Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: Alphonzo on September 04, 2013, 07:26:50 pm

Title: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Alphonzo on September 04, 2013, 07:26:50 pm
Some history - bike has new major tuneup - plugs, wires, valve adjustment.  Carbs have been thoroughly cleaned on the bike and work great, except for idle.  Bike has 21,000 miles and runs great, gets great mileage and will really move out, if pushed.  There was a hesitation right off idle but the can of sea foam took care of that.

The idle is, well, weird.  It seems to rumble.  The tach cycles, running slower then faster in regular rithum.  It seems to have a vacuum leak and, if it was a car, that's what I'd be checking. 

I cleaned the vacuum valve that lets air into the exhaust.  Of everything I see, that seems to be the one possibility that could cause a cycling, rumbling miss.  Are those things known to go bad?  What happens if you just disconnect it, and plug the vacuum line?

I'll bet somebody that has had a lot of experience with the concours can tell me what's wrong right away.  I sure would appreciate it.

Oh, and can I get a brighter headlight bulb?  What bulb should I buy?
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Summit670 on September 04, 2013, 08:30:17 pm
I don't claim to be a guru. 

If a shop did the major tune up and the bike doesn't run right, I'd think about taking it back to them.

If there was a slight hesitation after the carb cleaning, and a can of sea foam seemed to take care of it, then I would question how thorough the carbs were cleaned and maybe they need to be cleaned again.

I'm guessing you bought this bike used.

Did the bike exhibit this trait prior to the tune up and did that make any diff?

I'd make sure all the vac lines are attached and in good condition, as well as checking the carb to boot clamps.

You didn't say if the carbs had been synced.

What year is the bike because if older you could have a coil pickup problem.  I did, where one of the wires was intermittently losing contact at various rpms.

I'm not sure what you mean by vacuum valve.  I'm not aware of anything that lets air into the exhaust.

Brighter headlight bulb - I'm not sure if there is a Silverstar option but I heard those are good but the life is shorter.  There is another option to go to a higher wattage bulb but I believe to be safe you will want to replace the headlight wiring harness or something to prevent it from melting.  I believe Murphs Kits has a kit. http://www.murphskits.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_28&products_id=102 (http://www.murphskits.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_28&products_id=102)
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Mettler1 on September 04, 2013, 08:45:41 pm
  It's possible to remove the whole vacuum system with these.

         http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=99.msg595#msg595 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=99.msg595#msg595)

   gets rid of a crap under the tank.
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Alphonzo on September 04, 2013, 08:51:44 pm
Hey Mettler1 - thanks for replying.

No shop works on my bike.  I almost got killed once 'cause of making that mistake.  NEVER AGAIN!  All I get done now is tires mounted, 'cause I don't have a balancer, and that scares me to death!

The carbs were cleaned on the bike with different carb cleaning products.  If I absolutely have to I will rebuild them next spring - not much sense in doing that at the end of the season.  I am waiting to get everything else ironed out first, then I will synch the carbs.

Yeah, it was doing this from the start and it has gotten better, but not gone away.

It's a 2001

The thing is called the PAIR system.  http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg136/hoggone/Concours%20pictures/027_zps4bb1662d.jpg (http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg136/hoggone/Concours%20pictures/027_zps4bb1662d.jpg)  - A pic of where it goes, but this guy removed it.

I found the headlight info in another post.

Where was the pickup wire losing contact?  At the pickup?  Oh, I hope not, cause all that plastic would have to come off again...  I have thought of finding and cleaning the place where the pickup wires plug in but have yet to do so.  Do you know where that is?
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Mettler1 on September 04, 2013, 08:56:59 pm
  Wanna know about carbs on the Concours?  Steve in Sunny Florida has gotten them down pat.

   Here is his website for some good reading.

          https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/

             https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/intake-and-exhaust

Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Mettler1 on September 04, 2013, 09:03:32 pm
  Also forgot to add about hydrolock  and overflow tubes on the carb bowls. Good reading and could save you a destroyed engine.  Info also on Steve's website.
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Alphonzo on September 04, 2013, 09:05:35 pm
I do believe that you can get a used set of bowls from the voyager 12 which are a direct replacement, and they have the overflow tubes.
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Mettler1 on September 04, 2013, 09:11:37 pm
  Yes you can if you can find them. I never looked as I already have Steve's but have heard the kind of rare. If you find a source, grab'em!
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Mettler1 on September 04, 2013, 09:20:03 pm
  I'm assuming you mean the pickup wire for the tach. My tach works fine so I never had to look for it. ::)

   Idle is the Concours weak spot from idle (1100 rpm) to about 3000 rpm. You will find that on Steve's website also.
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Alphonzo on September 04, 2013, 09:22:41 pm
No, the ignition pickups.  I can see the wires coming from the left side of the motor but difficult to see where they go?
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Mettler1 on September 04, 2013, 09:27:33 pm
No, the ignition pickups.  I can see the wires coming from the left side of the motor but difficult to see where they go?
yes the pickups are behind that cover. I assume they were for ignition only but you are right as they probably go to the tach also.
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Alphonzo on September 04, 2013, 09:29:16 pm
Yeah, where were the wires loose on those pickups?
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Mettler1 on September 04, 2013, 09:39:51 pm
  I assume that if there were loose wires in there in would also effect ignition also. Last time I was in there all I found was the pickups and the wires went directly out. When it comes to electricity I only know the pain when I grab the wrong one!! :o
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Mettler1 on September 04, 2013, 09:43:42 pm
  As far as a brighter bulb I use an 80/100 watt with Murphs' headlight relay kit.uses heavier wire and plug for less resistance and heat.
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Mettler1 on September 04, 2013, 09:52:43 pm
  I mentioned "hydrolock" early and don't know if you have heard of it but is a video that explains it.

       Concours ZG1000 hydrolock rod test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W6k3pTdAXw#)
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 05, 2013, 05:35:16 am
Obviously there could be a few factors to a cycling idle, but honestly the factory idle isn't anything to write home about from the git-go. The pilot air screws are adjusted very lean, and then capped to be "tamper proof" . Even on totally proper and clean carbs, the idle will be better if the caps are drilled off and the pilots screws set at 2 turns.

Syncing is also important, but needs to be done after a valve adjustment. you may have a tight intake valve causing low vacuum on a given cylinder, and of course that's going to show up as a poor sync and even worse idle / low speed operation. HTH, steve
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Summit670 on September 05, 2013, 07:14:56 am
No, the ignition pickups.  I can see the wires coming from the left side of the motor but difficult to see where they go?

The ignition pickups behind the left side engine cover.  There is a gapping spec too, which is easy to check.  I had narrowed down my choices for a running issue I had and when I adjusted the gap it seemed to go away, only to return later.  I figured they got out of adjustment again but checking them revealed not.  I took a shot and ordered new coil pickups.  Very easy install.  Connection, as I recall, is up towards the seat/tank. 

When I had the old unit off, I figured I'd cut it open to see exactly what was inside that might be causing my problem.  When I started hacksawing on it, one of the wires came out of the pickup.  I thought hmm, I may as well pull the other out but tugging on it couldn't budge it so there was no way that first wire should have come out so easy.  Like $115 for new pickup.  This was on an 87 model and I replaced it about 3 years ago with around 70,000 miles.

I'd suspect the carbs need to be pulled and cleaned.  I've never had much luck with the add-to-gas carb cleaners.  I once soaked dirty carb parts in straight STP add-to-gas cleaner (overnight) and figured that would clean them right up and it barely touched them.  I bought the commercial soak (Chem-something) and it cleaned the parts in about 20 minutes.
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: DeansZG on September 05, 2013, 10:24:24 am

  If you're still trying to chase down a vacuum leak, a little shot of carb cleaner around the carb boots & carb assy while its' running, may help pinpoint it a little easier.
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Alphonzo on September 05, 2013, 01:09:31 pm
Hey Summit, Deans, thanks for replying.

Pulled the tank and checked the vacuum to the aspirator valve and the tank petcock.  No leakage there so I left it alone.  I was able to get a long phillips onto 3 of the 4 carb-side clamps and the right two tightened down a bit - the outside one quite a bit.  Maybe that will help. 

Found the intermediate plug (right where the tank bolts on) and the plug on the ecu.  Resistance to the pickup coils is within spec.  Cleaned the contacts and applied dielectric grease as I reassembled it. 

I'll take it out this evening when it cools off.  Maybe it's fixed.  I started it and it might have sounded better - won't be able to really tell until it's running at operating temp.

Thanks for the tips - we'll figure this out .)
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Daytona_Mike on September 06, 2013, 05:47:49 pm
 :popcorn:
'The carbs were cleaned on the bike with different carb cleaning products.'

I am not going to say one word..not one.
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: T Cro ® on September 06, 2013, 06:05:27 pm
:popcorn:
'The carbs were cleaned on the bike with different carb cleaning products.'

I am not going to say one word..not one.

Just two then? NOT CLEAN ...



Very likely that the slow speed jets and/or their passages are not fully cleared of some gumming debris. These jets are really tiny and once blocked there is just about no chance that any cleaning product will blast through; it usually takes a tiny wire/drill etc to mechanically clear them; also compressed air in volume is an absolute necessity too...
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Alphonzo on September 06, 2013, 07:23:11 pm
Yeah - but I just buy new jets, 'cause that wire will change the size...

I agree.  But I'm not gonna rebuild these carbs, then  let 'em sit dry all winter.  I'll just do it before I put it on the road, next spring.  I'll check out the airbox then, too.  That will give me time to get my head together on what I want to do to it, as well.

So the goal for now is just to get it going good enough to ride, and it is.  I don't think the carbs have ever been off the bike so the plugs are likely still in the idle screw holes, too.  And so, maybe the bike is running really good, considering that.

The concours runs great.  I just have to ride it fifteen minutes before it warms up, then it's smoooothe as silk, except at idle.  The bike handles well and, overall, is a joy to ride.  But you gotta watch the thing when the tank is full!  WOAH!

I like the way the bike looks, too.  Never had a blue bike, before - kinda like the color.  I saw one on here that is orange, with darker paint near the edges.  That thing looks great!

There's a funny looking thing under the seat at the back.  Is that the mount for those trunks?  I see they go for like $300... a bit rich for my blood!  I don't like the bags much.  I had them on the bike and they made it so fat it hit the fence, on the way into the back yard!  It didn't look like it would be very hard to rip them off the bike, even if they were locked.  I like to carry some nice camera equipment.  Heck, if I can ride and shoot pictures, too...!  lol

Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: 2fast on September 06, 2013, 08:27:40 pm
:popcorn:
'The carbs were cleaned on the bike with different carb cleaning products.'

I am not going to say one word..not one.

OK Mike, I'll take it for the team. You are showing amazing restraint!!!  Carbs are finicky. They can NOT be cleaned on the bike. Just trust me on this.......or not. Many have gone before you, and the results are pretty predictable.  If you do not know exactly what you are doing, it is even difficult to do it right OFF the bike. This is why Steve is so friggin busy doing carbs, plus he adds overflow tubes, and sets the critical float levels properly,  and really knows his stuff.
Man, if we each had nickel for every guy that tried to clean his own carbs without knowing how to do it well........we would all be rich!  Money spent with Steve is really a bargain, but don't take my word for it, do the work yourself! When you get a chance to ride a bike that has the carbs right you will be totally amazed at how nice it can be. Mine pulls like silk from about 2 grand up. Typical connies are crap until about 4-5 grand, but they have no idea that this can be cured.
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Alphonzo on September 07, 2013, 04:38:00 am
Mine pulls like silk from 1200 up.

I don't need Steve, or anyone else, thank you very much.

I was lurking on another site where I saw how Steve and his pals treat people.  It will be a cold day in hell when I do business with that guy - even if I needed his services, which I don't.

Let me make this very plain.  I will not buy anything.  If that means I am not welcome on here, just say so.
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: T Cro ® on September 07, 2013, 04:59:54 am
Mine pulls like silk from 1200 up.

I don't need Steve, or anyone else, thank you very much.
I was lurking on another site where I saw how Steve and his pals treat people.  It will be a cold day in hell when I do business with that guy - even if I needed his services, which I don't.

Let me make this very plain.  I will not buy anything.  If that means I am not welcome on here, just say so.


Don't care anything about what goes on at other sites but you are most certinly welcome here...


BUT copping a tude here will get you absolutely no where!


BTW Steve's responce to you here was both helpful and friendly.......
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: gPink on September 07, 2013, 06:17:25 am
 :o  :popcorn:

So all the guys who have been working on these bikes for over 20 years can pound sand? Seems to be an unusual attitude going around. Just a guess but I think the help has dried up Alphonzo.
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: 2fast on September 07, 2013, 08:13:58 am
It does not matter what you buy from anyone. You came asking for some advice and got it.
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Daytona_Mike on September 07, 2013, 10:49:14 am
The carbs were cleaned on the bike with different carb cleaning products.
The above proves that you do need help and you do not know what  your doing even though you think you do.

Mine pulls like silk from 1200 up.
No your bike does not. You stated you have not even synched your carbs after a valve adjust and a so called 'Cleaning'. No stock C10 pulls smoothly. They all have a dip which is clearly seen on a dyno. Do you have any dyno runs to back up your 'smooth as silk statement? Of course you you dont.   I have many and so do many others  here so listen and learn.

If that means I am not welcome on here, just say so.
Fix your attitude. Of course you do not have to buy anything but  you do have to have to conduct your self with a proper attitude.
Listen to those who know and you may learn otherwise you are wasting yours and our time.

Brian- so much for my restraint- gone!
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 07, 2013, 11:53:06 am
Mine pulls like silk from 1200 up.

I don't need Steve, or anyone else, thank you very much.

I was lurking on another site where I saw how Steve and his pals treat people.  It will be a cold day in hell when I do business with that guy - even if I needed his services, which I don't.

Let me make this very plain.  I will not buy anything.  If that means I am not welcome on here, just say so.



pulls like silk eh....
well to each his own
(http://www.silkroadgourmet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/pamphlet-title-page.jpg)

do you know anything about Shinola?  there's another saying that contains it... but we can't use it here....not allowed...
DIDJA EVER  THINK that Steve, AND his PALS live here also????
so, just like the people on the OTHER site, you are gonna come here and begin Dissing the Guru's as some call them, and get any kind of viable answers to questions you apparently seem to have answers for (in your own mind) as with the other 3 people in the last week "over there"...

go lurk somewhere....

here's a tune to whistle on the way...

oh, we'll (the guys that you dissed) be sending you a complete refund of all the fees you paid to be a member here also... actually we'll include a %50 bonus of that figure in the check, just to ease the pain...   ;)
http://youtu.be/yzfzsKENCbU (http://youtu.be/yzfzsKENCbU)
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: SteveJ. on September 07, 2013, 06:40:58 pm
Isn't there a new ZG group on Yahoo? This guy could join and double the membership.

Something in the water lately??
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Alphonzo on September 07, 2013, 11:00:36 pm
Well well...  I see the GANG is all here.  And I am, of course, surprised, by that!  No, really - I never expected it...

Now you are telling ME how my bike runs, without ever having seen it...  You are telling me my carbs are not clean, without ever having seem them...  Indeed, you do know a lot - an AWFUL lot.  The Russians are experimenting with remote viewing.  Looks like they found their guys!

You may not know it, but I do time travel :)  I can go back to the night you cats (and I have trouble with this next word) THOUGHT all this up.

(The screen fades to black, then comes back in sepia tone.  A bunch of drunken, stupid rednecks sit around a table, sniffing glue, and quaffing brew...)

"...Hey, ya know, this new internet thing... we just might be able to use it, to get more business for the shop."

"Naw."

"No, really.  We will go onto these... forum things, and we will take them over!  We will be the experts, on the concours bike.  We will convince Mr. Rich Business Man that he needs to... have his carbs rebuilt..."

He is interrupted  "Naw.  All they gotta do is put some sea foam in the tank."

"Well, yeah, but THEY don't know that!  We'll con the little coins, right of their pockets.  We'll go to all the rallies and we'll act like the goodest 'ol boys, that ever was.  We'll give some stuff to the club, every once in a while and, after they're BOUGHT, they won't give us any trouble...  LISTEN - we can end up OWNING the place and make a lot of money, at the same time!"

And you are right.  W.C. fields was right, too, when he said, "There's a SUCKER, born every minute."

The thing that just might be beyond your meager abilities is, there are intelligent people, watching this; people who can actually put 2 and 2 together, and get 4.  And that's about all it takes, in this case!  Your choices and actions seem illogical, UNTIL your motives are deduced .)  And that takes about 0 minutes - roflmao!

No, really - I am a bad, BAD man, and I slander these... fine, upright gentlemen, because...  uh, what's in it for me?  And they gang up on me, whenever I make the slightest peep, because... well, because I am raining, on their parade; because I'm saying things like "I cleaned the carbs on the bike and now they work great" and they can't HAVE that...

Every tough guy finds out there is somebody tougher, real quick.  And every con artist finds someone their line of BS does not convince.  So be good sports about it, guys - after all, nobody bats a thousand and there will always be a bazillion stupid people, for you to prey upon.

Oh, and I didn't set you up.  Seriously.  I would never do that.  It just HAPPENED this way...

But, no matter - all you gotta do is have one of your droogs to delete this post and your "secret" ROFLMAO! will be safe...
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: timmerz on September 08, 2013, 12:12:02 am
Alphonzo, you're 'WAY off here. I have no affiliations with anyone on this board, and came here when I bought my Concours a couple of years ago, and asked questions just like you did, and got some answers that helped me out tremendously....there are always going to be answers you get that won't fit your game plan, but you just pass those by and get along with the general population, just like in everyday life...throwing inflammatory statements out there like you did just guarantees that nobody will ever even click on a thread that has your name attached...
We're not here to argue and flame each other, we're here to try to help each other with the best knowledge we can come up with for each situation...
Hope you read this and absorb it with the same attitude I'm typing it in...trying to smooth the rough waters that have been stirred up...
Tim
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: Alphonzo on September 08, 2013, 12:46:06 am
Of course I am, Timmers.  And as long as you don't look a gift horse in the mouth, so shall I remain :)

As for my part, it's time I finally grew up.  Why should I help IDIOTS?  If God did not grant them the tools, and/or the will to help themselves, who am I to interfere?

If you can not follow the logic in my post, it is because you do not want to do so.

It seems to me that life is filled, to overflowing, with choices between doing what feels good, and doing what works.  For those that choose the former, there is little hope.

Your bike will, no doubt, run well when you pay Steve $300 (+ shipping, 2 ways) to do your carbs.  And you will have the overflow tubes, as well.  The fact that you MIGHT be able to get the same thing, minus the tubes, for a $9 investment in a can of sea foam needs to be mentioned, as well. 
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 08, 2013, 01:37:23 am
The fact that you MIGHT be able to get the same thing, minus the tubes, for a $9 investment in a can of sea foam needs to be mentioned, as well.

i'M NOT SURE IF MOST ENEMA BAGS ARE SEAFOAM FRIENDLY, BUT PLEASE USE ONE, AND REPORT BACK.....
thanks for coming, hang out as long as you wish, I am sure it will get better from here on out....

if you dispute the fact the carbs should come off, and be cleaned and adjusted correctly, whether you do them, or someone with experience does them, free or with compensation, you are only lying to yourself... especially when you said it isn't worth doing now, because theres only a couple months of riding left this year.... just park the damned bike in the garage now, and fix it in the spring.....
better yet, sell it.
hell, any of these guys you are biotch slapping, me included, could do this service in less than 4 hours, for a burger and a beer.... but for an a-hole like you, we'ed say go p*** up a rope.

oh, and don't start calling us stupid bubbas... you may find we have a collective endeavorment much higher than the norm, and none of us utter the phrase "hold my beer and watch this..."

butt wipe

 ::) ::) ::)

you are the third person, in less than a week, with a residency of 10 days or less, to call ass on multiple people with the credentials, and the willingness to give straight answers, without a dollar figure... somehow I'm not getting the "I have to pay someone" thing you seem to have in your brain.

at the risk of alianating myself here, and getting a slap on my hand, I will just say...


move on
please.

you burned the bridge, peed in the pool, and generally made a real good impression. ::)

you can always go back over to the official COG forum, and even buy a COG membership (by all means I highly recommend that) and then you can complain we don't treat you well.... and if that isn't working, you can threaten everyone, and start a YAHOO group to dis us all.... not like that ain't been done before, in the last week.... man. what is going on in peoples brains these days? ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: a couple questions for a concours guru ?
Post by: T Cro ® on September 08, 2013, 03:45:54 am
And this thread has run it's course... CLOSED

As to the personnel attacks directed towards its members it will not be tolerated...