Author Topic: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up  (Read 21495 times)

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #60 on: September 02, 2011, 06:30:25 PM »
My name is Jayke and I'm an idiot....


Ain't we all at times...   ;)
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #61 on: September 02, 2011, 07:13:52 PM »
Well Steve, reading this long description about how the rear motor mount is removed makes me think you actually tried to remove yours. Is that correct? If so, were you able to have any affect on the alignment of the front motor mount by removing / reinstalling the rear mount (bolt actually)?

I also assume you have the bike together at this point- what did you end up doing and how did it work out?

Brian


I am going to say this for the last time.

There is NOTHING to be gained by removing the rear engine mounting bolts.

There is absolutely no adjustment or anything else available or to be gained by doing so.

As it says in the manual, you are to replace the rear two bolts first. Once you do THAT, there
is no play, or flex, or adjustment, or movement of ANY kind at the front of the engine.

NONE, RIEN, NIENTE, NEIN. Period, end of discussion.

I have studied the bike and the manual for a long time, and there is no provision for adjustment, nor should there be.

I have been working on all things mechanical for over forty years.

This bike came like this from the factory, where they had some trick in assembling it that they are unlikely to share with me.

On other machines I have seen factory parts that were manufactured in a range to overcome this type of problem, but that has gone away with newer casting and machining techniques commonly used now.

Kawasaki messed this bike up when they built it, and I will fix it. I am not unhappy except for the time I wasted thinking I had done something wrong.

I started riding bikes in the 60's. I am so happy that I have these beautiful machines to ride now.

Please note that nowhere in this thread did I mention complaining to Kawasaki. I will continue to buy their products as I have since 1971.

And that is all I have to say about that.
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Offline vortex2

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #62 on: September 03, 2011, 03:40:31 AM »
I took out the top bolt to see what the 'adjustment collar' was all about, and how it works.

When I did I realized what the manual was talking about and promptly replaced it.

For anyone who hasn't followed the thread closely, the 'adjustment' is between the sides of

the frame and the sides of the engine only, and it is supposed to be 0mm, or no gap at all.

And it only adjusts at the rear, there are no collars at the front, because the ability of the brackets

in the front to bend slightly side to side allow for the gap to be closed without them.

In the back the bolts go through a very rigid part of the frame which is not going to bend easily,

nor is it supposed to.

There is no other provision, either intentionally or otherwise, for the adjustment or movement

of this engine in this frame.

And no, it is not back together yet, but the solution will be posted here when it is.

Offline C1xRider

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2011, 09:17:07 AM »
I took out the top bolt to see what the 'adjustment collar' was all about, and how it works.

When I did I realized what the manual was talking about and promptly replaced it.

For anyone who hasn't followed the thread closely, the 'adjustment' is between the sides of

the frame and the sides of the engine only, and it is supposed to be 0mm, or no gap at all.

And it only adjusts at the rear, there are no collars at the front, because the ability of the brackets

in the front to bend slightly side to side allow for the gap to be closed without them.

In the back the bolts go through a very rigid part of the frame which is not going to bend easily,

nor is it supposed to.

There is no other provision, either intentionally or otherwise, for the adjustment or movement

of this engine in this frame.

And no, it is not back together yet, but the solution will be posted here when it is.

I think the point everyone is so gingerly trying to make here is did you loosen BOTH rear bolts at the SAME TIME, and allow the back of the engine to move away from the frame?  This may in fact let the engine move around just enough that the front will then bolt together.

If it works, you get to put the bolts back in without reaming out the hole.  Also, it may be that Kawi is using the engine to align a frame that wasn't built with exacting tolerances, by twisting it with the tightening of the engine bolts.  That would explain why they have a "sequence", instead of just "insert and tighten the engine bolts".

If you haven't done this, it would only take a couple of minutes to try, and may save you some other headaches.  If you have, just let us know.

Either way, let us know, as I for one will likely be in the same situation if I remove those front mount brackets on mine.
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Offline vortex2

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #64 on: September 03, 2011, 12:04:58 PM »
I don't know how many times I have to say this before certain people believe it.

There isn't any way to adjust this engine up, down, back or forth in this frame. Period.

The adjustment collars on the rear do not actually 'adjust' the engine, only the right side clearance.

