Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: Jet86 on May 12, 2011, 03:41:46 AM
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Well it happened, how unlucky can i be, i hydrolocked my bike and the forum went down the same day, i guess i had a little luck on my side as no major damage was done.
i was 20 miles from home and before i left i switched the petcock to prime and drove off, every so often i will ride on reserve or prime for 20 miles or so then switch back to on when i get to where I'm going, well i forgot to switch it back this time.
came out of the supper market and hit the start button and it turned over a few times then "CLICK" & Lock, it wasn't really loud but i knew immediately what it was and let off the switch quick, good thing i carry a small toolbox in the bag with basic tools, i just needed some shade, pushed the fat cow 2 blocks and found some, a 99 cent store was close by so i went and bought a towel to cover the Cylinder, pulled tank & plugs - unplugged the stick coils and moved the wires back so i wouldn't blow myself sky-hi, laid the towel over the plug holes and hit the starter button and she immediately turned over blowing out what seemed to be a pint of gas from the #1 Cylinder, and yeah even with that towel she spit in my face after partially blowing off the towel but i was happy she turned over, i cranked about 10sec then removed the towel and cranked another 10sec, let her rest 15min then gave 1 more good 15-20 second crank til i could not see anymore gas coming out, stuck her back together and drained the carb bowls and primed for 3sec then switched to on and she fired up, drove home and she ran just like always. i bet i wont ride with it on prime anymore.
the petcock is working like it should 6 months new from murph's.
TWO QUESTIONS
1. Can the bike hydrolock if I'm riding it?
2. Do i now have gas in my oil? i only rode home 20 miles and haven't started her since.
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I'm glad you got off easy.
1. It will not hydrolock while running unless you ride into a lake.
2. If it sat for more than a few minutes with fuel in a cylinder, you have fuel in your oil.
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Thanks i better change the oil then, i was in the store for at least 15min or more.
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you'll need to address why it hydro'ed, or it'll do it again. I'd suggest to get the petcock replaced, tank cleaned, carbs cleaned, and get some overflow tubes installed - just in case. with hydrolock and the connie, it's not an issue of "if" it's an issue of "when" - and the results range from contaminated oil to a bent connecting rod - HTH, Steve
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The petcock is about 6 months new from murph's and working fine, thats the first thing i checked when i pulled the tank, it's a Tank + carb issue = stuck float/needle, I wont have any money for at least 2 months' so after the oil change she will sit for awhile.
btw would you happen to have a clean used tank for sale? i think i read you said you had one for sale but not sure if you sold it or not.
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The petcock is fine right...since it was on prime...it did what it was supposed to do? The failure was with a carb needle or float and of course, no overflow tubes?
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The petcock is fine right...since it was on prime...it did what it was supposed to do? The failure was with a carb needle or float and of course, no overflow tubes?
Nice catch! He did say that in the OP, I just missed it :-[ .
I'd like to add that it has been said that hydrolocks are the result of 2 failures, the petcock and a float needle. I'm modifying my position on that, after having done literally dozens and dozens of carbs at this point. I think that the floats apply such light seat pressure to the needles that the head pressure from a reasonably full tank of fuel could overcome a needle with a soft spring and cause it to seep, resulting in hydrolock. HTH, Steve
bTW, I do have a very nice tank - email or PM if interested - steve
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And i keep my tank full most of the time, and it was my fault for leaving it on prime when i new full well the carbs has been needing attention for a long time now, i think they needed rebuilt since the day i bought it 3 years ago but it has only been the this last 3 months they getting really bad, once the bike is good and warm and i shut it off for 15min then try to start it it backfires out the exhaust, and while im cranking i can hear whats seems to be a slight knocking in the head, i think that knocking is mini hydrolocks.
PM on it's way
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You were lucky, but check piston height to make sure.
D.
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I did the same thing. I left the petcock on prime after pulling the tank, and my float valve failed in #4. There was gas under the carbs, but I was foolish enough to keep trying to start it, tho. I had a HUGE backfire, and now the #4 piston is about 3/8 lower than #1, and it won't crank past that point, so I've got a bent rod. Now it's my parts bike!
I have sent a set of carb bowls to Steve in S Florida for the overflow tube treatment. I think it's $70 well spent, especially for newbies like me. Or you could install them yourself. There *used to be* a post around here.... : )
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I think that the floats apply such light seat pressure to the needles that the head pressure from a reasonably full tank of fuel could overcome a needle with a soft spring and cause it to seep, resulting in hydrolock.
Lets run the numbers...
I'm not near a bike, but I'll guess around 12" from top of the tank to the float needle. I'll show the formulas so you can calc it yourself within 0.1mm if you want :)
pressure head = (specific weight) * height
specific weight ~= 0.026 lb/in^3 (wikipedia and others)
pressure head = 0.026lb/in^3 * 12in = 0.312 lb/in^2 or ~0.3PSI
In a thread on the old boards it was said the seat is about 2mm in diameter, 1mm or 0.04" radius (about 39.4 mils). So,
area = pi * (radius)^2 = 3.14 * (0.04)^2 = 0.005 sq in
force = pressure * area = 0.3 * 0.005 = 0.0015lbs or 0.02 ounces.
Unless I've goofed the math, I don't think so.
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I'd like to add that it has been said that hydrolocks are the result of 2 failures, the petcock and a float needle.
I'd like to add two more reasons that Connies seem to hydrolock, that Steve may have overlooked with his years of experience : First is riders leaving the petcock on Prime, bypassing the vacuum on the petcock, allowing fuel to press on the needle valves. Sure, everyone should keep the petcock on ON, not prime, but some riders (like me) might not know that.
A second, worse, less forgivable mistake ignorant riders (like me!) make is to try to start the bike after the needle valves failed, and there's already gas in the cylinder. They see the pool of gas, and try to start it anyway. It's hard to believe that pressing that little red button on my sturdy bike could kill it, but it can. In my case, there was a huge backfire, and the bike was hydrolocked. Now I've got a carcus.
Certainly Steve knows his Sh*t, and you should listen to him. I'm just adding this for people that don't know nuthin, like me. And get Steve's overflow tubes installed! : )
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Just always remember, when you approach your bike, if you see gas on the ground or if you smell gas, check it out before you hit the starter button. You and your Concours can live a long and happy life with or without overflow tubes as long as you use your head.
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Just always remember, when you approach your bike, if you see gas on the ground or if you smell gas, check it out before you hit the starter button. You and your Concours can live a long and happy life with or without overflow tubes as long as you use your head.
That will work only if you smell gas. Many times you may not. It only takes a few seconds of leaving a manual petcock in the ON position or an automatic on Prime (or it failed in Prime) to have a Hydo-lock Occur. I never smelled gas when I almost hydro locked and I was in a garage. I even had a sign that said to tap the starter to make sure the engine is free but I kept forgetting to do that.
You may take your chances and possibly live a long happy life without over flow tubes but you will not be safe from Hydrolock at all and thinking you do not need over flow tubes is a mistake that could cost you your engine. Why take the chance? Get overflow tubes installed ASAP.
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That will work only if you smell gas. Many times you may not. It only takes a few seconds of leaving a manual petcock in the ON position or an automatic on Prime (or it failed in Prime) to have a Hydo-lock Occur. I never smelled gas when I almost hydro locked and I was in a garage. I even had a sign that said to tap the starter to make sure the engine is free but I kept forgetting to do that.
You may take your chances and possibly live a long happy life without over flow tubes but you will not be safe from Hydrolock at all and thinking you do not need over flow tubes is a mistake that could cost you your engine. Why take the chance? Get overflow tubes installed ASAP.
Well it's worked for me for over 500,000 miles. If I turn my petcock to prime my hand never leaves the petcock until I turn it back to on or reserve. Leaving the petcock on prime is the most dangerous thing you can do, and totally avoidable.
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It was a windy day, i didn't smell or see anything til after the fact, then i did see a small amount of gas coming from the air box but i still didn't smell it cause the gusty winds, Before i leave the house i walk around the bike looking for this sorta thing among others, every so often i move the petcock around and ride for a few miles to keep it working properly and from drying out, seen that tip from this forum or should i say the old forum, any way you put it it was still my fault for not hydro proofing the bowls or at least rebuilding the carbs but i cant do it where i live and money is hard to come by so i will just have to save up.
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Wait, haven't we proved the the petcock being on prime *and* a leaky float valve was the cause? Is it ok to run a leaky float valve for a while if the vacuum on the petcock is ok? Can't Jet86 simply change the oil and ride now? :o
I'm not implying that rebuilding the carbs is a bad thing, just wondering it's absolutely nesessary before riding it again. I'm a cheap bastard, and I'd rather ride than work on 'em, too.
I found a single carb rebuild kit on eBay for $27. That's about a tank of gas in CA, so if you can't afford that, you can't afford to ride anyway! ;D Ok, Ok, rebuilding all four carbs would be $108, and it'd be silly to pull the carbs and only rebuild one.
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Wait, haven't we proved the the petcock being on prime *and* a leaky float valve was the cause? Is it ok to run a leaky float valve for a while if the vacuum on the petcock is ok? Can't Jet86 simply change the oil and ride now? :o
I'm not implying that rebuilding the carbs is a bad thing, just wondering it's absolutely nesessary before riding it again. I'm a cheap bastard, and I'd rather ride than work on 'em, too.
I found a single carb rebuild kit on eBay for $27. That's about a tank of gas in CA, so if you can't afford that, you can't afford to ride anyway! ;D Ok, Ok, rebuilding all four carbs would be $108, and it'd be silly to pull the carbs and only rebuild one.
You can do this work yourself. Read up on MOB's carbbie article and do not take short cuts. Do install overflow tubes. Do NOT us K/L carb kits, there are issues with them, something like a float or float clip issue, and the needles are suspect, IIRC. Plus, it's K/L. (I'm assuming the ebay kits are K/L)
The issue that comes up is iff'n you're not a carb magician, identifying what's normal or what's not. Again, refer to MOB's write up. See if you're up for it.
Good Luck, signed, a happy customer.
Disclaimer: I know SiSF.
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Disclaimer: I read a lot, understand about half, and strip bolts every time I work on my bike... :). It's prolly best that I let others answer on hydrolock articles.
I was however able to dig up some articles in Google's cache of the old forums. Maybe this link can help locate the Man of Blues article? When you find the correct article in google, you'll need to click on "Cached" to see the actual article.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Site:concours.org++site:forum.concours.org+man+of+blues+carbs (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Site:concours.org++site:forum.concours.org+man+of+blues+carbs)
Hope this helps.
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If i had a garage or even a back yard i would have already fixed this issue long ago, i cant do this kind of work in my apartment and cant do it outside either, manager lives on site, i'm pretty sure i can keep on riding after i change the oil, after all i rode it home 20 miles after the lockup and it ran fine no power loss or anything, just don't put it on prime anymore and i should be ok "unless the petcock fails" my best bet is to get a clean tank or seal the one i have then send the carbies off to SiSF. i actully would feel better sending them to Steve then doing it myself, as i said though money is tight and will have to save a bit.
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Hook up a tube to all the drains, and flush it.
Might just get the crud keeping the float open to flush through and out the drain.
If you have a friend with a garage, you probably could do it yourself, but I thought so too, and it worked ok for me, but I should have sent them to Steve anyway, since he had them a week or so later because I was having other issues.
Ill say this, for those wanting to do the overflows themselves, AFTER I did mine, I found a MUCH better solution (it seems) than the JB Weld everyone was using, and better than the stuff I used (KBS coating) which seems ok, but not sure how long it will last.
Loc-Tite 660 Press Fit repair. From their literature:
LOCTITE® 660 is designed for the bonding of cylindrical fitting
parts, particularly where bond gaps can approach 0.50 mm
(0.02 in.).
From what I found, their testing resulted in no degradation of strength from inital to 1000hrs in:
Motor Oil
Unleaded Gasoline
Brake Fluid
Water/Glycol 50/50
Ethanol
Acetone
Thats fairly impressive, and should I ever have an issue, Ill be using that to reinstall the tubes. I dont feel real comfortable long term with my solution, but it will probably be fine.
FWIW, if you use a drill press, the correct size bit, and the correct size tube, it will be a very close fit anyway, but hand drilling can make matter much worse than this stuff can fix.
