Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: RandyN on May 06, 2013, 08:03:19 pm

Title: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on May 06, 2013, 08:03:19 pm
I have accomplished what I set out to do, which is to eliminate the rear link to the front and the ABS system. The first thing I tried was to plug the holes on the ABS block and replace the rear line with a straight line from Galfer, see "block plugged" photo. After a test ride of hard braking and trying to engage the ABS on the front tire, the "ABS Error!" flashed on the display. I think what happens in that situation is the computer can sense that no fluid pressure is being allowed to go out of the ABS block to the rear brakes. Next I reattached some of the rear brake lines and then put my bleeder plugs into those lines, see "hoses plugged" photo. I attached clear hoses to those bleeder fittings and flushed the lines with a vacuum pump. I'm not sure if I got all the air out or not but the brakes feel fine. 

I then test rode it again and everything works as expected. ABS on the front works perfectly. Under sudden braking at about 40mph I felt the ABS trigger and pulsate down to a stop. No more sudden braking and diving unexpectedly when applying front and rear together. The brakes feel perfect to me know. I then found some wet pavement (didn't want to ruin new tires on dry pavement) and locked up the rear several times to make sure that it wouldn't trigger an "Error" on the display. No problem. I think it is my solution.

The plugs that I used, see "bleeder plug" photo, were obtained from Galfer when I bought my rear Stainless line. The plugs needed to have a slight bevel machined into it to look like the original flare fitting to mate and seal properly, see "Flare fitting" photo. All we did was put it on a lathe and machine it with a 90 degree drill bit so that the plug had a 45 degree edge on it. It might be accomplished by putting it in a vise and using a drill bit of your own to make the concave surface. The material is chrome plated brass and I don't think it needs to be a perfect fit. It will deform to fit and seal on its own most likely. Just don't make the bevel too deep. You don't want the plug to bottom out before hitting the cone first where it will seal.

After having done it all I have realized that I could have left the original lines in place, disconnected them at the spot under the tank, plugged them as I did and bought one more flexible line like one of the ones in the photo "Hoses plugged". I would then loop it to connect the rear master cylinder to the caliper using the existing lines that were left in place but had been disconnected from the flexible ones in the photo. 
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: The Pope on May 07, 2013, 03:49:44 am
Thanks for all of your hard work!  :chugbeer:
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: VirginiaJim on May 07, 2013, 04:23:05 am
Thanks for the writeup!
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Cuda on May 07, 2013, 04:45:11 am
I'd rather stop like Fred Flintstone
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: jonathan on May 07, 2013, 09:00:01 am
Quote:  After having done it all I have realized that I could have left the original lines in place, disconnected them at the spot under the tank, plugged them as I did and bought one more flexible line like one of the ones in the photo "Hoses plugged". I would then loop it to connect the rear master cylinder to the caliper using the existing lines that were left in place but had been disconnected from the flexible ones in the photo.

I am having trouble following this explanation. Could you put it another way?
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: alexx45 on May 07, 2013, 09:46:04 am
Quote:  After having done it all I have realized that I could have left the original lines in place, disconnected them at the spot under the tank, plugged them as I did and bought one more flexible line like one of the ones in the photo "Hoses plugged". I would then loop it to connect the rear master cylinder to the caliper using the existing lines that were left in place but had been disconnected from the flexible ones in the photo.

I am having trouble following this explanation. Could you put it another way?
OK I thought maybe it was just me.  ???
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 07, 2013, 10:31:51 am
Help!  My brain! First off, thanks for all your efforts, especially while being sick.  I want to do this also and only have a bazillion questions, not sure if you have the answers but here goes

1) Is there a drawing of the ABS box dealio in your pictures and the lines coming out of them and what they do/where they go (in stock form)?

2) Can you make a drawing of how you did it originally so we can understand it conceptually?

3) Can you make a drawing of how you THINK you could have done it?  This question/issue appears to have confused others too, so I don't feel quite so dumb.

4) Is your ole lady free this weekend?  I figured I already asked for a ton, might as well go for the whole deal. Besides, if you draw all this up, you'll be busy anyway?

Here's the picture of the ABS module

Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on May 07, 2013, 12:09:37 pm
My drawing skills suck but here you go. Instead of the fluid pressure going through the ABS block it is going through the new line in between the two existing metal lines that will now be joined under the seat. If you remove you seat and tank (about a 15 minute job for most) you will be able to understand how the lines will run. If you look at the second photo, "hoses plugged", you will see in the lower right corner a metal plate with a bunch of ground wires connected to it. Originally the flexible rubber brake lines joined with the metal lines right there and were held down by that metal plate and a piece of rubber. 
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 07, 2013, 12:37:22 pm
More questions of course.

1) Your high end fancy CAD CAM drawing actually does the trick pretty good, it gets the point across and makes it WAY more clear, so thanks for that. But is the 2nd picture (modified setup) the way you actually did it? Or the way you said you discovered that it could be done?

2) I think you mentioned this but I don't understand.  You said you plugged the 2 lines that go to/from the caliper and the master cylinder AT THE ABS box but the system threw an error?  But you plugged the lines at the end of the rubber hoses and it's fine?  If I am understanding this correctly (always a risk with my limited intelligence), I can't see why adding the foot long dead end rubber lines would make a difference, as opposed to just plugging them at the ABS module?

This is AWESOME. I can't wait to tear into mine.  New tires going on, a Guhl reflash and this and I will be READY, baby.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on May 07, 2013, 12:58:29 pm
Your right. At first I just plugged it at the block as in the photo "block plugged" that is when I got the "ABS error" flashing on display. I then put the rubber lines back in place and terminated them as in the photo "hoses plugged" and all is well. So the second photo "hoses plugged" is the way I ended up. I think the reason it works this way is that when you apply front brake, the system tries to send some pressure to the rear and if it is plugged at the block the pressure has nowhere to go. With the rubber hoses on there I'm guessing that it allows some expansion of the line and movement of the fluid and the system thinks it is applying rear brake action.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: northsouth on May 08, 2013, 08:13:40 pm
RandyN, you da' man! Thanks very much for your research and hard work. Will be copying your setup asap- Good-bye crappy linked brakes! Hello safe and fun riding!
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on May 08, 2013, 08:54:17 pm
Good-bye crappy linked brakes! Hello safe and fun riding!

I think you mean "Good-bye crappy linked brakes and also useful rear ABS"
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: stevewfl on May 08, 2013, 10:20:37 pm
I think you mean "Good-bye crappy linked brakes and also useful rear ABS"

^^^that
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Kinetic1 on May 09, 2013, 03:33:45 am
I'm with you guys, I really would rather not give up the ABS. I've learned to deal with the crappy linked brakes enough that it doesn't merrit digging into it anymore.
That being said I'm still pretty sure if you cut the blue wire it would stop the linking dealio. You may have to wire in a resistor or something so it doesn't throw a light but I still think it will work.....maybe. If I get really ambitious I will try to pull the wire out of the harness plug and see what happens.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on May 09, 2013, 05:22:27 am
I'm with you guys, I really would rather not give up the ABS. I've learned to deal with the crappy linked brakes enough that it doesn't merrit digging into it anymore.
That being said I'm still pretty sure if you cut the blue wire it would stop the linking dealio. You may have to wire in a resistor or something so it doesn't throw a light but I still think it will work.....maybe. If I get really ambitious I will try to pull the wire out of the harness plug and see what happens.

I'm with you on that! If someone were to figure it out the way to clip a wire and unlink the brakes I would undo my "fix". I like having ABS on the rear, but it isn't a necessity. Front wheel lockup and the crash that could result from it is one of the things that makes me slow WAY down on wet roads.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on May 09, 2013, 05:49:28 am
I'm with you on that! [Not wanting to give up any ABS] If someone were to figure it out the way to clip a wire and unlink the brakes I would undo my "fix".

Unfortunately, based on my understanding of the theory of its design, it is simply not possible to have all ABS and no linking unless whatever controls both is reprogrammed.  If ti is the ECU, perhaps Guhl could do something, but I kinda doubt it.

If is beyond stupid that Kawasaki doesn't just allow more user control.  It would have cost them NOTHING to add two more modes (to the existing two modes)- even less linked, and "off".
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 09, 2013, 06:01:42 am
That being said I'm still pretty sure if you cut the blue wire it would stop the linking dealio.

What is this blue wire you speak of?  I'd be willing to mess with it to try if you can give me info.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: The Pope on May 09, 2013, 08:58:24 am
What is this blue wire you speak of?

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Kinetic1 on May 09, 2013, 12:31:04 pm
This is from memory so bear with me.
If you look at the wiring diagram for the brake system there is a blue wire that runs from the rear master cylinder up to the brake control module for ABS linking etc. That has to be the feed to tell the module to activate the front brake best I can figure. My theory is that if you cut said blue wire (sacriledge to cut a wire in a harness it needs pulled out of it's connnector not cut which is why I haven't tried it yet) it SHOULD unlink the brake. I do not know what effect it will have on the ABS, if any though.
Again, just a theory and an untried one at that.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: stewart on May 09, 2013, 12:50:10 pm
Is there a picture with a big arrow I can use? I'd give this a try!!!!!

Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: The Pope on May 09, 2013, 01:07:12 pm
This is from memory so bear with me.
If you look at the wiring diagram for the brake system there is a blue wire that runs from the rear master cylinder up to the brake control module for ABS linking etc. That has to be the feed to tell the module to activate the front brake best I can figure. My theory is that if you cut said blue wire (sacriledge to cut a wire in a harness it needs pulled out of it's connnector not cut which is why I haven't tried it yet) it SHOULD unlink the brake. I do not know what effect it will have on the ABS, if any though.
Again, just a theory and an untried one at that.

That's the wire (Blue w/red stripe) for the brake light. And yes it does go to the ABS Control Module, but it also goes to the light. There's also a Black wire that comes off of the rear brake, it also goes to the ABS Control Module. It's a ground wire.

So.... if you want to test this all out, just unplug the switch on the rear brake peddle. I don't think that this will unlink the brakes, but you will not have and brake lights when you brake only with the rear.  :o
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: wildnphx on May 09, 2013, 01:11:31 pm
The fix to Linked Brakes is very simple you guys over over complicating this.  Here is a picture of the fix...    ;D
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: VirginiaJim on May 09, 2013, 01:51:10 pm
Which Wire to Cut? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vndItQFTCLk#)
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: stewart on May 09, 2013, 02:28:58 pm
That's the wire (Blue w/red stripe) for the brake light. And yes it does go to the ABS Control Module, but it also goes to the light. There's also a Black wire that comes off of the rear brake, it also goes to the ABS Control Module. It's a ground wire.

