Author Topic: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification  (Read 32536 times)

Offline maxtog

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Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« on: August 23, 2015, 12:20:05 PM »
It is nothing new- you start to notice it getting harder and harder to turn the key to open the gas tank cap, eventually leading to bending the key.  http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=9179.30  I complained about this within the first year of buying my new 2011 (and I have seen others complaining too).

At first you think it is just the keyhole / keyway getting dry and decide to shoot some graphite in it.  And that might actually help some (especially with getting the key in and out).  http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10026.30

But eventually it just gets worse no matter what you do.  It no longer "springs back either".  So you take a look at the latching mechanism and discover something is not right and spray some graphite into that too.  And it seems to help... for a while.  But then a few months go by and it is worse than ever.  Then you take a CLOSER look at it again, and realize the whole thing is corroded to hell!  The two latches should move freely and with little effort when you press on them with your fingers... but those days are long gone.

So unless you want to replace the cap with a new/different one, you finally need to do what I just did- take the latch apart and see what is going on in there.  First thing is to open the cap and put some plastic wrap and then a towel over the tank.  This is to prevent the gas from evaporating, to prevent anything from falling into the tank, and to prevent loss of parts.  Then take a Philips screwdriver and remove the two screws on the bottom of the latch.

BE SLOW AND CAREFUL!  The latch assembly won't explode or anything, but it can come apart and dump parts.  But more importantly, there will be nothing left holding the rubbery part on the cap... and behind that are several tiny springs and valves and such (more on that later).  Just try not to disturb that at all.

Continued on next posting...
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2015, 12:33:32 PM »
In my case, when I opened the latch mechanism, I was horrified.  It was packed with white and black debris.  I think the white being aluminum oxide and the black being some type of altered graphite.  The metal was all pitted too.  It could just be corrosion from the ethanol (one theory that has been prevalent).  But another thought is that the latch plate seems to be made from steel.  The multiple metals could also be causing an electrolysis reaction.  (See first two pictures on this posting).

However it is happening, it needs fixing.  First I dumped the parts (the latch cover, two latches, the spring, and two screws) into a small bucket with warm water and dishwashing soap.  Used an old toothbrush to scrub out everything.  The resulting water ended up completely black.  Dried off the parts and then used a spinning wire brush on a Dremel tool to try and polish off the parts.  This was only mildly successful.  The metal pitting was pretty bad, and I didn't want to use heavier tools for fear of creating too much wear.  It will have to do (see third picture).

At this point it could be reassembled and placed back on the bike, but I decided to perform the Fred Harmon "gascapmod" first  http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/image/84241606

Continued on next posting
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline maxtog

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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2015, 12:42:53 PM »
Fred discovered that if he widened the notches in the latches, one could then remove the key from the cap lock while the cap was still open.  Presumably the cap was designed intentionally with this built-in "safety" measure to prevent someone from riding off, forgetting to close the cap.  The problem is that the design is annoying.

Mark off 4mm from the existing slots (see first photo on this posting).  Then mount the latch in a vice and use a file to remove the material you marked, making the new part of the notch the same depth as the original.  My file was too wide to use on the long side and too narrow on the short side.  I used the short side to start the notch (see the second photo), and then finished it off using the file in a different direction.  Thankfully the metal is fairly soft so although you will get a bit of a workout, your arm will not fall off.  Took about 4 min of filing per latch.  See the third photo for a comparison of the before (top) and after (bottom).

Continued on next posting
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline maxtog

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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2015, 12:55:47 PM »
If you performed the mod or not, you need to reassemble the latch (see the photo for an example WITH the mod).  Normally I would coat the parts an a little graphite.  The problem in this case is that with such severe corrosion, I felt that graphite would not offer any protection from the process continuing.  So I decided to use a thin coat of white lithium grease instead.  I covered all the surfaces.

Now for the tricky part- getting the spring back in place.... and depending on your skill and dexterity, this might take quite a few attempts (it certainly doesn't help matters having the parts slippery with grease, either).  The way I did it was to place one of the latches in the track first.  Then inserted the spring,  then placed the other latch where it would normally live, but on top of the spring.  Then I used a small, flat-bladed screwdriver the pull the spring back while pressing lightly on the non-seated latch (it make take two or three pulls back).  Once the spring is in place, the assembly is fairly stable and you can place the cover back on.  Of course, nothing holds that cover on until you use the screws to put it back on the cap.

And here is a continuation of my warning from a while ago.  With the latch off the cap, I tried turning the key to see how freely it moved.  It wasn't that great, so I decided to spray in some graphite around the core from the top and work it in.  That didn't help.  So I decided to remove the rubber cup from the bottom of the cap to see what I could do.  Eeek.  All the little springs fell out and so did a tear-drop looking piece of plastic (some type of valve and a round screen).  At least I could see the lock core and sprayed graphite around that, which did help some.  It is obvious where the springs go.  And the screen was easy.  But I could not figure out which way the teardrop valve goes- one side was flat and had a hole, the other had no hole but little pips.  The factory manual DOES NOT have *any* information about the tank cap at all.  I took a guess that the pips went toward the screen and put it all back together.