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yeah I'm gonna drain all 4 bowls and flush them tomorrow, today i changed the oil and filter - pulled the tank - plugs and did the Hydro Test, 2-3 was Even Stevens, 1-4 my eyes could be playing tricks on me but #4 was just a hair low, i measured them all multiple times but on 1-4 #4 kept coming up just a hair short, i don't know how a shop would do this but they might even have a hard time finding the true measurement. I have no other data to go on so it could have been like this for years for all i know, if my eyes wasn't playing tricks on me its so small of a hair i don't think its gonna hurt anything. i went for a 25 mile ride and it runs great, but still after she warms up then i try to start her after 15min she cranks for a bit then backfires and vroom ready to go, im guessing the float is still stuck and the heat expands the gas in carbs and maybe a drop or two gets into the cylinder? i don't know i'm guessing here. no backfires in the morning just your average cold blooded connie.
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You know, mine was like that too. #4 looked like it was shorter than #1. Not much at all, but it was there. I wonder if the valve cover wasnt quite level, as a compression test showed VERY little variation between all cylinders.
Mines not been hydrolocked, at least not by me anyway, and usually its #1 that takes the hit because of the sidestand, which is how mine sat most of its life according to the PO.
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You can do this work yourself. Read up on MOB's carbbie article and do not take short cuts. Do install overflow tubes. Do NOT us K/L carb kits, there are issues with them, something like a float or float clip issue, and the needles are suspect, IIRC. Plus, it's K/L. (I'm assuming the ebay kits are K/L)
The issue that comes up is iff'n you're not a carb magician, identifying what's normal or what's not. Again, refer to MOB's write up. See if you're up for it.
Good Luck, signed, a happy customer.
Disclaimer: I know SiSF.
I have no problem with the K&L carb kits, used a bunch of them, Steve has issues with the float needle clip spring, but I addressed this and we both agree if you "tweak it" to insure it isn't too tight on the float tang, it's fine...he prefers not to use that clip, and to each his own.
;) 8)
mdr,
you fogot to add something into all the facts and calculations you noted.....
expansion rate of gasoline, contained in a sealed (the pressure relief is not set to atmospheric pressure...it's higher by far) and the temperature at the time the tank is subject to....you may be surprised to see 5 psi on that fuel line, on a hot day, after turning the bike off after a moderate ride.
I see Bubba is coming around to my thinking on the seating pressures and such....thank you Steve, we have to believe with all the leaks we see, it is relevent. ;)
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I have owned my Connie since 1999 and have never until now heard of hydrolock. Reading all I can find about it I still don't see one thing: Will the bike run after a hydrolock event? I ask because I made the mistake of turning my petcock to prime and with gas in the oilpan it didn't run. Once I changed the oil it fired up and ran, but poorly at first. If the issue is hydrolock, will it run? Thanks to anyone who can give me a definite answer.
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Yes, it will probably run.
The piston height will have changed for one or more of the cylinders causing a loss in performance.
The bigger question is for how long it will run? The hydrolock event bent the rod which could be minor and it may run for many years, or it may have stressed the material such that it may fail at a later date.
You need to measure your piston heights per SISF's video on YouTube and see how bad the situation is.
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thats assuming it actually bent. that's not always the case but.... def do a piston height check.
the 1st experience i ever had with working on a C10 was my ex father in law hydrolocked his after a faulty petcock (back in.. 05 or 06 i think). we replaced the petcock, put in an inline cutoff, and checked piston height and it was fine for years afterwards till he sold it. But, if it were mine and the rod was bent it would be repair or sell off time. .02
My advice would be after the height check: do an oil change again. check airbox isn't flooded with fuel. then restart.
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Yupp... :goodpost:
Ride safe, Ted
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Good point. I was all doom and gloom. :doh:
I should have mentioned that a lot of times the dreaded event, is a non-event, in that the rods are not bent, and all is good in the world.
Also consider ordering a new petcock if you haven't ever replaced it. They have been known to fail, and are fairly easy to replace.
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I had a questionable situation where I should have been more careful to suspect hydrolock than I was. Petcock failed. Had gas back up thru the airbox on the side stand. Floats held tho, it seems. I shouldn't have started it - fire hazard at least, but I was away from home. No ill effects, but always wondered. Did a cylinder-height check last spring when I had it all apart, and it looks good.
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Gas cannot back up thru the airbox (overflow), unless the floats/needles allow gas flow.
Ride safe, Ted
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Thank you all for your responses. I'll definitely do the check per the video. I had already watched that but wondered if I needed to bother.