So.... if you want to test this all out, just unplug the switch on the rear brake peddle. I don't think that this will unlink the brakes, but you will not have and brake lights when you brake only with the rear.  :o


Yeah I doubt this will work. I just look at the wiring diagram and I can't imagine how a brake switch or light would unlink the brakes. While thinking about in the car 30mins ago, the linking is pressure controlled not via some switch so this must happen inside the ABS unit itself. Without a service manual and additional details of the inside of the unit I suspect the current solution is the best most likely.

http://www.cog-online.org/clubportal/clubdocs/1328/C14_2010_Wire_Diag.pdf (http://www.cog-online.org/clubportal/clubdocs/1328/C14_2010_Wire_Diag.pdf)
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Cuda on May 09, 2013, 07:45:13 pm
I'm sure glad my bike CAME with fixed brakes
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: northsouth on May 09, 2013, 07:55:09 pm
I think you mean "Good-bye crappy linked brakes and also useful rear ABS"

Yes you are correct. I've been riding and racing all sorts of motorcycles for more than 30 years (not trying to brag, just facts)and I can't remember a single time when the rear brakes ever put me down. I just learned how to use them instead. Maybe this mod isn't for everyone, but for someone who likes to have more control over all aspects of the ride, and not be surprised by weird braking inputs, I'm all in for this mod.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 09, 2013, 08:46:08 pm
... but for someone who likes to have more control over all aspects of the ride, and not be surprised by weird braking inputs, I'm all in for this mod.

And that would be me.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on May 09, 2013, 09:16:59 pm
It does seem that a few people are annoyed by the brakes. Either some have it and others don't or maybe some learn to live with it or adapt. The brakes on it should not have been designed to be so far out of the normal parameters of modern motorcycle technology as to force us, the consumers, to have to change our riding technique or modify the bike. I love the bike except for the "weirdness" of the brakes. I hope Kawasaki will fix it in the future and be able to apply a fix to all that are effected, mine included.

I hope my mod will help others enjoy this great motorcycle. Do me and others a favor and speak up.

Here is a way to push them. Complain! Kawasaki USA contact info (949) 770-0400 and 866-802-9381

File a complaint with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration!!
https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Glennn on May 09, 2013, 10:46:40 pm
I would pay someone to do this for me.  Curse all of you on the wrong side of the pond.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: The Pope on May 10, 2013, 04:08:39 am
..... the linking is pressure controlled not via some switch so this must happen inside the ABS unit itself. Without a service manual and additional details of the inside of the unit I suspect the current solution is the best most likely.

The service manual doesn't give ANY details of the inner workings of the ABS Control Unit. The only way to find out is to take one apart. I've been looking on ebay, but all of the ones that I'm seeing listed are for the 08's & 09's.

Ok... I've been thinking about this issue some more.  :o  :banghead:  :stirpot:

I’m thinking that if you tie the two lines at the ABS unit that go to the front brakes together with a "T" or "Y" fitting. Then tie from the other side of the "T" or "Y" fitting to the front port of the ABS unit and block off the 2nd port for the front, you "may" un-link the breaks AND still have ABS to both wheels. The reason I think that the second port of the ABS Control Unit from the front of the bike should be the one blocked is because that port isn't there on the ABS Control Unit of C-14's that don't have linked brakes (2008-09 ABS models (can't remember if the linked brakes started with 2010 or 2011?)). My reasoning behind this is I “think” that one of the lines that feeds one of the front calipers is common (fluid path wise) with the rear.

 Now this may only unlink for what is called the low link setting (less aggressive setting) as the high link setting (I believe) sends fluid to both front calipers when the rear is applied.

Anyway, this is just my theory and without having an ABS Control Unit out of the bike to look at its inner workings, it's only a theory.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: C1xRider on May 10, 2013, 10:26:20 am
The service manual doesn't give ANY details of the inner workings of the ABS Control Unit. The only way to find out is to take one apart. I've been looking on ebay, but all of the ones that I'm seeing listed are for the 08's & 09's.

Ok... I've been thinking about this issue some more.  :o  :banghead:  :stirpot:

I’m thinking that if you tie the two lines at the ABS unit that go to the front brakes together with a "T" or "Y" fitting. Then tie from the other side of the "T" or "Y" fitting to the front port of the ABS unit and block off the 2nd port for the front, you "may" un-link the breaks AND still have ABS to both wheels. The reason I think that the second port of the ABS Control Unit from the front of the bike should be the one blocked is because that port isn't there on the ABS Control Unit of C-14's that don't have linked brakes (2008-09 ABS models (can't remember if the linked brakes started with 2010 or 2011?)). My reasoning behind this is I “think” that one of the lines that feeds one of the front calipers is common (fluid path wise) with the rear.

 Now this may only unlink for what is called the low link setting (less aggressive setting) as the high link setting (I believe) sends fluid to both front calipers when the rear is applied.

Anyway, this is just my theory and without having an ABS Control Unit out of the bike to look at its inner workings, it's only a theory.

That's a very good theory, at least to unlink the front when applying the rear brakes.  Since the '10 and newer only apply pressure to the right front calliper when applying pressure to the rear, that "should" remove it from the equation.  I can vouch for that last sentence because my right rotor is thinner than my left rotor, probably because I've been running in "High Combined" mode exclusively for the last 25K+ miles, and I *use* my brakes.

As for unlinking the rear when the front brakes are applied, I don't see how this would solve it, but since the rear doesn't seem to be as obnoxiously linked as the fronts, it may be acceptable. 

This is a worthwhile enough idea, that I'm going to look around and see if I have the parts.  I hate opening up the brake system (due to the chance of introducing air bubbles that don't want to leave), but like many, I dislike the linked brakes even more.

After reading this last night, I was wondering about simply using an ABS unit from an 08/09.  Has anyone looked into that?
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: VirginiaJim on May 10, 2013, 12:40:21 pm
You can't have mine.  I like it.

Seems the 08/09 bikes are going up in value....
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Kinetic1 on May 10, 2013, 12:49:26 pm
I highly doubt the combined/ linked effect is a function of pressure. That would be way too inconsistent to meet Kawasaki's standards. I am betting it is electrical in nature. Just a hunch.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 12, 2013, 11:20:53 am
I emailed Guhl about a reflash and asked about killing the linked brakes. He said it wasn't in the engine ECU. There may be other ECU's but I doubt there is knowledge of them like there is of the engine, as people mod the engine ECU all the time, thus there is a market for it and detailed knowledge of it.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 12, 2013, 11:22:30 am
Can I get a parts list to do this mod, Randy?  I am ready to start tearing into this.  I will be guinea pig #2, which is way easier than guinea pig #1.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on May 12, 2013, 11:58:50 am
I can't exactly say a parts list other than it was 2 in Qty. of an M10 x 1.0 bleeder adapter plus a rear brake line from a non ABS C-14 to go straight from rear master cylinder to caliper. I got it all from Galfer. See photo. Remember, it has to have an inverted flare to mate properly. The flare I did myself on a lathe, but a regular drill could be used. I'd say get an extra in case you goof one.

I am in the process of trying to decide exactly how to do another variation where The Pope mentioned splitting the line that goes to left front caliper so it goes to both and then blocking the right front line out of the ABS block. I think I'll have to have a custom line made. Dong this, in theory, should give me back ABS on the rear when I reconnect the rear lines. I find it all interesting to play with.

I forgot about the possibility of not replacing the rear line but to disconnect it from the ABS block and to connect the original lines together with another hose section (part # 43095-0559). It would probably be easier to do it that way than to pull all the stock rear brake lines out.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 12, 2013, 08:50:06 pm
You say you "got it from Galfer".  Galfer only deals with dealers, not straight with individuals?   Or did you just call them up?

Here's a screenshot of the Ron Ayers site of a 2010 non-ABS rear master cylinder, note the hose goes from the rear caliper to the top of the master cylinder (A)
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 12, 2013, 09:28:38 pm
Here's a 2012. Note that the fluid goes from the rear caliper, up to "northwest" then goes into hard line C, which attaches to the ABS module

Out of the ABS module comes line B, which attaches to the top of the master cylinder
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on May 13, 2013, 10:06:13 am
Yes, I got the part from Galfer. I assumed they sold direct and they did. The part I bought was about $55 and the OEM at RIVA's site is $95.08. After reconsidering how I did it I think it could be done more easily. Check out the drawing "ZG1400 alt1" I've attached. That way of doing it fixes the brake issue but you end up with no rear ABS.

 In the second drawing "ZG1400 front brakes" I am going to try to have a custom made hose to connect both front calipers to the left output off the ABS block and then plug the right output with a rubber hose with a bleeder valve on the end to remove air from the line. The rear brake lines would remain stock. That way of doing it should have ABS in front and rear. Who knows if it will work though? I haven't called around yet on having the hose made so I'm not sure of cost and even if it can be done.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 13, 2013, 10:22:55 am
Regarding your first fix, why did you bevel/mill the bleeder plugs?  Was it leaking before you machined it? 

I am wondering if buying new regular bleeders wil fix that? Or maybe speed bleeders?
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on May 13, 2013, 10:53:34 am
No they didn't leak. I never even tried using them before I machined them. If you look at the attached photo "flare fitting" you will understand why I did it. They have to mate up with their opposite which is a convex flare inside a female threaded fitting. The bleeder adapter in the photo you will notice has a flat base and I didn't think it would seal without the concave flare. These were the only option that I found from Galfer. I suppose I could have searched more, but I got impatient.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: The Pope on May 28, 2013, 04:05:27 am
Any updates on this?

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on May 28, 2013, 08:31:37 am
Yes, I installed the custom line splitting the left front brake line out of the ABS block and blocked the right front line out of ABS. I reinstalled the rear brake line as per normal setup. I've been testing it to make sure all is functioning normally and so far it seems right. I have ABS in the rear and I have ABS in the front. The problem that existed before which was when you were applying front brake and were to just touch the rear making it all of a sudden grab more front brake is gone. I can still feel that the rear brake pedal is effected by the front, but it isn't noticeably changing the braking characteristics other than the rear pedal feels a little stiffer when holding the front.

Overall I'm pretty sure I like the fix because I have ABS in both wheels now. With my other fix I liked the feel of the front lever and rear pedal better, but didn't have ABS in the rear. I just have to make up my mind as to which way I will stay with.

The parts were obtained from Galfer and are a t-fitting and two lines at 16cm and 20cm. I would shorten the 16cm to probably 15cm(that's the one on the left in photo) because it seemed a little long. Attached is my order sheet also.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 28, 2013, 08:38:22 am
So are the brakes completely unlinked?  When you apply the front, do you get rear?  Or (more importantly to me), when you apply the rear, do you get ANY front brake at all?

I am just waiting to get this info to decide which way to go.  When I do, I will order parts and ship my ECU off to Guhl.  Already have a Sargent seat on order, so when done, I will have the 3 things I dislike (seat, limited low end power and godawful  linked brakes) FIXED.

Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on May 28, 2013, 08:58:26 am
When you apply the front brake it still applies the rear but when you apply the rear it doesn't apply the front because the line that is linked is the right line and it is blocked. You don't get that unexpected sudden application of more front when using the front then applying the rear. If that's what you are looking to get rid of it does it. Although, the rear pedal feel is effected by the front. If you were to apply only rear it feels normal. Then at another time you were to apply front then rear, you won't get the sudden dive and grab of more front brakes, but the rear does feel stiffer than when applying it by itself.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 28, 2013, 09:02:44 am
I really don't care a ton about rear brake feel when applying both.

