Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: jrcruisin on September 17, 2013, 01:36:07 AM
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Hello!
I have a 86 Connie 1000 that I recently bought off Craigslist. I have a Clymer's manual and I'm going through it before I take it out on a road trip. I've taken off all the fairings, seat, and gas tank. I had to replace 2 hoses just because they were old.
I can't find this in my manual. there are 2 hoses between the 1&2 Carb. and the 3&4 ...conjoined by a" T" that is open, does it need a hose .. (where does that one go?) Am I missing a hose? ..because it backfired on me a time or two.
My fuel tank has 3 nipples ..The 2 on the on the right are going to the liquid/vapor separator. What's the left nip for? I've read the diagram and it has 2 different pics. It's been running w/ the way it is.. just not right and I need it right!
So I do have 2 questions ..I know I'm a Newbie but, I'm looking for a little love ... I will give it right back! Any thought's?
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I think the two hoses at the carbs are vent lines. They should point upwards and would each connect to a clear hose that is held by a clip on the frame near where the big rubber block that the gas tank rests on. If this is what your are talking about, it would not cause your backfire. Look for a vacuum leak (which you might have according to the next paragraph). Also check that the carb boots are on securely.
Your tank sounds like the CA version. I do know that one of the nipples sticking out is to drain the fill neck incase of an overflow or water coming in around outside of the gas cap. All of the bikes have this one. The other two nipples are related to emissions for the CA bikes.
If you had the plug wires off, did you reinstall them on correctly? Firing order is 1-2-4-3, not 1-2-3-4. One coil connects 1 & 4, the other connects 2 & 3. This could cause a backfire if it even starts.
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If you had the plug wires off, did you reinstall them on correctly? Firing order is 1-2-4-3, not 1-2-3-4. One coil connects 1 & 4, the other connects 2 & 3. This could cause a backfire if it even starts.
Coil on the left side of the frame goes to # 1 on the left and # 4 on the right and the coil wire is black....
Coil on the right side of the frame goes to # 2 and # 3 in the middle and the coil wire is green...
Each coil share a red wire this provides the constant switched (+) power and the black and green wires are the (-) trigger...
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Thanks for the advice! ..I really appreciate every input I receive. I really hope they aren't vent lines ..I stuck a screw in a
piece of hose and capped it!
If you have the clymer's manual I'm referring to page 252 fig. 32. I usually don't mess w/ firing order
when I'm talking about carbs.
I haven't put it back together yet! I have a friend that's an "Old School" mechanic ..he usually has good advice. I'm going
to sleep on it! ..any thoughts?
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From the looks of your picture I'm guessing that your talking about the tee'ed line with the bolt stuck in it? Where do the lines hook up to? It looks as though they both connect to the "front" side of the carbs on the vacuum ports and surely should not have been left open and could have been a cause for some backfire issues. I'm not up to speed on a CA Smog equipped bike and its extra items. But lets break it down to this on the front side of the carbs there could be 4 small brass nipples these are all vacuum ports and are used to operate the vacuum operated petcock as well as the devise that allows air to enter the exhaust thus leaning it out; follow the large hose that leaves the front side of the air box and follow it to the round devise that has 2 hoses coming from the valve cover this is the system that emits air to the exhaust. It should be plugged into one of the carb vacuum ports. Make sure that any and all of your vacuum lines are in good shape and not sucking air as this can cause idle and back fire issues. Myself I do not like to see unused capped tee's and such as they are not needed and clutter up the cramped engine compt.
Two connections on the back side of the tank closest to the seat are for your carbon can and the other 3rd nipple if you were to blow in it you would find that it is simply a drain for the gas cap area in case of fuel spillage while fueling or water run off when washing etc so you want a hose routed under the bike for that.
There should also be two hoses one on the side of # 1 & # 4 that are simply routed in a graceful U upward back and down closest to the outboard frame member and left open these as vent tubes for equalizing the carbs to atmosphere.
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You know what looking at the picture again it does appear that the line that you plugged up is in fact the carb vent lines that someone has muddled around with and if so it NEEDS to be open and properly routed up and over that air box and running gently toward the back of the bike and down toward the swingarm area.
Sorry for the small pic its all I have at hand but if you look closely you can see the yellow/clear line this is the carb vent lines.
CA bikes may have run these carb vents to the carbon can as nothing was allowed to vent to atmosphere.
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Here's some images from the factory shop manual that may help...
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One more pic...
The vent tube is the orangish one in the center. There is a twin one on the otherside of the bike.
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The black hose he capped is the cali version of the carb vent. Capping it will cause the carbs to be unable to fill or draw fuel. Backfire? Maybe while cranking , but it will not run at all with the vents capped . HTH, Steve
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Thank's guys for all the help!
I'm taking that cap off! ..I posted a better pic. of it. I still don't know about the 3 nips on my tank? It's been routed as N goes to the
top of the Liquid/separator and M goes to the bottom where it say's tank.
So what's up w/ "O" it had no hose! ..nothing. It was covered up by a cover. I saw 2 different diagrams in the manual. Should it be open? ..leave it be?
I hate asking for free advice ..I will have to buy some beers or something if we were to meet up!
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OK, here's some more advice. After you read it, send me money so you feel better!
On the tank vents, the cali bikes have all those vents, and they're not needed. Here's what I suggest. Open the gas cap and then blow into the hoses / tank nipples you showed. One will blow air up out the hole in the overflow area under the gas cap. leave that one open to drain if you overfill. block the other 2.
PM me for my paypal address. Everyone who read this and learned something, it's free for you ;D Steve
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Man every time you post another picture under the hood of that bike ya see more hoses going here and there...
First of get rid of those dam twisted pieces of copper wire being used as hose clamps as all those are good for is blood letting; if the hoses don't fit good then get rid of them all for some that do fit good.
You need one 5/16" fuel line that comes out from the center of the carb bank and goes to the fuel tank.
You need the two small loopy hoses that join the air cut valves together between 1 & 2 and 3 & 4.
You need two carb vent lines that gently drape over the air box and down slightly; they are easy to find as one T joins carb 1 and 2 together and the other T joins carb 3 and 4 together.
You need one vacuum line coming from one of the brass nipples on the outlet side of the carb going to the vac port on the petcock.
Cap the 3 remaining vac port nipples remaining on the carbs.
You need one line coming from the gas cap drain nipple on the back of the tank going down to the swing arm area.
Plug the remaining two nipples on the back of the fuel tank.
Remove all remaining traces and tangles of the carbon vent can.
Remove and cap off all remaining traces of the air injection system; you will need two 1/2" rubber caps to go on the valve cover and something to plug the hole in the front of the air box, I used a 1/2" pipe plug.
Your bike will thank you for it........ Simple and clean.....
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Now there's a fastener elitist. You even use SS to cap your fuel line. :-)
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Now there's a fastener elitist. You even use SS to cap your fuel line. :-)
Ha.... You picked up on that; but it's not my bike!
But I have used 6 mm button head SS and nibs of hose to make short vacuum caps.
I'll freely admit that I'm sic and that I've replaced just about every fastener I can on my bike with SS or some billet milled alum....
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I know this is an old post, but I've got a Cal bike so I thought I'd throw in a suggestion. You can plug the far right and far left nipples. However, the far right nipple (facing the rear of the tank) is the tank vent, and if the tank has the original fuel cap it probably has the little o-ring installed which seals the fuel cap tank vent to that far right nipple. Check the exploded view of the tank cap assembly (See attached doc) and you'll find a CAL designation for the o-ring located in the tank cap ring which is attached to the fuel tank. The cap has a small pointy vent nipple which seals into that o-ring when the cap is closed. If you want to cap the nipple at the end of the tank, you have to remove the o-ring. The far left nipple is a fuel return line from the emission fuel return pump. It theoretically could also be used for a tank vent but if you drop your bike, I'd bet you would see fuel freely flowing out of it.
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I don't think capping the far right nibble on the end of the gas tank is a good idea, Today i removed the Canister Separator and if i was to cap the far right nipple then while refueling gas could overflow over the top of the tank instead of out overflow line.
am i correct on this? chime in
:feedback:
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Jet, you are correct and I wouldn't...
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Now since i have done away with ALL emission stuff could this solve the problem i have with the bike not wanting to run when i fill my tank, the last time i filled my tank the bike did not want to run til i opened the gas cap but then i seen gas erupting/pulsing like a volcano from that overflow line, i'm thinking the caninster got flooded and with all the stupid lines and pressure it was doing something silly with the carbs making the bike not want to run.
That was very dangerous because when i was riding the bike i had the gas cap down but not locked and the first time i hit my brakes a little to much gas went flying out of the tank right over the top and onto the engine and every where, i'm lucky me and my bike did not turn into a fireball.
:doh:
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Run a hose from the nipple down the frame past the foot peg. None Ca bikes have the hose this way.
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it still has the stock hose that went to the canister but its to short now without the canister there so i will get a longer one, i want to run it behind the rear tire.
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Please correct me if I'm wrong. I thought non-cal fuel tanks had only 1 nipple. It did not vent the tank. It was the drain line for anything that might get into the well surrounding the fuel cap. :-\
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Please correct me if I'm wrong. I thought non-cal fuel tanks had only 1 nipple. It did not vent the tank. It was the drain line for anything that might get into the well surrounding the fuel cap. :-\
That would be correct. The cap does the venting - it is only supposed to let air in so fuel can go to the carbs. Oneway diaphram construction. Under heat pressure, air does escape from the cap giving the bike the "singing" when she is parked. As far as I know, the drain line is the nipple slightly to the right side of center on the rear of the tank. You should be able to blow into it and feel air at the gas cap. The vent line I believe goes down the right side of the engine to exit at the swing arm (below by a few inches).
Follow this advice from T-Cro (if not all of it):
You need one line coming from the gas cap drain nipple on the back of the tank going down to the swing arm area.
Plug the remaining two nipples on the back of the fuel tank.
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Jet86,
If you remove the o-ring/grommet from the fuel tank cap ring (see attached doc from previous post), you've essentially set up your tank as a 49-state version (and you'll get to hear it sing). You can then cap the far right nipple. The center nipple is the overflow/spill well drain and should go just behind the trans so it can discharge to the ground. Absolutely cap the far left nipple, tightly!
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Jet86,
If you remove the o-ring/grommet from the fuel tank cap ring (see attached doc from previous post), you've essentially set up your tank as a 49-state version (and you'll get to hear it sing). You can then cap the far right nipple. The center nipple is the overflow/spill well drain and should go just behind the trans so it can discharge to the ground. Absolutely cap the far left nipple, tightly!
Actually all caps are the same no matter if 49er or CA model.... All gas caps let air in but not out; this "can" cause pressure when heated and thus the tea kettle like sounds as well as near flooding like behavior. I long ago removed the little orange stopper looking piece inside my fuel cap, don't remember if I removed anything else though. Some folks complain of fuel smell while riding after doing this "mod" myself I've noticed or cared.....
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Yes, the caps are the same but the cap vent nipple, where the air vents to atmosphere, seats into a grommet in the cap ring when the cap is closed on the cal tanks. Capping the nipple at the rear of the tank, with that grommet in place, will seal the tank.
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Yes, the caps are the same but the cap vent nipple, where the air vents to atmosphere, seats into a grommet in the cap ring when the cap is closed on the cal tanks. Capping the nipple at the rear of the tank, with that grommet in place, will seal the tank.
Got ya... Never gave it too much thought as to what other function the spillage drain might perform as I simply blew air through the nipple first time around to discover where it went. For some reason I was under the impression that the vent worked through the keyhole itself as there have been a few riders that developed venting issues from a tightly fitted tank bag; but they may have also had a drain hose issue too.....
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Purely hypothisizing here because i haven't actually seen one. I think ALL of the caps have the standard oneway vent and were built the same. In addition, the bikes sold or sent to CA for sale as "new" had an additional grommet of some sorts pushed in or suck inside the underside of the gas cap. I'm sure in someway this "sealed" the venting of the cap and caused the canister to take the vapor pressure instead of the atmostsphere.
And yes, I had mine apart to rekey it. They vent right up thru the key hole. A little red seal and a bunch of channels for the vapors.
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now i'm a little confused, this is how i have it set up, i got some rubber caps from autozone and caped 3 carb nipple only leaving the 1 line for the petcock vacuum, then i caped the 2 nipples on the tank leaving the fare right line in place so if i over fill it with gas it will run to the ground and not all over the top of my tank.
the bike is running ok so fare.
PS. when i opened the tank cap i did see this little metal round pointy nipple that seals the drain hose once the cap is closed, i did not try to remove it.
