H4 LED Fitment

[VirginiaJim]

Hmm... well, I don't eat meat and I don't drink alcohol.  Would you work for chocolate?

No, just beer and steak.  Plenty of restaurants around where you live.

[maxtog]

[...]Please note that the beam pattern is wrong, since I had the bulbs adjusted accidentally for left hand drive and will need to fix that.  I noted as such on the photos.  I also did not have time to properly aim/align the two headlights to each other (up/down).

So I pulled them out and rotated them the other direction, to 6.5, which is on the OTHER SIDE of 7.  The result?  It is even worse than before.  It continues to blind all oncoming traffic with a kick that is on the left and extends into the center and the pattern is pretty whacked.  I am completely baffled (and pissed).  Adjustment means having to unplug them, unscrew the heatsinks (with a zillion threads), then removing the boot, then removing the retainer clip, then the bulb, then getting seatsink grease on fingers, then using an allen key to loosen and then retighten two tiny bolts on each bulb, and doing it all in reverse again to re-install.

I think I will have to unplug one bulb and experiment on the other without the heatsink, risking overheating, but that way I can try a bunch of settings and leave the ring unbolted so I can turn it while watching what happens.

UPDATE:  The correct neutral position is "8", NOT "7".  When I did this, it corrected the horrible looking pattern you will see in the photo, below.

[mikeyw64]

So I pulled them out and rotated them the other direction, to 6.5, which is on the OTHER SIDE of 7.  The result?  It is even worse than before.  It continues to blind all oncoming traffic with a kick that is on the left and extends into the center and the pattern is pretty whacked.  I am completely baffled (and pissed).  Adjustment means having to unplug them, unscrew the heatsinks (with a zillion threads), then removing the boot, then removing the retainer clip, then the bulb, then getting seatsink grease on fingers, then using an allen key to loosen and then retighten two tiny bolts on each bulb, and doing it all in reverse again to re-install.

I think I will have to unplug one bulb and experiment on the other without the heatsink, risking overheating, but that way I can try a bunch of settings and leave the ring unbolted so I can turn it while watching what happens.

you're in the US aren't you ? In which case the kick should be to the right to illuminate street signs


Surely that kick is more a function of the reflector?

6.5 is pretty damned near neutral

What  does the beam pattern look like with a standard halogen bulb in there?

[mikeyw64]

actually the more I think about it the more I think the rotating function is a gimmick.

A standard halogen H4 is not left or right handed.(ie a US sourced bulb should work equally well in a UK or US bike  or vice versa)

The "shield" is in a flat horizontal position and isn't offset

[B.D.F.]

There is no standard but generally, the cut- off line is flat from just right on center all the way across the left side (oncomming traffic side here). The right sometimes just sweeps up at a slight angle of, say, 6 or 8 degrees or so, or in projector lights kicks up for a very short section, again to the right of center, at maybe 20 degrees for a short distance and then goes horizontal but at a higher level than the cut- off on the left. These are often called "Z" type cut- off lines. Of course in a projector headlight, the cut- off is caused by a metal blocking plate so the cut- off line and the optics (reflector and lens) are not in any way coupled. The same projectors can be used in the UK, Japan and other RHD countries just by flipping the blocking plate around 180 degrees.

Brian

you're in the US aren't you ? In which case the kick should be to the right to illuminate street signs


Surely that kick is more a function of the reflector?

6.5 is pretty damned near neutral

What  does the beam pattern look like with a standard halogen bulb in there?

[maxtog]

you're in the US aren't you ? In which case the kick should be to the right to illuminate street signs

Exactly.

Surely that kick is more a function of the reflector?

Nope.  I have photos that show no kick at all with HID and halogen bulbs in my C14.

6.5 is pretty damned near neutral

Yes, it is supposed to be.  You can see why I am very unhappy right now.

UPDATE:  "8" is neutral

[mikeyw64]

Nope.  I have photos that show no kick at all with HID and halogen bulbs in my C14.

hmmm confused.

I would have thought that the reflector design would be the prime driver for the beam pattern with the position of the light source being secondary.

[B.D.F.]

I do not think so: I believe Kawasaki (and probably most others) use the same reflector bucket for RHD and LHD countries. The filament shield on a std. H4 low beam filament does wrap around the filament so about 180 degrees of light is shielded so slightly rotating the lamp in the housing would move the cut- off away from horizotal and you could put the higher side on either side of the bike by which direction it was rotated. All of which would lead me to believe they do use the same headlight buckets and just rotate the lamp mount (Boys!) for the country the bike will be used in.

The beam pattern on my C-14 is higher on the right but there is no step or anything, it is just a bit biased that way. So they could be simply rotating the lamp by the timing of the flange locating tab slots. ??

