Author Topic: H4 LED Fitment  (Read 20002 times)

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2017, 09:39:37 AM »
Six or Eight LEDs would only be used for high beam; four are used for low beam to best match the position and size of the original H4 filament and at this point, that is not exceeding a standard H4 halogen lamp, which is 1,000 lumens. And high output halogen lamps produce more light on both high and low beam.

As far as LEDs being 'better' than HIDs regarding light pattern, there is no reason to believe that is the case. Again, the HID is positioned so that the arc duplicates the low beam placement, and it is close to the original H4 filament (slightly smaller, which would yield a tighter light pattern) so the basic light pattern is extremely close to the H4 lamp pattern. And there is no reason to believe any method of light generation (filament, LED or arc) would matter as long as it was the right size, in the right position w/in the reflector bucket and the low beam element(s) was properly shielded.

HIDs do suffer from one condition which is reflector overload. There is just so much light that stray light, the light not in the desired place or pattern, is increased. But high output halogen lamps suffer from the same problem; it is not due to the type of light, it is simply due to much, much more light than the reflector was designed to produce.

Brian


<snip>

Assuming the aftermarkets are not overdriving the chips, the typical luminous flux at 6500K appears to be about 245 per chip.  The Philips bulbs use 6 chips =  1470, and the aftermarket uses 8 = 1960.   Those would be the most optimistic numbers I would believe without further information.   And is all that light actually available?  Not sure.  But I could believe these aftermarkets might be twice as bright as a typical halogen.  But as bright as HID?  I think not.

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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2017, 12:24:05 PM »
The scene


Dip/Lo


Main/Hi (hmm got a bit shakey there, soz)
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2017, 01:50:36 PM »
Excellent, thanks!

Nice, sharp cut-off line. Looks like a very high quality system.

Brian

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Main/Hi (hmm got a bit shakey there, soz)

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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2017, 02:04:02 PM »
Excellent, thanks!

Nice, sharp cut-off line. Looks like a very high quality system.

Brian

Cheers

Think on balance its fair to say that in terms of combined  performance, cost,ease of install it has to be a good bang for the buck. Only outstanding question is longevity. IIRC they claim 50k hours which at 3 hours per day works out at 695 days
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2017, 03:12:52 PM »
I think 50,000 hours, used at 3 hours per day, will last 16,666.6 days or just over 45.5 years.

Even used continuously, on all the time, they should last over 2,080 days or ~5.7 years.

Unless "k" does not mean 1,000 units in the UK. ???

Brian

Cheers

Think on balance its fair to say that in terms of combined  performance, cost,ease of install it has to be a good bang for the buck. Only outstanding question is longevity. IIRC they claim 50k hours which at 3 hours per day works out at 695 days
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2017, 03:16:03 PM »
I think 50,000 hours, used at 3 hours per day, will last 16,666.6 days or just over 45.5 years.

Even used continuously, on all the time, they should last over 2,080 days or ~5.7 years.

Unless "k" does not mean 1,000 units in the UK. ???

Brian

Ok so my math is off tonight  :doh: :doh:

Wanders off to open another beer, cheers
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Offline maxtog

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2017, 03:19:40 PM »
Six or Eight LEDs would only be used for high beam; four are used for low beam to best match the position and size of the original H4 filament and at this point, that is not exceeding a standard H4 halogen lamp, which is 1,000 lumens.

My understanding is there are 6 (Philips) or 8 (non-Phillips) ZES chips per side.  In low beam, it will use the 3 or 4 that are shielded, closest to the tip of the bulb, on both sides (which is 6 or 8 total chips being illuminated per bulb).  In high beam, it will use the 3 or 4 that are unshielded, closest to the base (which is 6 or 8 total chips being illuminated per bulb).  Is this not correct?  If correct, my calculations should be valid and we are talking about a lot more than 1,000 lumens for each bulb, on low or high beam (at least on the non-Phillips bulb).

Quote
As far as LEDs being 'better' than HIDs regarding light pattern, there is no reason to believe that is the case. Again, the HID is positioned so that the arc duplicates the low beam placement, and it is close to the original H4 filament (slightly smaller, which would yield a tighter light pattern) so the basic light pattern is extremely close to the H4 lamp pattern.

That is assuming that the sloppy, spring-loaded, pop-in/out electromagnet positioning system is working perfectly and has zero slop.  Mine doesn't.  In fact, the light patterns even jiggle with road disturbance.  If I remove the HID bulbs and shake them, they move around some and will sometimes not even return to the same position.  My left bulb actually droops a few millimeters in the actuator, and that is bound to change the pattern.  LED bulbs are more like halogen bulbs- the "filaments" are at an exact, fixed position and never have to move.  This is what I was referring to in my comparison.

Quote
And there is no reason to believe any method of light generation (filament, LED or arc) would matter as long as it was the right size, in the right position w/in the reflector bucket and the low beam element(s) was properly shielded.

Agreed.  It is all about positioning, amount of light, and light distribution that results in the ultimate pattern projected on the road.  The distribution for filament and arc might be better than LED, since they are 360 degree sources instead of two 180 degree sources separated by several mm (or however thick that sucker is).  I didn't put that in my comparison, and probably should.  Not sure if it matters though, just speculating.

Quote
HIDs do suffer from one condition which is reflector overload. There is just so much light that stray light, the light not in the desired place or pattern, is increased.

And I do have that issue on my HID system now.  I covered it pretty well in another thread a while ago (showed photos, described, etc).  Some of that is unavoidable when you put a lot of light in a reflector not designed to handle it.  The stray light levels might be acceptable at X lumens, but not at X*2 or X*3 lumens (it would need tighter tolerances/better design).

Quote
But high output halogen lamps suffer from the same problem; it is not due to the type of light, it is simply due to much, much more light than the reflector was designed to produce.

Agreed.  But HID kits don't have fixed light sources, they move.  And anything that can move can cause malpositioning for a variety of reasons.  That is why I said it is possible that HID can produce more glare than LED (or high output halogen); but it will depend on the kit, the age, the design, etc.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2017, 03:25:24 PM »
Only outstanding question is longevity. IIRC they claim 50k hours

One important thing you have to consider with LED life claims- the bulbs will get DIMMER over their life.  Most companies will use an industry standard like 70% of original illumination as the definition of when life is over.  So the bulbs often can last much, much longer than the claims.  But they are also not at peak performance when they are old but still within their normal life.

I am not sure if it is a straight line deterioration, though.  But if it was, then 50,000 hours at 2 hours a day is 68 years.  But at 34 years they will be only 85% of their original brightness.  If the claims were double inflated, then then could be a only 85% in 17 years.

The good news is that for most applications, those are such long periods that it won't matter much :)
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Offline maxtog

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2017, 09:16:25 PM »
I guess I will know a lot more in a few weeks.  I just ordered the "Cloudworks" version on USA Amazon.  Not happy with the color temp, but whatever, I am tired of analyzing it.  At $75, it is worth a try.  If nothing else, it might be entertaining...

 :nuts:
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2017, 11:35:14 PM »
I guess I will know a lot more in a few weeks.  I just ordered the "Cloudworks" version on USA Amazon.  Not happy with the color temp, but whatever, I am tired of analyzing it.  At $75, it is worth a try.  If nothing else, it might be entertaining...

 :nuts:

you just couldn't resist  :)


Its Ok a year or three and there will be more OEM at around the 6k mark as more vehicles adopt LED as standard ,  just consider it early adoption 8)
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2017, 11:38:35 PM »


Agreed.  But HID kits don't have fixed light sources, they move.  And anything that can move can cause malpositioning for a variety of reasons.  That is why I said it is possible that HID can produce more glare than LED (or high output halogen); but it will depend on the kit, the age, the design, etc.

H4 HID Kits don't have fixed light sources. H7 etc do however as they aren't instant on then realistically they are limited to Dip/lo only


 :P
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Offline maxtog

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2017, 11:54:40 AM »
Mine just arrived minutes ago.  Even the box looks identical to Mikey's.  Here are the unboxing photos:
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Offline maxtog

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2017, 11:55:35 AM »
continued...
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Offline maxtog

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2017, 11:57:00 AM »
continued.... (I am nothing if not thorough).

Note:  My adjustable tilt bulbs (scale of 1 to 13, with 7 being zero tilt) came set with a tilt of "6" from the box which is for left hand drive (US/CA/EU/most of the world).   I don't know if the vendor or factory set it, so it is a good idea to check it before installing (you will want "8" for RIGHT HAND DRIVE (UK/Japan- drive on left side of road) vehicles.   There are two allen bolts and an included wrench, just loosen them, rotate, and retighten both.   You know you have it backwards if the "kick up" in the pattern is on the side of opposing traffic.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 06:10:25 AM by maxtog »
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2017, 12:33:06 PM »
continued.... (I am nothing if not thorough).

Note:  These bulbs come set with a tilt of "6" from the factory.  That is for RIGHT HAND DRIVE (UK/Japan- drive on left side of road).  So you will need to adjust them to "8" for LEFT HAND DRIVE (US/CA/EU/most of the world- drive on right side of road).  There are two allen bolts and an included wrench, just loosen them, rotate, and retighten both.  The instructions are labeled backwards for some reason (they say "left hand reference", which I have never heard of).  If you are unsure or don't believe me, just compare to your standard USA H4 bulbs.

If I get 5 I might put them to 7 which is a neutral position which actually more closely matches the standard halogen
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 06:29:48 AM by mikeyw64 »
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Offline maxtog

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2017, 12:43:19 PM »
If I get 5 I might put them to 6 which is a neutral position which actually more closely matches the standard halogen

If you get 5 what? 

On these bulbs, the scale is 1 to 13, "7" is a zero degree tilt.  I measured by eye, and "8" does appear to be a bit more tilt than a standard halogen bulb tilt.  There is no way I can really measure this stuff.  I might settle on 7.5 or something.  Not sure yet.

UPDATE:  8 is neutral
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 08:55:31 PM by maxtog »
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Offline maxtog

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2017, 12:56:39 PM »
OK, here you go.  If ever you didn't believe me that specifications on most lights are pure marketing crap, this will prove it.  See the photo.  I have two meters, one measuring voltage, the other amps.  I powered the system with a lithium battery pack/jumper system.   I took four readings.  I included a pinout diagram for those also who want to test.

Bulb 1 high beam:  1.50A @ 12.20V = 18.30W
Bulb 1 low  beam:  1.49A @ 12.20V = 18.18W
Bulb 2 high beam:  1.51A @ 12.18V = 18.39W
Bulb 2 low beam:   1.50A @ 12.18V = 18.27W

The low and high beams are using a set of 8 identical LED chips at a time.  So the average is 18.29 Watts per bulb.  We now have a REAL number of power draw.  Keep in mind this is battery voltage, not alternator voltage, so the power draw COULD be different when installed on the bike, if they are regulating it differently in their magic box.  But I expect it to be similar.

Now look back at the label on the box... 160 Watts!!!   So please, someone explain to me how 18.29 Watts is 160 Watts?  Let me guess.... "Oh, we meant a pair and a pair LED's put out the halogen light equivalent of 160W!!"  Yeesh...

Anyway, think back to the listed wattages on the various listings I researched for these bulbs.... the claims were 35W, 40W, and 25W.  So even those are all bogus.  I plan on taking light intensity readings too...  so hang on.... :)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 10:22:33 AM by maxtog »
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Offline maxtog

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2017, 02:34:29 PM »
Up now, apparent peak brightness:

I covered the lenses on the bike with the same paper and then used a light meter app at various fixed distances to estimate the actually brightness of the three bulbs.  The results are not absolute but comparative (relative) numbers.  This is my conclusion:

Philips Xtreme halogen:  584
HID: 1200
LED: 650

So the LED is brighter than even the Philips Xtreme halogen, but only by about 11%.
The HID blows them both away, being 105% brighter than the Xtreme and 85% brighter than the LED.

Let there be no doubt that the time for LED has arrived.  It can easily compete with halogen bulbs of ANY type.

Please note this says NOTHING about total light emitted, only an estimate of the brightest spots.  It also says nothing about the light pattern or USABLE light on the road.  That will come later with road testing.  I CAN say that the high-beam pattern on the paper is far more robust and even with the LED and Xtreme bulbs than the HID.

And yes, these LEDs are way too blue for my taste.  But that was expected.  Unfortunately, the left HID bulb installation has the stock H4 connector buried where I can't get to it.  I have to start disassembling stuff.  I might not have time.  Will post comparison photos later.
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2017, 02:59:15 PM »
If you get 5 what? 

On these bulbs, the scale is 1 to 13, "7" is a zero degree tilt.  I measured by eye, and "8" does appear to be a bit more tilt than a standard halogen bulb tilt.  There is no way I can really measure this stuff.  I might settle on 7.5 or something.  Not sure yet.

5 minutes
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: H4 LED Fitment
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2017, 03:13:50 PM »
Yep, HIDs produce the most light and because they are <virtually> a full- sphere light output, really shine (yeah, I know) when used with projectors, as do tungsten lamps.

LEDs are the most efficient and longest- lived, and are of course getting better at light output all the time.

Unfortunately, the cheapest usable lighting is still a tungsten bulb in a reflector, just like 1910, so we are still getting a lot of that in production vehicles, especially the less expensive vehicles.

Right now, I think the best way to go may well be LEDs in reflectors but several of them rather than one or two per side. There are some LED head-lighted vehicles showing up now and that is what they are doing- using relatively small lights and housings but more of them with several dedicated to both low and high beams.

Brian

Up now, apparent peak brightness:

I covered the lenses on the bike with the same paper and then used a light meter app at various fixed distances to estimate the actually brightness of the three bulbs.  The results are not absolute but comparative (relative) numbers.  This is my conclusion:

Philips Xtreme halogen:  584
HID: 1200
LED: 650

<snip>

Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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