I didn't remove them to measure exactly, but looking at them I would say that they can 'take up' a 

gap of perhaps 10mm or so. This is because the engineers did not want ANY stress on the rear

frame which would occur if they left a large enough gap between the sides of the frame to mount

the engine and then had the bolts torqued until the frame flexed in to absorb the gap. It's actually

quite a simple but clever solution when you see it apart. The engine is meant to be all the way to

the left side of the frame opening. The adjusters then take up all of the clearance on the right side

until there is 0mm of clearance between the engine casting and the frame. Then the bolts are

torqued to specification. This assures that no stress is placed laterally on the frame.

I will admit that when I first read the engine replacement pages in the manual I was a little

uncertain what this procedure was all about. I was even hopeful that it could help solve my

problem. IT DOESN'T.



I am not sure that if I say this another hundred times you will believe it. Maybe if you take your bike

apart as I have you will see for yourself. Believe me when I tell you I wish that I didn't have this

problem. Thing is, you may have it and not know it yet. But when you go to check your valve

clearances you WILL find out. Hopefully you will not have this problem, but I highly doubt that I

have a one-off bike here. Only time will tell.


Offline lather

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #65 on: September 03, 2011, 01:21:58 PM »
I can't help myself.  :D True the "adjustment collars" and installation procedure does not move the engine in any way that will solve the problem. But I feel certain there is some reason that the procedure specifies installing the LEFT ENGINE BRACKET BOLTS before torqueing the mounting bolts and closing the gap. My guess is that it is because closing the gap puts some stress on the FRAME and would pull it out of alignment with the left engine bracket if it was not already bolted in place. I could be wrong, hell, I'm probably wrong but if it were my bike I would find out by opening the gap.
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Offline Tactical_Mik

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #66 on: September 03, 2011, 01:27:21 PM »
I just read through this section in the manual because I wanted to check the torque on the my engine mounts to eliminate some new vibes.  It is a pretty specific sequence.  So specific that I tend to agree with lather.  I too would give it a shot.  It would only take about 15 or so minutes and would either prove that you are right or, if lucky, supply that which you are seeking.
T.S.R.

Offline vortex2

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #67 on: September 03, 2011, 02:40:04 PM »
The reason they say to do the left side first is because the engine sits flush with the left side of the frame. They don't want to to do the right mount first for that obvious reason.

But,

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU DO WITH THE REAR MOUNTING BOLTS BECAUSE THEY DO NOT, REPEAT DO NOT AFFECT THE POSITION OF THE ENGINE IN THE FRAME AT ALL! I DO NOT KNOW HOW MANY TIMES I CAN REPEAT THIS BEFORE YOU UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The reason for the specific sequence is that the engineers are afraid that you will stress the frame in a very bad way if you

do not have the adjusters aligned perfectly and in sequence BEFORE you torque the rear mounting bolts. This is a very real a

and serious issue if you screw it up. It just has nothing to do with my problem. 

Offline Mi 14

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #68 on: September 03, 2011, 03:16:40 PM »
Sure am glad everything went back together with no problems on mine.  :)

Offline lather

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2011, 03:49:51 PM »
It's not that we don't understand what your saying. It's just that we are not as confident in your conclusions about the Concours engineering as you seem to be. Some of us have read the manual and are not drawing the same conclusions, rather we are admitting uncertainty but seeing possibilities. What makes you so sure you know what the engineers had in mind?

The reason they say to do the left side first is because the engine sits flush with the left side of the frame. They don't want to to do the right mount first for that obvious reason.

But,

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU DO WITH THE REAR MOUNTING BOLTS BECAUSE THEY DO NOT, REPEAT DO NOT AFFECT THE POSITION OF THE ENGINE IN THE FRAME AT ALL! I DO NOT KNOW HOW MANY TIMES I CAN REPEAT THIS BEFORE YOU UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The reason for the specific sequence is that the engineers are afraid that you will stress the frame in a very bad way if you

do not have the adjusters aligned perfectly and in sequence BEFORE you torque the rear mounting bolts. This is a very real a

and serious issue if you screw it up. It just has nothing to do with my problem.
That to me is a contradiction. It looks to me like your bike's problem IS a screwed up frame.
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Offline vortex2

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2011, 03:56:25 PM »
I never said my frame WASN'T screwed up.

That is WHAT THE PROBLEM IS.


Offline lt1

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2011, 11:49:43 PM »
I'll repeat myself more clearly, without shouting.  I/we think you are wrong and are too stubborn to try a simple solution because you think you know both what the engineers were thinking and that you cannot possibly be wrong.  I have done a valve adjustment, and will do another, and have no concerns.  Between your stubbornness and shouting, I no longer care whether you get your bike fixed or not.  Have a nice day.
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