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According to the diagram I attached above from the manual, the more central hose (and slightly to the right) is the "water drain". I think the other hose nipples have an OEM colored stripe or tape on them (sometimes)? You may have blocked the wrong one. Perhaps the one you are using is the vapor return hose from the canister and comes into the tank neck up at the cap also and is working OK. Again, just guessing on the vapor line.
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tomorrow i will look at the gas cap again but i dont remember seeing any other hoses under the gas cap.
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It may actually exit into the tank just under and inside the fill neck. It would be somewhere within the sealed (pressure) area of the gas tank, most likely just inside the gas cap but below the filler neck rim. It might be something you can't really "see". It could just be a slot or something (pin hole)as only vapors are supposed to go thru - not fuel. I have a CA parts bike in my shed but can't get to at the moment. Interesting.
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RFH87, you are correct. The center nipple is the water drain from the well where the cap seats.
JET86, get a hose, connect to the center nipple and blow through it with your fuel cap closed. You will hear air escaping from around the cap. That's good. Run that line to the ground. Put the hose on the far right nipple and blow into it with the cap closed. You will feel resistance but still be able to blow into it. I don't remember feeling any air escaping from the cap key hole on mine but your will hear air inside the tank. This is the nipple to leave uncapped if you are not going to remove the grommet which seals the pointy nipple on the cap. Open the cap and connect your hose to the pointy nipple on the cap and blow again. You feel/hear air from the holes on the bottom of the cap. The left nipple should be capped. If you blow into it you will hear the air escaping into the tank, somewhere. This is the fuel return line for the pump you removed.
[/quote]
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So the middle nipple at end of tank is the fuel overflow correct? and the fare right nipple is for anything else like water/fuel.
right now i have a hose on both nipples run to the ground and capped the fare left nipple.
pics
is that little slit inside the tank the fuel overflow?/ center nipple?' i did use the hose and blew threw each nipple but could only feel air coming out where the pointy thing seats into. but i did hear the air inside the tank like you said.
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looking down at the rear of the tank;
The left hand hose is the fuel return hose, it has a red dot or tape on it, and was connected to the liquid / vapor separator down low.
The middle hose is the Water drain hose, no tape color on it, it runs down and back alongside the coolant overflow hose, and terminates at the rear axle. It drains water that accumulates in the cap area OUTSIDE of the cap to tank seal gasket.
The right hand hose is a tank breather hose, which runs from that grommeted nipple inside the cap, down to the liquid / vapor separator. it has a blue tape/ dot.
leave the middle hose attached, and running down to the axle to drain water.
connect the left and right hand hoses with a short piece of the appropriate size hose.
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MAN OF BLUES,
Since the Cal version tank gas cap is sealed by the grommet the cap nipple sticks into, won't connecting the return (Red) and vent (blue) together effectively seal the tank? It sounds like neither his or my gas caps vent to the atmosphere through the key hole.
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yes
this is why I said to run a hose between them.
My 86 was a cali bike. this was what I did, as I didn't like having plugs installed, the rubber breaks down faster than the hose does.
if you ever decide to disassemble a cap, you will find that the shroud the latch lives in is vented thru that nipple, which in turn used to connect to the vapor thing you removed. Connecting that line right back into the one on the left, just makes a "closed circuit".
none of the tanks have any venting thru the keyhole. that area is completely sealed.
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Ok. Now I'm confused. So if it's a closed circuit, when the gas leaves the tank through the petcock, how do you prevent a vacuum from building in the tank? Or, is there a vent to atmosphere I'm missing?
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RELAX... STOP ANALYZING...
;) ;) ;) 8)
RESPONSE #23
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=15181.msg205724#msg205724 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=15181.msg205724#msg205724)
There is a one way valve with an opening to atmosphere in the cap shroud.
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Thanks for reeling me in. I'm sure there's a pill I could take for that. :deadhorse:
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These are not my pictures. I think maybe SIG or someone else was doing a re-keying and took some pretty good pictures. There are 15 pictures in all - if you want all of them, shoot me an email to send them to. The orange "thing" is the oneway valve/flapper if I recall correctly. You can also trace the channels out to hopefully give you a better idea of what is going on inside the gas cap relating to venting. There's a lot going on in there.
Thanks MOB for clarifying some of my assumptions. Hopefully I didn't create more confusion with pictures.