Author Topic: Schnitz Racing ECU flash  (Read 11490 times)

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2018, 11:23:46 AM »
Wot's all this about flame wars? First I am hearing of it.....

 :rotflmao:

Though of late things do seem to have been a lot better.

Back on the subject at hand, it is just a typical human condition that most of us tout a product we like and somehow or other, without a shred of evidence or real knowledge, proclaim one better than the rest or the others without ever having owned or even used any competitive products. Lots of people have different flashes but few seem to have had more than one, and far fewer yet have had all or even most of them. So the only factual thing that <most> users can say is that they like or dislike the flash they have and point out that particular ones' features and / or flaws. As I said, pretty typical human nature and we tend to do it with all products; I guess  my favorite is when someone has a problem with a given product, often times it seems to be a vehicle of some sort, he / she then goes on to proclaim ALL of the vehicles made by that company are deficient and further specify those deficiencies; for example, someone has a transmission failure on, say, a Buick and somehow ALL GM products are 'known' to have 'bad transmissions' or 'inferior transmissions compared to Brand X'. In the mass production world, I like to call it the 'one in a row' syndrome: set up a production line, tweak it for as long as it takes, make one acceptable product (part or an entire assembly such as a car), pronounce it good and hit the gigantic green GO button and run a million of them. :-)

Brian


.... That's how many of the typing flaming wars have started, especially on the other forum.

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Offline FIX UR CRITTER

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2018, 08:36:29 PM »
Hello Everyone

Wanted to give an update regarding the Schnitz ECU reflash.
I  noticed a difference right away, it seems more responsive right off of stop. The thing that kept coming to mind was that the bike seemed less restricted.
We rode for about 50 miles mostly highway .  I found myself riding faster and at a higher rpm than normal. I usually keep the bike between 4-5 k in 5th gear. That seems the smoothest for cruising with the wife on back. Today I was consistently in the  5500-6500k range in 4th gear and it felt as smooth. I found myself getting into triple digits without even trying.
 It felt as if  shifting was some how smoother.  Bottom line – it is definitely an improvement, worth $75. The real test will be my 1000 mile mountain trip next week.

One of the things that I wanted from the flash was to remove some of the subtle vibes in bars and seat.. This did not seem to help in that area.

I often feel that people exaggerate how great a product is. That is the feeling I got when people described Steve and Ivan’s flash. Kept hearing the words “day and night” difference etc. Well that is not what I experienced so I am still curious about Steve or Ivan’s. I am going to see if a used ECU from another bike can be flashed for my bike so I can compare them .

I am willing to admit that Steve, Ivan’s and Guhl  reflash may be “better” and have more development time behind them, but I am sure glad that people have an option that is 1/5 the cost. As someone else mentioned,  the competition will be good

Also tried the Kawi  touring seat today- very intrigued, will need some more back to back comparisons with my Russell DL.
But the touring is definitely better than stock for both rider and passenger regarding sliding forward and  we both noticed that it eats up bumps, making for a more comfortable ride.
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Offline Rubber_Snake

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2018, 09:55:30 PM »
You beat me to it.  I believe it is an R1200RT.   But, in fairness, it is a large, sport-tourer, so at least the physics are probably similar.
Doh!!
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Offline just gone

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2018, 11:35:10 PM »
Doh!!

Awww it's OK, we understand how it is. After you guys retire, all you can see is the uniform. The days of being a professional observer are gone. :salute:  :chugbeer:

Offline khager01

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2018, 08:13:07 AM »

I often feel that people exaggerate how great a product is. That is the feeling I got when people described Steve and Ivan’s flash. Kept hearing the words “day and night” difference etc. Well that is not what I experienced so I am still curious about Steve or Ivan’s. I am going to see if a used ECU from another bike can be flashed for my bike so I can compare them .


You can find a used engine ecu on flea-bay pretty cheap.  I think you would have to take it to a dealer or find someone with a KDS tool to program the KIPASS ecu to recognize it. 

Also the 2015-2018 may be different or at least the programming is different to recognize the O2 sensors, also fuel maps may be different between model years

Offline katata1100

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2018, 08:20:43 AM »
“ am willing to admit that Steve, Ivan’s and Guhl  reflash may be “better” and have more development time behind them, but I am sure glad that people have an option that is 1/5 the cost. As someone else mentioned,  the competition will be good”

Guhl will be no different than what you have. But, I think you’re seeing for yourself that all the gains you see are simply from opening the flies sooner. Without tweaks to timing and fuel, your ho/tq is still same as stock.
Steve’s tune will give 19hp more at peak. That , along with hp/tq  gains across the range, is something you can definitely feel. Eventually, you’ll get the urge to pony up more $ to get that power
that schnitz left on the table.

Offline just gone

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2018, 11:40:44 AM »
I often feel that people exaggerate how great a product is. That is the feeling I got when people described Steve and Ivan’s flash. Kept hearing the words “day and night” difference etc. Well that is not what I experienced so I am still curious about Steve or Ivan’s. I am going to see if a used ECU from another bike can be flashed for my bike so I can compare them .

I completely agree with that first sentence. Is there a night and day difference between a typical 250cc bike and a 1400cc bike? Yes there is. Is there a night and day difference between a stock c14 and one that makes more (what 19Hp?) power and runs smoother in the lower rpm range. Not in my opinion. Perhaps people need to stand out in the sun at noon and then return to the same spot at midnight to refresh themselves as to what a night and day difference really means. After the Guhl flash and all the rave reviews it was getting (back then), I was thinking about the story of the emperor's clothes after I had received mine. I wasn't even sure it had been really flashed. Now when I got the decel flash from SISF, it was instantly noticeable. Definitely an improvement, but night and day difference?...not in my opinion. Perhaps folks are confusing night and day difference from above the arctic circle with that below the arctic circle?

I still agree with the 50% (+/- 10-15%) performance gain for 20% of the cost, it isn't a bad investment. Not very noticeable to my insensitive a$$, but to each their own (a$$ sensitivity that is).

One of the things that I wanted from the flash was to remove some of the subtle vibes in bars and seat.. This did not seem to help in that area.

I'm not sure that can be fixed by a flash, maybe. I think some have re-torqued the engine mounting bolts to find relief in that area. Might be something to look into after your trip. I've never noticed it on mine, but then perhaps my a$$ insensitivity extends through up to my fingertips? My wife says I'm totally an insensitive a$$, but then she loves me, so she might be biased.

Offline maxtog

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2018, 04:22:20 PM »
But, I think you’re seeing for yourself that all the gains you see are simply from opening the flies sooner.

I will confident that it is not any actual increase in peak horse power that anyone will notice.  The gains are usually small on what is already a lot of horsepower, and few people ever go WOT at high-enough RPM, anyway to ever realize such power.  It is the delivery of the existing power and the *immediacy* thereof... the elimination of the lack of responsiveness, that is so shockingly noticeable after any flash that "fixes" the secondary flies (and thereby removing the restrictions imposed by fuel economy regulations, noise regulations, and emissions control; most of which Kawasaki MUST comply with; and perhaps they did a poor job at it in the process).  Everything else is a side-bonus..... and those side bonuses given by a GOOD and well-developed flash can be many and quite desirable, but still pale in comparison to the elephant in the room (the faster and more complete opening of the flies).

For this next part, I can only speak in speculation, but I *believe* the Guhl flash has little/few side-bonuses.  Of course I noticed and was thrilled by the elephant in the room; I doubt an extra 10 or 15 or even 20 peak horse power would matter much for me.  However, there are many places in the programming where it seems "rough", imprecise, overshoots, or is jerky (not smooth) or a little unpredictable.  Those are the things I am disappointed in (and noticed more after years of riding) and believe a flash like Steve's would probably address.  Putting on a Throttle Tamer did help, especially with the insanely oversensitive throttle at lower input and lower RPM.  But I think that only gave a partial solution and to only one of the things I noticed that aren't quite right.
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Offline katata1100

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2018, 04:29:33 PM »
Power at start is psychologically noticeable. That is one reason why some cars come from the factory with touchy fuel pedals- that burst off the line makes it seem faster. Some tuners will tune an off/on (not gradual) response off the line to make it feel quicker.
But the difference between Guhl (and likely schnitz) and Steves' is pretty noticeable. I live at 5000' alt and to me, riding with this tune, bike has same power as it did with Guhl at sea level.

Offline maxtog

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2018, 04:33:03 PM »
After the Guhl flash and all the rave reviews it was getting (back then), I was thinking about the story of the emperor's clothes after I had received mine. I wasn't even sure it had been really flashed.

For me, it [Guhl flash] was a huge change and I was sure it was there.  I wasn't expecting a "totally different bike" kind of experience, though.  But it immediately got rid of that horrible lag and "sag" in the performance curve at lower RPM that was driving me crazy.  I had the EXACT SAME issue with my ZRX-11- it felt the same way, until I installed a jet kit and WHAM, it was just linear after that.  So if you know what it is was that was annoying, and had reasonable expectations, it was extremely noticeable and a "huge" change, at least with my driving style.  If you have a different driving style or weren't bothered by the stock behavior to start with, it might be much less noticeable.

Quote
Now when I got the decel flash from SISF, it was instantly noticeable. Definitely an improvement, but night and day difference?...not in my opinion. Perhaps folks are confusing night and day difference from above the arctic circle with that below the arctic circle?

:)  Well, subjectivity always comes across with wild variations.  Kinda like explaining pain or how delicious something is.  I know for sure that lots of things that annoy me or drive me crazy don't phase many other people at all, and vice-versa.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2018, 04:48:59 PM »
Yes, it is all very subjective. I have found the exact same thing with various people reporting on how well a Rostra works on a C-14 for example, some think it is wonderful while some seem a little disappointing that it is not flawless. Exactly as you said, how does one measure pain, food, etc., etc.

I will say that I have not found any 'day and night' differences in C-14's regardless of tune or flash (though of course I have not tried them all). But I did notice a huge difference in an '08 ZX 14 once the 'flies were removed AND it was tuned on a dyno with a Power Commander. An acquaintance had a new ZX and frankly both of us were underwhelmed with its performance in low to mid- range power, throttle response and so forth. I removed the 'flies and honestly, while it perhaps did get better, it was just not impressive, at least to either of us. But after adding a P.C. with a custom map, it was transformed into the bike I expected it to be in the first place- very impressive, far more so than tuning a C-14 for example.

I was happy with removing the 'flies and a P.C. III with a custom map on my own bike, coupled with removing all the slack from the throttle cables which I personally found to contribute more to the bike's low- speed jerkiness than the actual mixture tuning. But just like you, I would not say it was suddenly something outrageous, just more like the 1400 cc bike I expected when I bought it in the first place. I found the stock bike neutered below, say, 5K RPM, and removing the 'flies and re-tuning the mixture eliminated that situation.... IMO of course.

Brian

For me, it [Guhl flash] was a huge change and I was sure it was there.  I wasn't expecting a "totally different bike" kind of experience, though.  But it immediately got rid of that horrible lag and "sag" in the performance curve at lower RPM that was driving me crazy.  I had the EXACT SAME issue with my ZRX-11- it felt the same way, until I installed a jet kit and WHAM, it was just linear after that.  So if you know what it is was that was annoying, and had reasonable expectations, it was extremely noticeable and a "huge" change, at least with my driving style.  If you have a different driving style or weren't bothered by the stock behavior to start with, it might be much less noticeable.

:)  Well, subjectivity always comes across with wild variations.  Kinda like explaining pain or how delicious something is.  I know for sure that lots of things that annoy me or drive me crazy don't phase many other people at all, and vice-versa.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2018, 07:17:32 AM »
  The real issue here is "the black box effect". Folks can't see the programming, so they can easily think it's all the same. 

  I made the comparison of a Mercedes and a Yugo to the OP. The point was that they are both cars, but they are not the same. Your C-14 isn't like a Hyosung 250, but they are both motorcycles. When it comes to flashes, since folks can't see the programming and haven't experienced what can be achieved, it's easy to say it's all the same. All flashes are the same... but they're not.

   I have written before that just opening the secondaries sooner will yield the largest change / gain in the new tuning. This isn't hard to do, kind of like removing the secondaries, which costs 0.00.  To be honest, I gained more %age of change in the first couple of days tuning the c-14 than I have in the ensuing YEARS of constant refinement. So I guess this supports the 80/20 statements earlier in this thread.

   Even in my own flashes, I have 2 diverging styles. The difference is primarily in the secondary controls. Although both make the same peak power, how they get there, in throttle %age, throttle feel and control, are different. Some folks prefer one style over the other, to the point that it is very polarizing. But as been stated, if you haven't felt the differences, you simply cannot say "this is better"... and then in reality, it's only better FOR YOU.  To that end I will allow folks an opportunity to change to another flash for little or no $$, depending on the situation. Most folks DON'T take me up on that. Most folks, after discussing the options have a sense of their riding style, so they pick one and it's a done deal.

    What can be done, and what sets flashes apart from each other? While everyone wants to concentrate on fueling, one huge forgotten parameter is timing. Timing will increase power, smoothness, and fuel economy, often to a much greater effect than fueling changes. 75.00 flashes don't have any timing changes... so there is that, but for a tuner that's a pretty easy way to go. Timing can be friend or foe... leave it alone and you don't have to deal with that. The product is not optimized in any manner, but the tuner saves on the work load. The best tunes have extensive timing work, which isn't done haphazardly. That's just one place that sets tunes apart.

