Author Topic: ECU flashing now available  (Read 133699 times)

Offline DaddyFlip

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #340 on: July 02, 2016, 03:59:56 PM »
I don't mind the picking; I sorta asked for it in my long post. BUT, maybe it will help folks make up their mind about the flash, which is what you were looking for a page or two ago. The reason I purchased the flash was because of an initial experience posted on another forum, the following positive experiences of other forum members, and the realization that the number of negative reviews of the flash by people claiming to have received it were... ZERO. Unless there was a conspiracy, that was testament for me.

I think you have given examples of what the flash does that I can't describe, and yet another proof of why people will easily choose a pipe over a flash. I believe all the good things you are saying are occurring with my bike post-flash. It's just not one of those things that I experience in such a way that I can provide a glowing review of all the good things that are happening. Those glowing reports are obviously from folks with lots of riding experience, lots of experience with the C14 specifically, and the ability to zero in on the differences and put them into words better than I can.

You suggested I be hard on the bike for awhile to break it in; I've been doing that with the flash and still getting 48MPG, so maybe that is the best testament I can give. But again, for the average moto consumer, the flash isn't flashy like a new pipe or windscreen. I am convinced, however, that I have a better bike because of the flash, even if I can't describe why.
2001 ZR-7s "Ol' Red"
1995 FXDWG

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #341 on: July 02, 2016, 04:27:40 PM »
 Daddyflip, if it helps you any, I'm 2k into a suspension on my bike. And I've never gone this far with suspension before, so I am really having to pump up the learning curve to be able to properly adjust the suspension, and figure our what does what... for instance I had an issue with the shock spring being to light for my weight, so my settings were far away from what was suggested. I ended up speaking with someone very knoledgable in suspensions, and he told me all my hydraulic adjustments were wrong because the spring was wrong. I followed his advise to the letter and wow, compliance with a heavier spring. So when it comes to tuning, there's a big learning curve, and if you don't know what to look for it's easy to look right over it.  Maybe the best thing about good tuning - engine, suspension, whatever,  is to say "I have no complaints".  Steve

Offline DaddyFlip

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #342 on: July 02, 2016, 06:13:29 PM »
WHOA! Don't go there! It is a prerequisite of forum membership to have a complaint or two in your back pocket in case there's a slow day!

I have to temper your suggestion a bit: to the best of my knowledge, I had no complaints before tuning and to the best of my knowledge, I have no complaints now. I will say that I trusted the ECU to you and took your advice, much like you did with your suspension, and the end result is a much more satisfying ownership experience.

That's another thing about your human nature question: you provide a service instead of a product, which is less tangible. Folks want that stuff free as info or a download on the Internet. If they can't get it in a box and hold it, the value is lower.

I have no complaints with the stock suspension at 240 pounds. I have no idea where it is set; I drove it off the lot and haven't touched it. I have no complaints with the 5-year old stock seat; I quit using the Airhawk yesterday and I think I like it better. I really can't take advantage of or appreciate most upgrades... except my new CB UTD windscreen. What a transformation.
2001 ZR-7s "Ol' Red"
1995 FXDWG

Offline maxtog

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #343 on: July 02, 2016, 08:48:22 PM »
or the inability to tell the difference in a flashed vs. non-flashed bike, a real performance gain isn't even necessary.

I can't imagine how one could not tell the difference between a flashed and unflashed C14.  To me it is mind boggling.  The difference is immediate and obvious, it doesn't take screaming RPM or large throttle openings to know.

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I couldn't tell any difference in the two OE modes other than the slight bump in RPM going to ECO.

I can certainly tell... but the diff in FEAM and non-FEAM OE modes are like 1 vs 2 on a 10 point scale, where reflashing difference (to me, anyway) is like 1 vs 7 or something on a 10 point scale.

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I don't even know what to look/listen/feel for to know the difference. IF the benefits of the flash are real, then the problem in being able to experience them lies with me, or my ability, or my riding style, etc. I'll never reach 10k RPM;

It is very noticeable at even medium throttle even at 4K.

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I've never been over 6k I don't think, and never will.

Yikes.  My typical lazy/calm shifting to get to speed in 2/3 is usually at 5k or more.   Spirited riding... much, much higher.  If your TOP/MAX shifting RPM is only 6K and you are usually doing even lower, you are leaving TONS of power never used at all. 

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If you claim to notice the difference in what a pipe gives you in performance and weight, then you DEFINITELY need the flash!

If by "pipe" you mean muffler replacement, *nobody* will notice any difference on a C14, ever, in any way, under any condition.  Period.  If they claim to, it is just in their imagination based on noise.  A full exhaust system, on the other hand, is a different story.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline DaddyFlip

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #344 on: July 02, 2016, 11:14:06 PM »
I can't imagine how one could not tell the difference between a flashed and unflashed C14.  To me it is mind boggling.  The difference is immediate and obvious, it doesn't take screaming RPM or large throttle openings to know.
Are there any circumstances by which you COULD imagine it? Maybe one only had a couple thousand miles on the bike before having it flashed? Maybe during this time, one rode mostly- say, 90% -in ECO mode. According to an earlier post by SISF, a good tune might not be 'immediate and obvious'; one may just "have no complaints". So I have 5000 miles on a NOS 2011; basically half on ECO mode and half flashed. What difference should it make?

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I can certainly tell... but the diff in FEAM and non-FEAM OE modes are like 1 vs 2 on a 10 point scale, where reflashing difference (to me, anyway) is like 1 vs 7 or something on a 10 point scale.
If FEAM and non-FEAM OE modes are so closely related, then should I be able to compare FEAM OE and flash? What occurred at '7' that did not occur at '1' on the 10 point scale?

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It is very noticeable at even medium throttle even at 4K.
What is very noticeable?

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Yikes.  My typical lazy/calm shifting to get to speed in 2/3 is usually at 5k or more.   Spirited riding... much, much higher.  If your TOP/MAX shifting RPM is only 6K and you are usually doing even lower, you are leaving TONS of power never used at all.
I agree with that assessment, but I haven't found a circumstance under which I want or need that power. TBH, a scooter might just as easily accommodate my riding style. However, I have a C14 for its size, weight, and stability on interstates, its luggage capacity, and the sporty look. I don't carve, twisty, or track day. I don't exceed the speed limit except to pass. I ride like I drive a cage; for Point A to Point B alternative transportation on major highways and interstates following the speed limit. I could do with half or a third of the displacement/power, or even a different style of bike might serve my purposes better.

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If by "pipe" you mean muffler replacement, *nobody* will notice any difference on a C14, ever, in any way, under any condition.  Period.  If they claim to, it is just in their imagination based on noise.  A full exhaust system, on the other hand, is a different story.
I do, and I agree, which is why I suggested that if one thought he could notice a difference with a muffler replacement, then he definitely should get the flash because he should REALLY notice the difference in that. I'm sure you would agree based on your endorsement above. I disagree that a full exhaust is necessarily a different story; it only is above a certain RPM where a casual rider like me will never tread. For my convenience, I link to the Area P comparison of their can and full system vs. stock. For both, you have to get at and above 6k RPM for any appreciable power increase to manifest. And to really take advantage of what a full exhaust has to offer over a can, you have to get at and above 8k RPM! To a full exhaust on a Connie under the conditions by which this particular bike will be used, I say, "so what?" I think SISF a few posts back also came to this conclusion for practical reasons.

http://areapnolimits.com/products/Slip-On-Exhaust-Kawasaki-Concours-14-2008.php

The purpose of all my posting is to help people understand what the flash is (and may not be) from the perspective of a rider with a much more modest riding background and conservative style. It's for those who are skeptical of all the glowing reports they read, but who could still benefit even if they wouldn't be able to describe the 'differences'. It's these who would automatically choose a muffler for the obvious reasons when they might not even consider the flash. But maybe they should consider the flash instead of, or in addition to, a muffler.

Okay, now I've adopted your multiple quote style… I learn something new everyday.
2001 ZR-7s "Ol' Red"
1995 FXDWG

Offline maxtog

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #345 on: July 03, 2016, 06:36:09 AM »
Are there any circumstances by which you COULD imagine it? Maybe one only had a couple thousand miles on the bike before having it flashed? Maybe during this time, one rode mostly- say, 90% -in ECO mode.

I suppose I could possibly imagine it under those circumstances.  It will be much more noticeable with spirited driving.  We need to get you to twist that wrist some more :)

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If FEAM and non-FEAM OE modes are so closely related, then should I be able to compare FEAM OE and flash?

Yes.  In fact, since the FEAM is left alone on both Guhl and SISF reflashes, it is a great tool to compare before and after.

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What occurred at '7' that did not occur at '1' on the 10 point scale? [...]What is very noticeable?

The changes.  The immediate throttle response.  The lack of hesitation and flat spot in the power band.

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Okay, now I've adopted your multiple quote style… I learn something new everyday.

Be careful- Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline DaddyFlip

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #346 on: July 03, 2016, 07:51:53 AM »
I've wanted to try an A-B comparison and really concentrate on potential differences, but I've just not been worried about it… I mean, I've had no complaints. TBH, I've been more pleased with the results of following SISF's advice to 'beat the hell out of the bike' for awhile. Unfortunately/fortunately, that happened on top of receiving the flash so it's difficult to determine which improved my satisfaction. Like I said, I have no complaints. At some point, I will run ECO for awhile to compare objective MPG and will try to compare the subjective differences. In the final analysis, I doubt I will have complaints.
2001 ZR-7s "Ol' Red"
1995 FXDWG

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #347 on: July 03, 2016, 08:08:03 AM »
 Here's a nice little test. in 3rd gear ECO mode roll lightly up to 3000 rpm, then give it a good hard turn of the throttle to 5000 rpm. Then do the same thing in power mode. You'll probably have to give it WOT so you can be sure you did the same thing in both tests.  3rd gear is a good gear because you won't go to fast, and you won't have to fight the wheelies. I think the differences will be immediately apparent. Let us know - Steve

Offline DaddyFlip

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #348 on: July 03, 2016, 08:24:04 AM »
Here's a nice little test. in 3rd gear ECO mode roll lightly up to 3000 rpm, then give it a good hard turn of the throttle to 5000 rpm. Then do the same thing in power mode. You'll probably have to give it WOT so you can be sure you did the same thing in both tests.  3rd gear is a good gear because you won't go to fast, and you won't have to fight the wheelies. I think the differences will be immediately apparent. Let us know - Steve

I will do that today and report back; thank you! Been planning an engine mounting bolt torque check/retorque and going out to do that now. Feel free to talk amongst yourselves. Please stand by...
2001 ZR-7s "Ol' Red"
1995 FXDWG

Offline Throttle 8

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #349 on: July 03, 2016, 11:22:15 AM »
I had to catch up on the last couple pages of reading after a two week tour to the National in Helen and back up here to Canada. I thought I would share some thoughts. I have Steve's flash and an Area P slip on. I just reviewed my receipts, and my calculations show that over the course of 3500+ miles; I averaged 47.6 U.S mpg. That included some easy highway riding, several hours of 85+ mph on the slab, and some shall we say spirited riding in the twisties. I never once put it in eco mode. I was very impressed!
What impressed me most however, was the grunt out of the curves on the Dragon, the Cherolhala, etc. It is impractical to be at full boil on the street, like you would be on the track (especially when you don't want to draw too much attention to yourself); so the grunt out of a corner at midrange was a huge plus for me. It leapt out of the corner! It is hard to express in words the transformation---a good bike was made much better.
I also loved the Area P. It has enough of a growl when you get on it to tell people you are not riding a sewing machine; but not enough to draw unwanted attention.
2014 C14
2000 ZX12R Ninja

Offline kzz1king

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #350 on: July 03, 2016, 11:54:59 AM »
I want some of that fighting wheelies stuff!
Wayne

Here's a nice little test. in 3rd gear ECO mode roll lightly up to 3000 rpm, then give it a good hard turn of the throttle to 5000 rpm. Then do the same thing in power mode. You'll probably have to give it WOT so you can be sure you did the same thing in both tests.  3rd gear is a good gear because you won't go to fast, and you won't have to fight the wheelies. I think the differences will be immediately apparent. Let us know - Steve
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Offline Ron Dawg

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #351 on: July 03, 2016, 12:10:20 PM »
Here's a nice little test. in 3rd gear ECO mode roll lightly up to 3000 rpm, then give it a good hard turn of the throttle to 5000 rpm. Then do the same thing in power mode. You'll probably have to give it WOT so you can be sure you did the same thing in both tests.  3rd gear is a good gear because you won't go to fast, and you won't have to fight the wheelies. I think the differences will be immediately apparent. Let us know - Steve

While we're waiting: From the easy riding side - Rode 100 miles or so today, two up. Normal mileage in the sames places has been 42 mpg consistently. A little slab, a lot of two lane (think like around Helen), some, not much traffic with a few lights. Today the mileage w/the flash it was  48.7pg m. Tried Eco mode for a mile on some sweeping two/three lanes with a hill or two. Difference was noticeable.

So if you happen to want a justification for the CFO...our current premium price (today) is $2.739 at the nearest Chevron. Break-even on fuel savings is approximately 36,500 miles if you got flashed without shipping in Helen ($300) and bought gas @ $2.739/gal; at $4.00/gal. like a year or so ago, it drops to about 20,000 miles. See? Just ride until you make a profit. Frugal! 

Now, back to waiting on  DaddyFlip's test results. I wonder if the rabbit died....
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 01:12:44 PM by Ron Dawg »
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #352 on: July 03, 2016, 01:00:35 PM »
the conversation seems to have changed... in the beginning, it was "what did you get on the dyno" or "my bike is fast enough" . Now it's "it pulls hard out of the corners and gets better mileage" so NOW we' re starting to get somewhere  :banana  Steve

Offline Ron Dawg

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #353 on: July 03, 2016, 01:17:03 PM »
So it seems. Sent you a message.
Ron
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Offline DaddyFlip

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #354 on: July 03, 2016, 09:13:36 PM »
the conversation seems to have changed... in the beginning, it was "what did you get on the dyno" or "my bike is fast enough" . Now it's "it pulls hard out of the corners and gets better mileage" so NOW we' re starting to get somewhere  :banana  Steve

You're welcome!  :finger_fing11:

Sorry it took so long. I pulled bodywork down to the side fairings today and did an engine mount re-torque, tightened exhaust header nuts, and tightened radiator bolts. Took my time and had fun. Okay I can tell the difference in the 3k RPM launch test, but I had to do it a couple of times before I noticed it; IOW, I had to acclimate myself to how the bike was behaving between the two modes. In 3rd, starting speed is 38mph. WOT produces an immediate roar that increases in intensity to where I stopped- 80mph and just shy of 7 grand. ECO… I wouldn't call it a hesitation, but nothing happens on WOT other than gentle propulsion and a gradual build of speed, THEN the roar comes on a couple seconds later.

So imagine standing 10 feet from the edge of a cliff and someone pushing you off the cliff from there… that's ECO. Now imagine standing on the edge of the cliff and someone kicking you off… that's SISF. Did I get it right?

4th gear at 3k rpm starts at 46mph and the result is about the same, though you're at 80 before 6 grand. 5th gear 3k starts at 50mph but the difference is not as noticeable; I did not try an OD roll-on, but I might down the road.

So I realize I may not be capable of realizing all the benefits of the flash, so let's go to the checklist:

1)  The Shoodaben Engineering C-14 flash will improve power everywhere in the rev range, from just off idle to redline. This makes low rpm riding and short shifting very comfortable.. no need to wind the engine up to get up to speed. I'm probably the king of short shifting; I rarely, if ever, get above 4k rpm. But I can see, based on the 3k test, that twisting the throttle at the right time will produce a more immediate response than the ECO mode. I would have to spend more time A-B testing the two modes, but I'm really not inclined to do so. I'm happy with the flash.

2) You will IMMEDIATELY notice that throttle control is smooth and seamless, like a perfectly set up rack of carbs. I think there is still some 'badness', but I just turned 5000 miles today. Still 'beating the hell out of the bike' and that is making a difference… every bike needs break-in.

3)  No abruptness on and off throttle. Up and downshifts will be smooth as butter. You won't have to work to be "smooth on the throttle" anymore. I believe this is better, but my ability to produce clean up/downshifts may be the limiting factor to noticing that the flash is helping me. I can see, though, as a result of the 3k test, that I can and should expect better response at the grip, so I don't need to compensate for this when shifting. Need to erase mental and muscle memory from previous experience with bike. Plus, I can be pretty sloppy shifting unless I'm really trying for a clean ride. I still have a lot of jacking around during shifting, but it's probably me and I might not notice flash improvement in this area.

4) if you ride 2 up, your passenger won't be banging their helmet into yours anymore. I never ride 2 up but because of (3) above, a pillion would not be happy with me. We would still knock heads.

5)  You will generally be riding in one to 2 gears higher for any given condition because of the increased torque. Almost irrelevant for me since I'm always trying to get to OD as quickly as possible anyway. Have tried some in town riding in higher gear and have noticed this is possible. I've tooled around town in 5th as low as 20mph (previously said 10mph; I was mistaken).

6)  If you're just "riding" and not working the throttle hard, the fuel economy increase will be clearly evident. This is me 99% of the time and I have already noticed the same increase others have, in general 42 to 48mpg… a 14% increase.

7) Grab a handful of throttle and look out! My DEAD STOCK 2012 C-14 dyno'd on Chris Jones' dyno gained 14 hp for a peak of 142hp. Peak torque was almost 95# and torque at 4000rpm increased to 87#. Again, this bike is DEAD STOCK, no other modifications! Proven in the 3k test.

So basically, I have a better bike. I have no complaints!
2001 ZR-7s "Ol' Red"
1995 FXDWG

Offline maxtog

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #355 on: July 03, 2016, 11:20:43 PM »
So imagine standing 10 feet from the edge of a cliff and someone pushing you off the cliff from there… that's ECO. Now imagine standing on the edge of the cliff and someone kicking you off… that's SISF.  Did I get it right?

Yep- you described the problem with the stock "responsiveness" pretty well by using the FEAM to compare.  The engine is restricted by the secondary butterflies which prevents the engine from getting the air you want when you want it.  Less air = less power.  And that main problem is corrected by a SISF or Ghul reflash or by pulling out the secondary butterflies.  The only real "cost" for that change (at least with reflashing) seems to be that the intake is louder.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 06:04:41 AM by maxtog »
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline Ron Dawg

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #356 on: July 04, 2016, 07:00:59 AM »
Good report DF. Sounds like you ride a lot like me.

Rode 100 miles or so yesterday. MPG was +14.9% for me, too.

I like the roll on/off for the hills, mtns, traffic around N. Ga.

I found a shift point by gear chart in the owner's manual. With the Flash I can now shift at the factory points, IIR without lugging.
2014 C-14 Red

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #357 on: July 04, 2016, 08:33:54 AM »
 Daddyflip, go over the battery connections  and frame grounds on the bike. My flash shifts like butter when the grounds are right, I mean you can just click up each gear with no clutch if you want to even with very low rpms. OTOH, when the grounds are bad, it seems the first thing to go bad is the shifting. HTH. Steve

Offline PlaynInPeoria

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #358 on: July 06, 2016, 11:02:05 AM »
I got 52 mpg in ECO mode coming back from Montana to Peoria last weekend.   I spent most of the time in OD and ECO mode.  When I had to make zippy passes, I would drop to 5th and out of ECO mode as it's soft in the low rpm range due to the flies not opening. 

It's pretty stinking quick in ECO mode and OD though, I really did it more for fun.   But there's a big different to me in the 4k range as the flies are more open and it can breathe.  Overall it's better.   I did a Delkovec slip on at the same time as the SISF flash, and that made a big difference to me, I could feel the weight change in the maneuverability and also the sound was way different, obviously.  I knew I wouldn't get power when I did it, it was for looks and sound, but had the added benefit of a weight difference for the better that I could actually feel.  Also, it seemed to get smoother.  Overall the 2 changes made a big difference for me and I'm very happy I did them.

And I really like the stock suspension, it seems to work well (for me) in both cruising mode and being very aggressive (trips to redline, riding on the edge of the tire etc).  I have swapped suspension on a bike before because I hated it.  My 2008 Speed Triple rode like a log wagon (damper rod fork) in both front and rear. I sent it to Traxxion Dynamics and spent $1600 on the AK20's and a shock revalve/respring.  I ended up sending it back 3x, they never did get it soft enough.   I would not recommend them.  I told them 2x it's too stiff and if it was me, I would err on the side of too soft after already reworking it 2x AFTER the first go around. Nope, still too stiff.  Fun bike but a frost heave will deliver a shock to your spine that is very unpleasant.  Yes, I set the sag and yes I tried the clickers.  And no, it's not so soft it's bottoming and that makes it feel stiff.  And I am aware a short wheelbase bike rides rougher when compared to a long wheelbase bike.
2012 "root beer" C14 - unlinked brakes, reflash, LED headlights, Walmart orange city lights, LOUD horn, Laam seat, radar detector for ahem, reasons.
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Offline DaddyFlip

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Re: ECU flashing now available
« Reply #359 on: July 06, 2016, 12:31:54 PM »
I got 52 mpg in ECO mode coming back from Montana to Peoria last weekend.   I spent most of the time in OD and ECO mode.  When I had to make zippy passes, I would drop to 5th and out of ECO mode as it's soft in the low rpm range due to the flies not opening. 

It's pretty stinking quick in ECO mode and OD though, I really did it more for fun.

It sounds like you are speaking of the three light circles rather than the big black square. IOW, you are referencing the Economical Riding Indicator rather than Fuel Economy Assistance Mode. Unless you were changing gears AND modes at the same time. Just wondering.
2001 ZR-7s "Ol' Red"
1995 FXDWG