owner error or misuse, the manual does not say anything about the removal of the engine mounts except to support the engine and unbolt them.
The reassembly procedure is very straight forward and makes no mention of the possibility of the holes being misaligned or how to correct such a situation.
When I originally pulled the bolts I noticed that they seemed tighter than one would think 'normal',
at the time I chalked it up to excess thread lock, but in retrospect I can see it was the bolt dragging on the mount due to the misalignment.
It seems as though the front engine mount holes are in the right place on the engine, that is to say
in the center of their casting locations. I really am at a loss as to explain what part of the manufacturing process went wrong to allow this to happen.
I had thought originally of just hogging out the mounting holes on the bracket to allow them to align, and then filling in the space with JB weld or some type of aluminum shim so the bolt would not be able to move inside the larger hole.
It seems now that is my only realistic alternative, because the bolts will not thread in any other way that I can see.
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I agree with you Brian, I will adapt and overcome!
However, I would like to know if this is an issue with more than one bike, or just mine. I suspect that not that many '10s have had a valve adjustment by now, and if you don't remove both
brackets it may be possible that the problem may not be as apparent.
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I put a long extension under the left side front bracket and jacked up the whole bike without altering the hole alignment at all. As far as I can see, the only way would be to strap the engine to the floor and then jack up the front of the bike.
Let me know if my questions get tiresome and I will shut up. When you jacked up on the left bracket was the right bracket bolted in place? If so then the frame is really ridgid. That brings up the question of either what made it move when the lower bolt was removed or if it was already out of alignment how could you even get the bolt out undamaged?.
I still say just loosen other engine to frame attachment points until you can align the two errant holes. Of course its possible you won't be able to re-bolt the other points but you won't know if you don't try.
I don't like the hogging out solution because it means the frame will possibly or likely be misaligned and that in my opinion is bad.
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When I tried to jack it up, neither bracket was bolted in.
As far as taking out the other mounting bolts, it won't matter.
If I bolt up the front first, the rears won't align, so I would just be
shifting the problem to the rear, where it is impossible to alter anything.
At least in the front I have a way to get it back together.
The bolt didn't come out undamaged, and I had to repair the threads
in the engine case on the left side.
I would still like to know how they got this together at the factory.
And what they thought was going to happen the first time someone removed the brackets.
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When I tried to jack it up, neither bracket was bolted in.
As far as taking out the other mounting bolts, it won't matter.
If I bolt up the front first, the rears won't align, so I would just be
shifting the problem to the rear, where it is impossible to alter anything.
At least in the front I have a way to get it back together.
The bolt didn't come out undamaged, and I had to repair the threads
in the engine case on the left side.
I would still like to know how they got this together at the factory.
And what they thought was going to happen the first time someone removed the brackets.
(http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/119905_lg.jpg)
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It seems that no matter what we always come back to the BFH!
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yes sir ;D
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When I tried to jack it up, neither bracket was bolted in.
As far as taking out the other mounting bolts, it won't matter. If I bolt up the front first, the rears won't align, so I would just be
shifting the problem to the rear, where it is impossible to alter anything.
At least in the front I have a way to get it back together.
The bolt didn't come out undamaged, and I had to repair the threads
in the engine case on the left side.
I would still like to know how they got this together at the factory.
And what they thought was going to happen the first time someone removed the brackets.
Either your bike is messed up or you are doing something wrong. If I'm reading the thread right, you may not have yet exercised your best option.
Unless you take out the bolts and install them in the factory specified order, you are depriving yourself of the most likely solution. You may be right, but lots of times I have seen things that "couldn't help" or "couldn't work" turn out to help and work.
Your bike. Your call.
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I am going to say this for the last time.
There is NOTHING to be gained by removing the rear engine mounting bolts.
There is absolutely no adjustment or anything else available or to be gained by doing so.
As it says in the manual, you are to replace the rear two bolts first. Once you do THAT, there
is no play, or flex, or adjustment, or movement of ANY kind at the front of the engine.
NONE, RIEN, NIENTE, NEIN. Period, end of discussion.
I have studied the bike and the manual for a long time, and there is no provision for adjustment, nor should there be.
I have been working on all things mechanical for over forty years.
This bike came like this from the factory, where they had some trick in assembling it that they are unlikely to share with me.
On other machines I have seen factory parts that were manufactured in a range to overcome this type of problem, but that has gone away with newer casting and machining techniques commonly used now.
Kawasaki messed this bike up when they built it, and I will fix it. I am not unhappy except for the time I wasted thinking I had done something wrong.
I started riding bikes in the 60's. I am so happy that I have these beautiful machines to ride now.
Please note that nowhere in this thread did I mention complaining to Kawasaki. I will continue to buy their products as I have since 1971.
And that is all I have to say about that.