It is probably worth designing a different reflector bucket for most autos where they will be making millions for each type (RHD, LHD) but with sport touring motorcycles, the market is so small that it would be difficult to recover the design and tooling costs. Which is why the C-14 has a relatively small fuel tank: it is the one they were already tooled up to make for the ZX 14 and designing and tooling for an entirely new one would be expensive.

Brian

hmmm confused.

I would have thought that the reflector design would be the prime driver for the beam pattern with the position of the light source being secondary.

[mikeyw64]

Hmm

Well the part numbers (& prices) are different but as you say that could be iether because the socket at the back is biased slightly differently or because the refelctor is different.

US 23007-0108

UK 23007-0090

On a related note the first couple of years of the Blackbirds the headlights were left & right handed (you could see a flat section on the left or right side of the dip beam reflector)

They then switched to a flat pattern that was universal.

I dont have any pics to hand(have had both) but the earlier ones  showed the same clear kick up to the left I see on my GTR whilst the later ones there was no kick either way.

Based on that it appears to me that the reflector does do the cut off, but thats just my considered opinion, other opinions are always available

I do not think so: I believe Kawasaki (and probably most others) use the same reflector bucket for RHD and LHD countries. The filament shield on a std. H4 low beam filament does wrap around the filament so about 180 degrees of light is shielded so slightly rotating the lamp in the housing would move the cut- off away from horizotal and you could put the higher side on either side of the bike by which direction it was rotated. All of which would lead me to believe they do use the same headlight buckets and just rotate the lamp mount (Boys!) for the country the bike will be used in.

The beam pattern on my C-14 is higher on the right but there is no step or anything, it is just a bit biased that way. So they could be simply rotating the lamp by the timing of the flange locating tab slots. ??

It is probably worth designing a different reflector bucket for most autos where they will be making millions for each type (RHD, LHD) but with sport touring motorcycles, the market is so small that it would be difficult to recover the design and tooling costs. Which is why the C-14 has a relatively small fuel tank: it is the one they were already tooled up to make for the ZX 14 and designing and tooling for an entirely new one would be expensive.

Brian

[B.D.F.]

Well, I can snap a photo of my reflector, you can compare my reflector to your reflector (and no, I am not using 'reflector' as any kind of euphemism) and we can probably figure out if the reflector buckets are indeed different or not. That is after I find my headlight reflectors.... I think they are stored in the barn but am not sure. Of course I know where the ones in the bike are but I have another set that have been removed from the headlight ass'y that will make a better photo.

Brian

Hmm

Well the part numbers (& prices) are different but as you say that could be iether because the socket at the back is biased slightly differently or because the refelctor is different.

US 23007-0108

UK 23007-0090

On a related note the first couple of years of the Blackbirds the headlights were left & right handed (you could see a flat section on the left or right side of the dip beam reflector)

They then switched to a flat pattern that was universal.

I dont have any pics to hand(have had both) but the earlier ones  showed the same clear kick up to the left I see on my GTR whilst the later ones there was no kick either way.

Based on that it appears to me that the reflector does do the cut off, but thats just my considered opinion, other opinions are always available

[mikeyw64]

Sorry for not answering, stuffing face with curry & beer

Ok this is my Left hand (as you look at the bike) reflector.

From what I can see the key aea that may make a difference is the position of the cut out and shaped area to the left (ie the outside) of the bowl

(RH side is identical layout)




Full size image
http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/GTR/reflector.jpg

Well, I can snap a photo of my reflector, you can compare my reflector to your reflector (and no, I am not using 'reflector' as any kind of euphemism) and we can probably figure out if the reflector buckets are indeed different or not. That is after I find my headlight reflectors.... I think they are stored in the barn but am not sure. Of course I know where the ones in the bike are but I have another set that have been removed from the headlight ass'y that will make a better photo.

Brian

[mikeyw64]

Interestingly just found a picture of a Chinese replacement headlight and that has one reflector with the cutoff on the left and one on the right


http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dLYAAOSwa~BYUZo4/s-l1600.jpg

Compare with mine


http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/GTR/headlight.jpg

[mikeyw64]

In fact looking at that chinese headlight again the side sections don't have the same very distinct  almost 45 deg cutoff mine does. Wonder if its more like the US item and produces a flatter cut off ?

[maxtog]

Interestingly just found a picture of a Chinese replacement headlight and that has one reflector with the cutoff on the left and one on the right

In fact looking at that chinese headlight again the side sections don't have the same very distinct  almost 45 deg cutoff mine does. Wonder if its more like the US item and produces a flatter cut off ?

I (for one) am not sure what you are talking about   I don't see the difference.  But I am pretty sure the majority of the "cuffoff" is done by the shield in the low-beam of the H4 bulb.

Whenever I get the time (yeesh), I will be experimenting and free-rotating the LED bulbs while watching and will know a lot more about what is happening.  Might also compare to the old halogen bulb too.

[mikeyw64]

I (for one) am not sure what you are talking about   I don't see the difference.  But I am pretty sure the majority of the "cuffoff" is done by the shield in the low-beam of the H4 bulb.

Here we go I've highlighted it for you.

Chinese headlight


Compared to mine (only one side shown as the full one didnt show it clearly, both my buckets have the cut off to the left side of the bulb as you look at it), the chinese one is less angled and has one on each side. Now we may well both be right.

On a RHD bike (eg UK) then the reflector design is the primary producer.

On a LHD bike (eg US) if the reflector is the same as the CHinese made unit then IMHO the difference in shape of those areas would produce a flatter beam without a kickup to the left hand side and in that situation maybe the shield does make a difference.

That said I wasn't aware the standard H4 bulbs were different for different markets, I thought the shield was always horizontal and not rotated left or right

[mikeyw64]

Thinking about it logically for the moment if your reflectors are the same layout as that Chinese headlight you may need to rotate the bulbs differently (or just put them both at the #7 neutral position.)

Looking towards the bike I would suggest the LH light needs to be in the UK-RHD#8 position and the RH light in the US-LHD#6 position for optimal performance.

You have to remember a reflector works by flipping the "image" around both the horizontal & vertical axis (ie whatevers on the top is at the bottom loooking forwards and whatevers on the left (looking from the front of the bike) is on the left  looking forwards.


This is also why when taking a UK vehicle over to Europe we have to use beam adaptors to cut off the normal (for us) kick up to the left hand side (ie to illuminate street signs) and this is typically achieved by adding tape to the middle just below centreline of the headlamp at the left side (looking towards the bike/car) pf the headamp, ie cutting out the kink highlighted in my own headlight pic.

NOTE, The tape method is a workaround, proper beam adaptors are actually small fresnel lenses that stick in the same position and also move the cut off slightly



Example of tape method ona car, NB many manufacturers etch small marks to assist with positioning, on others its a bit more trial & error

[maxtog]

Thinking about it logically for the moment if your reflectors are the same layout as that Chinese headlight you may need to rotate the bulbs differently (or just put them both at the #7 neutral position.)

Looking towards the bike I would suggest the LH light needs to be in the UK-RHD#8 position and the RH light in the US-LHD#6 position for optimal performance.

At this point you are re-hashing what I already said.  I tried both sides of 7 (7.5 and 6.5) and both ways I am getting a beam pattern with a kick on the left both ways which is not what I should have.  At 7.5 it was a so-so pattern with a wrong-for-me left kick.  At 6.5 it is a very poor pattern (no clean cutoff) and a wrong-for-me left kick.  With the HID and halogen bulbs I get no kick at all.

When I get a chance I will be trying every position in a slow rotational sweep to see what is happening.  My current theory is that these reflectors are extremely sensitive to rotation and can only form reasonable patterns with certain, exact positions.

UPDATED IN LATER POSTINGS WITH SOLUTION, SEE BELOW

[VirginiaJim]

Hmmm, haven't had any issues with the normal H4s...

[mikeyw64]

At this point you are re-hashing what I already said.  I tried both sides of 7 (7.5 and 6.5) and both ways I am getting a beam pattern with a kick on the left both ways which is not what I should have.  At 7.5 it was a decent pattern with a wrong-for-me left kick.  At 6.5 it is a poor pattern (no clean cutoff) and a wrong-for-me left kick.  With the HID and halogen bulbs I get no kick at all.

When I get a chance I will be trying every position in a slow rotational sweep to see what is happening.  My current theory is that these reflectors are extremely sensitive to rotation and can only form reasonable patterns with certain, exact positions.

We may both be right.

Does your reflector show the same pattern on it as that chinese one?

Ie does it have the cut out areas on the outside of both reflectors?


If it does then you may need to set each side differently

"Looking towards the bike I would suggest the LH light needs to be in the UK-RHD#8 position and the RH light in the US-LHD#6 position for optimal performance."

Can you take a close up pic of the reflector s?

[maxtog]

[...]"Looking towards the bike I would suggest the LH light needs to be in the UK-RHD#8 position and the RH light in the US-LHD#6 position for optimal performance."

Sorry, I misread what you said earlier (probably because I should have been asleep).  No, it is impossible that it would be need to set differently between the two headlights/reflectors (left and right).  We can't do that on H4 halogen bulbs nor HID bulbs and there is no kick on either of those.  No other bulbs have rotation adjustment (that I know of).  The LED bulbs will need to match what the other bulbs do if they expect to match the same pattern (which is my goal.... I don't even want a kick, and if there is one, it needs to be small and on the correct side).