Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Spongelander on August 06, 2020, 08:33:23 AM
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I replaced the fluid in the clutch master cylinder 1000 miles or so ago. I didn't use a bleeder and pull it all the way through the slave cylinder; instead I took the easy way out and used a turkey baster to replace the fluid.
All was fine, but now the lever is maybe 30% soft on 4-to-5 upshift only - not in any other gear, not starting off, and not downshifting. Has anyone else seen this? I do have a mityvac and can properly flush and bleed if needed (and will next time).
Thank you! Mac
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Can't think of any way a clutch hyrdraulics issue could have effect in only 5th to 6th. How many miles? I am thinking worn shift mechanism in transmission. But I'm not a mechanic.
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But have you stayed in a Holiday Inn Express recently?
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18K miles. I've been scouring the clutch bleeding issue threads and thinking I might have turkey-basted too much old fluid out - possibly exposing the bottom (to air!). I'm getting an inexpensive Motion Pro bleeder so I can do this without three hands, and will report back after a good bleeding session or two. Thank you.
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But have you stayed in a Holiday Inn Express recently?
As a matter of fact...
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18K miles. I've been scouring the clutch bleeding issue threads and thinking I might have turkey-basted too much old fluid out - possibly exposing the bottom (to air!). I'm getting an inexpensive Motion Pro bleeder so I can do this without three hands, and will report back after a good bleeding session or two. Thank you.
I think 18k miles rules out or at least makes unlikely the tranny wear idea. Good move with the motion pro, I find it works much better than Mity Vac. But still waiting for a response from one of the mechanical gurus about 4th to 5th only. That has to be a clue.
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Yes, the 4-5 upshift thing is really strange. I went on a 300-mile ride on forest roads yesterday, and the issue popped up. I started paying attention to each upshift and downshift, found the 4->5 anomaly, then tried holding the bike in 4th or 5th and varying the throttle, with my hand on the clutch. I thought either 4th or 5th might be direct drive and that might have something to do with it. My buddy thinks I stirred up sediment and blocked one of the tiny ports, or that maybe I pulled too much out with the turkey baster and uncovered the clutch hose. Very strange.
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The clutch is not in any way interactive with the transmission, other than the obvious connection in that it provides torque to the transmission input shaft. So there should not be any effect on the clutch by the gear selection of the transmission, at least as far as I can see. The clutch should behave the same way regardless of what gear(s) you are shifting into or out of.
There have been a number of failures of fourth gear in C-14 transmissions though, most catastrophic failures when fourth gear 'disappears' and is simply not available because the teeth have fractured off the gear's hub and of course cannot engage in the other gear. If you are having odd behavior in fourth gear, I would suggest it is the transmission itself and not the clutch; you may have a damaged fourth gear that has not yet failed completely. ??
The bad news is that the engine and transmission have to be removed from the frame, followed by a pretty intense tear-down of the transmission to even get to that gear. And there is no way I can think of to diagnose such a problem without that tear- down unfortunately.
If it is a clutch issue, then perhaps the transmission is slightly more resistant to shifting from fourth into fifth and the clutch is not fully disengaging but this shift is the only time it is noticeable? The hydraulics on C-14's are difficult to bleed fully and the only I have been successful is with a powered brake bleeding device. It seems like a very small amount of air is left in the system no matter how many times it is manually bled but power bleeding eventually removes all the air.
Certainly trying to bleed the clutch as thoroughly as possible is no doubt the best way to proceed- beats the hell out of dropping the transmission and taking a look inside!
Brian
I replaced the fluid in the clutch master cylinder 1000 miles or so ago. I didn't use a bleeder and pull it all the way through the slave cylinder; instead I took the easy way out and used a turkey baster to replace the fluid.
All was fine, but now the lever is maybe 30% soft on 4-to-5 upshift only - not in any other gear, not starting off, and not downshifting. Has anyone else seen this? I do have a mityvac and can properly flush and bleed if needed (and will next time).
Thank you! Mac
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B.D.F Thanks, the engagement point shifts 1/2" to 1" inward just on that one shift. I'll thoroughly bleed it and report back.
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There have been a number of failures of fourth gear in C-14 transmissions though, most catastrophic failures when fourth gear 'disappears' and is simply not available because the teeth have fractured off the gear's hub and of course cannot engage in the other gear. If you are having odd behavior in fourth gear, I would suggest it is the transmission itself and not the clutch; you may have a damaged fourth gear that has not yet failed completely. ??
Having had exactly that (only one tooth sheared off 4th gear) I can say that It gave me no indication until I rode 100 feet or so without my helmet on. Normally (I would say always, but obviously not in this case) wearing a helmet and good sealing ear buds I couldn't hear what I heard just riding across the parking lot to the bike wash. I have no idea how or when that tooth came off, but it was obvious from the noise that something was wrong just riding in first and second gear around the parking lot with no helmet. The noise of that one broken tooth reflected off the parked cars in the lot. I had no clutch feel changes at all, and the next morning with helmet on and ear buds in I couldn't hear it as I slowly drove at 25 mph to the closest dealer. On the way to the dealer I never went higher than 4th gear but I know I used all six the day before and only discovered the noise after a full day of riding and deciding to wash the bike. So give it a good listen as well, perhaps on the center stand try it a bit in first and second to eliminate that possibility. It should be audible if you have the same problem.
As others have said, I'm not sure how the two could be related but it's interesting, please keep us in the information loop as you chase this down.
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BDF said: There have been a number of failures of fourth gear in C-14 transmissions though, most catastrophic failures when fourth gear 'disappears' and is simply not available because the teeth have fractured off the gear's hub and of course cannot engage in the other gear.
I have never read of such failures - fartymarty's, yes a single tooth on one gear or another. Please provide evidence to support your statement.
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I have to assume you have my post under a bright light, the post is sweating profusely and you are simply waiting until I cave in and admit everything to you.... ? Perhaps you could try beating your monitor with a rubber hose or a large telephone book until I sign a confession? Sorry chief, ain't gonna' happen. ;D
My local dealer had a C-14 spread across three separate benches repairing the transmission after fourth gear 'disappeared' or in better terms, would not engage at all. This dealer is quite competent and I fully believe that what they described is exactly what had happened; of course at that time I had no idea you would insist on proof or I would have taken fingerprints, mugshots and detailed testimony of all those involved. I have no idea how many teeth broke off but personally feel it quite irreverent- a failed gear is a failed gear IMO and the specific degree of failure is a moot point.
Of course all of this is also irrelevant to the topic at hand, which is about the OP saying his clutch acts differently in only one gear, and only on the up-shift of that gear. To which I responded that I could not imagine how that could be, suggested a possible explanation and suggested he again bleed the clutch again as aggressively and thoroughly as possible. I still believe that is a reasonable and logical course of action.
Sometimes I forget how fun the InterWebs can be but I betcha' Al Gore did not see this kinda' stuff coming when he invented it. :rotflmao:
Brian
BDF said: There have been a number of failures of fourth gear in C-14 transmissions though, most catastrophic failures when fourth gear 'disappears' and is simply not available because the teeth have fractured off the gear's hub and of course cannot engage in the other gear.
I have never read of such failures - fartymarty's, yes a single tooth on one gear or another. Please provide evidence to support your statement.
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Such failures are, no doubt, rare to the extreme. But I have read about them before on these forums. I don't think it is anything to be alarmed about. No machine is perfect. And, like BDF, I don't think it relates to this thread at all.
My recommendation, which is likely what most people would recommend, would be a complete re-do of the clutch fluid flush/replacement, with special attention paid to ensuring there is no possibility of air. Might also verify the engine oil is of the correct type and not old. Then see if there is anything left to troubleshoot after that.
Unlike failed gears, having air/contaminates in the clutch/brake lines is, in fact, a very common issue. Thankfully, one I have not experienced yet, though. Not quite as common as battery/ground connection issues, which HAS bitten me.
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I have to assume you have my post under a bright light, the post is sweating profusely and you are simply waiting until I cave in and admit everything to you.... ? Perhaps you could try beating your monitor with a rubber hose or a large telephone book until I sign a confession? Sorry chief, ain't gonna' happen. ;D
Sometimes I forget how fun the InterWebs can be but I betcha' Al Gore did not see this kinda' stuff coming when he invented it. :rotflmao:
Brian
:chugbeer: :rotflmao:
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Yes, off topic indeed but thanks for replying BDF. I have first-hand experience in a broken gear tooth. I can't see it happening as your local dealer described it to you - simply exaggeration as in spread across three separate benches: 2 for plastic maybe and one for the engine.
Ride and keep safe over there. :chugbeer:
http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/2nd-gear-vanished/msg667992/#msg667992 (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/2nd-gear-vanished/msg667992/#msg667992)
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having followed mechanical (hard part) failure since day one,, and seeing the narrow cross section of them, I'll say most were '13 and up to '15,(after that point non reported); when the ratio on gear one changed.... that said, the gears, and clutch, are non -associated.. so far I have sen 6 reports of gear failure ( mechanical / broken), and none were clutch associated.. well, a couple were, but they were slamming gears down, without clutching. after that... all the proponents of clutch-less shift, and can pretty much eat horse hockey... I nver bused my clutches.. and when the H.P, overcame the level of that clutch, it was all my fault. C14, C10, both had bulletproof clutches...
bleed the sucker... and it will b fine
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I'm going with the man with flower pots..
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OK, ya' got me- it was really 4 tables.... no, wait, it was 5 tables! Yep, that is it, five tables. And each one had more than one level too, so it was really ten tables!
Honestly, I do feel better having admitted the truth so thanks for pushing me to confess.
As to your comment about keeping safe, thank you for the kind thoughts (seriously, not sarcastically). In reality, things here (where I live) are downright boring regardless of what you may see on the news; there ARE pockets of unrest in the US of A but like Australia, the US is a big country and the majority of the population is not within gunshot distance of any social.... er, 'upsets'.
But back to the topic at hand: I believe the OP has a bit of air in the clutch hydraulics. As for what the connection is to any particular gear, I cannot imagine what might cause that beyond what I already stated about the gear itself being damaged and reflecting on more difficult shifting in the one case. Regarding the OP's later post that the clutch engagement point changes when the bike is in that particular gear I have absolutely no idea what might cause that condition?
Brian (OK, that is not my real name. In fact, it is not a real name at all.)
Yes, off topic indeed but thanks for replying BDF. I have first-hand experience in a broken gear tooth. I can't see it happening as your local dealer described it to you - simply exaggeration as in spread across three separate benches: 2 for plastic maybe and one for the engine.
Ride and keep safe over there. :chugbeer:
http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/2nd-gear-vanished/msg667992/#msg667992 (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/2nd-gear-vanished/msg667992/#msg667992)
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He's a figment of his imagination...
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:yikes: :thumbs: :chugbeer:
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OP here. So... I bled the clutch slowly and carefully, doing the clutch master cylinder first, then the slave cylinder. Got a good firm lever. But after a few minutes, and after the bike heated up, things started changing. The 4-5 upshift loss of clutch resumed. And when I accelerate, then decelerate, with the clutch lever pulled in a bit, I can feel the engagement point shifting. All very strange. Then...
A slow 2-3 upshift had a "crunchy" sound. The shift was firm, but it appears something is loose inside. I limped home, sometimes hearing this crunch, sometimes not - but it dawned on me what this likely is: some of the legs on the four leaf springs /star springs have probably broken. So... I am off to elsewhere in the Forum, to look up star spring troubles and replacement. I've read it's not hard, there are 2 each of two similar springs, that I need a gasket and an end nut as well. Maybe what I was feeling the whole time was the clutch "bump" described by those who have broken star springs.
Thanks for your help! I'll report back here once I check this out.
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I had to go look at your first post here, to see for sure what year you have.. and also to be sure we are talking C14... and how many miles..
so it's a 2014, new old stock, with like (original post was 14k) now 18k miles on it..
I'm thinking it ain't the star springs.. it would have to have been really abused for one to break with that low a mileage, and time.. and again, star springs will exhibit the same symptom in ALL gears, not just one typical shift up/down sequence.. like you are reporting.
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Thanks for your help! I'll report back here once I check this out.
Please do so, Thanks.
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Well, the problem WAS the soft clutch... but after bleeding and a test ride, shifting became crunchy at random. I rode the mile home, and most shifts seemed to be normal. Then I put the bike on its centerstand, fired it up, and let the clutch out. It seems there is a bit of rattling. I shifted into first and second at idle speed, and there appears to be random noise. Possibly unrelated, I sat on the bike, gearshift in Neutral, and was unable to shift up into second (that may be Kawi's patented feature though).
It's possible that I won't be able to touch it for a week, but I will be back. The reason I suspected the star spring is that my Sportster had small leaf springs as a clutch assist, riveted on to one of the steels. Those rivets wore down, sending the little springs bouncing around the clutch basket. I hope that's all it is... more to come. Thanks Marty!
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Glad you are tracking down the problem and especially glad it is a clutch problem. Transmission problems can be pretty nasty. The entire clutch is accessible from under side covers so repairing that will be a lot easier than anything in the transmission.
Best of luck moving forward!
Brian
Well, the problem WAS the soft clutch... but after bleeding and a test ride, shifting became crunchy at random. I rode the mile home, and most shifts seemed to be normal. Then I put the bike on its centerstand, fired it up, and let the clutch out. It seems there is a bit of rattling. I shifted into first and second at idle speed, and there appears to be random noise. Possibly unrelated, I sat on the bike, gearshift in Neutral, and was unable to shift up into second (that may be Kawi's patented feature though).
It's possible that I won't be able to touch it for a week, but I will be back. The reason I suspected the star spring is that my Sportster had small leaf springs as a clutch assist, riveted on to one of the steels. Those rivets wore down, sending the little springs bouncing around the clutch basket. I hope that's all it is... more to come. Thanks Marty!
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Couldn't resist going into the clutch today to see if the star springs were broken. It's not hard to pull the cover off, then the springs. One steel and one friction plate came off as well. I broke the clutch hub nut loose and removed it. The star springs are fine...So I re-assembled, put the clutch cover on, added the oil, and started her up. Ran fine, shifted a couple of times at idle on the center stand. Then I gave the bike some throttle - and something rattles inside. It sounds like a loose cam chain might sound like, but it's coming from the clutch area. I pulled the cover off again, pulled the clutch springs, re-set the steel and friction plates. It appears that the friction plate's tab is one slot over from the others (like a secondary clutch). Fired it up again, same noise. Do any of you experts know what I may have done wrong in the reassembly process? The clutch has good feel - just now this new noise.
Getting to learn about Connie a bit at a time...
Thank you! Mac
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The only rattle I know of common to this bike is the cam chain, which is on the right side of the engine. However, it only rattles on start-up due to it needing oil pressure to extend; when the bike is first started, the chain rattles because it is a bit slack. There are threads about this on this forum. But again, this is usually only a start- up rattle, not something that happens after, say, 5 or 8 seconds of running.
The usual problems with the clutch are on the hydraulic side simply because the system is so hard to fully bleed. Of course that does not cause any rattle but it does result in a clutch that engages at different points as the engine warms.
Otherwise I am afraid I cannot be of much help with the mechanical clutch itself- unless a spring(s) is broken or tabs have been sheared off, they do not make noise.
Hopefully someone else can shed some light on this. Best of luck going forward.
Brian
Couldn't resist going into the clutch today to see if the star springs were broken. It's not hard to pull the cover off, then the springs. One steel and one friction plate came off as well. I broke the clutch hub nut loose and removed it. The star springs are fine...So I re-assembled, put the clutch cover on, added the oil, and started her up. Ran fine, shifted a couple of times at idle on the center stand. Then I gave the bike some throttle - and something rattles inside. It sounds like a loose cam chain might sound like, but it's coming from the clutch area. I pulled the cover off again, pulled the clutch springs, re-set the steel and friction plates. It appears that the friction plate's tab is one slot over from the others (like a secondary clutch). Fired it up again, same noise. Do any of you experts know what I may have done wrong in the reassembly process? The clutch has good feel - just now this new noise.
Getting to learn about Connie a bit at a time...
Thank you! Mac
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So, a brief update to the rattle I now hear. I bled master and slave cylinders, removed slave cylinder for inspection, tore clutch down, stopping at the point of tearing down the basket. I did not measure every part, bike only has 19K miles mostly country riding, and there's little wear on anything, and no broken parts. With all the clutch parts out, I can run the engine and there is no rattle. With everything installed - by the book, slowly and carefully - there's one heck of an intermittent rattle, that appears more on decel, but is still occasionally present, even at idle. It almost sounds like a bearing, maybe on the output shaft near the front bevel drive. Because sound travels so well through bolted-together metal pieces, it's very difficult to find, and I can't use my stethescope on a spinning clutch.
I'm at the limits of my mechanical ability to diagnose this. So - onto the trailer and down to the local dealer, where I'm told there's a person that does a lot of Connie work. I saw a case of a dry bearing elsewhere in this forum, and I pulled the rubber cap off the front drive, all looks fine and can't hear noise there when running.
I have a voice memo of what it sounds like, that I'll post later. I'll update this when I receive a diagnosis. Holding my breath...and wallet...
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Sponge' thanks for taking the time to keep us in the loop. Good Luck with the diagnosis and the $$$ part associated with that.
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Yeah, as Marty said, thanks for the update.
And again, the best of luck in that it is something that can be corrected reasonably (read: not outrageous in price).
<snip>
I have a voice memo of what it sounds like, that I'll post later. I'll update this when I receive a diagnosis. Holding my breath...and wallet...
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Hoping for reasonableness but above all a correct diagnosis, so that if it's big bucks to fix, it can be a winter project at home (likely a big one). Thanks.
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Supposedly the best Kawasaki mechanic in the state is scheduled to look at it, but not until October 9. Being booked up isn't a bad thing! I'll report the findings.
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Bringing this thread back with an update: As noted, I had a soft clutch only on 4->5 upshifts, had some softness running in 5th gear, which could be modulated with the throttle (softness point would change in response to throttle input). Replaced and bled clutch. Rattle developed. Tore clutch down to point of removing basket (but no further) finding nothing. I took the bike, on a trailer, to the dealer (who is reputed to have the best Kawasaki mechanic in the state).
Well now I have an update: They say they found both the shift drum cover plate and the transmission output shaft cover plates loose, to the point of being held in by only three threads or so. They've torn the engine down and want to replace a lot of parts as a result of looseness and parts hitting and damaging each other. I understand their suspicion that I went deeper and left screws untorqued, but I did not. The only thing I can think of is that they were improperly torqued at the factory, or that required threadlocker wasn't applied (a skipped operation step).
I sent Kawasaki a letter noting this, along with a copy of what the dealer proposes, asking for help. It's a '14 with 19K easy miles, but I did not buy the extended warranty. So - does this sound plausible? I guess a note to those replacing clutch plates might be to pull the basket and the big washer behind it, and check the torque of these screws.
I'll post the responses I get. It does explain why I couldn't find the rattle, despite probably eight hours of trying.
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Do you mean the big nut that holds the assembly on the transmission shaft was loose?
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These are bearing keeper plates that prevent endplay in the two shafts. I'll have to post a pic of the parts they want to replace. It's considerable - the transmission shaft and several gears. It's hard for me to see how so much damage could occur with so little noise. I will be sure to ask for all the parts they take out.
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That means they must split the case. Cheaper to replace the complete donk with a used one as it's gotta come out to do that much work. But bearing keeper plates in these are a new one on me - and I've been in there that deep.
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They already tore it down, so I kind of stuck myself. Yes they want 30 hours of labor to tear down and re-do. I'll be asking for the used parts. Thanks. I thought about a used replacement but decided since I had such low miles, I'd bite the bullet. I have 10-15 road riding years left and I love this bike; I figure it will be my last big one.
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I know on my old SV1000 clutch became noisy with chatter. It was the basket springs, I replace the basket and problem solved. I haven't looked at the C14 clutch so I might be off base here just a thought.
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These are bearing keeper plates that prevent endplay in the two shafts. I'll have to post a pic of the parts they want to replace. It's considerable - the transmission shaft and several gears. It's hard for me to see how so much damage could occur with so little noise. I will be sure to ask for all the parts they take out.
Have you seen the parts they say are bad?
Ride safe, Ted
Justa thought; Ebay; lots of tranny's/engines available.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-10-14-Kawasaki-Concours-1400-ZG1400-OEM-Transmission-Drum-Shift-Gears-Forks/324117802361?fits=Model%3AConcours+14%7CMake%3AKawasaki&hash=item4b76ed2d79:g:lGgAAOSwWnhefumg#viTabs_0 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-10-14-Kawasaki-Concours-1400-ZG1400-OEM-Transmission-Drum-Shift-Gears-Forks/324117802361?fits=Model%3AConcours+14%7CMake%3AKawasaki&hash=item4b76ed2d79:g:lGgAAOSwWnhefumg#viTabs_0)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/08-10-Kawasaki-Concours-14-ZG1400-Engine-Motor-Transmission/254747974003?fits=Model%3AConcours+14%7CMake%3AKawasaki&hash=item3b50299973:g:kUIAAOSw2bVfhgYK#viTabs_0 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/08-10-Kawasaki-Concours-14-ZG1400-Engine-Motor-Transmission/254747974003?fits=Model%3AConcours+14%7CMake%3AKawasaki&hash=item3b50299973:g:kUIAAOSw2bVfhgYK#viTabs_0)
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Thanks,
I'm asking them to save the parts. I wonder if some will become less necessary to replace as a result of my asking; if not, I'll have a good look at everything and have material for an art project.
I have the shop manual but I don't trust my ability to tear it completely down, measure and replace everything, and re-assemble. In my younger days I would have taken a shot at that.
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So: Bike's back in operation; they replaced the transmission shaft and several gears. Those have grooves in them, and some of the dogs are worn. I'll post pictures. Stacy at Hillsboro Motosport did a great job tearing it down, replacing parts, and re-assembling. I went for a 200-mile ride after getting my bike back, and it is like a new bike.
Officially what happened is that the shift drum and transmission shaft bearing keeper plates had loose screws, allowing both to float, and parts to wear against each other. Those plates are held in by small screws for which the torque spec is 30 inch pounds (2.5 foot pounds). Threadlocker is specified for those screws, and my suspicion is that this step may have been missed.
I'm thinking this is an original assembly error (maybe break time intervened between operations) and I won the anti-lottery. I'm asking Mother K to help; we shall see. I'm looking for lots of trouble-free miles now; I had the valves set to their outermost tolerance (and I'm pretty gentle to the bike) so that should be good for years.
I guess the lesson from this is - if the clutch play begins to vary - consider that things may be loose inside. This will probably never happen to you.
Glad to be back!
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Glad it got fixed, hope Momma Kaw treats you well.
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I've been into Kawasaki transmissions on recently produced stuff, but not a C14 or ZX14, and am not understanding your parts description of these keeper plates. Was the cam on the end of the shift drum loose? I'm really curious to see parts pictures and understand what happened.
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I'm going to dig into my shop manual more, and post pictures soon. The description of the issue is:
"Found output trans shaft bearing keeper plate bolts loose. Also shift drum keeper plate bolts loose. This was causing trans shaft and bearing to float and allow gear dogs to come in contact at the wrong time. "
And the dogs on one of the gears I got back (5th?) have a flat spot at a 45 degree angle, measuring 0.2" or so.
More to follow!
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So this makes sense if you look at shifting to 4-5 as a sequence of shifts with the 4-5 being the last of the sequence. As an experiment, a series of shifts 1-2, 2-3, 3-2, 2-3 might if replicating the condition described would rule out the 4-5 gears and point the finger back at air in the circuit.