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Really we have no idea if this problem occurs on '08's and '09's either- I suspect very few left / forward motor mounts have been removed from C-14's of any year. The only reason I can think of to remove that mount would be to remove the engine <gasp> and I do not think there have been many of those instances. For all I know mine might be might be misaligned and have been forced from the factory. ???
But as I said, given a tight fitting socket, a fairly long extension and the will to use them it is amazing what can be made to 'fit' and assemble. The person who did that to your bike probably had no idea that he / she was being.... overenthusiastic while he / she was doing it. I believe far more damage is done by ignorance and apathy than malice.
Brian
I agree with you Brian, I will adapt and overcome!
However, I would like to know if this is an issue with more than one bike, or just mine. I suspect that not that many '10s have had a valve adjustment by now, and if you don't remove both
brackets it may be possible that the problem may not be as apparent.
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Well the thought did occur to me to take my '09 apart and see.
I have a valve check coming up, but I may just take it apart sooner just to see.
I am sure no malice was involved. The person whose job it was to assemble, assembled
what they were given, and it worked fine until it didn't. I will assemble it back and ride on.
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Well seeing as we are just talking here, and you are thinking about looking at your other C-14 just to check (how many people have said THAT?), how about you only remove the left / front mount without removing the right / front mount? That way there is <almost> no chance the engine can shift position in any way. At least take the right mount off before the left one.
I do not have any particular opinion here but it is possible that the engine shifted on your '10 when you removed the second forward motor mount. I believe you that you studied the manual and have come to the logical conclusion that the engine installation order makes no difference, and you are probably right but I still have the belief that it is <possible> that removing both mounts did allow the engine to shift (moving 'up' on only one side the engine would have to have twisted slightly in the rear mounts) slightly. Again, I understand your logic and it makes sense, especially about the engine moving up but I have not studied the manual myself in that area so cannot really have an opinion.
Brian
Well the thought did occur to me to take my '09 apart and see.
I have a valve check coming up, but I may just take it apart sooner just to see.
I am sure no malice was involved. The person whose job it was to assemble, assembled
what they were given, and it worked fine until it didn't. I will assemble it back and ride on.
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Vortex2:
I need your advice. I went over a really large speed bump on my C14, bottomed it out pretty good and snapped the head off the upper rear engine mount bolt.
Can you remove the upper rear engine mount bolt with the other engine mount bolts still tight?
Most of the bolt and the nut are still in place and seem tight
Debating about just leaving it until the next valve adjustment in a couple years. But if I can replace it easily I’ll do it now.
Thanks.
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I just studied the installation procedure (08 manual, maybe 10 is diff. but I doubt it)and I think Chet is right and Vortex is wrong. It looks to me like there IS an adjustment going on. You insert the engine mounting bolts into the adjusting collars but don't tighten. Then install the left engine bracket then "Turn the engine mounting bolts counterclockwise with specified torque until the clearance between the crankcase and swingarm comes to zero" I read that as pulling the engine and swingarm together AFTER the left bracket is installed. I have no idea how these adjusting collars work but I think I understand they are there and I think there is a good chance the gap they close is the answer to the problem.
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It Couldn't Be Done
by Edgar A. Guest
Somebody said that it couldn't be done,
But he with a chuckle replied
That 'maybe it couldn't,' but he would be one
Who wouldn't say so till he'd tried.
So he buckled right in with the trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn't be done, and he did it.
Somebody scoffed: 'Oh, you'll never do that;
At least no one ever has done it';
But he took off his coat and he took off his hat,
And the first thing we knew he'd begun it.
With a lift of his chin and a bit of a grin,
Without any doubting or quiddit,
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn't be done, and he did it.
There are thousands to tell you it cannot be done,
There are thousands to prophesy failure;
There are thousands to point out to you one by one,
The dangers that wait to assail you.
But just buckle in with a bit of a grin,
Just take off your coat and go to it;
Just start to sing as you tackle the thing
That 'cannot be done,' and you'll do it
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:goodpost:
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Jayke, give me a little more info.
Do you mean the head of the bolt on the right side of the bike broke off? The one with the Allen head?
If it is the upper bolt you will need to support the engine from below. I made a special wooden block set
to span the header and catch the engine on both sides. Put only the tiniest amount of tension on the engine,
because when you remove the top bolt the engine will want to pivot forward and down. As long as the front
mounts are in place and the engine is supported that should be ok. However, if your mounts were factory
misaligned like mine were, and you remove any one of them, you are in trouble of an unknown kind.
I find it hard to believe that a bump, however severe, could have done this damage as these are very
substantial bolts. Things do happen, I know. But if the shock was severe enough to do this, you may have other
unknown problems lurking. Let me know what you find.
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Yes, I mean the head of the bolt on the right side of the bike broke off. The rest of the bolt is still there along with the nut. I suspect the engine has dropped a little because the rest of the bolt is stuck tight.
I really don't know when it happened, just noticed it was gone the other day.
I hit the speed bump a few weeks ago and really beat up the drain plug so much that I had to buy a bolt remover to get it off. I have a friend that rides a WeeStrom and he said he’s heard of a few Wee’s and Triumph’s that broke their frames bottoming out on speed bumps.
I need to check out the lower rear mounting bolt too just in case.
Just went home at lunch...the head of the lower rear mounting bolt is snapped off too.
I’ll get the bolts ordered and see what happens.
Thanks for the help.
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Bad news, Jayke.
The bolts only come out one way, to the right side of the bike.
The reason the allen heads are there is so you can loosen the nuts on the left side.
They are torqued on good from the factory.
If you can get the nuts off you can drive the bolts out to the right with something until
enough of it shows to get a grip on.
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE TRY TO SEND THEM OUT THE LEFT SIDE.
When you get them out you will see why. Remember to take the weight off by supporting the engine from below.
If you have an air wrench I would recommend it for the nuts. Sometimes a quick jerk will loosen nuts that a slow turn won't.
Good luck.
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My name is Jayke and I'm an idiot....
The bolts are fine, they are internal hex. Had I actually looked at them with a flashlight before I freaked out I would have noticed.
I've only owned it for 4 years, maybe I should actually look at it once in a while instead of just jumping on it and turning the key.
Sorry I wasted your time
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Lucky you. :chugbeer:
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My name is Jayke and I'm an idiot....
Ain't we all at times... ;)
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Well Steve, reading this long description about how the rear motor mount is removed makes me think you actually tried to remove yours. Is that correct? If so, were you able to have any affect on the alignment of the front motor mount by removing / reinstalling the rear mount (bolt actually)?
I also assume you have the bike together at this point- what did you end up doing and how did it work out?
Brian
I am going to say this for the last time.
There is NOTHING to be gained by removing the rear engine mounting bolts.
There is absolutely no adjustment or anything else available or to be gained by doing so.
As it says in the manual, you are to replace the rear two bolts first. Once you do THAT, there
is no play, or flex, or adjustment, or movement of ANY kind at the front of the engine.
NONE, RIEN, NIENTE, NEIN. Period, end of discussion.
I have studied the bike and the manual for a long time, and there is no provision for adjustment, nor should there be.
I have been working on all things mechanical for over forty years.
This bike came like this from the factory, where they had some trick in assembling it that they are unlikely to share with me.
On other machines I have seen factory parts that were manufactured in a range to overcome this type of problem, but that has gone away with newer casting and machining techniques commonly used now.
Kawasaki messed this bike up when they built it, and I will fix it. I am not unhappy except for the time I wasted thinking I had done something wrong.
I started riding bikes in the 60's. I am so happy that I have these beautiful machines to ride now.
Please note that nowhere in this thread did I mention complaining to Kawasaki. I will continue to buy their products as I have since 1971.
And that is all I have to say about that.
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I took out the top bolt to see what the 'adjustment collar' was all about, and how it works.
When I did I realized what the manual was talking about and promptly replaced it.
For anyone who hasn't followed the thread closely, the 'adjustment' is between the sides of
the frame and the sides of the engine only, and it is supposed to be 0mm, or no gap at all.
And it only adjusts at the rear, there are no collars at the front, because the ability of the brackets
in the front to bend slightly side to side allow for the gap to be closed without them.
In the back the bolts go through a very rigid part of the frame which is not going to bend easily,
nor is it supposed to.
There is no other provision, either intentionally or otherwise, for the adjustment or movement
of this engine in this frame.
And no, it is not back together yet, but the solution will be posted here when it is.
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I took out the top bolt to see what the 'adjustment collar' was all about, and how it works.
When I did I realized what the manual was talking about and promptly replaced it.
For anyone who hasn't followed the thread closely, the 'adjustment' is between the sides of
the frame and the sides of the engine only, and it is supposed to be 0mm, or no gap at all.
And it only adjusts at the rear, there are no collars at the front, because the ability of the brackets
in the front to bend slightly side to side allow for the gap to be closed without them.
In the back the bolts go through a very rigid part of the frame which is not going to bend easily,
nor is it supposed to.
There is no other provision, either intentionally or otherwise, for the adjustment or movement
of this engine in this frame.
And no, it is not back together yet, but the solution will be posted here when it is.
I think the point everyone is so gingerly trying to make here is did you loosen BOTH rear bolts at the SAME TIME, and allow the back of the engine to move away from the frame? This may in fact let the engine move around just enough that the front will then bolt together.
If it works, you get to put the bolts back in without reaming out the hole. Also, it may be that Kawi is using the engine to align a frame that wasn't built with exacting tolerances, by twisting it with the tightening of the engine bolts. That would explain why they have a "sequence", instead of just "insert and tighten the engine bolts".
If you haven't done this, it would only take a couple of minutes to try, and may save you some other headaches. If you have, just let us know.
Either way, let us know, as I for one will likely be in the same situation if I remove those front mount brackets on mine.
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I don't know how many times I have to say this before certain people believe it.
There isn't any way to adjust this engine up, down, back or forth in this frame. Period.
The adjustment collars on the rear do not actually 'adjust' the engine, only the right side clearance.
I didn't remove them to measure exactly, but looking at them I would say that they can 'take up' a
gap of perhaps 10mm or so. This is because the engineers did not want ANY stress on the rear
frame which would occur if they left a large enough gap between the sides of the frame to mount
the engine and then had the bolts torqued until the frame flexed in to absorb the gap. It's actually
quite a simple but clever solution when you see it apart. The engine is meant to be all the way to
the left side of the frame opening. The adjusters then take up all of the clearance on the right side
until there is 0mm of clearance between the engine casting and the frame. Then the bolts are
torqued to specification. This assures that no stress is placed laterally on the frame.
I will admit that when I first read the engine replacement pages in the manual I was a little
uncertain what this procedure was all about. I was even hopeful that it could help solve my
problem. IT DOESN'T.
I am not sure that if I say this another hundred times you will believe it. Maybe if you take your bike
apart as I have you will see for yourself. Believe me when I tell you I wish that I didn't have this
problem. Thing is, you may have it and not know it yet. But when you go to check your valve
clearances you WILL find out. Hopefully you will not have this problem, but I highly doubt that I
have a one-off bike here. Only time will tell.
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I can't help myself. :D True the "adjustment collars" and installation procedure does not move the engine in any way that will solve the problem. But I feel certain there is some reason that the procedure specifies installing the LEFT ENGINE BRACKET BOLTS before torqueing the mounting bolts and closing the gap. My guess is that it is because closing the gap puts some stress on the FRAME and would pull it out of alignment with the left engine bracket if it was not already bolted in place. I could be wrong, hell, I'm probably wrong but if it were my bike I would find out by opening the gap.
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I just read through this section in the manual because I wanted to check the torque on the my engine mounts to eliminate some new vibes. It is a pretty specific sequence. So specific that I tend to agree with lather. I too would give it a shot. It would only take about 15 or so minutes and would either prove that you are right or, if lucky, supply that which you are seeking.
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The reason they say to do the left side first is because the engine sits flush with the left side of the frame. They don't want to to do the right mount first for that obvious reason.
But,
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU DO WITH THE REAR MOUNTING BOLTS BECAUSE THEY DO NOT, REPEAT DO NOT AFFECT THE POSITION OF THE ENGINE IN THE FRAME AT ALL! I DO NOT KNOW HOW MANY TIMES I CAN REPEAT THIS BEFORE YOU UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The reason for the specific sequence is that the engineers are afraid that you will stress the frame in a very bad way if you
do not have the adjusters aligned perfectly and in sequence BEFORE you torque the rear mounting bolts. This is a very real a
and serious issue if you screw it up. It just has nothing to do with my problem.
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Sure am glad everything went back together with no problems on mine. :)
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It's not that we don't understand what your saying. It's just that we are not as confident in your conclusions about the Concours engineering as you seem to be. Some of us have read the manual and are not drawing the same conclusions, rather we are admitting uncertainty but seeing possibilities. What makes you so sure you know what the engineers had in mind?
The reason they say to do the left side first is because the engine sits flush with the left side of the frame. They don't want to to do the right mount first for that obvious reason.
But,
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU DO WITH THE REAR MOUNTING BOLTS BECAUSE THEY DO NOT, REPEAT DO NOT AFFECT THE POSITION OF THE ENGINE IN THE FRAME AT ALL! I DO NOT KNOW HOW MANY TIMES I CAN REPEAT THIS BEFORE YOU UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The reason for the specific sequence is that the engineers are afraid that you will stress the frame in a very bad way if you
do not have the adjusters aligned perfectly and in sequence BEFORE you torque the rear mounting bolts. This is a very real a
and serious issue if you screw it up. It just has nothing to do with my problem.
That to me is a contradiction. It looks to me like your bike's problem IS a screwed up frame.
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I never said my frame WASN'T screwed up.
That is WHAT THE PROBLEM IS.
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I'll repeat myself more clearly, without shouting. I/we think you are wrong and are too stubborn to try a simple solution because you think you know both what the engineers were thinking and that you cannot possibly be wrong. I have done a valve adjustment, and will do another, and have no concerns. Between your stubbornness and shouting, I no longer care whether you get your bike fixed or not. Have a nice day.