Author Topic: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up  (Read 21494 times)

Offline lather

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2011, 07:17:16 AM »
The unusual thing about this whole problem is that there is no 'play' in the mounting system that I can discern. As another poster pointed out, he was missing both front bolts and had no apparent problems. From what I can see, the frame and engine are manufactured to fit together with fairly close tolerances, and when something goes wrong, there is no easy solution.
I lifted the whole bike using just one front engine mount and the engine didn't move a mm.
I wish we had a Kawasaki tech to refer to.
Have you studied pages 8-9 thru 8-11 of the service manual. There are seven sequential steps for installing the engine including the rear mounting bolts and ADJUSTING COLLARS and the left front engine bracket bolts which begins with step 3: "Thirdly, install the left engine bracket [A] and temporally
tighten the left engine bracket bolts "

I am guessing the rear engine mounting bolts are not adjusted properly, either wrong at assembly or they have loosened. If you do not have the manual I will send you these pages.
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Offline Mad River Marc

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2011, 07:49:52 AM »






(Already had it hosted from a previous thread...)




Offline stevewfl

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2011, 08:13:01 AM »
hammer beats reading the manual any day
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Offline vortex2

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2011, 12:47:35 PM »
OK looks like we are getting somewhere, thanks to all, esp. Lather

However, despite what appears to be a method to correct, does anyone have a theory for
how the engine apparently moved UP in its mounting position?

I can understand moving down when mounts were removed (gravity), but up?

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2011, 02:36:13 PM »
Any kind of tension in the system could cause the engine to 'shift' in any direction once the brace(s) holding the engine in place are removed. It is a fairly complex sequence to install the engine in the frame on a C-14 and there is always the possibility it was not done correctly, even at the factory, and there is some residual tension in the mounts.

The odd part here is that the engine did not just move upwards if the right / forward motor mount is still aligned. The engine would have to twist in the frame, clockwise by the sounds of it.

If that is what happened, the fix is still the same though- go back through the engine installation sequence and see if you can get everything to align properly.

Brian


OK looks like we are getting somewhere, thanks to all, esp. Lather

However, despite what appears to be a method to correct, does anyone have a theory for
how the engine apparently moved UP in its mounting position?

I can understand moving down when mounts were removed (gravity), but up?
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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2011, 03:29:53 PM »
I'm kinda surprised my idea didnt get any traction, I'll 'splain it a bit differant, up on center stand, weight on back tire so front is off the ground and see if pulling the front end toward the motor relieves the slack.  As I understand it, the motor is part of what ties everything together, right?

Offline lather

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2011, 03:44:49 PM »
I'm kinda surprised my idea didnt get any traction, I'll 'splain it a bit differant, up on center stand, weight on back tire so front is off the ground and see if pulling the front end toward the motor relieves the slack.  As I understand it, the motor is part of what ties everything together, right?
Yes, I am pretty sure the engine is a stressed frame member but the idea is for it all to be very stiff - there should not be ANY slack.
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Offline lather

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2011, 03:48:02 PM »
I just had a thought. It is a strecth but Vortex, do you by any chance have the cast aluminum battery cover removed?
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Offline Tactical_Mik

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2011, 04:03:36 PM »
Interesting thought Lather....Now that you mention it, I wonder if that hole would allow enough flex to let the engine kant.
T.S.R.

Offline C1xRider

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2011, 04:35:54 PM »
Given how twisted the rear section of my frame was from the factory, I would have to wonder what the alignment tolerances are to begin with for the front (main) frame.

Perhaps this is just normal for these bikes, and some are straighter or align better than others.  After all, how many on here have actually removed both mounts at the same time?  I'll bet that number is in the single digits.  That could explain everything, except why it was not spec'd better.   ::)
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Offline stevewfl

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2011, 05:25:50 PM »
Given how twisted the rear section of my frame was from the factory, I would have to wonder what the alignment tolerances are to begin with for the front (main) frame.

Perhaps this is just normal for these bikes, and some are straighter or align better than others.  After all, how many on here have actually removed both mounts at the same time?  I'll bet that number is in the single digits.  That could explain everything, except why it was not spec'd better.   ::)

It was straight by "kawi" standards....???
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Offline vortex2

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2011, 06:56:01 PM »
OK

Let me say that when I read the words 'adjustment collar' in the manual I got all excited, only to realize that they are not part of the solution at all. They only serve to reduce the clearance on the rear mounts to 0mm between the engie and the frame so as not to stress the frame when the rear bolts are torqued.

As you may remember from geometry, you cannot change the angle of a triangle without changing the length of one of the sides.

The three mounting places in the engine casting are our three 'sides' in this triangle, two in the rear and one in front.
In order for the engine to move down in the front to line up the holes, the engine would have to pivot around the center axis of the lower rear mount.

It cannot, because that would change the distance between the upper and lower rear mounts.

There is absolutely NO adjustability between these three mounting holes. They are fixed in place by the holes in the frame, and the holes in the castings of the engine.

On the inside of the front mounts, you can see threads were carved into them on the upper surface when the bolts were
threaded through at the factory.

The only possibility is that there is enough flex in the upper frame to allow someone to force the engine down while the frame is held in place, which would allow the bolts to line up properly with the frame.

I don't know the sequence in which this bike is assembled, but I can imagine one that would allow this to take place.

For the record, the holes don't line up on either side, but it turns out that it is the right side which is slightly worse.

I also am not sure of the purpose of the front mounts, as the engine is held very firmly in place by the rear mounts. I am guessing it has something to do with the overall rigidness of the frame, as they would prevent the frame from flexing upwards at the front of the bike.

Still at a loss as to how to get them to re-align. I think a giant pry bar from the front onto the head is the only thing that would work.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2011, 08:53:47 PM »
It is certainly possible that something, either the frame or the engine, was a little 'skewed' from the factory and someone had to push a little harder to get it assembled. If that was the case, it would explain everything including your inability to reassemble the system now.

As far as something being 'warped', that is possible of course. It is also possible that a hole was drilled in the wrong place in the engine (we cannot tell which one(s) are off, only that the last thing to go together will not align) but I think that is unlikely. More like that the frame is off somehow.

As far as the flexing of something to allow the engine to align as Chet had mentioned, I don't think that is happening. The engine is very stiff and will not bend or warp into a new shape easily. The frame is more flexible but still it is a box- section and very rigid and not likely to be moved appreciably, or not enough to cause mounting hardware to misalign, with nothing but the bike's weight on it. A couple of people on board with the bike bouncing off of speed bumps for example and the frame might flex but not just sitting on the ground with the engine removed. At least in my opinion of course.

As to the engine being a stressed member, it certainly is on the C-14. The frame section is like the letter "C" with the open ends pointing toward the ground. The engine crosses the open points of that "C" and ties the ends together to become like the letter "D", or a stirrup on a horse saddle. Once the engine is bolted across the open ends of the frame the whole assembly (engine and frame) become very rigid and the engine itself serves to stiffen the frame (hence the term 'stressed member' because the engine is acting like a turnbuckle inside the frame and not allowing the ends to flex). The front motor mounts serve to attach the engine to the frame on the forward leg of the "C"; without them the engine would hang by the rear mounts and the frame would be able to flex too easily.

So assuming nothing moved when you removed the forward engine mounts, and there is not enough clearance in all of the engine mounting holes put together to realign the mount, and also assuming the front left mount was too tight to begin with, I believe you only have two choices: the first is to put the mount back on the bike by using enough force on the bolt to get it started and then tighten it. That is risky because it might gall, seize or cross- thread, all of which would be bad. You can go a long way to keeping the bolt straight by using a tight fitting socket and long extension but there is still some risk. The other method would be to remove a small amount of material from the motor mount bracket to effectively move the hole location. You could do this with a router or a round file by hand, in just a few minutes. Again, just remove enough material to allow the mount to be installed without any undue force on the bolt, not enough to make the bracket flop around on the three bolts before they are tightened. It is up to you which way to go.

You could also try getting something done under warranty but I really don't see the mfg. replacing either the engine or the frame- I think a dealer would just lean on the bolt and force it home, and then say everything was fine. Because the bike is apart it is also pretty likely that there will be some question as to the source of the problem, the owner or the manufacturer. This is always a practical concern when bringing something that is in the middle of being worked on and claiming there is, and always was, a warranty issue somewhere in the middle of the basket of parts.

Best of luck and please do let us know how this goes.

Brian



OK

Let me say that when I read the words 'adjustment collar' in the manual I got all excited, only to realize that they are not part of the solution at all. They only serve to reduce the clearance on the rear mounts to 0mm between the engie and the frame so as not to stress the frame when the rear bolts are torqued.

As you may remember from geometry, you cannot change the angle of a triangle without changing the length of one of the sides.

The three mounting places in the engine casting are our three 'sides' in this triangle, two in the rear and one in front.
In order for the engine to move down in the front to line up the holes, the engine would have to pivot around the center axis of the lower rear mount.

It cannot, because that would change the distance between the upper and lower rear mounts.

There is absolutely NO adjustability between these three mounting holes. They are fixed in place by the holes in the frame, and the holes in the castings of the engine.

On the inside of the front mounts, you can see threads were carved into them on the upper surface when the bolts were
threaded through at the factory.

The only possibility is that there is enough flex in the upper frame to allow someone to force the engine down while the frame is held in place, which would allow the bolts to line up properly with the frame.

I don't know the sequence in which this bike is assembled, but I can imagine one that would allow this to take place.

For the record, the holes don't line up on either side, but it turns out that it is the right side which is slightly worse.

I also am not sure of the purpose of the front mounts, as the engine is held very firmly in place by the rear mounts. I am guessing it has something to do with the overall rigidness of the frame, as they would prevent the frame from flexing upwards at the front of the bike.

Still at a loss as to how to get them to re-align. I think a giant pry bar from the front onto the head is the only thing that would work.
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Offline vortex2

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2011, 05:21:27 AM »
Thanks Brian and others who have weighed in.

I don't anticipate that Kawi would turn this into a warranty issue, although a case could be made for something being defective. As far as owner error or misuse, the manual does not say anything about the removal of the engine mounts except to support the engine and unbolt them.
The reassembly procedure is very straight forward and makes no mention of the possibility of the holes being misaligned or how to correct such a situation.

When I originally pulled the bolts I noticed that they seemed tighter than one would think 'normal',
at the time I chalked it up to excess thread lock, but in retrospect I can see it was the bolt dragging on the mount due to the misalignment.

It seems as though the front engine mount holes are in the right place on the engine, that is to say
in the center of their casting locations. I really am at a loss as to explain what part of the manufacturing process went wrong to allow this to happen.

I had thought originally of just hogging out the mounting holes on the bracket to allow them to align, and then filling in the space with JB weld or some type of aluminum shim so the bolt would not be able to move inside the larger hole.

It seems now that is my only realistic alternative, because the bolts will not thread in any other way that I can see.

Offline lather

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2011, 05:32:59 AM »
Have you attempted the engine installation procedure yet or did you decide that that will not help?
If you have not yet tried it, that seems worth a try before hogging out. Are you able to see wether the crankcase to swingarm clearances are zero?
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Offline vortex2

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2011, 06:27:34 AM »
I took apart the upper rear motor mount so I could see how the 'adjustment collar' works.
Unfortunately, the whole procedure is irrelevant to the problem.

I could take the whole engine out and put it back and it won't change anything.

To me the most telling thing is that there is nothing in the manual to address this in any way,
which tells me that this is NOT supposed to happen under any normal circumstance.

Offline lather

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2011, 08:02:20 AM »
Running out of ideas so just thinking "outloud". As I mentioned I removed both y shape brackets both times I adjusted valves, firts at 20,000 miles. THat time I did so in error. Discovered my mistake when I saw Fred's vid where he struggled to get a torque wrench on the valve cover bolts. I saw the left bracket was in place and causing  the access problems. I had no such problems with the left bracket out of the way.

When I first realized the manual does not call for removing the left bracket I was worried about inadequate support of the frame and in fact the left lower bolt did not want to thread. I could not SEE a misalignment but the threads just did not want to hook up. I managed by loosening or removing the two top bolts.

Some time after doing that 20,000 mile adjustment the two lower bolts fell out. I still cannot imagine how this could have happened but I now have to consider the alignment problem as a possiblity. Did I strip the threads?

SEcond adjustment at 55,000 I again removed both brackets, remembering it made working on the valve cover a lot easier and figuring it couldn't hurt since the bottoms were not even connected anyway!. I have put about 4000 miles since then and I think I will pull some plastic and have a look.

One more suggestion: have you tried jacking up the front end? By the wheel, not the motor. With and without the right lower bracket bolt in place.
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Offline vortex2

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2011, 08:47:50 AM »
I put a long extension under the left side front bracket and jacked up the whole bike without altering the hole alignment at all. As far as I can see, the only way would be to strap the engine to the floor and then jack up the front of the bike.

Somewhat difficult to do in practice.

I agree about torquing the valve cover bolts. I made a special socket in order to get enough
clearance between the frame and the bolts.

I love it when engineers give us sooooooooo much room to work on things.

Offline C1xRider

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2011, 10:42:55 AM »
It was straight by "kawi" standards....???

Exactly my point.  Thanks   ;)

When I was re-torqueing the upper mount bolts on mine to try to reduce some of the vibrations, the right side top front bolt still felt really tight after loosening a half a turn.  I was hoping it was caused by excessive thread locking agent, as the other 3 didn't do this, but my gut told me something else was binding.  I figured it would be from damaged threads, but now I'm wondering if it was the bolt binding on the side of the bracket hole. 

It doesn't help with your problem, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Front engine mount bracket doesn't line up
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2011, 11:12:48 AM »
If there are holes located outside of tolerance (and it sounds like there is or are on your bike), then given the components involved I would assume it is the frame that is 'off'. The engine is made up of highly precise parts that are stacked (assembled) and it would be highly unlikely that any part used could be off by enough to cause your problem. The frame on the other hand is quite large and would involve being machined in many different chuckings and / or fixtures, all located from datum points on that frame. Something simple like a chip from previous machining between a datum point and the frame could cause a hole to be miss- located without it being obvious. Of course we are just talking here because no matter which component(s) are actually wrong they would be expensive and involve a LOT of labor to change. Unfortunately these things do happen and apparently it is not causing any problem on your bike other than the present difficult in reassembly. That is why I suggest just slotting the bottom hole slightly and reinstalling it.

As far as the JB Weld goes, I would not bother. The bolt will not be loose in the hole because the hole is too big anyway; the frame / engine relationship will place the bolt near the edge of the hole when it is assembled. JB Weld will not provide any additional strength as it will just be forced away from under the head of the bolt when it is tensioned. I would suggest using a washer under the bolt head, as thick as you can find, to spread the force of the bolt head out on the bracket and just install the bracket that way.

Of course this is never desirable but it does happen now and then on mass produced products. There have been a handful of reports of various frame bolts, seemingly mostly battery cover bolts, being cross threaded on brand new bikes. As the owner of one of these products we would be a bit cranky about it but in practical terms the best thing to do is deal with the issue and move on assuming it can be done reasonably well and leave the bike structurally sound. Unless of course the issue is a chronic problem on a particular model at which time the mfg. should make a correction available (like Honda did by repairing defective Gold Wing frames).

Best of luck getting that bracket fitted correctly.

Brian


Thanks Brian and others who have weighed in.

I don't anticipate that Kawi would turn this into a warranty issue, although a case could be made for something being defective. As far as owner error or misuse, the manual does not say anything about the removal of the engine mounts except to support the engine and unbolt them.
The reassembly procedure is very straight forward and makes no mention of the possibility of the holes being misaligned or how to correct such a situation.

When I originally pulled the bolts I noticed that they seemed tighter than one would think 'normal',
at the time I chalked it up to excess thread lock, but in retrospect I can see it was the bolt dragging on the mount due to the misalignment.

It seems as though the front engine mount holes are in the right place on the engine, that is to say
in the center of their casting locations. I really am at a loss as to explain what part of the manufacturing process went wrong to allow this to happen.

I had thought originally of just hogging out the mounting holes on the bracket to allow them to align, and then filling in the space with JB weld or some type of aluminum shim so the bolt would not be able to move inside the larger hole.

It seems now that is my only realistic alternative, because the bolts will not thread in any other way that I can see.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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