     If you've been around the Concours, you know what exhaust options are available. Fueling needs to be optimized based on those options. There's only 1 full system I know of in the US for the the Concours... the AreaP. All other full systems are zx14 systems. We all know the slipon players, maybe what, 5 options? They will all react the same, so fueling is consistent with slipon changes, But one must wonder, when a flash is being offered with a couple hundred dollar fueling upgrade for exhausts that don't even exist for the Concours how much development time went into that. Things that make you go HMMM.

   How come some folks feel "night and day" differences and some do not?  That's pretty easy... the more of the throttle / powerband you use, the more you'll notice the changes. Take a guy who never really rev's the bike, generally easy on the throttle, etc... he's not going to experience anywhere near what the rider who is using from idle to redline, and zero to !00% throttle. Easy riders may not feel a flash did much for them. it may not have. There's only so much that can be accomplished in any given narrow area of operation.

   One of the better things I've read in this thread is there's some knowledge of the history of Concours flashing. Guhl was the big player for a long time. We have to be thankful for that. Don let us know that things could be better, and was willing to put in the effort to do so. Had Don stayed after it with constant innovation and dedication to the Concours community, there likely would be no competition for him. But that's not what happened, and here we are now. There are flashes available right now that are considerably better than 1 year ago. This is an evolving art. Certainly it is for me, and I think any tuner who wants to take pride in their work. I'm not trying to make any of this sound like a commercial, but it is the truth. The fact is that while all the black boxes look the same, what's getting stuffed inside of them is not.

  Steve

   

 

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2018, 03:09:49 PM »
Thank you, Steve.
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Offline blue72beetle

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2018, 09:08:10 PM »
I took my ECU down to Ryan's place yesterday and had him flash it. It's not a crazy huge difference, but there is a difference. Definitely worth $75. I'm happy with it.

Offline FIX UR CRITTER

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2018, 07:23:42 PM »
Quick update after a week in the mountains.

I can say that I am very happy for the improvement.

I wasn't positive I felt what I thought I did until my wife confirmed it by saying, " i don't feel the shifts anymore". I couldn't understand how a flash could make my shift lever engage smoother- it just clicks in like butter and the abruptness in between  shifts is gone. Riding 2 up I was always conscience of trying to get a smooth shift as not to disrupt the wife.. Now I dont have to worry about that.

I rode another c14 for 10 minutes with a different flash- and he rode my bike- neither of us could feel i big difference between them.

I know the more expensive flashes have a lot more tweaks and time in them, but for $100, the best bang for the buck outside of my $20 Vista throttle lock.

Ride safe

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Offline katata1100

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2018, 02:37:09 PM »
Whatever is “ best bang for the buck” is subjective . If I were to have a choice between a open the flies only tune for $75 or a full tune for $350, I’d consider the latter to be the better bang for the buck. Beside seat of the pants, where else can you get an extra 14 hp for the difference of $275?
And, I say this after riding with a open the flies earlier tune for four years and a complete tune for the last 2000 miles .
The same goes for a throttle lock- I’d never trade my $800 mccruise for a $20 throttle lock, I’d much prefer that $780 to be below the left hand grip than in my pocket . By how well it works, I think it’s a better use of $.
Of course that’s just my opinion .
I think these mods make the bike feel like a different animal. My right hand no longer hurts at the end of a long ride, I get better mpg ( which is much appreciated on a long ride) and the bike has more power ( again , appreciated on long rides when the bike is weighted down with luggage).
. But, if you ever get curious and get a mccruise and a full tune, the $
spent on the schnitz and throttle lock is just a waste.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 03:10:34 PM by katata1100 »

Offline gPink

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2018, 05:20:46 PM »
Not a waste...an education. We don't know until we try.

Offline katata1100

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2018, 06:45:27 PM »
Don’t know what?

Spend and extra $275, you get 14+ more hp.
Spend $780 more on mccruise , you get a real functioning cruise control unit, not
some pos throttle lock contraption that belongs in the landfill.

Offline turbojoe78

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2018, 06:52:13 PM »
The OP got a throttle lock to help on long rides, a flash that he feels is a pretty good improvement over stock and still has $1055.00 to put into suspension upgrades.

Sounds like a win, win, win to me!   ;)

It's all in how you look at it.   8)
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Schnitz Racing ECU flash
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2018, 07:35:22 PM »
Yep.  Lots of ways to look at things.  Choice is a good thing to have!
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc