Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Flienlow on August 21, 2013, 01:23:35 pm

Title: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: Flienlow on August 21, 2013, 01:23:35 pm
First off, I did read:

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=7802.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=7802.0)
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=4480.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=4480.0)
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=2027.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=2027.0)

Secondly, are there any general ("turn this all the way like this, then back out X# of turns ")   type of settings for this bike? If I was Marc Marquez and was sliding this bike at 100mph in a corner, I would probably care about SAG and all the fusing with measuring it up. I would know about preload and damping and what it all did. - But I'm not, and I don't. I'm just a simple man that wants to lope around a 700lb beast in relative comfort, with relative performance for what the machine is.I keep reading "turn this X# of MM" but I am not sure what it is or how to measure it,and prolly dont have the proper tool to measure anyway.
Having said all that, My C14 goes through a corner like a horrendus pile of elephant dung. I did purchase it preowned so for all intents and purposes, it just may be as good as it gets.- I dont know.
Anyhow, I was hoping for a simple fat ass (250lb) easy to do setting that I could try.  I fully realize I can go out there and start twisting ****, which I may do, but figured I would stop here first.
Cheers!
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: jsa on August 21, 2013, 01:35:29 pm
Since your complaint is specific to cornering, which tires do you have and how much tread is left?
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: ZG on August 21, 2013, 01:41:28 pm
Since your complaint is specific to cornering, which tires do you have and how much tread is left?


 :goodpost:




As for the suspension I'm assuming you're running the stock suspension right? IMO if you haven't had the sag set to your weight that's where you should start, it only costs about $20 to have a shop that knows what they're doing do it for you and it will make a world of difference, at least it always does for me. Once the sag is set it's pretty easy to adjust the rear based on what yer doing and what else you have on the bike (ie w/passenger add 10 clicks, bags and trunk loaded add 5 clicks, etc.)






 
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: sherob on August 21, 2013, 01:46:10 pm
I found that the PR2's were a bit more bouncy in rough surface cornering than Angels or Storms.

What PSI are you running your tires at too?   42psi?
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: Flienlow on August 21, 2013, 03:22:45 pm
I have PR2's and running them at 40psi. There is plenty of tread on them.
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: jsa on August 21, 2013, 04:48:10 pm
I have PR2's and running them at 40psi. There is plenty of tread on them.

PR2's are not known for great handling during the last third of the tire life but assuming they are not there yet, the next thing to check is the steering geometry.  Measuring sag is great if you are shopping for new springs but isn't really required just to set up the steering geometry the way you like it.  You can use the remote preload adjuster on the shock to raise the back end or back out the preload adjuster on the forks to quicken the steering geometry.  As a starting point I would put the forks in the middle and raise the back end as high as it will go and see if that improves the cornering. 
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: AZ-ZG on August 21, 2013, 04:58:14 pm
Does the owner's manual that comes with the bike have the baseline settings?
I don't remember and am too lazy to look.  :)
Get everything dialed in to stock settings.
Then, when you start changing things keep notes and change one thing at a time.
Find a plastic ruler with millimeters that you can cut in half.  I use it for measuring front preload. Half a ruler is easier than a whole one.

I just twiddled til I got what I like.
42 psi by the gauge and not the TPMS.

She rails the corners real good, even two-up.

Once you get it dialed, like ZG said, all you gotta do is change rear preload per your situation.

Have fun, yer not gonna break anything.   ;D.
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: pistole on August 21, 2013, 05:06:23 pm
Does the owner's manual that comes with the bike have the baseline settings?
I don't remember and am too lazy to look

- got.

- am lazy too.

.
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: Spanky on August 21, 2013, 08:21:52 pm
You may want to consider doing a search for a suspension set up guy near you. They know what they are doing and should get you much closer to optimum settings than you will achieve on your own. Proper set up can make a major change in the way the bike handles. Based on your weight (I am 260lbs so I speak from experience) new springs front and rear will be worth the money also. Good luck and I hope you get it set up correctly.
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: texrider on August 21, 2013, 08:25:00 pm
As said, a good place to start with the fork is to put the spring preloads in about the middle, and add rebound just enough to stop the pogo feeling.

The rear spring you may have to take off all preload and add it back until it will support your riding, without bottoming out. It also needs a lot of rebound applied. The rear spring on my '09 is quite strong, and I have zero preload for my 220 lbs plus gear.
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: shreveportSS on August 21, 2013, 08:36:08 pm
I will say that I have my suspension set up much stiffer than recommended. I set sag and probably added 2 rounds to the front and 5 clicks to the rear. Rides like a sport bike but it rides on rails.
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: SkyWalker on August 21, 2013, 11:59:30 pm
My take on C14 Susp Setting:

Static sag adjusted in the shop can do so much. Your motorcycle is a dynamic vehicle and will experience much greater vertical forces/accelerations while running down the road than standing still in a shop.

On the C14, Spring Preload is adjustable both front/rear, Compression Dampening is fixed and Rebound Dampening is adjustable both front/rear. (consult your operators manual for means of adjusting these http://kawasaki.com/DefaultFrame.aspx?strContentURL=/SITE/VIVEHICLEINFORMATION/VICHOOSEVEHICLE.ASP (http://kawasaki.com/DefaultFrame.aspx?strContentURL=/SITE/VIVEHICLEINFORMATION/VICHOOSEVEHICLE.ASP) )

I reduce preload and rebound on both front and rear. I feel it is easier to start soft and bouncy and work your way up in preload and rebound. My C14 now feel like my grandpa Buick.


SPRING PRELOAD

Spring Preload and Compression Dampening work in the same direction; providing resistance to sag. If you try to adjust your spring preload with small sharp bumps you'll get a compounded reaction of both Spring Preload and Compression Dampening, making it difficult to identify the effect of changes in Spring Preload.

The ideal terrain to fine tune your spring preload is a curve that includes a high amplitude and long wavelength bump (a long and deep bump, like a large swell on the ocean). Combining the "swell" with a curve will simulate an elevated vertical load. The slow and long "swell" bump will provide enough decoupling from the compression dampening so that you can concentrate on spring preload.

You should dial just enough preload so that the suspension doesn't bottom out but a the same time absorbs the bump.


REBOUND DAMPENING

Finish off by dialing in the rebound dampening on varied road surfaces. Sufficient rebound dampening will limit the bikes reaction to a single oscillation. Too much will make the bike choppy as the suspension will not recover rapidly enough for the next bump.


FWD/AFT BALANCE

Care is needed to balance these adjustments on both front and rear so that they work together.

If you're having problem finding an adequate balance between front and rear, re-soften one of the two and work your way back to proper adjustments.

Have fun.
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: The Pope on August 22, 2013, 04:00:59 am
 :goodpost:

But...... I think that the OP wants a very simplified and step by step method that someone who is mechanicaly challanged can understand. I'm not an expert on setting up a suspension, but I know that several of you are. So if some one can break it down ferther, I think the OP will appreciate it.

Something like......

On the front forks, the large hex nuts on the top of the forks are for adjusting .........(insert proper comments)
and  by turning them clockwise, you will be making them ........... (insert proper comments)
On the front forks, the small knobs just above the hex nuts previously mentioned will change ........(insert proper comments)

etc...
etc...
etc...

I "think" that this is what the OP would like. 
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: SkyWalker on August 22, 2013, 07:34:42 am
:goodpost:

But...... I think that the OP wants a very simplified and step by step method that someone who is mechanicaly challanged can understand. I'm not an expert on setting up a suspension, but I know that several of you are. So if some one can break it down ferther, I think the OP will appreciate it.

Something like......

On the front forks, the large hex nuts on the top of the forks are for adjusting .........(insert proper comments)
and  by turning them clockwise, you will be making them ........... (insert proper comments)
On the front forks, the small knobs just above the hex nuts previously mentioned will change ........(insert proper comments)

etc...
etc...
etc...

I "think" that this is what the OP would like.


I initially did what the Manual instructed. Whoever wrote these base settings back in Tokyo possibly never rode the C14 past the parking lot.

See pages 225, 226, 228 and 229 of the OP manual ( http://www.kawasaki-techinfo.net/show_pdf.php?manual=OM&pdf_name=99987-1707_EN_2_09.pdf (http://www.kawasaki-techinfo.net/show_pdf.php?manual=OM&pdf_name=99987-1707_EN_2_09.pdf) )

Over preloaded front and under dampened rear (I'm no light frame either at +250lbs :yikes:). So my empirical experiment started to get my setting dialed in.


Hope that all of our riding brothers get their suspensions dialed in at their very first attempt; sometimes fiddling with its adjustments feels like trying to find your way out of pitch dark room !

  :chugbeer:
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: Conrad on August 22, 2013, 08:48:58 am
Have a look at this table of settings, it may be of some help.

http://www.zggtr.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=496 (http://www.zggtr.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=496)
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on August 22, 2013, 11:50:22 am
First off, it's DAMPING, not dampening.  This makes me crazy.  Yes, I am slightly OCD.

OP wants the bike set up for HIM. One of the first questions to ask is, "What does HE want?"  Soft and floaty?  Firm and controlled?  Better low speed handling?  More stability in high speed sweepers?
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: Conrad on August 22, 2013, 01:11:58 pm
First off, it's DAMPING, not dampening.  This makes me crazy.  Yes, I am slightly OCD.

Have you met Maxtog yet?   ;)

OP wants the bike set up for HIM. One of the first questions to ask is, "What does HE want?"  Soft and floaty?  Firm and controlled?  Better low speed handling?  More stability in high speed sweepers?

Yes.
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: maxtog on August 22, 2013, 04:30:36 pm
Have you met Maxtog yet?   ;)

I am O but only slightly C

Not commenting on suspension because, quite honestly, it confuses the crap out of me.  I know that my setup is far from "right" and nothing I do is going to make it better, so I just leave it alone.
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: PH14 on August 23, 2013, 09:49:18 am
I have PR2's and running them at 40psi. There is plenty of tread on them.

Have you considered running the recommended tire pressure, 42 PSI, first?  :banghead:
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: VirginiaJim on August 25, 2013, 09:29:11 am
I am O but only slightly C

Not commenting on suspension because, quite honestly, it confuses the crap out of me.  I know that my setup is far from "right" and nothing I do is going to make it better, so I just leave it alone.

You ain't the only one...
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: speed545 on August 25, 2013, 11:30:36 am
You ain't the only one...

we re now 3

if I mentally condition myself hard enough by thinking my setup is ok, it will be ok.  ;D
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: VirginiaJim on August 25, 2013, 01:19:38 pm
 :thumbs:
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: ssbraun on August 25, 2013, 01:20:24 pm
I'm about the same weight as you with gear, and was in the same situation a week ago prior to my 2nd trip of the year (bike was wallowing in the long turns over any bumps).  After a lot of digging, here is what I came up with:
Front:
preload: 8mm (this is the distance from the top of the hex nut you turn to the top of the hex you are turning it into or out of).  There is a pic in the manual.  Sorry, but you'll need to measure this adjustment; make certain that it is equal on both forks.
rebound damping: 3 clicks ccw from full cw.

Rear:
preload: 18 clicks cw from full ccw.
rebound damping:  1 turn ccw from full cw

My bike was stock prior to these adjustments, and was WAY to soft!!  These settings resulted in a significant improvement; the bike felt planted and was far more confidence inspiring to ride.  I'm no race pro, but I like to hustle through the corners.  The bike worked exceedingly well for me considering the mass of the bike plus rider plus luggage!

I know that there are more accurate ways to set up the bike, but this should at least get you closer than stock for a heavier rider.

I hope this helps you!

Cheers   :chugbeer:
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: Flienlow on August 26, 2013, 09:12:41 am
I'm about the same weight as you with gear, and was in the same situation a week ago prior to my 2nd trip of the year (bike was wallowing in the long turns over any bumps).  After a lot of digging, here is what I came up with:
Front:
preload: 8mm (this is the distance from the top of the hex nut you turn to the top of the hex you are turning it into or out of).  There is a pic in the manual.  Sorry, but you'll need to measure this adjustment; make certain that it is equal on both forks.
rebound damping: 3 clicks ccw from full cw.

Rear:
preload: 18 clicks cw from full ccw.
rebound damping:  1 turn ccw from full cw

My bike was stock prior to these adjustments, and was WAY to soft!!  These settings resulted in a significant improvement; the bike felt planted and was far more confidence inspiring to ride.  I'm no race pro, but I like to hustle through the corners.  The bike worked exceedingly well for me considering the mass of the bike plus rider plus luggage!

I know that there are more accurate ways to set up the bike, but this should at least get you closer than stock for a heavier rider.

I hope this helps you!

Cheers   :chugbeer:


I will give this a go. Thanks!
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: Flienlow on August 31, 2013, 11:14:13 pm
This was a great improvement. :)
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: VirginiaJim on August 31, 2013, 11:18:44 pm
Something to keep in mind as well is the condition of the front fork fluid.  I would think that older/dirtier fluid could change the way the adjustments work.  My bike needs the fluid changed.  It's been in since day one and I have 56k miles on it.  The front is not handling as well....feels a bit stiff no matter where you set the adjustments.  That's another maintenance item on my list to do this fall.
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: clogan on September 01, 2013, 09:00:43 am
First off, it's DAMPING, not dampening.  This makes me crazy.  Yes, I am slightly OCD.


It's CDO, not OCD!!! I wish people would start saying it correctly!
CDO is the same thing as OCD, except in CDO, the letters are in the correct order - the way they SHOULD be!


;-)
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: JJFLASH on September 02, 2013, 06:22:55 am
First off, I did read:

[url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=7802.0[/url] ([url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=7802.0[/url])
[url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=4480.0[/url] ([url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=4480.0[/url])
[url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=2027.0[/url] ([url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=2027.0[/url])

Secondly, are there any general ("turn this all the way like this, then back out X# of turns ")   type of settings for this bike? If I was Marc Marquez and was sliding this bike at 100mph in a corner, I would probably care about SAG and all the fusing with measuring it up. I would know about preload and damping and what it all did. - But I'm not, and I don't. I'm just a simple man that wants to lope around a 700lb beast in relative comfort, with relative performance for what the machine is.I keep reading "turn this X# of MM" but I am not sure what it is or how to measure it,and prolly dont have the proper tool to measure anyway.
Having said all that, My C14 goes through a corner like a horrendus pile of elephant dung. I did purchase it preowned so for all intents and purposes, it just may be as good as it gets.- I dont know.
Anyhow, I was hoping for a simple fat ass (250lb) easy to do setting that I could try.  I fully realize I can go out there and start twisting ****, which I may do, but figured I would stop here first.
Cheers!


Always late to the party...and the wrong forum to boot.

The 2012 Summer edition of the Concourier magazine has an article written by Fred Harmon that has just the table you are looking for.

In addition to instructions for setting the sag , it includes a front and rear set up for different rider weights.

Good luck
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: maxtog on September 02, 2013, 06:42:40 am
Always late to the party...and the wrong forum to boot.

The 2012 Summer edition of the Concourier magazine has an article written by Fred Harmon that has just the table you are looking for.

Is that postable, or copyrighted material?
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: DeansZG on September 02, 2013, 07:49:52 am
It's CDO, not OCD!!! I wish people would start saying it correctly! CDO is the same thing as OCD, except in CDO, the letters are in the correct order - the way they SHOULD be!;-)

Thanks for the correction, now I gotta clean off the keyboard from the coffee that sprayed from my nose! :thumbs:
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: VirginiaJim on September 02, 2013, 08:15:42 am
Is that postable, or copyrighted material?

If it was in the magazine, it's protected, I think.  The magazine, from what I recall, is also available to COG members online so it could be postable but would violate something if it were put online.  I would not let it stand here, unfortunately.  What members do outside the forum is outside of our control.  Nuff said.
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: gPink on September 02, 2013, 08:31:23 am
If it was in the magazine, it's protected, I think.  The magazine, from what I recall, is also available to COG members online so it could be postable but would violate something if it were put online.  I would not let it stand here, unfortunately.  What members do outside the forum is outside of our control.  Nuff said.
Keep believing that.
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: VirginiaJim on September 02, 2013, 09:20:54 am
Like this?

The Outer Limits Intro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CtjhWhw2I8#)
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 02, 2013, 12:35:29 pm
Is that postable, or copyrighted material?

it is copywrited material.
cannot be posted without prior written consent of COG, or unless you are the original writer of the data...
 ;)
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: katata1100 on September 02, 2013, 08:01:43 pm
If something is in a magazine, you can paraphrase it.
My wish for the a good sticky would be a chart of suspension settings where for every 10 or 20 lbs of rider weight, there would be suggested settings for two or three goals/
Like, if you weigh 220, there would be settings for soft touring/all around/sport riding
Then, at 230 some slightly different numbers for the three types of riding. It would be much simpler to look up a chart like that than find a dealer to give money to who might or might not get it right.
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: sdentrem on September 03, 2013, 04:24:46 am
I have a related question to this. I have my setup pretty close to what I want it...it's just a tad soft in the faster corners. My problem is, how to i figure out whether the front or the back is too soft? 
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: VirginiaJim on September 03, 2013, 05:11:58 am
Knowing the bike as it is, my suspicion would be that the front is too soft..  The rear of the bike generally doesn't have any issues with being too soft.
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: PH14 on September 05, 2013, 12:37:20 pm
Have a look at this table of settings, it may be of some help.

[url]http://www.zggtr.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=496[/url] ([url]http://www.zggtr.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=496[/url])


I have been going over this again, and see that the settings for front for preload is given as, "from all the way out." That can't be right based on the manual. The manual shows an adjustment range of 4mm~19mm, and that range is measured as the amount showing, not from all the way out. So, the chart shows the standard setting for a 150 Lb rider as 15 mm from all the way out, so that would then be 4 mm showing based on the adjustment range of 4 mm ~ 19 mm. That makes no sense since the standard setting is 14 mm showing. I guess you must be able to run the adjuster out farther than the acceptable range.

I have been on bikes for over 30 years and I have never seen a value for preload given as all the way out for the type of adjusters we have on the C14, it is always given as lines showing or a measurement of what is showing.

To get a value of 14 mm showing based on 15 mm from all the way out as the chart says, you would have to be able to run the adjuster all the way out to 29 mm showing.

I also see that the poster of the chart shows that he felt it best when set at 14 mm from all the way out and 3 clicks from all the way in. So the fork preload would be softer but it would have more rebound damping. While I can believe that may be the case, I do find it questionable.

Mine is currently set at 12.7 mm showing  I weight in at 160-165 depending on the day, and my wife is all of maybe 115. I was planning on increasing preload a bit today. The bike handles well but is harsh at times over the bumps. I cannot tell if this is because the preload it too high or if I am bottoming out. I will experiment more today.
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: VirginiaJim on September 05, 2013, 06:55:42 pm
You don't weigh enough...
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: PH14 on September 05, 2013, 07:37:29 pm
You don't weigh enough...

 :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: maxtog on September 05, 2013, 09:54:27 pm
You don't weigh enough...

Hmm..... then I will be in trouble.  On diet for 3 months, lost 22 pounds.  Now weigh 142 undressed!
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: VirginiaJim on September 06, 2013, 02:37:18 am
Too much information... :_shudder_Emoticon
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: Conrad on September 06, 2013, 05:01:48 am
Too much information... :_shudder_Emoticon

+1    :o

Whacha losing all that weight for Max? 
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: gPink on September 06, 2013, 05:17:35 am
Must compensate for that huge muffler.
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: Conrad on September 06, 2013, 05:49:46 am
Must compensate for that huge muffler.

Maybe he could just 'spot reduce' on his right side? Oh wait, he'd never be able to lose enough to compensate without losing a leg...    ;)
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: gPink on September 06, 2013, 05:53:22 am
Ride side saddle?
Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: ZG on September 06, 2013, 09:33:12 am
Must compensate for that huge muffler.


 :rotflmao:

Title: Re: Suspension for the completely stupid
Post by: Flienlow on September 06, 2013, 06:07:36 pm
Hmm..... then I will be in trouble.  On diet for 3 months, lost 22 pounds.  Now weigh 142 undressed!

I found your 22 pounds. You can have it back now!!