Awesome, thanks for all your research and effort on this!  I am ordering parts ASAP.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 28, 2013, 09:09:07 am
Another question, how did you bleed all this?  If it's conventional bleeding technique, I will order some speed bleeders from Murph.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: The Pope on May 28, 2013, 09:51:03 am
When you apply the front brake it still applies the rear but when you apply the rear it doesn't apply the front because the line that is linked is the right line and it is blocked. You don't get that unexpected sudden application of more front when using the front then applying the rear. If that's what you are looking to get rid of it does it. Although, the rear pedal feel is effected by the front. If you were to apply only rear it feels normal. Then at another time you were to apply front then rear, you won't get the sudden dive and grab of more front brakes, but the rear does feel stiffer than when applying it by itself.

I presume this is with the "Low"  OO setting. If so, can you test it with the "High" (OO) setting?
I'm going to speculate that when the brakes are set to the "High" setting, they will still be linked.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on May 28, 2013, 10:28:57 am
Just got back from a ride here in Ft. Lauderdale, in the rain, and had a chance to test it some more. Tested mode 2 High (OO) setting while trying to lock up the brakes and could feel no difference from mode 1 Low OO setting. Brakes feel better than original.

I presume this is with the "Low"  OO setting. If so, can you test it with the "High" (OO) setting?
I'm going to speculate that when the brakes are set to the "High" setting, they will still be linked.

I hadn't thought of testing the link mode yet, but would assume it will have no effect on how much it changes it since the line(right front caliper line) that does the rear to front link is blocked. When applying the rear it goes through the ABS block then to the right front, which is now blocked so nothing goes from rear to front. When applying front the pressure goes from front master to ABS block then to rear and both front calipers. So, if you think about the routing of this the mode won't have any effect. Mode 2 is applying more pressure to right front.

As for bleeding it I just bled like I would normally. How I do it is to have a clear hose attached to a sealed plastic container with a line out on it for vacuum. I'll suck out all the fluid in the reservoir, refill it then attach the hose at each bleeder point and pump the lever a few times, hold it and release the pressure from the bleeder. I don't see the need for any speed bleeders at all. I can bleed the whole brake system in 15-20 minutes.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: The Pope on June 06, 2013, 05:46:12 pm
Any more updates? ;D
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on June 09, 2013, 07:08:40 pm
Sorry it took so long to reply. Been riding NC/TN/GA mountains and had no internet. Brakes worked fine throughout the whole ride, about 1000 miles of twisty stuff over a week period. The ABS works fine front and back. The link from front to back is still there but I don't get the dramatic and sudden braking of the front when also applying the rear at the same time. I do feel the rear affecting the front lever but it isn't too bad. I still like my previous fix which was to completely disconnect the rear from the ABS block and run a line from the rear master to the caliper directly. It has a better feel to it but of course no ABS for the back. I may switch it to that and give it another try.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: double a-ron on June 12, 2013, 07:17:05 am
Hello all. I just got a 2012 two weeks ago, so I decided to join the forum. It was this thread actually, that made me want to join. I am gathering the parts required to do this job and have some questions.

1) Why not bridge the two calipers together, then run ONE line to the abs manifold? Almost all sport bikes run this style setup, including my k6 gsxr1000.

2) I read in an earlier post that you spec the bleeder at M10 x 1.0, are the banjo bolts on the calipers the same thread pitch?

3) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe kawasaki is using the abs piston to control how much force is distributed to the front and rear. If this is so, this could be corrected with some kind of firmware update.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on June 12, 2013, 08:08:20 am
3) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe kawasaki is using the abs piston to control how much force is distributed to the front and rear. If this is so, this could be corrected with some kind of firmware update.

Yup, we kinda figured that.  But we would need to know what ECU the new flash file goes to, acquire that reconfigured flash file, get that flash file into it and test it. I have no idea how any of those things are accomplished, so we are forced to come up with a hardware solution. 

BTW, I do this stuff for a living on large yellow tractors.  I think having the linked braking amount should be something you should be able to 'tune' (adjust in a menu). It's SO easy, but Kawasaki chose to provide a terriblly configured system with no method of changing it. 
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on June 12, 2013, 09:01:41 am

1) Why not bridge the two calipers together, then run ONE line to the abs manifold? Almost all sport bikes run this style setup, including my k6 gsxr1000.
That is in effect what I have done by splitting the left line out of the ABS block the two front calipers are connected on one line. The right line out of ABS is the one that has pressure from rear brake fed to front.

2) I read in an earlier post that you spec the bleeder at M10 x 1.0, are the banjo bolts on the calipers the same thread pitch? I'm pretty sure that all are the same, although I didn't check it. If you need to know, I'm sure Galfer could tell you.

3) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe kawasaki is using the abs piston to control how much force is distributed to the front and rear. If this is so, this could be corrected with some kind of firmware update.That is what a lot of us are hoping for. Maybe if enough customers call and complain it might be fixed (Kawasaki service # (949) 770-0400)
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: The Pope on June 12, 2013, 09:26:48 am
1) Why not bridge the two calipers together, then run ONE line to the abs manifold? Almost all sport bikes run this style setup, including my k6 gsxr1000.
As RandyN has already stated, that is effectively what he did. With not knowing for sure that this would work, it was much easier to do it the way he did. Once we get this all figured out and if this is the answer, then getting a set of aftermarker ss break lines that are for a 2008/09 ABS equiped bike would be the route that most might take to do this mod.

Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: double a-ron on June 12, 2013, 11:53:20 am
I placed an order with galfer using randy's order form and pics. I agree this is the simplest way to accomplish this. I just thought the most efficient way would be to run a short line from the left caliper to the right caliper. Then run a single line to the abs manifold. That is why I asked about the caliper banjo bolt thread. The one on the right caliper would have to be replaced with a double banjo bolt. I figured, though, that randy's setup would be much easier to install and bleed, since most of the lines stay in place.

One more thing, I did 5 hard stops from 80 MPH to 0 using just the front lever. I then stopped and used an infrared gun to check the temp on the rear disk. It was only 100 degrees. Keep in mind, the outside temp here in Miami right now is over 90. My point? I don't think much, if any, force is applied to the rear. It's all rear to front. I also think another poster had it right: this was designed for stupid people that think the brake pedal is what is primarily used to stop a motorcycle. Ridiculous. 
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on June 12, 2013, 12:25:09 pm
It would be interesting to see what the temps would be if you did five hard stops using only the rear pedal. I would guess the rear would be the hottest followed by the right front and no rise at all on the left front.

If you can modify your order I would recommend shortening the 16cm line to 15cm. If you look at the photos I posted it has a little too much length and touches the tank. Not enough to really worry me but, if I had to do it over I'd go shorter.

Also, make sure they send you the little brass compression fittings that go into their adapters. They are about the size of a kernel of corn and go between the existing male fittings and their female hose ends. They forgot to send them to me and it cost me a week of down time.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: double a-ron on June 12, 2013, 01:17:51 pm
Thanks, I'll make sure they get sent. What was the lead time and cost?
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on June 12, 2013, 03:02:47 pm
As I remember it took them about a week to get them to me. The cost was around $110-120, not sure on it.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: double a-ron on June 29, 2013, 03:12:07 pm
Just finished removing the flies, installing a bmc air filter, pcv, cee bailey's screen, and of course; the new brake lines. It did EXACTLY what you said it would. It stopped the wicked dive that happens when you activate the rear brake after the front has been applied. I still notice the servo trying to reduce rear braking force when pushing hard on the pedal after applying the front though. What do you think would happen if I plugged each rubber line coming from the abs manifold with a bleeder, and ran a normal brake line setup? I.E. master cylinder connected directly to the calipers. Do you think the ecu would freak out? I know I would lose abs.

P.S. Now I only have to wait twenty more years for my area-p full system to show up.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on June 30, 2013, 07:30:20 am
If you look back at my first post in this thread you will see that is what I did. The feel of the brakes was even better than the way you have it now. The only problem with that setup is there is no ABS on the rear. I may go back to it to try it out again. Go ahead and scan through the posts and you will read that I then changed it to have the front left split to right and left front and the right output off of the ABS blocked. This was my second mod to the system.

If anyone else has done any of these types of mods please speak up. I'd like to hear your findings to compare to mine and others.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: double a-ron on June 30, 2013, 07:37:58 am
I did read that, I meant remove ALL brakes from the abs manifold, then directly connect front master to front brakes, rear master to rear brake. Then plug all lines at the manifold with bleeders. I'm just wondering what would happen ecu wise.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on June 30, 2013, 07:44:44 am
I don't know what the ABS unit would do. My guess would be it wouldn't throw the error code on the screen but, the ABS motor would probably get fried after long term running with no fluid in it to provide any resistance to it. I don't think it would be worth the work. I do like having ABS on the front. Heck, I paid for it I might as well use it.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: double a-ron on June 30, 2013, 07:50:01 am
I was thinking I would leave fluid in the manifold. As far as paying for it, I feel like the system is a little low rent.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on June 30, 2013, 07:59:37 am
Yes and a big yes to it being low rent. To leave the fluid in it you would need to put bleeder adapters on all the lines at the ABS block and I guess put all new replacement lines from master cylinders to calipers. Cheapest way would be get some old lines from a non ABS C-14 or Galfer lines. 
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on June 30, 2013, 03:38:16 pm
I was thinking I would leave fluid in the manifold. As far as paying for it, I feel like the system is a little low rent.

"Low rent"?  I don't think most Concours owners will agree with that at all.  The ABS design is just fine and I doubt there is much better out there on other bikes of the same generation.

You might not like the linked brakes design, but that is not ABS.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on July 03, 2013, 11:16:16 am
"Low rent"?  I don't think most Concours owners will agree with that at all.  The ABS design is just fine and I doubt there is much better out there on other bikes of the same generation.

You might not like the linked brakes design, but that is not ABS.

As it looks, the linked brakes are an integrated part of the ABS system and therefore can be considered all one system. The mere fact that myself and many others are discussing ways of modifying it and/or changing the link method of it are proof that there is something "low rent" about it. I've never felt the need to "fix" my Gold Wing or FJR.

I'm sorry if you take offense to calling it low rent but, it is less than perfect and could definitely be improved upon. I will say that they have great stopping power but, the feel is not right.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on July 03, 2013, 04:01:21 pm
As it looks, the linked brakes are an integrated part of the ABS system and therefore can be considered all one system. The mere fact that myself and many others are discussing ways of modifying it and/or changing the link method of it are proof that there is something "low rent" about it. I've never felt the need to "fix" my Gold Wing or FJR.

I'm sorry if you take offense to calling it low rent but, it is less than perfect and could definitely be improved upon. I will say that they have great stopping power but, the feel is not right.

Semantics.  It is not the ABS system, it is the linked brake system, which is a separate "feature" that just happens to use parts of the ABS.  It would be like complaining about a drive-by-wire system because you don't like the way the cruise control operates.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on July 03, 2013, 07:21:02 pm
Well, the discussion here has been how to separate the link from the ABS. I'm trying different modifications just hoping I get lucky. Maybe someone out there might have the answer on how to separate the two systems? What's the consensus? Kawasaki doesn't want to publicly acknowledge the problem even though they have to know about it.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on July 03, 2013, 07:27:27 pm
Maybe someone out there might have the answer on how to separate the two systems? What's the consensus? Kawasaki doesn't want to publicly acknowledge the problem even though they have to know about it.

Theoretically, the easiest way to solve the "problem" is with a software patch.  It would cost $0 and take little time and require no physical changes to the bike.  Unfortunately, that would require knowing how/where to place such a patch (and the equipment to do it).  And Kawasaki is not going to do it or tell anyone else how.  Such a shame, since Kawasaki already gave two "levels" of linking- all they had to do was listen to their customer base and add a third.... "off".
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: pistole on July 03, 2013, 09:48:04 pm
Theoretically, the easiest way to solve the "problem" is with a software patch.  It would cost $0 and take little time and require no physical changes to the bike.  Unfortunately, that would require knowing how/where to place such a patch (and the equipment to do it).  And Kawasaki is not going to do it or tell anyone else how.  Such a shame, since Kawasaki already gave two "levels" of linking- all they had to do was listen to their customer base and add a third.... "off".

- good post , and it got the brain cell working.

- since the linking is disabled at speeds below 12 mph (approx 20 kmh) , there should be a way to fool the linking system into thinking that its "always" below 12 mph.

- but .. here's the but ... i remember reading that at those low speeds , the ABS doesn't work either.

- in any event , I don't use the rear brake pedal. So , no issues for me and its got fantastic brakes.

.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on July 04, 2013, 04:40:39 am
- good post , and it got the brain cell working.

- since the linking is disabled at speeds below 12 mph (approx 20 kmh) , there should be a way to fool the linking system into thinking that its "always" below 12 mph.

- but .. here's the but ... i remember reading that at those low speeds , the ABS doesn't work either.

- in any event , I don't use the rear brake pedal. So , no issues for me and its got fantastic brakes.

.


That's definitely something to investigate. Anybody listening?? I know the ABS does work below 12 mph because I have purposely taken the bike in sand at low speeds to test the ABS after having done a modification to the lines. It works all the way to a full stop. 

Just remembered that B.D.F. had made a modification that tricked the fuel system to stop displaying the warning message on LCD readout http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=13852.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=13852.0) . Maybe B.D.F. has the skills to figure it out. Give it a shot?
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on July 04, 2013, 07:01:02 am
- good post , and it got the brain cell working.

- since the linking is disabled at speeds below 12 mph (approx 20 kmh) , there should be a way to fool the linking system into thinking that its "always" below 12 mph.

I doubt that, since I suspect there is only a single speed sensor, which is connected to the ECU and used for LOTS of things.  I don't  think the ABS system is a separate computer.... but it might be.  And even if it is, the information could go over a bus and not a dedicated line.

Quote
- in any event , I don't use the rear brake pedal. So , no issues for me and its got fantastic brakes.

Yeah, I don't use the rear either, so have no problem with the whole thing.  But I can understand why some people are upset.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Conniesaki on September 12, 2013, 12:23:18 pm
Somebody needs to find out where in the software the 12 in the '12 mph threshold' is ... and change it to 112. Or 99 if it can only hold a 2-digit number.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on September 12, 2013, 12:57:56 pm
I talked to Guhl about it via email when I was asking about the reflash. He said it's not in the main ECU. My fix works well but when I lock the rear in gravel, the wheel speed sensor on the rear notices it and I can feel the front brake lever pulse.  There are downsides to the fix I have employed but for me, the added pleasure I get from sport riding the bike makes up for it many times over. Now, instead of the bike fighting me by randomly changing attitude, I control the dynamics of the bike like I always have. To say the difference is night and day is an understatement.

As far as 'somebody finding it in the system', there are 2 candidates:  Guhl, as he can obviously reflash, but if it's not cost effective for him, it probably won't happen. The 2nd candidate is more likely and that's B.D.F, as he must be an EE and has obviously figured out what goes out on the communication bus of this well enough to disable the annoying low fuel warning. I just bought and installed this, it was about a 5 minute install.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on September 12, 2013, 03:14:48 pm
The 2nd candidate is more likely and that's B.D.F, as he must be an EE and has obviously figured out what goes out on the communication bus of this well enough to disable the annoying low fuel warning.

But he only has one of those old gen 1 models...  so he will have no motivation and no test machine.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on September 12, 2013, 05:54:31 pm
But he only has one of those old gen 1 models...  so he will have no motivation and no test machine.


The Many Doh's of Homer Simpson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaSP7ZnnMlw#ws)
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: gPink on September 12, 2013, 06:25:07 pm
There's also a liability issue I think. Nothing Brian has done with the fuel or kipass systems or what Guhl has done in the ecu reflash is directly related to a DOT regulated safety componet. Altering or defeating the abs system might leave one's posterior hanging in the wind.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: B.D.F. on September 12, 2013, 06:38:55 pm
Yep, that is absolutely true. Even beyond legal liability, there is the moral question we all have to ask ourselves: do I want to be the one who did that to someone else's bike? I would be wary of modifying the braking system of any motorcycle for anyone else but what my real problem would be is that now there is a modified bike out there 'on the loose'. Someone would sooner or later buy the motorcycle thinking it had XXXX as an on-board system without ever knowing it had been disengaged. I have had experiences in industry where someone (obviously in a superior position) wanted something that I just thought was too risky and would not install / code / execute such a thing.

I even had to sit down and think about it before I wrote the original overview on a Rostra installation: what if someone tried this, made a mistake and got hurt / killed- how much responsibility do I bear for that? In the end I did publish obviously but I tried my best to put make it clear to anyone reading it that there was a risk and that the installation was up to the installer in the end.

I also believe it would take an extraordinary amount of effort to develop a work- around for such an integral system as ABS and / or Linked brakes. That of course would make it ridiculously expensive to sell and so it isn't really marketable.

But the information on what can be done is out there for everyone to read and execute as they desire. The linked brakes can be defeated <relatively> easily apparently modifying nothing but the hydraulics and even then only changing what amounts to plumbing.

And as was mentioned, I have one o' dem old- fangled Gen. 1's so no linked brakes or ABS for me.

Brian

There's also a liability issue I think. Nothing Brian has done with the fuel or kipass systems or what Guhl has done in the ecu reflash is directly related to a DOT regulated safety componet. Altering or defeating the abs system might leave one's posterior hanging in the wind.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: fartymarty on October 25, 2013, 02:38:08 pm
Reading the following in the owner manual:

Quote from: Owner's Manual page 151
When the K-ACT ABS indicator light
is blinking, the K-ACT ABS has been
in the low voltage mode (the battery
voltage decreases). When it is in the
low voltage mode, the K-ACT system
does not function, but the ABS func-
tions. The ignition switch is turned
off to recover the K-ACT system. At
this time, the battery must be in the
normal condition.

Makes me think that an electronic savvy person could make a regulated electronic power supply that would have a fixed output (variable by a set and forget control during installation) regardless of what the battery/alternator input voltage was, that would always put out a low enough voltage so that the bike goes into the ABS only (aka low voltage mode) and thus one would be able to turn off or on(by electrically bypassing the low voltage power supply) the linked brakes electrically and still have functional ABS on both wheels. Seems feasible if it could be determined what voltage input the ECU used to make the decision.  ECU power in pin 35?; Battery monitor pin 45?(<---I think this would be best if it worked); Power to ECU pin 44? I guess this would make the ABS light blink when it was engaged and perhaps have an inaccurate Battery voltage displayed on the LCD screen, but oh well, can't always have your cake and eat it too.

I'm just thinking out loud here, hoping that those smarter than me will pick up the ball and run with it, or perhaps make some
enjoyable jokes at my expense.  ;D
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Jim H on August 28, 2014, 04:39:32 pm
  Coming in late I know.....sorry.....just wondering if anyone else has tried Randy's idea and how it has worked out so far.  Any issues....seems to me keeping the anti lock on both wheels without being linked would be a home run.  Not sure what was meant by liability.....my 94 vmax with its stock brakes should have been a liability!  LOL  That is why I put R1 brakes all the way around with FJR masters.....if what is happening here is just to unlink, I would think it would be fine.  But....again,  late comer I know...LOL

Jim H
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: martin_14 on August 28, 2014, 11:53:11 pm
I had some Japanese engineers unlink my C14 brakes for me... in 2008  8)
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: VirginiaJim on August 29, 2014, 04:12:14 am
Hopefully they weren't the ones that initially aimed the headlights.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: martin_14 on August 29, 2014, 07:10:28 am
actually, there was a chap that did an internship in my company until last year. He previously worked in Kawasaki Germany and his task was to un-crate the bikes in Cologne when they arrived to Germany. He was one of those that aimed the lights, he might have actually put together my bike and done exactly that  :D
My lights were absolutely fine, btw.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Rhino on August 29, 2014, 07:21:06 am
I had some Japanese engineers unlink my C14 brakes for me... in 2008  8)

Do you have ABS? And if yes, does the ABS still work front and back?
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: gPink on August 29, 2014, 07:29:07 am
uh, what year did they link the brakes?  ::)
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: VirginiaJim on August 29, 2014, 08:17:24 am
Do you have ABS? And if yes, does the ABS still work front and back?

Rhino, the gen 1 bikes 08/09 never had linked brakes.  They did have optional ABS.  Mine has ABS.  In fact, there is a design PDF that says Kwakers purposely did not link them.  What happened with the gen 2's to change that thinking on Kwakers part I have no idea.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Rhino on August 29, 2014, 09:00:50 am
Rhino, the gen 1 bikes 08/09 never had linked brakes.  They did have optional ABS.  Mine has ABS.  In fact, there is a design PDF that says Kwakers purposely did not link them.  What happened with the gen 2's to change that thinking on Kwakers part I have no idea.

Duh! I fell for Matin's joke!  :-[
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: gPink on August 29, 2014, 10:33:43 am
here ya go.... :doh:
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Cuda on August 29, 2014, 02:26:44 pm
I NEVER use my rear brake unless I'm under 20mph , so I have NO Idea what all the fuss is about, has anyone heard of down shifting ::) 
THAT is why we have a slipper clutch ... for DOWN shifting  .
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Jim H on August 29, 2014, 03:00:19 pm
I NEVER use my rear brake unless I'm under 20mph , so I have NO Idea what all the fuss is about, has anyone heard of down shifting ::) 
THAT is why we have a slipper clutch ... for DOWN shifting  .

Not trying to get into the "I do/don't use brakes" argument....just trying to followup with others to see if they did the "fix" that Randy came up with......and by the way,  our linked brakes are a problem.  I downshift, use front or back or both depending on road conditions, speed etc.....if you don't use your rear brake,  just disconnect it then (insert sarcasm and smile)????  See how this gets stupid fast.  So, no offense meant,  just trying to stay on topic....thanks everyone. 
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on August 29, 2014, 03:03:28 pm
I NEVER use my rear brake unless I'm under 20mph , so I have NO Idea what all the fuss is about,

Me neither.  The linking can be increased or decreased (high and low mode) which is even remembered across battery pulls, and deactivates automatically at low speed.  But some people want complete control over the breaking, which the linking removes.  You supposedly can still trail brake effectively with them linked (especially on "low").  Yet I agree with them that it is annoying Kawasaki didn't have an "off" option instead of just "high" and "low" linking... it is a bit baffling.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Stephen.G.Fiddes on August 29, 2014, 03:22:24 pm
I'm actually thoroughly surprised no one has seen/ posted this video on how the linked brake system works...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRqSTkwQRMM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRqSTkwQRMM)

That said, it's SUPID that Kawi thinks we need a computer system to determine proper braking ratio for us... It's not like we have front and rear drum brakes anymore... What if I want more rear brake to steer the bike into a corner, but still want to drag the front slightly?  even after almost 12k miles on this bike, I still go back to what I'm used to of not having a linked system, and getting surprised when I touch the rear brake.  And I downshift like a mofo when slowing down grabbing a handful of front and rear.

I would like to keep the ABS, as it's a huge safety thing on the street, but lose the links!
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on August 29, 2014, 03:52:09 pm
I would like to keep the ABS, as it's a huge safety thing on the street, but lose the links!

I don't necessarily think they they need to lose the linking option as much as they need to just offer an "off" option.  The sad part is that it is simply a software option that would cost essentially zero to add.  In fact, they could probably offer a reprogram retrofit.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Stephen.G.Fiddes on August 29, 2014, 04:02:44 pm
I don't necessarily think they they need to lose the linking option as much as they need to just offer an "off" option.  The sad part is that I believe that is simply a software option that would cost essentially zero to add (unless the "low" and "high" mode is not really variable, which it might not be... in which case it would require a hardware change, but probably not a very big one).


Lol, thats what I meant.  The ability to shut it off.  I know it has its purposes for some peoples style of riding, but not for me. 



Here's another cool link I just came across.  Haven't fully looked through it but it looks pretty informative. 

http://www.kawasaki-cp.khi.co.jp/technology/chassis/tech_k-act_abs_e.html (http://www.kawasaki-cp.khi.co.jp/technology/chassis/tech_k-act_abs_e.html)


EDIT:  It almost looks like if we can disable the pumps, we can alleviate the issue...
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: RandyN on August 29, 2014, 08:03:51 pm
I'm actually thoroughly surprised no one has seen/ posted this video on how the linked brake system works...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRqSTkwQRMM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRqSTkwQRMM)

That said, it's SUPID that Kawi thinks we need a computer system to determine proper braking ratio for us... It's not like we have front and rear drum brakes anymore... What if I want more rear brake to steer the bike into a corner, but still want to drag the front slightly?  even after almost 12k miles on this bike, I still go back to what I'm used to of not having a linked system, and getting surprised when I touch the rear brake.  And I downshift like a mofo when slowing down grabbing a handful of front and rear.

I would like to keep the ABS, as it's a huge safety thing on the street, but lose the links!

Slick video. Makes it seem like we all need it to be able to ride. Problem is it is so abrupt and unpredictable in the application, that bothers me. Both my Gold Wing and FJR1300 were nearly seamless in the linkage.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: VirginiaJim on August 30, 2014, 09:12:24 am
I can see the value of my 08 going up.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Cuda on August 30, 2014, 02:23:25 pm
I can see the value of my 08 going up.

You have better chance of having another drink and watching your blood pressure going UP ::)
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Jim H on August 30, 2014, 04:26:39 pm
  I am amazed no one else has chimed in on trying this.....so much original feedback.  Not that I don't believe Randy, I would just
like to hear from others reporting positive results.  Where are you folks????????

Jim
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: VirginiaJim on August 30, 2014, 05:13:55 pm
You have better chance of having another drink and watching your blood pressure going UP ::)

Drinking actually lowers my BP...which I'm doing now.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Stephen.G.Fiddes on August 30, 2014, 05:56:00 pm
Slick video. Makes it seem like we all need it to be able to ride. Problem is it is so abrupt and unpredictable in the application, that bothers me. Both my Gold Wing and FJR1300 were nearly seamless in the linkage.

It's kindof like the throttle.  You open it JUST A LITTLE BIT and it hesitates, then says "OH S#!T I'M A MOTORCYCLE!  I'M SUPPOSED TO ACCELERATE WHEN THE THROTTLE IS TWISTED!" and tries to make up for lost time by applying all of that skipped power, all at once...
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Cuda on August 30, 2014, 08:47:58 pm
Drinking actually lowers my BP...which I'm doing now.
I guess your right, I went for a bike ride ... had a glass of red wine ... checked my BP
111/76 heart beat 69 ? I need to drink more... I guess :o 
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Richard. Wales UK on September 29, 2014, 10:47:01 am
Hi

Great thread, I was guided here from the UK 1400GTR site, copy/paste of my post below, thing to remember here is mine is a trike: -


Having done nothing to the trike since last winter, apart from lots of riding, I have a growing urge to pull something apart soon .....

Issues: -
The traction control is a pain, it flashes up far to often when setting off in anything other than a straight line, this is because the ABS sensor is on one back wheel, and in a turn its either going a bit faster or slower than the front wheel, so the system decides to get involved, I don't need it, I have 2 large drive wheels providing loads of traction.

The ABS on the front wheel is great, but the ABS on the back is a pain, again because only one wheel is being sensed. This nearly caught me out last week pulling into a parking space, because I was turning right the right wheel was turning slower than the front so the system reduced the effort to the back wheels to nothing, causing me to have to quickly grab the front brake.

The linked brakes are a pain, despite my previous modifications to the back brakes I am still not 100% happy with them.
 
Solutions: -
Make a new sensor ring for the ABS and mount it on the front of the differential, this way it will average out both back wheels. Will need to do a load of maths to work out how many slots to cut in the disk, allowing for the size of the back wheels and the differential ratio.

Remove the ABS from the back brakes - make up a new pipe linking the master cylinder directly to the back brakes, but what do I do with the ABS pump?
I assume front and rear circuits are isolated from each other in the pump, so I can leave the front as it is, but what do I do with the original rear feed and output, blank them both off, link together ?

Your thoughts please

Richard
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: wally_games on September 29, 2014, 11:06:34 am
Hi

Great thread, I was guided here from the UK 1400GTR site, copy/paste of my post below, thing to remember here is mine is a trike: -


Having done nothing to the trike since last winter, apart from lots of riding, I have a growing urge to pull something apart soon .....

Issues: -
The traction control is a pain, it flashes up far to often when setting off in anything other than a straight line, this is because the ABS sensor is on one back wheel, and in a turn its either going a bit faster or slower than the front wheel, so the system decides to get involved, I don't need it, I have 2 large drive wheels providing loads of traction.

The ABS on the front wheel is great, but the ABS on the back is a pain, again because only one wheel is being sensed. This nearly caught me out last week pulling into a parking space, because I was turning right the right wheel was turning slower than the front so the system reduced the effort to the back wheels to nothing, causing me to have to quickly grab the front brake.

The linked brakes are a pain, despite my previous modifications to the back brakes I am still not 100% happy with them.
 
Solutions: -
Make a new sensor ring for the ABS and mount it on the front of the differential, this way it will average out both back wheels. Will need to do a load of maths to work out how many slots to cut in the disk, allowing for the size of the back wheels and the differential ratio.

Remove the ABS from the back brakes - make up a new pipe linking the master cylinder directly to the back brakes, but what do I do with the ABS pump?
I assume front and rear circuits are isolated from each other in the pump, so I can leave the front as it is, but what do I do with the original rear feed and output, blank them both off, link together ?

Your thoughts please

Richard

Could we please see some pics?
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Richard. Wales UK on September 29, 2014, 11:10:13 am
Could we please see some pics?

Yes you can, but should I put them here, don't want to hijack the thread?
Here's one anyway, Trike, Mrs and the dog.

Richard
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: The Pope on September 29, 2014, 12:02:49 pm
Remove the ABS from the back brakes - make up a new pipe linking the master cylinder directly to the back brakes, but what do I do with the ABS pump?

Richard

See the very first post of this thread.

It should answer your question on how to plumb the ABS pump so that you will still have ABS on the front, but not on the rear.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: VirginiaJim on September 29, 2014, 04:59:57 pm
Yes you can, but should I put them here, don't want to hijack the thread?
Here's one anyway, Trike, Mrs and the dog.

Richard

Hijack away.  Happens all the time.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Richard. Wales UK on October 01, 2014, 03:47:26 am
See the very first post of this thread.

It should answer your question on how to plumb the ABS pump so that you will still have ABS on the front, but not on the rear.

Hi, yes I think that is the way to go to solve the ABS / linked brakes problem.
I still need to sort the traction control issue, the only way I can see which also keeps the front ABS is to make a new disk and mount it on the front of the diff.

Richard
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: martin_14 on October 02, 2014, 03:11:12 am
Hijack away.  Happens all the time.

 :rotflmao:
a good old French shrug of the shoulders... I guess it comes with age. All good as long as the beer keeps coming, right Jim?  ;D
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: VirginiaJim on October 02, 2014, 04:12:29 am
 :)
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: TonyR on July 30, 2015, 09:32:35 pm
I was also looking for some information on this linked brakes issue. I really hate this stuff so much that it makes me want my 08 even more. I think the ABS is very valuable, didn't have it on my 08, but the linked brakes trying to do what i can do better with less front end diving, is not making me happy.
I just can't get used to the fact that when I'm trying to get a smooth stop with my wife in the back, all of of sudden, she bangs helmets with me and the front end dives.
I like to have full control of my brakes... thanks kawy... There are also those times where you may just want the rear brake...

I'm wondering if by now someone has figured out a better way to do this and keep the ABS without any linking?

Tony
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on July 31, 2015, 06:04:45 am
I'm wondering if by now someone has figured out a better way to do this and keep the ABS without any linking?

Make sure you have it set in the lightly linked mode and not the highly linked mode.

There have been no other success threads or used methods other than replumbing as described in this thread.  It is a shame, because a simple software alteration could allow it to be any amount of linking desired, including a selectable (and sticky) disable option.  But no such patch exists (that I have seen, anyway).
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on August 12, 2015, 12:00:58 pm
I unlinked mine as Randy suggested a long time ago.  I lost ABS on the rear, I could give a sh*t. No problems with it whatsoever.  I freaking love it. Now before you get all worked up about (fill in the blank), it's my bike, my time and my money.  I'm happy, hell no, I'm ecstatic with it.

I did it because I don't want the damn computer changing its mind mid-corner and suddenly, I get a bunch of brake dive when I'm already 'fully committed'.   Or having to brake one way on one of my bikes and a completely different way on another.  I heavy brake and trail brake with the front, no rear. I use the rear at low speed and to tighten my line in the corner. 

Did I mention I'm happy?

Just read that Kaw article, note this:

" Based on the vehicle speed, K-ACT decides the optimum hydraulic pressure to send to each caliper, ensuring that even with a heavy motorcycle, stable braking performance is possible."

What that seems to have done to me is, as speed lowers (because you're braking, duh), it changes the pressure to the respective calipers and you get chassis movement/transition that is not based on your inputs.  I don't like that.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Freddy on August 12, 2015, 06:46:10 pm
Someone here or elsewhere said they had done it by blocking the ABS port to the right (linked) caliper and fitting the gen 1 hose from right to left caliper.  That way they had ABS as per gen 1.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: hawkerjet on November 12, 2015, 08:26:16 am
Someone here or elsewhere said they had done it by blocking the ABS port to the right (linked) caliper and fitting the gen 1 hose from right to left caliper.  That way they had ABS as per gen 1.

I am very interested with the linked brake fix discussed on this post. Unfortunately this post has been dead for a while.

Hoping to see some updates on what is working and in particular what is mentioned in the quote above.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: connie_rider on November 12, 2015, 11:46:41 am
Yes, me too.
I didn't know this fix existed.
Will do a complete read thru tonight.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: The Pope on November 13, 2015, 04:17:51 am
I am very interested with the linked brake fix discussed on this post. Unfortunately this post has been dead for a while.

Hoping to see some updates on what is working and in particular what is mentioned in the quote above.
That's basically the same theory that I have. I was just wanting to use a "Y" block near the ABS Pump to connect the front callapers to the ABS Pumps outlet for the Front Left Callaper. I'd still have a short (8"-12") rubber brake line coming off of the ABS Pump outlet for the Front Right Callaper, but it wouldn't be connected to anything, but it would have a bleeder installed so that you'd be able to still fully bleed all of the air out of the system. I also "believe" that with this setup, when you have the "Low" brake selected, the front & rear would be un-linked, but when you had the "High" brake selected, they would be linked.

Now, like I said, this is just a theory as I haven't done this and if someone does do this, they are doing it at their own risk.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Rhino on November 13, 2015, 08:59:53 am
The 2015's supposedly have improved, lighter linked brakes. I was wondering how much better are they? And weather or not this is just software or different hardware? Which then begs the question could this be retrofitted to older ABS bikes? Enquiring minds want to know.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on November 13, 2015, 04:58:00 pm
The 2015's supposedly have improved, lighter linked brakes. I was wondering how much better are they?

I am curious too (just academically... I don't think the low-linked mode is any big whoop before).

Quote
And weather or not this is just software or different hardware?

I am pretty confident it is 100% software.  It is a simple program change

Quote
Which then begs the question could this be retrofitted to older ABS bikes? Enquiring minds want to know.

I already speculated about that in other threads.  I see no reason why such a change couldn't be ported to the other bikes, if it is something that COULD be programmed through a shop computer.  That doesn't mean Kawasaki would make it available, though.  And I doubt they would.  I am not sure if that functionality was meant to be updated, so the firmware might be fixed.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: elp_jc on November 14, 2015, 12:02:23 am
Don't have a 2014 or older to compare, but I can tell you my 2015 front calipers are fed by the same brake line, with a 'Y' between the forks. And similarly, just one brake line to the rear caliper. So apparently there was a hardware change too, if older ones were not like that. I HATE not having 100% front power with the lever, like Honda does. At least now, the brakes are linked electronically only. But not ideally, nor fully, like on modern BMW bikes, where the front lever provides 100% front & rear braking power (including a proportioning valve), and the rear only the rear.

The Connie has 100% FRONT braking power with the lever, but not 100% at the back. I think it's 50%. And I doubt it's 'intelligent' enough to be proportioning, but don't really need that on a sport-touring bike IMO, especially if riding solo. But it might have it. Somebody with a passenger can play with the brakes and find out easily. Solo, I feel no difference whatsoever using both brakes (as expected), from just the front... which is what I always do. I've been looking everywhere for specific info on the brakes, but just couldn't find ANYTHING. Anyway, the pedal has 100% power for the rear, and I believe 20 or 40% at the front, depending on linking setting (2 available- low and high). So just the rear pedal would be dangerous folks, as braking distances would be tremendously longer. As you should know, the great majority of braking is at the front, and that's why you have 8 pistons and 2 big a$$ rotors, vs 1 or 2 pistons and a puny rotor. Besides, by only using the front brake, in case of an emergency in a non-ABS bike, you'd be much less likely to inadvertently lock-up the rear wheel and end up on the ground. Believe me,  modulating the front brake alone is enough even for an experienced rider. And on bikes with linked brakes, makes no difference to use the rear pedal, so no downside to just use the front lever. But to each his own. But yes, with ABS, you can do whatever you want... but just make sure you're capable of invoking ABS (100% braking power) with the front lever, or you'd be wasting precious real estate in an emergency. Practice folks.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: fartymarty on November 15, 2015, 02:48:16 pm
.....but I can tell you my 2015 front calipers are fed by the same brake line, with a 'Y' between the forks.
  ???

Yes you CAN tell us that, but making us believe it is another matter.

https://www.kawasaki.com/Parts/PartsDiagram/154077/2015/ZG1400EFF (https://www.kawasaki.com/Parts/PartsDiagram/154077/2015/ZG1400EFF)

Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: martin_14 on November 16, 2015, 01:49:50 pm
Practice folks.

+10000

I invoke the ABS once in a while, just to know it's there. Straight line, some dirt or humidity or cold will do. A strong pulse on the lever and let go. Also emergency braking from increasing speeds: 20, 40 and 60 mph.
I had the chance to "practice" an emergency brake recently while doing 130 and a sudden jam formed (accident ahead) and had to throw anchor. The rate at which the brake system on this bike can shave speed is ridiculous, astonishing. I almost needed a paper bag. And no less impressive is how stable is the chassis, no weave whatsoever like on more sporty bikes with more aggressive steering.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Rhino on November 16, 2015, 02:12:09 pm
+10000

I invoke the ABS once in a while, just to know it's there. Straight line, some dirt or humidity or cold will do. A strong pulse on the lever and let go. Also emergency braking from increasing speeds: 20, 40 and 60 mph.
I had the chance to "practice" an emergency brake recently while doing 130 and a sudden jam formed (accident ahead) and had to throw anchor. The rate at which the brake system on this bike can shave speed is ridiculous, astonishing. I almost needed a paper bag. And no less impressive is how stable is the chassis, no weave whatsoever like on more sporty bikes with more aggressive steering.

+1 Even a low skilled rider such as myself panicking and mashing front and rear, the bike just stops without any fuss or upset. Now my greatest concern when braking hard is what's behind me because I know with rare exception, there is no way they can stop as fast.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on November 16, 2015, 03:14:17 pm
Now my greatest concern when braking hard is what's behind me because I know with rare exception, there is no way they can stop as fast.

+10000000000
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on November 16, 2015, 04:06:26 pm
  ???

Yes you CAN tell us that, but making us believe it is another matter.

https://www.kawasaki.com/Parts/PartsDiagram/154077/2015/ZG1400EFF (https://www.kawasaki.com/Parts/PartsDiagram/154077/2015/ZG1400EFF)

wasted breath brother, wasted on someone who has no clue.
one line runs down to caliper, and a piggyback line runs to the other caliper...

expert with less than a thousand miles on the seat of that bike.

and the list keeps growing....
its been a slave left caliper for years. (not) great design, makes ya buy pads in half sets.
I like my ABS '08 very much.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: fartymarty on November 16, 2015, 10:22:40 pm
wasted breath brother, wasted on someone who has no clue.
one line runs down to caliper, and a piggyback line runs to the other caliper...

....its been a slave left caliper for years.
  ???  ???  ???

Sorry MOB, but other than '08 and '09, I don't believe you either.  :(
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Red Good on October 27, 2016, 04:42:43 pm
Randy that figured out the fix in the beginning of this thread had some pics attatched that  i cannot see . Are they still around or am i doing something wrong . Thanks 

 Sorry guys had to become a member and now all is well . Good thread .
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Hooligan on October 27, 2016, 10:43:22 pm
Randy that figured out the fix in the beginning of this thread had some pics attatched that  i cannot see . Are they still around or am i doing something wrong . Thanks 

 Sorry guys had to become a member and now all is well . Good thread .

 :offtopic: I know, but how about introducing yourself......?

Just asking....
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Freddy on October 28, 2016, 12:28:30 am
:offtopic: I know, but how about introducing yourself......?

Just asking....

+1

Here's what I posted on another forum.

The linked brakes can be disabled quite easily.  I did it recently on my new-to-me 2011.  Using the cross-over hose and the 2-hose banjo bolt from the right caliper of the earlier non-linked bike, connect the right caliper to the left caliper using that new hose and bolt to the left caliper.  The displaced hose banjo to the right caliper must be capped/blocked and cable tied for security - I tied it to the reflector mount.  I used a 3/8" (10mm) bolt and nylock nut, 2 sealing washers and thread tape on the bolt (just to help seal the thread) and new sealing washers on all loosened joints and flushed/bled the entire system.  Test ride and examine all connections closely for any signs of leakage and ensure that you have a full and firm brake lever and pedal, indicating no air in the system, and that brake performance is as normal as before - except for the linked brake function obviously. If this procedure is followed correctly and done by a competent person, the rider will be happy with the result (I was) and the ABS K-ACT system will be none the wiser (as mine was) and the ABS will function as normal.

However, do the above at your own risk.   ;)   I gleaned this procedure from old posts on this and/or other forums quite some time ago.  I had a 2008 bike and didn't like the linked system on the later model either so I reverted to the earlier system.  I have read that the current/new model's linked brake system is unobtrusive after K 'retuned' it.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: VirginiaJim on October 28, 2016, 04:41:56 am
Freddy, do you have any pictures of that mod?
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Freddy on October 28, 2016, 05:42:00 am
I will do some tomorrow, but it's similar to the gen 1 which many folks know well, except that gen 2 left caliper brake hose is the active one and the right (linked) one is plugged as described and tied to the right reflector bracket.

See hose 43095B to the left of the triple clamp in the illustration link below, plus bolt 92153B

https://www.kawasaki.com/Parts/PartsDiagram/30807/2008/ZG1400A8F (https://www.kawasaki.com/Parts/PartsDiagram/30807/2008/ZG1400A8F)
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: turbojoe78 on October 28, 2016, 06:41:27 am
Does anyone know what Kaw changed from the 2010 - 2014 models to get the linked brakes to the way they are on the 2015 and newer bikes?

Was it mechanical changes in the ABS unit or could it have been an electronic change like getting your ECU flashed?
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on October 28, 2016, 03:05:47 pm
Does anyone know what Kaw changed from the 2010 - 2014 models to get the linked brakes to the way they are on the 2015 and newer bikes?  [less linking]

Was it mechanical changes in the ABS unit or could it have been an electronic change like getting your ECU flashed?

I am going to *SPECULATE* that it is just a simple software change....  an update to a table value.  Because that is all it should take.  But that isn't going to be offered for reprogramming.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: gPink on October 28, 2016, 03:12:34 pm
Check abs pump and ecm part numbers.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on October 28, 2016, 03:35:37 pm
Check abs pump and ecm part numbers.

That would only tell you there was a difference but not what or why, though.  Theoretically, the change would only require a few changes in a few bytes in a table in EEPROM.  But of course that would require they use a whole new part number, since they don't offer software updates/patches/upgrades.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: gPink on October 28, 2016, 04:32:35 pm
You're right, any change would require a different part #.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Freddy on October 28, 2016, 09:05:24 pm
Freddy, do you have any pictures of that mod?


(http://i.imgur.com/bgzkHAY.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/itWrH35.jpg)

3/8 UNC bolt, nylock nut washers & thread tape used to blank off the right linked hose which is tied to the reflector bracket above.  The bolt shown is a tad longer than the one I used.
(http://i.imgur.com/pTplsoF.jpg)

EDIT: I've not been 100% happy with the method I used to block the displaced hose.  Having given more thought to it and scratching about in my tub of left-over bit from other jobs I came up with this short hose fitted with a 10x1mm plug.  The hose is from a 1400 ABS unit.  In stock form it joins the long steel pipes that run under the tank to the ABS unit - but it's a spare from a wrecked bike.  This short hose with plug will replace the displaced hose which presently runs to the right caliper.  It's necessary to lift the fuel tank to access the front end of the steel pipe to fit the 'block-off' hose. This update gives certainty that no leak will ever develop.  Of the 2 bikes I personally did the 'bolt & tape' block-off to, neither have developed any seepage whatsoever after more than 2 years with that somewhat primitive 'fix.'

(https://i.imgur.com/Shh38C6.jpg)
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: seagiant on October 28, 2016, 10:48:20 pm
Hi,
        Admittedly, the linked brakes on my 2012 does not bother me.

I have seen a few of these "fixes" on different Forums, but....

It always seems that the fix involves losing the ABS function???

All that to ask is this still the case???
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Freddy on October 28, 2016, 10:58:26 pm
Hi,
        Admittedly, the linked brakes on my 2012 does not bother me.

I have seen a few of these "fixes" on different Forums, but....

It always seems that the fix involves losing the ABS function???

All that to ask is this still the case???

This mod has no impact on ABS function.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: VirginiaJim on October 30, 2016, 07:28:00 am
Thanks, Freddy!
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: seagiant on October 30, 2016, 08:36:22 am
This mod has no impact on ABS function.

Hi,
        Thanks!

That was my problem, with other "solutions"!

I want this bike to have all the "safety" from the factory, it came with!!! 8)
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Rhino on November 01, 2016, 06:59:12 am
Hi,
        Thanks!

That was my problem, with other "solutions"!

I want this bike to have all the "safety" from the factory, it came with!!! 8)

Hey, my bike didn't come with those "safety" options!
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Freddy on July 16, 2017, 12:02:55 am
I've managed to 'rehost' the pix in reply 136 above which went missing due to Photobucket holding us to ransom.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on July 16, 2017, 02:37:15 am
I've managed to 'rehost' the pix in reply 136 above which went missing due to Photobucket holding us to ransom.

If you upload the photos to the forum, then they will never go missing (they are still externally hosted).  Unless, of course, the forum itself goes.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: gPink on July 16, 2017, 06:40:56 am
I've managed to 'rehost' the pix in reply 136 above which went missing due to Photobucket holding us to ransom.

Thanks Freddy
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: roy826 on July 18, 2017, 08:08:39 am
Thanks Freddy you just gave me a winter time project on my 2012.

I priced out the parts through Honda East in Toledo for around $80 shipped including the fender loop line clamps, brake line and a bunch of brake line washers.

I hate the linked braking on the Concours it is terrible IMO.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 18, 2017, 03:12:41 pm
Thanks Freddy you just gave me a winter time project on my 2012.

I priced out the parts through Honda East in Toledo for around $80 shipped including the fender loop line clamps, brake line and a bunch of brake line washers.

I hate the linked braking on the Concours it is terrible IMO.


My goodness.   You must not have read this... http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22616.msg280210#msg280210 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22616.msg280210#msg280210)

If you had, you wouldn't be saying that.  I think that most would agree with your thoughts on the linked braking.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: roy826 on July 18, 2017, 04:48:30 pm
My goodness.   You must not have read this... [url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22616.msg280210#msg280210[/url] ([url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22616.msg280210#msg280210[/url])

If you had, you wouldn't be saying that.  I think that most would agree with your thoughts on the linked braking.


I've only had a Concours for little over 3 weeks. But I have been riding and racing motorcycles for 40+ years and I think I know when brakes suck. And the Concours linked braking is terrible. Yes it will stop in a straight line very well but it's a dance of off balance unpredictable things going on that the real rider has no real control over. I become the link trying to unlink the crap through years of what I've mastered in extreme usage of brakes on a Motorcycle. I do not mind abs when it works like it should nor do I dislike linked braking systems that work inna seamless manner. Case in point the systems found on Yamaha streetbikes with linked brake systems. Those systems work well and go virtually unoticed by the rider.

The Kawasaki system is flawed if you trail brake to the apex of turns. The nose diving grabby front end is a disaster waiting to happen. I'll de-link mine and it'll be a fine sport tourer then.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 18, 2017, 05:04:45 pm
 :thumbs:
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on July 18, 2017, 05:11:55 pm
The Kawasaki system is flawed if you trail brake to the apex of turns. The nose diving grabby front end is a disaster waiting to happen. I'll de-link mine and it'll be a fine sport tourer then.

It is funny how just a little bit of programming can mess something up.  Too bad we don't have a way to flash the ABS computer to change the values so the linking ratios could be altered.  I am not sure if it is even reprogrammable, though; it might have no interface to the outside world or the tables could be ROM (physically not changeable).
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Freddy on July 18, 2017, 08:59:53 pm
Lousy shot of the ABS wiring but terminal plug 5 is for 'interface to the outside world' via KDS3. 

(http://i.imgur.com/LW5B0RI.jpg)

Though this is of the gen 1 system, gen 2 also has the connector.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: BrissyGTR on August 14, 2017, 10:35:29 pm
I have one Freddy.

A link to the 2010 manual is here https://www.facebook.com/groups/Concours14/files/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/Concours14/files/)
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Freddy on August 15, 2017, 12:58:11 am
I have one Freddy.

A link to the 2010 manual is here https://www.facebook.com/groups/Concours14/files/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/Concours14/files/)

Me too - in print, plus the series 1 on CD.

How do you find/like the de-linked brakes on your bike?  Or did you put it back to stock?
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: TAL2013C14 on August 11, 2018, 08:49:41 pm
+1

Here's what I posted on another forum.

The linked brakes can be disabled quite easily.  I did it recently on my new-to-me 2011.  Using the cross-over hose and the 2-hose banjo bolt from the right caliper of the earlier non-linked bike, connect the right caliper to the left caliper using that new hose and bolt to the left caliper.  The displaced hose banjo to the right caliper must be capped/blocked and cable tied for security - I tied it to the reflector mount.  I used a 3/8" (10mm) bolt and nylock nut, 2 sealing washers and thread tape on the bolt (just to help seal the thread) and new sealing washers on all loosened joints and flushed/bled the entire system.  Test ride and examine all connections closely for any signs of leakage and ensure that you have a full and firm brake lever and pedal, indicating no air in the system, and that brake performance is as normal as before - except for the linked brake function obviously. If this procedure is followed correctly and done by a competent person, the rider will be happy with the result (I was) and the ABS K-ACT system will be none the wiser (as mine was) and the ABS will function as normal.

However, do the above at your own risk.   ;)   I gleaned this procedure from old posts on this and/or other forums quite some time ago.  I had a 2008 bike and didn't like the linked system on the later model either so I reverted to the earlier system.  I have read that the current/new model's linked brake system is unobtrusive after K 'retuned' it.

I finally took the time to read this entire thread, and I'm here to say thank you all who have worked to defeat the terrible Kawasaki linked braking system.
Wish I would have read through it when I bought the bike last year!
Freddy, I will be installing your mod to my 2013 as soon as I can get the parts.
Thanks again! :)
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on August 11, 2018, 11:14:17 pm
thank you all who have worked to defeat the terrible Kawasaki linked braking system.

I wouldn't characterize it as "terrible" (especially with the recent revision to the linking programming) but having no "off" option is very unfortunate.  I simply don't understand that.... especially since it would have cost nothing and [IMHO] cause zero liability or safety issues.  To those who would ague that last part- the traction control has an "off" and there are at least as many good reasons one might want brake linking off (far, far, far fewer regarding ABS, though).  Me?  I would have it "on" anyway (and in the low-linked mode, which is what I use now), but that would be my choice because that is my riding preference.  Choice is always good.

This was/is a great thread with lots of useful info to help those who want that missing "off" (albeit it a "permanent" off).
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: connie_rider on August 12, 2018, 09:31:41 am
TAL2013C14 / all, there is an EZ way to defeat the problem with the linked brakes on the earlier systems.
Just don't use the rear brake...…
Because of the link, using the front lever only, applies all the rear brake you need.

It's a simple solution that works perfectly.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on August 12, 2018, 09:53:35 am
TAL2013C14 / all, there is an EZ way to defeat the problem with the linked brakes on the earlier systems.
Just don't use the rear brake...…
Because of the link, using the front lever only, applies all the rear brake you need.

It's a simple solution that works perfectly.

It is what I do, but some people want more manual control.  I completely understand why someone might want an "off".
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: connie_rider on August 12, 2018, 06:19:45 pm
Maxtog, I think your indicating that you use the rear brake pedal to do Trail braking?
That is a common misconception. {I once thought the same}

Trail braking actually uses the front brake lever...
   Our Linked brakes work fine, but non Linked brakes use the front brake only.
       Watch the video in this discussion...
http://forum.cog-online.org/motorcycle-safety/trail-braking-video/msg645728/#msg645728 (http://forum.cog-online.org/motorcycle-safety/trail-braking-video/msg645728/#msg645728)

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Freddy on August 12, 2018, 06:44:37 pm
TAL, the genuine K hose from the series 1 bike to connect the 2 front calipers is NLA (no longer available) I believe.  Use an aftermarket hose with 30-45 degree bends on the banjo ends.  Double banjo bolts and new washers are also readily available.


PS - I ride with BrissyGTR occasionally - he loves the de-linked brakes.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: maxtog on August 12, 2018, 07:06:03 pm
Maxtog, I think your indicating that you use the rear brake pedal to do Trail braking?

I did mispeak [and corrected], thanks for the info!  It appears I do partially trail-brake but didn't really know it.  What I don't do, is ever use the rear brake pedal (on any bike; never have).  Of course, on the Gen 2, that doesn't mean I am not using the rear, since they are linked.  I just recognize and appreciate that some people would want full manual control (even if I don't, and perhaps don't completely understand it :) )
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: connie_rider on August 12, 2018, 07:14:23 pm
Ok, good plan!

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: TAL2013C14 on August 20, 2018, 01:41:03 pm
TAL, the genuine K hose from the series 1 bike to connect the 2 front calipers is NLA (no longer available) I believe.  Use an aftermarket hose with 30-45 degree bends on the banjo ends.  Double banjo bolts and new washers are also readily available.


PS - I ride with BrissyGTR occasionally - he loves the de-linked brakes.

Thanks for the heads-up Freddy!
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Cuda on October 01, 2018, 08:42:02 pm
TAL2013C14 / all, there is an EZ way to defeat the problem with the linked brakes on the earlier systems.
Just don't use the rear brake...…
Because of the link, using the front lever only, applies all the rear brake you need.

It's a simple solution that works perfectly.

Ride safe, Ted

I like you Ted , you're spot on, I use one finger on the front brake downshift hard  and have never had any   issues . 
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: connie_rider on October 03, 2018, 07:40:51 am
Thanks!
I have a simple mind, so I need simple solutions...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on October 17, 2018, 12:13:53 pm
Maxtog, I think your indicating that you use the rear brake pedal to do Trail braking?
That is a common misconception. {I once thought the same}

Trail braking actually uses the front brake lever...
   Our Linked brakes work fine, but non Linked brakes use the front brake only.
       Watch the video in this discussion...
[url]http://forum.cog-online.org/motorcycle-safety/trail-braking-video/msg645728/#msg645728[/url] ([url]http://forum.cog-online.org/motorcycle-safety/trail-braking-video/msg645728/#msg645728[/url])

Ride safe, Ted


I don't think the linked brakes work fine, and neither do a lot of others.  If you like them, I'm OK with you liking them, but I don't. 

Yes, trail braking uses the front.   Do you know what the separate use of the rear is for?
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: connie14boy on October 17, 2018, 12:57:09 pm
I don't think the linked brakes work fine, and neither do a lot of others.  If you like them, I'm OK with you liking them, but I don't. 

Yes, trail braking uses the front.   Do you know what the separate use of the rear is for?

On the Gen 1 bikes, the ABS is separate on both brakes, and I use the rear brake to "back-in" the corners going downhill in the mountain twisties. Leave the gears in 3rd, cram on the rear ABS with no worry of a high side, and the bike 'settles' in to the next corner- very effective when boogying with a fat lady.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Gabriel on November 24, 2018, 03:45:27 pm
I'm not a fan of these linked brakes because;
I got into a corner a little to fast so I wanted to back-it-in just a little, I applied a little more rear brake but this is not the time to have something unexpected to happen but it did.
I was already carrying a little front brake when I applied a little more rear when the front end dived which as you know it changed the geometry and at the same time my personal exhaust valve change geometry too.
The last thing I wanted/needed at that time was more front brake at that lean angle, it all worked out but it scared the crap out of me.:yikes:
I have owned over 75 motorcycles and been riding since I was 12. I raced for several years but after 15 broken bones and other issues I quit. I don't remember the last time a bike scared me because of some trait that was unique to it.
I also get a slight bump in the rear pedal when stopping some times, does anyone else get this?
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: fartymarty on November 26, 2018, 10:21:21 am
Yes, trail braking uses the front.   Do you know what the separate use of the rear is for?

On the C14? Slow speed (parking lot, U-turns etc.) tight turn maneuvering? Still works for this on linked brakes below 12 mph.
.....and I personally use a lot of rear brake on dirt bikes in dirt, especially going down hill.

I try to use both brakes, even though I agree with Ted that just using the front is much simpler and probably equally effective for my skill level, just because I ride other bikes and none of them have linked brakes.
In my advancing years, I no longer trust that my brain won't use the wrong technique for the bike that I'm on at the time. Speaking of brain farts, I'm not even sure if that last sentence is correct,
triple negatives?  :-\
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Poseidon on November 26, 2018, 07:55:02 pm
I really thought the linked brakes were going to bother me more than they have. I keep mine on the less linked setting. After a few rides, you get a feel for how much rear brake you can use before the front kicks in. Only time I really use the rear brake is scrubbing off a little speed entering a curve if I come in a little hotter than expected. That doesn’t happen very often now that I have a better feel for the handling and lean angle limits of the bike. Switching bikes between cruiser / bagger and Concours does mess with your entry speeds some.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Freddy on November 26, 2018, 10:27:36 pm
Hi again P.  Good to hear your enjoying your new C14.  Fortunately for you, Kaw revised the calibration of the 'link' rear to front on your model, reducing, if not eliminating, the unsettling effect Gabriel experienced. 
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on November 29, 2018, 10:35:37 am
On the C14? Slow speed (parking lot, U-turns etc.) tight turn maneuvering? Still works for this on linked brakes below 12 mph.
.....and I personally use a lot of rear brake on dirt bikes in dirt, especially going down hill.

Another use is to tighten your line if you're running just a bit wide due to too much speed or the corner tightening up unexpectedly.  The front would help also, but at that moment,  I don't want more fork dive, because that decreases the fork angle (which tightens the steering a bit and lowers the front of the bike)  and more importantly (to me, anyway) puts more weight on the front when you may already have a lot on it and don't want to add more.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: BrissyGTR on December 02, 2018, 12:31:40 am
Check out this mod Gabriel for unlinking the GEN2 brakes. It is only recommended IF you are confident at working on braking systems.

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=13655.msg271927#msg271927 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=13655.msg271927#msg271927)
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Gabriel on January 27, 2019, 06:42:07 pm
Check out this mod Gabriel for unlinking the GEN2 brakes. It is only recommended IF you are confident at working on braking systems.

[url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=13655.msg271927#msg271927[/url] ([url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=13655.msg271927#msg271927[/url])

Oddly I was never notified about your post?
This looks like the simplest solution.
Thanks
; I have to assume that this decouples the linked system from the rear to the front and from the front to the rear.
I have not looked at how the ABS pump distributes it's pressures so I'm going to assume it's down the same line. (coming and going)
Does this make sense?
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Gabriel on January 27, 2019, 07:01:42 pm
Was there a part number list for this mod?
Thanks
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Freddy on January 27, 2019, 11:46:55 pm
This (my) set up (in reply 136 in the link above) removes the R to F link but retains the F to R link.

For those that are uncomfortable using the nut-bolt-washers-&-tape method I initially showed to terminate the displaced hose, I posted a pic of an improved way to do so.  That particular hose was from a wrecked bike.  It is used on the 1400 ABS unit.

http://www.kawasakionlineparts.com.au/partFinder/fiche/kawasaki/2009/zg1400-1400gtr/brake-piping#ficheZone (http://www.kawasakionlineparts.com.au/partFinder/fiche/kawasaki/2009/zg1400-1400gtr/brake-piping#ficheZone)


It is also shown in the 2nd pic of the very first post by the OP of this thread:

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13655.0;attach=15486 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13655.0;attach=15486)

The cross-over hose from L to R caliper should be from the earlier series 1 bike with ABS or if that's NLA, from later ZX14 bikes with ABS.  Note that this cross-over hose from ABS bikes is a different part number to non-ABS bikes and priced accordingly, apparently due to higher spec.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Gabriel on January 28, 2019, 04:09:43 am
I saw your earlier post.
I will be glad to just dump the rear to front connection.
Thanks for your effort.
Is the hose part number 43095D? Hard to tell in some of these diagrams?

(https://i.imgur.com/uhuXODN.png)
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Freddy on January 28, 2019, 04:42:53 am
43095-0219 or 43095-0220 

One hose is about 25mm longer than the other, which is immaterial.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Gabriel on January 28, 2019, 07:59:04 am
43095-0219 or 43095-0220 

One hose is about 25mm longer than the other, which is immaterial.
Thanks
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Gabriel on January 28, 2019, 08:10:15 am


EDIT: I've not been 100% happy with the method I used to block the displaced hose.  Having given more thought to it and scratching about in my tub of left-over bit from other jobs I came up with this short hose fitted with a 10x1mm plug.  The hose is from a 1400 ABS unit.  In stock form it joins the long steel pipes that run under the tank to the ABS unit - but it's a spare from a wrecked bike.  This short hose with plug will replace the displaced hose which presently runs to the right caliper.  It's necessary to lift the fuel tank to access the front end of the steel pipe to fit the 'block-off' hose. This update gives certainty that no leak will ever develop.  Of the 2 bikes I personally did the 'bolt & tape' block-off to, neither have developed any seepage whatsoever after more than 2 years with that somewhat primitive 'fix.'

(https://i.imgur.com/Shh38C6.jpg)
How did you bleed that dead ended line?
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Freddy on January 28, 2019, 05:27:39 pm
By loosening the plug, air and fluid will escape past the thread.  When the plug is tightened it seals against the inverted flare within.
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Gixerhp on March 11, 2019, 01:59:54 am
Yes, I installed the custom line splitting the left front brake line out of the ABS block and blocked the right front line out of ABS. I reinstalled the rear brake line as per normal setup. I've been testing it to make sure all is functioning normally and so far it seems right. I have ABS in the rear and I have ABS in the front. The problem that existed before which was when you were applying front brake and were to just touch the rear making it all of a sudden grab more front brake is gone. I can still feel that the rear brake pedal is effected by the front, but it isn't noticeably changing the braking characteristics other than the rear pedal feels a little stiffer when holding the front.

Overall I'm pretty sure I like the fix because I have ABS in both wheels now. With my other fix I liked the feel of the front lever and rear pedal better, but didn't have ABS in the rear. I just have to make up my mind as to which way I will stay with.

The parts were obtained from Galfer and are a t-fitting and two lines at 16cm and 20cm. I would shorten the 16cm to probably 15cm(that's the one on the left in photo) because it seemed a little long. Attached is my order sheet also.
So this totally removes the linked brakes at this point. I have read through this post. I wish the was a way just to swap out the ABS pump with a more simple one. Most sport bike's with ABS just have a front input and output as well the same on the rear !
This linked crap sucks....

Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Freddy on March 11, 2019, 05:58:50 am
What are you waiting for?  Do the mod then.  What ABS pump do you suggest would do the job and be as cheap and effective as this hose & fittings mod?
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: Gabriel on March 11, 2019, 09:52:21 am
I like the idea of removing the right front brake line and capping it at the junction under the tank and installing a hose that goes from the left front caliper to the right front caliper like was used on the 08/09 ABS models..
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: connie_rider on March 11, 2019, 01:01:37 pm
Take my word on this.   Don't do any wrenching.
On this bike, Train your brain/reflexes to use front brake only.
The Linked brakes work great to apply some rear brake.
               Problem solved!

Ride safe, Ted

PS: By doing this, you can still stab the rear as a last effort in "an emergency"..
          ("Might" add a little more braking). 
Title: Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on March 14, 2019, 08:05:23 pm
Take my word on this.   Don't do any wrenching.
On this bike, Train your brain/reflexes to use front brake only.
The Linked brakes work great to apply some rear brake.
               Problem solved!

Ride safe, Ted

PS: By doing this, you can still stab the rear as a last effort in "an emergency"..
          ("Might" add a little more braking).
mah

everyone is smarter than you, and I....

have at it...


disconnect everything, make it like my 1978 KZ 1000nLtd, and .....

just get on with it....come'on jut get it on......


mmmmm
(https://media.giphy.com/media/xT9DPhONuz1SpCONiM/giphy.gif)