So far so good.  I needed to get gas right after all this, anyway.  It was nice to be able to easily open it again.  And even nicer to not having my key being held hostage while filling :)

I will report back on the long-term results of the "operation", especially to see how effective using white lithium is.  But although I know it is going to corrode again, it is now pretty easy to fix (and I won't let it get this bad again).
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline Racer Boy

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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2015, 01:20:37 PM »
Nice work! Especially modding it so you can remove the key.

I solved the problem by just getting one of the E-Bay gas caps.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fuel-GAS-CAP-gt-G-for-ZX6R-10R-14-Z800-Z1000-Z750-ER6N-ER-6F-GTR1400-Kawasaki-/161479165531?fits=Model%3AConcours+14&var=&hash=item2598e8865b&vxp=mtr

Yeah, it cost $35, but it took me about ten minutes to replace, and will never have the problems with the key being difficult to move in the first place. I'm not too worried about someone stealing my gas; has anyone ever had gas stolen from their bike?

Offline maxtog

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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2015, 01:40:48 PM »
Nice work!

Thanks

Quote
Especially modding it so you can remove the key.

That mod is 100% Fred Harmon's discovery.  But I am happy to say it works perfectly and pass it on to other fellow Concoursians.

Quote
I solved the problem by just getting one of the E-Bay gas caps. Yeah, it cost $35, but it took me about ten minutes to replace, and will never have the problems with the key being difficult to move in the first place. I'm not too worried about someone stealing my gas; has anyone ever had gas stolen from their bike?

I like the idea of a lock not because I am worried about someone stealing a few gallons of gas, but to prevent vandals from putting something in the gas (salt, sugar, water, whatever) which can cause MAJOR issues.  Plus, the venting control system is important, so I am somewhat less trusting of cheap caps.  Doesn't mean those won't work, or that the stock one can't fail, but there is a higher chance of something going wrong.

It is nice having choices!
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2015, 02:15:38 PM »
Thanks for posting that, Max.
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Offline gPink

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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2015, 02:25:03 PM »
That looks like salt water corrosion. Is this happening more to coasties than flatlanders?

Offline maxtog

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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2015, 02:39:32 PM »
That looks like salt water corrosion. Is this happening more to coasties than flatlanders?

I am fairly far from it, though- 6 miles from the bay and 13 miles from the ocean.  Plus, the tank is supposed to be fairly air-proof (it allows venting, of course, but only a tiny amount of air goes through it).  I suppose it can't help the situation, but I think there is much more significance with the ethanol + electrolysis hypothesis.  Of course, one would then surmise that ALL C14 latches would be corroding the same- I doubt the gas here is all that different from anywhere else.  I suppose I could have caused it to accelerate by spraying graphite into the latches twice.  But I have never seen graphite contribute to such a mess... and it is very inert.  It is a mystery.

I just hope I didn't make a mistake by using lithium grease this time.  But if it was [a mistake], it won't be too difficult to reverse later.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline Racer Boy

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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2015, 02:40:36 PM »
That looks like salt water corrosion. Is this happening more to coasties than flatlanders?

I wondered the same thing. When I replaced my cap, I didn't disassemble it, but just eye-balling it I didn't see nearly the corrosion that maxtog's had.


Offline just gone

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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2015, 05:46:16 PM »
I think there is much more significance with the ethanol + electrolysis hypothesis. 

Sounds like a job for sailor_chic.

Say girl, we need to start buying zincs (or mags) for our tanks? (ya know, anodes 'n' such)


All in all a very good writeup max'. At the risk of sounding like one of the doom n gloomies I'm not sure about using lithium grease, or graphite
for that matter..I'd probably just use 2 stroke oil. Just seeing yours made me want to go out into the garage and check mine out, but it's laid up at the dealer.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2015, 06:19:17 PM »
That is some pretty heavy corrosion.

Besides the outside of the fuel cap that you see, there are another million parts or so internal (Boys!) to that assembly and I have to imagine that they do not look so good either (which reminds me of a Mexican donkey joke but no time for that now....). Just a thought but a whole new fuel cap is not that expensive and might be worth considering....



Even Kirby is amazed by all the little parts inside the fuel cap. Most of them are there to provide a seal as well as both positive and negative pressure vents. But altogether, it is one complex trinket considering a few years ago they were stamped steel with a rubber gasket.

Brian

It is nothing new- you start to notice it getting harder and harder to turn the key to open the gas tank cap, eventually leading to bending the key.  http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=9179.30  I complained about this within the first year of buying my new 2011 (and I have seen others complaining too).

At first you think it is just the keyhole / keyway getting dry and decide to shoot some graphite in it.  And that might actually help some (especially with getting the key in and out).  http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10026.30

<snip>

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2015, 06:51:42 PM »
Nice work! Especially modding it so you can remove the key.

I solved the problem by just getting one of the E-Bay gas caps.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fuel-GAS-CAP-gt-G-for-ZX6R-10R-14-Z800-Z1000-Z750-ER6N-ER-6F-GTR1400-Kawasaki-/161479165531?fits=Model%3AConcours+14&var=&hash=item2598e8865b&vxp=mtr

Yeah, it cost $35, but it took me about ten minutes to replace, and will never have the problems with the key being difficult to move in the first place. I'm not too worried about someone stealing my gas; has anyone ever had gas stolen from their bike?

that's weird, I can unlock my cap, and open it... and remove the key... benn doing it for nigh on 8 years now.,......

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Offline maxtog

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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2015, 09:27:30 PM »
that's weird, I can unlock my cap, and open it... and remove the key... benn doing it for nigh on 8 years now.,......

Well, it is not "supposed" to work that way with the stock cap.  So your brokenness has been a feature! :)
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2015, 09:29:54 PM »
Besides the outside of the fuel cap that you see, there are another million parts or so internal to that assembly

You are not kidding.  I couldn't believe how complex just a gas tank cap has become over the years.  And I don't know how they expect people to put them back together when it is not covered at all in the repair manual.

Quote
and I have to imagine that they do not look so good either

The little springs were all white too.  But most of the rest of the stuff is plastic and rubber- that all looks OK.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2015, 10:00:04 PM »
The springs being white indicates internal corrosion also. Again, not to spend any one else's money but I replaced my fuel cap ass'y and I think the entire OEM fuel cap is less than $100. The real problem is going to be if / when it fails to vent properly and you will end up with a fuel tank that looks like the Hulk gave it a squeeze. With new, F.I. bikes, the pump will continue to remove fuel LONG after a carburated system would have failed.... and when the vent does not work, the pressure differential (between the inside (low) and the outside (high)) is more than enough to crush the fuel tank. The new fuel cap is cheap compared to the cost of the new fuel cap.... and the new fuel tank.

https://www.google.com/search?q=crushed+motorcycle+fuel+tank&biw=1920&bih=1019&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMI-sOkjenAxwIVxXE-Ch00VwpW#imgrc=5uVAV42FaHdCQM%3A

I normally do not subscribe to the 'sky is falling' of the day schtick but this one can and <may> come around to bite a person. Although Japanese bikes are far less likely than their European brethren.... :-)

Brian

You are not kidding.  I couldn't believe how complex just a gas tank cap has become over the years.  And I don't know how they expect people to put them back together when it is not covered at all in the repair manual.

The little springs were all white too.  But most of the rest of the stuff is plastic and rubber- that all looks OK.
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Offline Conrad

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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2015, 04:34:17 AM »
that's weird, I can unlock my cap, and open it... and remove the key... benn doing it for nigh on 8 years now.,......

Mine is the same way. I unlock the cap and pull the key out while I fill 'er up. It won't lock without the key of course, not without the mod.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2015, 05:28:26 AM »
The real problem is going to be if / when it fails to vent properly

I was wondering that yesterday- is there some way to test that the vents are working properly?  I realize you are saying it could fail at any time without notice... but after servicing something it is a good idea to make sure things are working properly.  Again, it is something one would expect to see in a service manual, but the manual is 100% silent about the gas tank cap.
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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2015, 05:36:02 AM »
Sounds like a job for sailor_chic.

Say girl, we need to start buying zincs (or mags) for our tanks? (ya know, anodes 'n' such)


All in all a very good writeup max'. At the risk of sounding like one of the doom n gloomies I'm not sure about using lithium grease, or graphite
for that matter..I'd probably just use 2 stroke oil. Just seeing yours made me want to go out into the garage and check mine out, but it's laid up at the dealer.

Absolutely! Time for some cathodic protection. So if this is an electrolysis issue, which I doubt, what about adding a 3rd type of metal (brass)  to the latch. I have always been told that 3 dissimilar metals will stop this process.  IMO, I think that this is simple corrosion on some low grade cast aluminum, and is caused by moisture.  So how about using a gas additive and keep the tanks full all the time.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 08:09:30 AM by sailor_chic »

Offline maxtog

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Re: Gas Tank Cap / Latch Corrosion, Cleaning, and Modification
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2015, 05:46:53 AM »
I will report back on the long-term results of the "operation", especially to see how effective using white lithium is.  But although I know it is going to corrode again, it is now pretty easy to fix (and I won't let it get this bad again).

Not long-term yet, but so far, so good.   I have filled the tank twice since.  Both times it was easy as butter (why is butter easy?)  Heard the cap squealing, so I know I didn't screw up the escape vent.  And the tank hasn't crushed, so I know I didn't screw up the intake vent.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc