Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 16, 2015, 05:48:35 am

Title: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 16, 2015, 05:48:35 am
  Just wanted to give y'all a heads up, I've released my Concours 14 ECU flash. I think many of y'all know me from the work I've done with the c-10's but some may not know I've been working with the 14's for a couple years now. It's really a fantastic bike, but when it came to the EFI system Kawasaki certainly left some goodness on the table. With my new flash low rpm flatness and throttle snatchiness is gone, Low rpm torque and fuel ecomomy is improved, and the top end gain of 14 hp is pretty substantial.

   We're well past the proving stage, I've done several dozen ECU's so far and the reports are consistent and positive.

   You can visit my site (in my sig line) or send me your email in a PM for more info. Here's the page on my site

     https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/concours1400

   Here's my bike, same dyno, same day, minutes apart, stock run then flashed run.

   thanks, Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on November 16, 2015, 06:08:06 am
Steve, will you be listing, either here or on your website, what intake/exhaust configurations your reflash is tested for and will you update the list as more come on board?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 16, 2015, 06:16:21 am
Currently the flash will work for stock configurations and slip ons. Air fliters aren't an issue. Of course there are some with full aftermarket exhausts, and currently I'm not supporting that, though I do have a full Area P system waiting to be installed and then I'll do a map for the area p system.

   I think the biggest Issue I've faced so far is the questions - set forth as assertions - by folks who have no clue about what they are typing. There are a lot of wives tales and internet lore surrounding the tuning of the c-14, and some folks want to held steadfast to incorrect information, probably because it's all they have had to date. i'm glad to answer questions, but I won't divulge specifics of my tune. Read the reports, don't take anything I say at face value, research it.  Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on November 16, 2015, 06:32:06 am
Will this work on all year bikes, Steve?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 16, 2015, 06:39:30 am
Yes, I've done 2008's to 2015's and all years in between.  Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on November 16, 2015, 08:14:56 am
Thanks for posting this, Steve.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 16, 2015, 09:18:35 am
Thank You Jim, I wanted to wait til I had all the T's crossed and I's dotted before I posted it up here  :yikes:  Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Rhino on November 16, 2015, 09:27:54 am
What is your turn around time if I send you my ECU?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 16, 2015, 09:43:33 am
What is your turn around time if I send you my ECU?

  1 day unless something prevents me from doing so, like I'm on a trip (not often, but one this weekend)   :o Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Rhino on November 16, 2015, 10:28:10 am
  1 day unless something prevents me from doing so, like I'm on a trip (not often, but one this weekend)   :o Steve

Thank you, I'll contact you about getting this done when I see a week of bad weather coming. I commute on my bike. Probably January.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: rhhall on November 16, 2015, 09:34:30 pm
Had the magic done on my ECU. Big grin factor. Very happy with the results. Sent mine to Steve on a Monday and got it back on Friday.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: mikeeitup on November 19, 2015, 10:01:00 am
Hello! Idiot over here! Can I flash this to my PCV? Spanks
Mike
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 19, 2015, 11:06:07 am
Hello! Idiot over here! Can I flash this to my PCV? Spanks
Mike

 No, this flashes to the ECU and does much more than can be done with a pcv. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: AlbertaDoug on November 21, 2015, 12:37:53 pm
Does it matter much if the flies are pulled? Or can one leave them in with your flash?

Thanks for your time and effort doing this.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Classvino on November 21, 2015, 04:36:46 pm
Does it matter much if the flies are pulled? Or can one leave them in with your flash?

Thanks for your time and effort doing this.

I think Steve  said he was out riding this weekend (those lucky Floridians) but from all the talk on the other forum, his flash is designed to use with the flies in.  It's designed to work on his bike, which so far, by design, is 100% stock.

If I've read and recollected correctly, (and from this point forward you're relying on my memory) he says removing them can hamper overall performance...  something about turbulence and airflow...  way beyond me...

Jamie
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: AlbertaDoug on November 21, 2015, 10:37:56 pm
Thanks  8)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 23, 2015, 01:37:59 pm
Does it matter much if the flies are pulled? Or can one leave them in with your flash?

   the flash takes control of the flies and other aspects of the tuning, so it's best if they're left intact.

  There are those who feel that "flies out" is the best way to go and I'm here to reiterate that it is not. A friend just purchased a 2010 with flies out, an area p slip on and a PCV... the bike has a momentary lag when the throttle is opened that the flash doesn't exhibit at all, and the sharpness to throttle input with the flies out just isn't like the flash provides. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Throttle 8 on November 23, 2015, 08:51:27 pm
Have you got on the dyno yet with the Area P slip on with and your flash? I am curious if it will be close 150hp. I just put on the Area P slip on before winter shut me down. If it comes in the way I think it might, Santa might have to bring me a reflashed ECU for Christmas.  ;D
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Racer Boy on November 23, 2015, 08:55:05 pm
I'm guessing just the slip on won't make nearly that kind of power (that would be an increase of around 20 HP), I think you need the Area P complete system to get that kind of power.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on November 23, 2015, 09:41:10 pm
I'm guessing just the slip on won't make nearly that kind of power (that would be an increase of around 20 HP), I think you need the Area P complete system to get that kind of power.

+1

A muffler swap will amount to very little.  Size, looks, sound, weight, not power.  Different story if you replace the exhaust system, though.  But that is some big coin (and without a PC, it would require a custom tailored ECU flash).
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Throttle 8 on November 23, 2015, 10:21:58 pm
From what I see on Steve's dyno chart, it looks like you gain almost 14 hp just from the flash on a stock bike. Area P shows a 6hp increase on there dyno chart for the slip on. My simple math says that should add up to 20 hp, but you never now how they will interact; thus my question to Steve ( he has said he was going to test this exact setup on a dyno). I believe there are guys on this board or the other with a full Area P, flash, and filter that are putting mid 160's hp to the wheel.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 24, 2015, 05:21:13 am
My bike currently has the areap slip on  mounted, and I've been trimming the fuel but haven't been to the dyno yet. Actually I have found a dyno I can purchase and I'm mulling it over... it's a good bit of coin, but I wouldn't have to rely on seting up dyno time anymore, so there is that.

   Anyways, it's hard to accurately predict what might happen when "this" part stacks on "that" part.

   To be honest, I was floored that my bike gained 14 hp with the stock exhaust. Floored to the point that we did several runs showing that gain, then I reflashed my stock map back in and got the 126-128 hp runs, then flashed the ECU back to my flash and back came the 142 hp.  So with that in mind it kind of threw off my idea of "reasonable expectations".

  I was back to the dyno with 2 other concours owners 3 weeks ago. One has a pipe I built with the stock pipe diameter header pipes with a 2 bros slip on. The other has a full area p system. The bike with the pipe I built had incredible low end torque even stronger than the area p system, but from 6000 up the area P system was considerably stronger. The bike with the small tube peaked at 146 and the AreaP bike peaked at 157. These are SAE corrected #, same as my 142 hp. 

   So with those #'s in mind, and IF the stock muffler is more of an impediment to power production than the pipe diameter or the CATS in the stock header  then I think it's possible for a flashed bike with a slip on to get to that mid 140's area... 145, 146, 147, right in there. If it doesn't get any more than the 142 I already have, then we're at the point of realizing the peak power with the stock header.

   So far with the slip on I can say the bike is fast. It was fast before, too. It's so linear it masks the rate at which it accelerates from low rpm so the butt dyno is less effective. I do feel a subtle climb in power at 5000 rpm that I didn't feel with the stock muffler. Subtle but  noticeable none the less. This could be a good sign. Still, I need dyno data, which I will probably have within a couple weeks, and then after that the area P full system goes on, though I doubt it will stay; I'm really liking  the quiet / fast and don't need to be alerting the men in blue that there's an ICBM tearing up the roads in their area of responsibility  :o :o 

   In closing I do want to say this - Guys put on slip ons almost as soon as they buy the bike. 4-500.00 $. Sure there are some weight savings, about 14 lbs, and probably some extra power to be gained, but it absolutely won't achieve the all rpm power gained with my flash. Not comparable. In my mind, putting on a slip on first and then mulling over getting the flash is a bit backwards, because the flash is the obvious bang for the buck winner in that contest. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on November 24, 2015, 05:43:46 am
In closing I do want to say this - Guys put on slip ons almost as soon as they buy the bike. 4-500.00 $. Sure there are some weight savings, about 14 lbs[...]In my mind, putting on a slip on first and then mulling over getting the flash is a bit backwards, because the flash is the obvious bang for the buck winner in that contest. Steve

Yep.  But lots of people are more concerned with the APPEARANCE of performance, rather than actual performance.  :)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on November 24, 2015, 06:18:08 am
Yep.  But lots of people are more concerned with the APPEARANCE of performance, rather than actual performance.  :)
fify
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: bob h on November 24, 2015, 07:03:28 am
Whereas the HD crowd is more concerned with the SOUND of performance, rather than actual performance!

"If it won't go, put loud pipes on it.  If it still won't go, chrome it."

We all have our weaknesses!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Racer Boy on November 24, 2015, 08:28:36 am
From what I see on Steve's dyno chart, it looks like you gain almost 14 hp just from the flash on a stock bike. Area P shows a 6hp increase on there dyno chart for the slip on. My simple math says that should add up to 20 hp, but you never now how they will interact; thus my question to Steve ( he has said he was going to test this exact setup on a dyno). I believe there are guys on this board or the other with a full Area P, flash, and filter that are putting mid 160's hp to the wheel.

My rule of thumb for dyno claims for slip-ons is to be very skeptical. Most bikes are only going to get a 2 or 3 HP increase from just the muffler.

Does Area P know a way to get more power than Yoshimura or Vance and Hines does? I doubt it, but it will be interesting to see what the numbers are when Steve tests that combo.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on November 24, 2015, 09:25:10 am
I just want to say, that I appreciate what Steve is doing for us and all the info that is coming out because of it.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Throttle 8 on November 24, 2015, 11:05:38 am
Thanks for the reply Steve. Well thought out and logical! It was exactly along my line of thinking. I agree with what everyone above has said about slip on's generally being just noisemakers. I put mine on mainly because the stock exhaust was so butt fugly. I wasn't looking for extra hp as I have a  lightly modded ZX12R that puts out 183 to the wheel for those need for speed days. When I started subscribing  to Steve's flash threads, and saw the hp gains he was getting for the money, I became extremely interested----(more hp is always a good thing!) LOL!
One other thing about the Area P slip on----I have had slip ons' on several other previous bikes over the years, and they all were just cosmetic. I swear this slip on breathes better once you are above 6000rpm (at least according to the feel of my butt dyno). I am subscribed to Steve's testing---I find it extremely interesting as it gives me something to do over a long cold winter up here in the Great White North.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on November 24, 2015, 02:57:31 pm
My rule of thumb for dyno claims for slip-ons is to be very skeptical. Most bikes are only going to get a 2 or 3 HP increase from just the muffler.

Yep.  If that.  And that would be *peak* hp gain (at highest RPM), where few ever roam.

Quote
Does Area P know a way to get more power than Yoshimura or Vance and Hines does? I doubt it, but it will be interesting to see what the numbers are when Steve tests that combo.

I am more inclined to believe a larger gain (than less than half of the claim) *if the ECU/PC were TUNED* for that exact slight change a particular muffler swap makes.  But few people ever do that.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on November 24, 2015, 02:58:21 pm
I just want to say, that I appreciate what Steve is doing for us and all the info that is coming out because of it.

+1

It is *GREAT* to have options!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Cold Streak on November 24, 2015, 03:28:18 pm
I had my ECU flashed by Steve and color me impressed.  While the additional power at the top end is nice, I really wanted it down lower in the rev range to be more useful in everyday driving.  Sometimes you get what you want and a lot more.  It now pulls a lot stronger from lower in the rpm range.  The bike doesn't have any dead spots off idle and seems to cruise easier. Not too scientific there, but if you get the upgrade you'll know what I mean.  Also, improved fuel economy!  What?  More power and less fuel?  Yup.  It seems the majority of the posts lately have been about how much top end power was available and I think that is missing the best parts of this upgrade.

I have a Muzzy slip on with everything else stock.  65k miles on a 2008.  I wanted the slip on because I wanted to hear the bike and because of aesthetics.   I found I had to control the exhaust popping noises on deceleration by cracking the throttle.  I also had to play with the throttle in other areas to make the engine behave properly.  That is no longer required.

 :chugbeer:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: connie14boy on November 24, 2015, 03:32:32 pm
My bike currently has the areap slip on  mounted, and I've been trimming the fuel but haven't been to the dyno yet. Actually I have found a dyno I can purchase and I'm mulling it over... it's a good bit of coin, but I wouldn't have to rely on seting up dyno time anymore, so there is that.

   Anyways, it's hard to accurately predict what might happen when "this" part stacks on "that" part.

   To be honest, I was floored that my bike gained 14 hp with the stock exhaust. Floored to the point that we did several runs showing that gain, then I reflashed my stock map back in and got the 126-128 hp runs, then flashed the ECU back to my flash and back came the 142 hp.  So with that in mind it kind of threw off my idea of "reasonable expectations".

  I was back to the dyno with 2 other concours owners 3 weeks ago. One has a pipe I built with the stock pipe diameter header pipes with a 2 bros slip on. The other has a full area p system. The bike with the pipe I built had incredible low end torque even stronger than the area p system, but from 6000 up the area P system was considerably stronger. The bike with the small tube peaked at 146 and the AreaP bike peaked at 157. These are SAE corrected #, same as my 142 hp. 

   So with those #'s in mind, and IF the stock muffler is more of an impediment to power production than the pipe diameter or the CATS in the stock header  then I think it's possible for a flashed bike with a slip on to get to that mid 140's area... 145, 146, 147, right in there. If it doesn't get any more than the 142 I already have, then we're at the point of realizing the peak power with the stock header.

   So far with the slip on I can say the bike is fast. It was fast before, too. It's so linear it masks the rate at which it accelerates from low rpm so the butt dyno is less effective. I do feel a subtle climb in power at 5000 rpm that I didn't feel with the stock muffler. Subtle but  noticeable none the less. This could be a good sign. Still, I need dyno data, which I will probably have within a couple weeks, and then after that the area P full system goes on, though I doubt it will stay; I'm really liking  the quiet / fast and don't need to be alerting the men in blue that there's an ICBM tearing up the roads in their area of responsibility  :o :o 

   In closing I do want to say this - Guys put on slip ons almost as soon as they buy the bike. 4-500.00 $. Sure there are some weight savings, about 14 lbs, and probably some extra power to be gained, but it absolutely won't achieve the all rpm power gained with my flash. Not comparable. In my mind, putting on a slip on first and then mulling over getting the flash is a bit backwards, because the flash is the obvious bang for the buck winner in that contest. Steve

SISF, thanks for all your scrutinizing and research for interested C14 riders- I'm sure it will pay off handsomely. The only aspect holding me back is the loss of engine braking in the sweepers and twisties. I have developed a riding style that I use extensively in the mountains that involves using 3rd gear and the rear (non-linked) ABS brake pedal to scrub off speed. With the PR4's it works great, and I would hate to lose any of that asset- just sayin', I would hope that the loss is minimal.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on November 24, 2015, 04:37:25 pm
The only aspect holding me back is the loss of engine braking in the sweepers and twisties. I have developed a riding style that I use extensively in the mountains that involves using 3rd gear and the rear (non-linked) ABS brake pedal to scrub off speed. With the PR4's it works great, and I would hate to lose any of that asset- just sayin', I would hope that the loss is minimal.

I don't see why closing the secondary butterflies sooner would cause there to be less engine braking available.  After all, the main butterflies will quite happily shut down engine air on their own.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: connie14boy on November 24, 2015, 06:04:08 pm
I don't see why closing the secondary butterflies sooner would cause there to be less engine braking available.  After all, the main butterflies will quite happily shut down engine air on their own.

Max, does this mean you didn't notice any loss of engine braking after your Guhl flash?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Daytona_Mike on November 24, 2015, 06:39:41 pm
I don't see why closing the secondary butterflies sooner would cause there to be less engine braking available.  After all, the main butterflies will quite happily shut down engine air on their own.
Maxdog,
You are correct.  You do not get 'LESS engine braking'.  It only feels like you do  because the stock flash slams shut the secondaries much 'sooner' and not gradually (and not controlled by YOU).
  You will get used to Steve's flash  right away and you will become  a much  smoother  and a better rider when you use your throttle to control the engine  braking which is the way it SHOULD BE.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: bob h on November 24, 2015, 07:53:52 pm
Can someone enlighten me as to why engine braking is lost with the flash?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on November 24, 2015, 11:42:08 pm
Max, does this mean you didn't notice any loss of engine braking after your Guhl flash?

Nope.  You do have to let off the throttle a little more than before, but the same amount of engine braking is still there.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on November 24, 2015, 11:47:08 pm
Can someone enlighten me as to why engine braking is lost with the flash?

It isn't lost, hence my posts :)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 25, 2015, 05:04:30 am
Engine braking isn't lost, but the perception of it does change a bit.

 In stock form, the throttle is very twitchy, and a small amount of rolling off the throttle leads to a pretty hard feeling of decelleration. This is because the secondaries restrict intake airflow, and they have more impact than the primary throttles in a throttle roll-off.

 Post flash, there is a considerable increase of lower rpm torque, and the natural reaction is to use it, primarily by riding at lower rpm in a higher gear. Couple that with no more throttle twitchiness on roll off, and the "feeling" is a loss of decelleration braking. As others have said, you will kind of "relearn" how to ride the bike. You don't have to manage the twitchy throttle, and the bike is easier to ride. After a few days everything is right in the c-14 world... and better than pre-flash. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: kzz1king on November 25, 2015, 05:18:10 am
This has been a fun read so far. I take delivery of a "new to me" 14 today. Hopefully I can ride it a bit today although there is snow in the forecast. I hope to ride it at least a little before sendin the ECU off to Steve!
Wayne
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on November 25, 2015, 05:40:40 am
This has been a fun read so far. I take delivery of a "new to me" 14 today. Hopefully I can ride it a bit today although there is snow in the forecast. I hope to ride it at least a little before sendin the ECU off to Steve!

Oh, you absolutely want to ride it quite a bit before having a Steve or Ghul ECU flash. Otherwise, you will have no appreciation for how nice the changes are.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 25, 2015, 05:54:37 am
Oh, you absolutely want to ride it quite a bit before having a Steve or Ghul ECU flash. Otherwise, you will have no appreciation for how nice the changes are.

 Agreed. I have a 2010 c-14 in the shop that a friend just purchased. He hasn't even ridden it, he had me do the test ride. It has the flies out, a power commander, and an area P slipon. It exhibits a flat spot / lag when the throttle is applied briskly. My flash has none of that. He wants me to put the flies back in and pull the PCV, but I told him he should ride it as delivered for a bit first - then he'd really appreciate what the flash does  :banana :banana  Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: connie14boy on November 25, 2015, 07:31:07 am
Engine braking isn't lost, but the perception of it does change a bit.

 In stock form, the throttle is very twitchy, and a small amount of rolling off the throttle leads to a pretty hard feeling of decelleration. This is because the secondaries restrict intake airflow, and they have more impact than the primary throttles in a throttle roll-off.

 Post flash, there is a considerable increase of lower rpm torque, and the natural reaction is to use it, primarily by riding at lower rpm in a higher gear. Couple that with no more throttle twitchiness on roll off, and the "feeling" is a loss of decelleration braking. As others have said, you will kind of "relearn" how to ride the bike. You don't have to manage the twitchy throttle, and the bike is easier to ride. After a few days everything is right in the c-14 world... and better than pre-flash. Steve

SISF, thanks for the explanation on engine braking. I've been a good Connie14boy this year, so I hope Santa brings me your ECU flash. :D
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: bob h on November 25, 2015, 07:36:37 am
Steve, thanks for the explaination, I like smooth much better!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: kzz1king on November 25, 2015, 09:28:52 am
The problem is that our riding season in North Dakota is over. It is too short to be sending the ecu away to be flashed even with a fast turn around.
Wayne


Agreed. I have a 2010 c-14 in the shop that a friend just purchased. He hasn't even ridden it, he had me do the test ride. It has the flies out, a power commander, and an area P slipon. It exhibits a flat spot / lag when the throttle is applied briskly. My flash has none of that. He wants me to put the flies back in and pull the PCV, but I told him he should ride it as delivered for a bit first - then he'd really appreciate what the flash does  :banana :banana  Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Throttle 8 on November 25, 2015, 11:39:36 am
I have one more question for Steve. I apologize if it has been asked already and I haven't seen it.
Does your flash lift the 155 mph limiter off of the 2010+ models? Not a real big deal, but artificial govenors have always bugged me.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Cold Streak on November 25, 2015, 01:11:01 pm
Quote
The problem is that our riding season in North Dakota is over. It is too short to be sending the ecu away to be flashed even with a fast turn around.
Wayne

Wouldn't now be the best time to do it, when you can't ride anyway?  I did mine when I couldn't ride for a week or so.  Then got to experience it for the last 3 weeks of the season in MN.  I was going to wait and have it done over the winter otherwise.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 25, 2015, 02:49:40 pm
I have one more question for Steve. I apologize if it has been asked already and I haven't seen it.
Does your flash lift the 155 mph limiter off of the 2010+ models? Not a real big deal, but artificial govenors have always bugged me.

 Yes I can, but it needs to be specifically requested. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: kzz1king on November 25, 2015, 03:17:49 pm
I agree, but as posted above I would not get to know how it feels stock.
Wayne


Wouldn't now be the best time to do it, when you can't ride anyway?  I did mine when I couldn't ride for a week or so.  Then got to experience it for the last 3 weeks of the season in MN.  I was going to wait and have it done over the winter otherwise.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: fartymarty on November 25, 2015, 11:48:33 pm
Oh, you absolutely want to ride it quite a bit before having a Steve or Ghul ECU flash. Otherwise, you will have no appreciation for how nice the changes are.

I can second this with a two thumbs up! :goodpost:

 I wish I had done so before the Guhl reflash I had done. I went riding after the reflash and was thinking about that story of the emperor's clothes. With all of the rave reviews at the time I didn't think it would be necessary to run rollon response tests before the reflash. I did some back to back roll-ons at the same place using eco mode and then Guhls reflash mode and yes the Guhl reflash did better but after reaching say 3500-3700 rpm not much if any difference on my seat of the pants dyno. I had no real sense that anything had been done to my ecu other than a sticker and an etched number. I'm going to hold off on getting this one a bit. I'm kinda worried that I might be one of those folks that Steve mentioned in another thread that don't notice anything (insensitive ass like my wife says), anyway if or when I get Steve's reflash of my Guhl reflash I'm going to be more interested in the roll off response (smooth baby smooth) than I am in the roll on response. Even I should be able to notice a controlled reduction of power as compared to the off switch I seem to have now.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on November 26, 2015, 05:59:15 am
I wish I had done so before the Guhl reflash I had done. I went riding after the reflash and was thinking about that story of the emperor's clothes. With all of the rave reviews at the time I didn't think it would be necessary to run rollon response tests before the reflash. I did some back to back roll-ons at the same place using eco mode and then Guhls reflash mode and yes the Guhl reflash did better but after reaching say 3500-3700 rpm not much if any difference on my seat of the pants dyno. I had no real sense that anything had been done to my ecu other than a sticker and an etched number. I'm going to hold off on getting this one a bit. I'm kinda worried that I might be one of those folks that Steve mentioned in another thread that don't notice anything (insensitive ass like my wife says),

We had a few such posts in previous/old threads, which most of us found absolutely fascinating (since I just can't imagine how one can't tell the difference, it is pretty dramatic).  Lots of theories, no clear answers.  Probably has to do with how it is being ridden, what the expectations are, and how observant one is.  To me, the changes are most noticeable at mid to high-but-not-WOT (spirited to very spirited) throttle at lower and mid RPM's.  People that tend to stay in the higher RPM's are not going to appreciate/notice the changes as much.

Quote
   anyway if or when I get Steve's reflash of my Guhl reflash I'm going to be more interested in the roll off response (smooth baby smooth) than I am in the roll on response. Even I should be able to notice a controlled reduction of power as compared to the off switch I seem to have now.

If the change from stock to Ghul is huge, the change from Ghul to Steve is going to be minor.  I am not saying Steve's isn't better, but Ghul got all the low-hanging fruit, and there was a lot of it.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 26, 2015, 07:25:01 am
Well, I have studied all the dyno charts, I have ridden guhl flashed bikes, and also flashed a bike that had a Guhl flash, and rode it pre-post my flash, I have the guhl flash maps from the bike I re-flashed, so I can explain some things.

 The things I'm going to state here are factual, I have the data, so not based on opinion.

 1)  Low rpm power, up to 5000 rpm, they are both going to be very close to each other at 100% throttle.

  2)  The Shoodaben flash is sharper to respond at light to part throttle, and there isn't even a hint of hesitation to throttle input.

 3) Peak power- Guhl gained 1.5HP over stock at peak HP. Shoodaben gained 14 hp. The dyno charts for both are available, see it for yourself.

 4) the Shoodaben flash is definitely going to get the nod for light throttle fuel economy.

  5) Our maps in some places are surprisingly similar but there are other maps I've done significant work on the Guhl left untouched.

 6) Guhl did this work 4 years ago. He blazed the trail, and hopefully has been rewarded for it. As I understand it sport touring isn't his niche, he's moved on and is really working with the zx 14r and h2's now. Not my thing. I wish him the best success with that, and respect that he was the first to offer c-14 owners an option to the somewhat lousy tuning the bike was saddled with.

 Steve

 

 
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on November 26, 2015, 08:04:19 am
I'll be sending mine to you in a few weeks...
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: kwakrider on November 26, 2015, 08:47:15 am
I'll be sending mine to you in a few weeks...

Good man, now...while the ECU is away, how about those...you know, those "things" in a box, on a shelf, in the garage? Any chance?  ;D
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on November 26, 2015, 09:20:35 am
They are aging like fine wine...
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on November 26, 2015, 09:23:23 pm
2)  The Shoodaben flash is sharper to respond at light to part throttle, and there isn't even a hint of hesitation to throttle input.

I can confirm that although the Ghul flash did wonders, there are a few places that have a little hesitation.  It is a LOT less than stock, but not perfect.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 27, 2015, 04:39:52 am
I can confirm that although the Ghul flash did wonders, there are a few places that have a little hesitation.  It is a LOT less than stock, but not perfect.

 And this is what I'm talking about - you simply cannot pick up on these issues with dyno tuning alone. there was a reason I mentioned the hesitations, it's because I've experienced them in the gulh mapping.

    The other part of that is that most folks don't understand tuning, so they don't know what is possible and not possible. There's no reason to accept flat spots or hesitations; I personally won't. OTOH most folks don't know what they're feeling or how to put it into words so that doesn't help when trying to diagnose a tuning issue. The other part of this is that everyone seems to think tuning is strictly a/f ratio, and that's just not the case. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: fartymarty on November 27, 2015, 01:40:42 pm
Couple/three/four questions Steve:

1. If I send my ECU in for a reflash from you, could you check my current Guhl flash against the one(s) you have on file to compare it before you reflash it? (with a follow up email on your findings, I just need to confirm that I'm an unfeeling ass derriere)

2. Assuming that for some reason I wanted the old engine braking "feel" (I don't know why, maybe I'm fatigued after a long day of riding and I just want to get to the hotel but I have a long winding mountainous downhill yet ahead of me) couldn't I simply switch to ECO mode to return to the same old engine braking?

3. The words "smooth" can mean different things for different folks, I'm looking to eliminate the "off" switch feeling I get when trying to simply throttle back a bit. Regardless of whether my insensitive derriere can feel it, that is one of the things you feel you've achieved with your reflash, correct?

4. Guhl used to say that for only the price of shipping they would reflash back to stock if the owner requested it. You too?..or no? (Why would anyone want that?...I don't know, maybe taking it in for warranty work and one doesn't want to have the flash on the bike to let the dealer get their knickers in a twist and deny coverage?)

Thanks Steve, for the time taken answering these questions.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 28, 2015, 07:43:17 am
  I'll imbed my answers in the Q's below




Couple/three/four questions Steve:

1. If I send my ECU in for a reflash from you, could you check my current Guhl flash against the one(s) you have on file to compare it before you reflash it? (with a follow up email on your findings, I just need to confirm that I'm an unfeeling ass derriere) .
   A) - If I hook up the ECU to do a flash, you will be charged for a flash. If you tell me to do a read / confirm before the flash, I can do that, if you decide you don't want me to flash it's still costing you the price of a flash. I can do the flash, read your previous map and do a compare and report the results but I'm offering a flashing service, not a search your ECU for someone elses flash service.

2. Assuming that for some reason I wanted the old engine braking "feel" (I don't know why, maybe I'm fatigued after a long day of riding and I just want to get to the hotel but I have a long winding mountainous downhill yet ahead of me) couldn't I simply switch to ECO mode to return to the same old engine braking?
  A)Yes, if you like twitchy throttle response.

3. The words "smooth" can mean different things for different folks, I'm looking to eliminate the "off" switch feeling I get when trying to simply throttle back a bit. Regardless of whether my insensitive derriere can feel it, that is one of the things you feel you've achieved with your reflash, correct?
   A) This is what I call twitchy. Snatchy. Like the throttle is either on or off, not modulated. Yes, the Shoodaben flash isn't like that, which is why so many folks report "smooth" as their first descriptive word about the Shoodaben flash.

4. Guhl used to say that for only the price of shipping they would reflash back to stock if the owner requested it. You too?..or no? (Why would anyone want that?...I don't know, maybe taking it in for warranty work and one doesn't want to have the flash on the bike to let the dealer get their knickers in a twist and deny coverage?)
  A)  Guhl charges about 57.00 more than I do. I think If someone wanted me to re-flash asking them to pay shipping and 50.00 service charge would be entirely fair. My reasoning is more to discourage folks from thinking they can get me to flash at their leisure forever on the initial charge... I've found that when folks have to come out of their own pockets they "think" about making the service provider jump through hoops a little bit more.

Thanks Steve, for the time taken answering these questions.
[/quote]

   On a personal note, your questions seem more slanted towards what you can do when you're not satisfied with the flash that what you will enjoy about improving your riding experience with the Shoodaben Flash.  I know that everyone here is "experienced" in life and we've all certainly had experiences that didn't meet our expectations, but I can tell you that there's not much more to be done through tuning to better the c-14's engine performance than the Shoodaben Flash. If a person isn't satisfied with this flash, they truly have unobtainable expectations. That sounds bold, but I'm very critical of my own work, moreso than any educated customer would be and I can tell you there's nothing more to be gained without getting up against unsafe tuning practices. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: kzz1king on November 28, 2015, 09:03:33 am
Maybe this is for another thread but does a flash pose any threat to voiding the warranty? Actually what mod can produce warranty issues?
Wayne
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on November 28, 2015, 11:20:42 am
Maybe this is for another thread but does a flash pose any threat to voiding the warranty? Actually what mod can produce warranty issues?

This has been discussed in the past.  There is no official word, that I know of.  Generally, a dealer is not going to know you had your ECU flashed, unless you tell them.  They have no tools to know it is any different (I don't believe our firmware is "signed" or checksumed.... but that is probably already being done in some vehicles now).  I don't recommend putting a sticker on it or anything like that, advertising it, however.

Generally, a dealer or factory cannot void your warranty for work and mods you do yourself, without provable cause.  They can (and sometimes do) claim that if you do not perform the recommended upkeep or use an aftermarket part, that it is not covered.  But my understanding of the law is that they would have to have proof that your actions or negligence CAUSED the problem.  They can't automatically just assume what the customer did is at fault.  Of course, that doesn't mean you won't go through lots of harassment, wasted time, and possibly even legal action in the process.

The reason there is significant performance improvements available with flashing is exactly because the engine is designed to meet regulations about noise, fuel economy, and emissions control (and the manufacturer also adds things like drivability and reliability, too).  Reflashing throws all that out the window, so it is quite illegal :)   But replacing the muffler with a third-party one is also illegal; as is adding HID bulbs, adding additional driving lamps, replacing a lens with a third-party, wearing earphones, using a too-darkly tinted visor, and driving over the speed limit.  I don't suppose anything would be very much fun if the dealer acted as a legality spy (other than during a state inspection, and those tend to be a joke).
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: fartymarty on November 28, 2015, 01:51:06 pm
   On a personal note, your questions seem more slanted towards what you can do when you're not satisfied with the flash that what you will enjoy about improving your riding experience with the Shoodaben Flash.

Sorry if I came across that way, didn't mean to do so. I know you are widely respected and I have no reason not to do the same.

 As for my question number one, I was just curious if I sent my ECU to you for a reflash if you could/would look to see what's on it before you flash and then send an email (or include a note in the return package) for a small additional charge. Like I said earlier, I was so unimpressed with the Guhl flash that I still wonder if maybe they stickered it and etched it but never flashed it (mistakes happen). Not wanting anything for free, nor will I call up Guhl and complain quoting you or any of that kind of pot stirring crap (what's done is done, whether it was done or not { sounds sorta like Yogi Berra  ???}). I won't quote you here or on any other forum, I just want to know for me.

The re-reflash fees (putting it back the way it was) are reasonable and in line with Guhl's total. I'm not planning on doing that but other's may wonder as well.

I'll probably request you flash mine in December. I'm really looking forward to the smooth, if I also get better mpg and a bit more power, it's nothing but extra gravy.  :)

 Thanks again for taking the time to answer.  :thumbs:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: dude412 on November 28, 2015, 02:34:12 pm
This has been discussed in the past.  There is no official word, that I know of.  Generally, a dealer is not going to know you had your ECU flashed, unless you tell them.  They have no tools to know it is any different (I don't believe our firmware is "signed" or checksumed.... but that is probably already being done in some vehicles now).  I don't recommend putting a sticker on it or anything like that, advertising it, however.

Generally, a dealer or factory cannot void your warranty for work and mods you do yourself, without provable cause.  They can (and sometimes do) claim that if you do not perform the recommended upkeep or use an aftermarket part, that it is not covered.  But my understanding of the law is that they would have to have proof that your actions or negligence CAUSED the problem.  They can't automatically just assume what the customer did is at fault.  Of course, that doesn't mean you won't go through lots of harassment, wasted time, and possibly even legal action in the process.

The reason there is significant performance improvements available with flashing is exactly because the engine is designed to meet regulations about noise, fuel economy, and emissions control (and the manufacturer also adds things like drivability and reliability, too).  Reflashing throws all that out the window, so it is quite illegal :)   But replacing the muffler with a third-party one is also illegal; as is adding HID bulbs, adding additional driving lamps, replacing a lens with a third-party, wearing earphones, using a too-darkly tinted visor, and driving over the speed limit.  I don't suppose anything would be very much fun if the dealer acted as a legality spy (other than during a state inspection, and those tend to be a joke).
First of all I'm not made of money but as good as Steve's flash is I'm not worried about the warranty. Just saying.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: sailor_chic on November 29, 2015, 04:54:18 am
Hey guys,

Yesterday I attended the COG RTE in Brooksville Fl. Great event, but that's not the purpose of my post. While having a conversation with Steve, he asked me if I wanted to test ride his bike. His question was also presented with his FOB in hand. After a micro-second, I decided that this would be beneficial to do so. After a brief discussion of the areas/aspects of the flash that I should pay attention to, including bring it up to red line, I was underway.

Initial impression was from a stop and was very noticeable. This has removed the sluggishness of the bike. This alone is almost worth the price of the flash.

The roll on power of the bike from 2000-3000 RPM was instantaneously and didnt decrease through the entire range of RPM's. After trying different gears and ranges of where I rolled on the throttle, I couldnt find any flaws. This bike simply pulls hard!!

Then I found a section of road that I could try this machine from a stop to a full throttle top end run. In first gear, I did short shift at 9000-9500 as a cautionary practice so I didnt go beyond red line. Then 2nd through 4th gear, were red line shifts and most of 5th gear  I was also still hard on the throttle. The power is AMAZING!! The mid-range and upper end of the RPM's pulled hard. There is not any area of the power band that is lacking and the bike feels like it just wants to keep going. It was effortless to reach the maximum power this fine machine has to offer.

While reading this thread over the past weeks, I have read so many good things about how well this flash helps wake up this machine, I am now even more of a believer. Very soon I will be making the ride to see him again and have my ECU flashed. Of course I have to get my bike running first. If your on the fence about doing this mod, I would say go for it!!

All this and added fuel economy, wow!

Disclaimer: This test ride was performed on a close course, by an unprofessional drive. No bike's were hurt while conducting this test
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on November 29, 2015, 06:53:40 am
 :thumbs:   Quite frankly I was a bit skeptical when Steve brought this to our attention........at first.   However with all the information flowing in and Steve's reputation with the C10, the skepticism has changed to enthusiasm.   I'm going to get my ECU out and send to him this week, hopefully.

Nicole, thanks so much for that report.  I'm sure that all who are interested in this regard it quite highly and thanks for being with us.  You've made an excellent addition to the C14 asylum.  When you take your bike and ECU to Steve, if he's wearing a long overcoat.........run away.

What I really appreciate from Steve is that he works with the Concours and has been doing that for many years.  And that goes for all of our vendors.  They spent a lot of time developing products for our bikes and probably won't get the money back that they put into it so let's support them.
 
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: sailor_chic on November 29, 2015, 11:30:56 am
Jim, thanks for your kind words. Buying my C14 has been a life changing experience for me. For the bike, the trips, and the great people that I have met so far. I am proud to be a part of and accepted in the C14 community.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 29, 2015, 12:21:50 pm
:thumbs:   Quite frankly I was a bit skeptical when Steve brought this to our attention........

Skeptics have always ended up as my best supporters... ask Teecro ;) ;)

  Oh, and Nicole isn't messing around... she took my bike faster than I ever have  :yikes: ! Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on November 29, 2015, 12:26:25 pm
 :rotflmao:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: sailor_chic on November 29, 2015, 03:49:19 pm
Skeptics have always ended up as my best supporters... ask Teecro ;) ;)

  Oh, and Nicole isn't messing around... she took my bike faster than I ever have  :yikes: ! Steve

You mentioned the data recorder. If you want to hook it up, I'll be more than happy to take your bike for a ride again.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on November 29, 2015, 04:34:31 pm
Make her put down a deposit on the bike, Steve.  She may not bring it back.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on November 29, 2015, 04:38:17 pm
:thumbs:   Quite frankly I was a bit skeptical when Steve brought this to our attention........at first.   However with all the information flowing in and Steve's reputation with the C10, the skepticism has changed to enthusiasm.   I'm going to get my ECU out and send to him this week, hopefully.

I see where I rank, Jim!  I have been singing the praises of ECU flashing for years now...    :battle:  ;)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: sailor_chic on November 29, 2015, 05:14:05 pm
I see where I rank, Jim!  I have been singing the praises of ECU flashing for years now...    :battle:  ;)

Finally someone is listening to me,  Thank-you Jim, Sorry Max!  :)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: sailor_chic on November 29, 2015, 05:16:25 pm
Make her put down a deposit on the bike, Steve.  She may not bring it back.
No kidding, his starts!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on November 29, 2015, 06:02:18 pm
I see where I rank, Jim!  I have been singing the praises of ECU flashing for years now...    :battle: ;)

 :rotflmao:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: rhhall on November 29, 2015, 09:37:16 pm
Go for it Jim. I did. You will be impressed.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on November 30, 2015, 04:36:54 am
Already have the seat off....
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Cold Streak on November 30, 2015, 05:10:32 am
You're halfway there ...
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 30, 2015, 05:54:48 am
You're halfway there ...

   No kidding, this kind of tuning is the easiest way to improve engine operation I've ever seen. 5 minutes removing and reinstalling the ECU, and 300.00. compare that to jetting with carbs... wow this is easy.  :thumbs: :thumbs:  Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: kzz1king on November 30, 2015, 12:57:00 pm
I have not even looked under the seat yet but does the battery need to be disconnected before removal?
Wayne


   No kidding, this kind of tuning is the easiest way to improve engine operation I've ever seen. 5 minutes removing and reinstalling the ECU, and 300.00. compare that to jetting with carbs... wow this is easy.  :thumbs: :thumbs:  Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on November 30, 2015, 01:29:44 pm
I think it would be wise to do so...
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on November 30, 2015, 01:44:24 pm
I think it would be wise to do so...

I agree.  I am pretty sure I did when I removed mine to send to Ghul.  Better safe than sorry- the ECU is expensive!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 30, 2015, 02:47:04 pm
I haven't pulled the battery, nobody yet has pulled the battery, no issues. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on November 30, 2015, 03:23:08 pm
I personally don't muck around with electronics on a vehicle/bike without disconnecting the battery.  Considering the cost of an ECU, it's cheap insurance.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Throttle 8 on December 02, 2015, 05:19:08 pm
I was at the dealership today to price out a Kawasaki Touring seat. While I was there I asked the sevice manager about their position if a customer "hypothetically" had an ecu flash done to his/her bike as far as warranty. He gave me a wink and said that they don't check for that, and that if he figured it could become a warranty sticky point with Kawasaki; a stock flash could be put back in. I am just waiting for Steve's dyno results with the Area P slip on and I think I will pull the trigger. (In January after all the Christmas parcels have cleared the system.) :chugbeer:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: bob h on December 02, 2015, 05:48:40 pm
In designing the ECU, it should have been very easy to protect the internal circuitry from trannsients on the leads. ;D

I'm guessing they did.  :thumbs:

(But just remember, this is the same organization that brought us the C10 junction box!) :loco: :rotflmao:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: mikeb2411 on December 04, 2015, 09:33:05 am
I personally don't muck around with electronics on a vehicle/bike without disconnecting the battery.  Considering the cost of an ECU, it's cheap insurance.

That's like completely removing your pants to take a leak  :rotflmao:...probably the "safest" way to do it but we don't :rotflmao:  :rotflmao:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Rhino on December 04, 2015, 09:53:57 am
That's like completely removing your pants to take a leak  :rotflmao:...probably the "safest" way to do it but we don't :rotflmao:  :rotflmao:

If the pants cost $700 and would be completely unusable with just a drop of urine on them and I only had to take a leak once in 5 years, yes I'd completely remove the pants before taking a leak.  ;)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: mikeb2411 on December 04, 2015, 09:57:07 am
If the pants cost $700 and would be completely unusable with just a drop of urine on them and I only had to take a leak once in 5 years, yes I'd completely remove the pants before taking a leak.  ;)

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: fartymarty on December 04, 2015, 12:20:56 pm
If the pants cost $700.......


Perhaps this could be discussed more.....(The lost ECU potential costs, not the wet pants.)

How much are you folks insuring your ECU for when you send it off?  Are you using those special anti-static discharge bags or just packing peanuts?

So lets pretend that the ECU is lost in shipment on the way to Steve. To recover, you'd need to get a matched pair of ECU and KIPASS boxes...right? ....or just an ECU?  Then the dealer would have to get all the additional on hand passive FOBs programmed and the TPMS sensors would need to be accessed (tires opened up to get the numbers for registration if you haven't got them on record) If we are talking new discounted prices and reasonable dealer service charges it's at least $900.00 right? (Ron Ayers wants $888.35 just for the ECU) Then if it was lost on the return from Steve it would be around a $1200 loss.

Are my number$ right?

I think I insured mine for $900.00 when I sent it to Guhl, but I have no idea how much insurance they purchased for the return trip.

Chances are extremely slim for a loss with all the bar coding and scanners, but accidents happen (http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/264c96739dba68e19ec13913bca2e182d1b47ed0/c=0-0-4110-3075&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/WTSP/USATODAY/2014/04/11//1397225685000-1397202927000-AP-California-Bus-Crash.jpg).
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: mikeb2411 on December 04, 2015, 12:22:34 pm
Perhaps this could be discussed more.....(The lost ECU potential costs, not the wet pants.)

How much are you folks insuring your ECU for when you send it off?  Are you using those special anti-static discharge bags or just packing peanuts?

So lets pretend that the ECU is lost in shipment on the way to Steve. To recover, you'd need to get a matched pair of ECU and KIPASS boxes...right? ....or just an ECU?  Then the dealer would have to get all the additional on hand passive FOBs programmed and the TPMS sensors would need to be accessed (tires opened up to get the numbers for registration if you haven't got them on record) If we are talking new discounted prices and reasonable dealer service charges it's at least $900.00 right? (Ron Ayers wants $888.35 just for the ECU) Then if it was lost on the return from Steve it would be around a $1200 loss.

Are my number$ right?

I think I insured mine for $900.00 when I sent it to Guhl, but I have no idea how much insurance they purchased for the return trip.

Chances are extremely slim for a loss with all the bar coding and scanners, but accidents happen ([url]http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/264c96739dba68e19ec13913bca2e182d1b47ed0/c=0-0-4110-3075&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/WTSP/USATODAY/2014/04/11//1397225685000-1397202927000-AP-California-Bus-Crash.jpg[/url]).


I want to say I insured mine for $1200.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on December 04, 2015, 03:27:15 pm
Perhaps this could be discussed more.....(The lost ECU potential costs, not the wet pants.) [...]

All very good points

Quote
How much are you folks insuring your ECU for when you send it off?  [...]I think I insured mine for $900.00 when I sent it to Guhl, but I have no idea how much insurance they purchased for the return trip.

When I sent it to Guhl, I think I picked $1000.  But that might not be enough... and, like you, I have no idea what it was insured for on the way back.  Some merchants don't bother with insurance because due to volume and high insurance pricing, it is cheaper for them to self-insure.  But hard to believe that model would work with this type of thing (low volume, high replacement cost).
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 04, 2015, 08:31:50 pm
I suggest 1200.00 insured coming in, and I insure for 1200.00 going out.

 Trust me, there's a significant way to mitigate the cost. if your ecu is lost, buy one from ebay, bring it to the dealer to be ID's with KDS, and you're golden. You'll have hundreds in your pocket. And yes, this system works, we have 2 bikes here with 2 ECU's that work on them, and I will pick up cheap ECU's here or there to have on hand just in case of a loss. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: fartymarty on December 04, 2015, 08:36:02 pm
I suggest 1200.00 insured coming in, and I insure for 1200.00 going out.

 Trust me, there's a significant way to mitigate the cost. if your ecu is lost, buy one from ebay, bring it to the dealer to be ID's with KDS, and you're golden. You'll have hundreds in your pocket. And yes, this system works, we have 2 bikes here with 2 ECU's that work on them, and I will pick up cheap ECU's here or there to have on hand just in case of a loss. Steve

Well cool! This is just getting easier and easier, thanks Steve.  :thumbs:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Conrad on December 06, 2015, 06:03:56 am
If the pants cost $700 and would be completely unusable with just a drop of urine on them and I only had to take a leak once in 5 years, yes I'd completely remove the pants before taking a leak.  ;)

 :rotflmao:

Chalk one up for Rhino!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Dan Forker on December 16, 2015, 04:10:29 pm

Sent my ECU off Monday to be flashed. Can't wait to find out if it smooths out the throttle as described. I'll report as soon as I can ride it. Weather in Kansas is not conducive to bike rides except on exceptional days. My ECU was already flashed by Guhl and I was happy with the result but wanted to get the throttle reaction tamed down.

Fork
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on December 16, 2015, 04:18:52 pm
Sent my ECU off Monday to be flashed. Can't wait to find out if it smooths out the throttle as described. I'll report as soon as I can ride it. Weather in Kansas is not conducive to bike rides except on exceptional days. My ECU was already flashed by Guhl and I was happy with the result but wanted to get the throttle reaction tamed down.

Neat.  Yours will be valuable feedback.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: connie_rider on December 16, 2015, 05:29:39 pm
I'll be watching for your report too.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 17, 2015, 06:00:57 pm
Here's a cut and paste just posted today on the COG about the Shoodaben Vs Guhl flash. Don't know the man, other than as a customer. This repost is with his permission. thanks Harvey - Steve


"Comparing Stock Flash Vs Don's Flash Vs Steve's Flash
Today at 07:49:59 am »
Hi Everyone,

I've been through some of the threads and I thought I'd help others who were in my position. What I felt lacked was a detailed review of all 3 ECU flashes. So I thought to share some of my findings with everyone. I won't write paragraphs upon paragraphs of feedback, but rather copy part of my own personal notes below for everyone to see. However, please keep in mind the following:

1. I do not know Don or Steve and have only spoken to each of them twice on the phone. Both times were strictly about he flash, what I currently have, what my expectations are and current bike configuration.
2. I do not receive any royalties from either of them for saying anything positive (or negative).
3. I do not belong to any organization/forum, nor do I have any association to any group that may or may nor benefit from my evaluation.
4. My evaluation was based on what was important to me and what I could perceive (everyone detects and perceives different things).
5. The following is my opinion and my opinion only. I welcome all questions/comments and will respond only to the ones that are respectful. I will not respond to accusations or derogatory comments.

Conditions:
1. Multiple rides (easy touring, hard accel/decel, mountain type riding, hard cornering, MSF testing) were performed with all 3 flashes (stock, Don, Steve) and evaluated.
2. Riding conditions, bike conditions, road and climate conditions were similar.
3. Bike used was 2013 Kawasaki Concours 14, stock form, no mods other than Muzzy Slip on exhaust.
4. Octane 91 was used on all rides.

Overall Assessment of Don vs Steve (please see table for details of rides and evaluation):
1. From 0-6000 rpms, Steve's flash superior from Don's by roughly 10-15% (again, this is my perception) based on throttle response.
2. From 6000-9000 rpm, Steve's flash is vastly superior over Don's. It is as improved over Don's as Don's is over the stock flash.
3. Fuel Efficiency: Steve's flash is far superior over Don's. Don did not work on the ECO mapping, Steve did. His flash is the equivalent of the ECO mapping in terms of fuel efficiency.
4. Engine braking (chopping or rolling off throttle): Steve's flash is almost identical to Don's but there are subtle differences (see table)

So if have the stock flash and are looking to upgrade, my assessment is to go with Steve's flash. It is superior and less expensive.

If you have Don's flash:
1.  Conservative riding: You will gain 10-15% better quality rides with the added benefit of using a lower octane (89), equivalent fuel efficiency as the ECO map and a smoother more responsive throttle. Does the cost of another $300 justify 10-15% gain? That's for you to decide.
2. Hard riding (6000 rpms or above): You will gain 100% in performance. Steve's flash is definitely the way to go.

From a professional and personal stand point, both Don and Steve were A+, all the way. What I was most impressed about was the packaging of the ECU from Steve. The ECU was bubble wrapped, placed in a box. Then the box was bubble wrapped and placed into another box. If Steve's conservatism and attention to packaging is that detailed, there should no doubt about his quality of work with his ECU.

His ECU flash is an excellent product and if you are looking for a major difference in performance/fuel efficiency without anything to do other than "plug n play", his flash is the way to go.

TABLE OF RESULTS: Please see attachment

Hope I have helped someone out there.
Take care,
- Harvey"

Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: T Cro ® on December 17, 2015, 07:30:15 pm
I was at the dealership today to price out a Kawasaki Touring seat. While I was there I asked the sevice manager about their position if a customer "hypothetically" had an ecu flash done to his/her bike as far as warranty. He gave me a wink and said that they don't check for that, and that if he figured it could become a warranty sticky point with Kawasaki; a stock flash could be put back in. I am just waiting for Steve's dyno results with the Area P slip on and I think I will pull the trigger. (In January after all the Christmas parcels have cleared the system.) :chugbeer:

Take this with a grain of salt.... It is highly unlikely that the dealer can even see that the ECM has been flashed, the factory yes but the dealer no.... I'm looking at getting the ECM in a Mercury 4-Stroke outboard flashed as in my case it can add 45 SAFE HP to my motor and as long as the factory never needs to see the ECM I'm told no dealer will ever be the wiser....
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: KevinRLi on December 17, 2015, 07:54:11 pm
Take this with a grain of salt.... It is highly unlikely that the dealer can even see that the ECM has been flashed, the factory yes but the dealer no.... I'm looking at getting the ECM in a Mercury 4-Stroke outboard flashed as in my case it can add 45 SAFE HP to my motor and as long as the factory never needs to see the ECM I'm told no dealer will ever be the wiser....


I was told by my dealer as long as I don't open the case as in engine case I won't void my warranty. Throwing a power commander on or flashing the ECU as per my dealer won't affect the warranty in any way. Considering I just had my bike in the shop for an oil leak and a broken tooth off 3rd gear with a flashed ECU I'll tend to believe him. Covered under warranty.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: T Cro ® on December 17, 2015, 08:00:42 pm

I was told by my dealer as long as I don't open the case as in engine case I won't void my warranty. Throwing a power commander on or flashing the ECU as per my dealer won't affect the warranty in any way. Considering I just had my bike in the shop for an oil leak and a broken tooth off 3rd gear with a flashed ECU I'll tend to believe him. Covered under warranty.

The way I understand the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is that the burden of proof is on the manf to prove that something you did caused the failure......
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 18, 2015, 05:48:17 am
So Harvey is not a member of COG and does not use the COG forum yet you got this off the COG forum?  Wondering about #3 unless I'm totally misreading what he said...  If he is a member of COG and their forum, I have no issues with that, but he probably should have left out #3 or at least modified it a bit. 
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 18, 2015, 07:17:26 am
So Harvey is not a member of COG and does not use the COG forum yet you got this off the COG forum?  Wondering about #3 unless I'm totally misreading what he said...  If he is a member of COG and their forum, I have no issues with that, but he probably should have left out #3 or at least modified it a bit.

   Non Cog members regularly use the COG forum, in fact most folks who use the forum aren't COG members.

  So here's the backstory. Harvey contacted me about doing a flash, just like anyone else. He lives in Canada, wanted overnight shipping, so there was some extra logistics to manage. He is also a friend of Murph's, as he told me they are Buds. Well, Murph, like many other folks also expressed some scepticism early on, which kind of caught me off guard because we know each other and I would have thought he would just believe me, but well, you know human nature. So now I know Murph is going to get a full report, and it was a really great chance for my flash to get a straight up comparison against Guhl's by a guy who knows how to articulate the differences.  I asked Harvey, before he got the ECU back, to please do a comparative evaluation for me, and share it with the forum, but also knowing Murph would hear it before even you or I.

   What you read is Harveys' own evaluation. Not only did he pay me full price, which is even worse for Canadians who are getting like 30% hit on the dollar, but he also paid for overnight airfare, as he said the weather was still good there and he had a ride schedules in early December. All Harvey got from me was exactly what y'all will get from me, a good flash.

   If you were to go to COG, and read the whole thread on "ECU flashes, a perception problem" you'ld see an interaction around page 5 I have with a guy who is like a stalker to me; he even goes so far as to accuse me of hacking peoples accounts and having other people post using his account... he's way out there. So now when other guys, including Harvey, are posting their evaluations of the flash they're all including some verbage that they aren't paid my me, or in my pocket, of somehow in an organization bent on extracting money on my behalf.

   Yes, alot of BS drama, but that's the internet. Not everyone who posts is in their right mind; we have all seen it one time or another. But Jim, eventually YOU will be posting your evaluation, and it will be good, like everyone else's... how will you feel if someone accuses you of being in cahoots with me somehow? Well, you and I know you're not, and those who know us know the truth. All Harvey was trying to do was reassure folks that he wasn't a shill, just an honest guy doing an honest evaluation, just like you will be.

  And finally, I WANT guys who know the difference to report evaluations on the forum. y'all will  believe each other quicker than you'll believe me. YOU will help the flash be a success, because word of mouth is the strongest form of advertisement. I want the flash publicly evaluated...  I worked hard to make it what it is, I welcome the public feedback and appreciate the effort guys like Harvey put into telling the rest of the c-14 about their experiences with my flash.  Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on December 18, 2015, 03:24:35 pm
And finally, I WANT guys who know the difference to report evaluations on the forum. y'all will  believe each other quicker than you'll believe me. YOU will help the flash be a success, because word of mouth is the strongest form of advertisement. I want the flash publicly evaluated...

+1  One of the best things about forums is the ability to share experiences (positive, negative, and neutral).  Never rely on just one word of mouth, and it is OK to be skeptical, but usually there will be an obvious consensus at some point.... especially when long-term people start to speak up.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: mikeb2411 on December 18, 2015, 03:38:42 pm
   Non Cog members regularly use the COG forum, in fact most folks who use the forum aren't COG members.

  So here's the backstory. Harvey contacted me about doing a flash, just like anyone else. He lives in Canada, wanted overnight shipping, so there was some extra logistics to manage. He is also a friend of Murph's, as he told me they are Buds. Well, Murph, like many other folks also expressed some scepticism early on, which kind of caught me off guard because we know each other and I would have thought he would just believe me, but well, you know human nature. So now I know Murph is going to get a full report, and it was a really great chance for my flash to get a straight up comparison against Guhl's by a guy who knows how to articulate the differences.  I asked Harvey, before he got the ECU back, to please do a comparative evaluation for me, and share it with the forum, but also knowing Murph would hear it before even you or I.

   What you read is Harveys' own evaluation. Not only did he pay me full price, which is even worse for Canadians who are getting like 30% hit on the dollar, but he also paid for overnight airfare, as he said the weather was still good there and he had a ride schedules in early December. All Harvey got from me was exactly what y'all will get from me, a good flash.

   If you were to go to COG, and read the whole thread on "ECU flashes, a perception problem" you'ld see an interaction around page 5 I have with a guy who is like a stalker to me; he even goes so far as to accuse me of hacking peoples accounts and having other people post using his account... he's way out there. So now when other guys, including Harvey, are posting their evaluations of the flash they're all including some verbage that they aren't paid my me, or in my pocket, of somehow in an organization bent on extracting money on my behalf.

   Yes, alot of BS drama, but that's the internet. Not everyone who posts is in their right mind; we have all seen it one time or another. But Jim, eventually YOU will be posting your evaluation, and it will be good, like everyone else's... how will you feel if someone accuses you of being in cahoots with me somehow? Well, you and I know you're not, and those who know us know the truth. All Harvey was trying to do was reassure folks that he wasn't a shill, just an honest guy doing an honest evaluation, just like you will be.

  And finally, I WANT guys who know the difference to report evaluations on the forum. y'all will  believe each other quicker than you'll believe me. YOU will help the flash be a success, because word of mouth is the strongest form of advertisement. I want the flash publicly evaluated...  I worked hard to make it what it is, I welcome the public feedback and appreciate the effort guys like Harvey put into telling the rest of the c-14 about their experiences with my flash.  Steve

I tell EVERYONE I can about it! I still feel it's the best thing I could have done to my bike...best $300 I could have EVER spent (better not say that too loud...she might be listening :-X)!

Mike
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on December 18, 2015, 03:46:08 pm
 :rotflmao: she only cost $300?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: mikeb2411 on December 18, 2015, 03:47:16 pm
:rotflmao: she only cost $300?

What can I say, I'm a "bargain" shopper ::)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: connie14boy on December 18, 2015, 11:14:26 pm
I tell EVERYONE I can about it! I still feel it's the best thing I could have done to my bike...best $300 I could have EVER spent (better not say that too loud...she might be listening :-X)!

Mike

P/W'ed again..
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: mikeb2411 on December 19, 2015, 12:00:00 am
P/W'ed again..

Some things never change!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 28, 2015, 01:45:13 pm
Well, I have it installed and went on a short ride this past Sunday.  It wasn't off to a good start however (pun intended).  Came up with an F1 error immediately.  Never saw this on the bike before.  Had a few heart palpitations with that one.  Talked to Steve and that does happen on occasion so no worries.  Turned it off and back on again, this time no error however it ran a bit lumpy.  Revved it a bit and the fast idle jumped higher than normal.  Well alrighty then...  Turned it back off and back on and it seemed normal.   As it was pouring outside, that's as far as I got.

Sunday weather was quite beautiful.  Backed it out of the garage and proceeded to crank it.  Sounded normal at first and then went very lumpy and cut off.  Oh my, that's never happened before.  Tried to crank it back up and it sounded very very weak.   Voltage was only showing 12 on the display.  Strong language prevailed and I willed it to start up again.  It smoothed out and showed about 14.3v on the display finally.  Idle was a little lower than it should be.

Got on and took it out on the highway.  It pulled nicely from the traffic light on for about a quarter mile before I backed off the throttle.  Cops around here take a dim view of light speed in a 55 and this bike can achieve it in short order even carrying my svelte frame.  I'm well pleased with that performance.  Seems 'stronger' than it was before the flash.   I only had time to go on my short 'circuit'.  Went around one sharp right hander that I usually take in fourth but took in fifth...just to see.   Went well, actually.  I was able to accelerate through the turn very nicely.  The rest was somewhat sedate and not a good test of the flash.  I really want to try it through the mountains west of here.  I also want to try it with my wife on the bike as well.  That will be the true test for me.  I'm hoping to have some time later this week for a better 'test'.

Starting issues....has nothing to do with the flash.  I disconnected the battery while I removed the ECU, waiting for the ECU, installing the ECU.  I believe the battery gave me a warning to get it replaced.  It's 5.5 years old.  Time for a new one I think.  AGM MBTX12U MOTOBATT (ordered).  I also attribute the initial lumpiness to the low battery.

Idle....I have to adjust that up about 100 rpm or so.  Will do that this week as I have to remove the left side of the bike to get to it.

I'll update this further when I complete the road trials.  Oh, nearly forgot.  I have the enhanced decel with this flash.  Truthfully the bike performed normally as far as I could detect on deceleration.  So adding that in to the flash made the bike appear normal to me.  Again, I think the mountain riding will tell the tale.  As far as snatchiness, I detected none.  But I had none to begin with. 

This is an early 08, bought in 07.  It wasn't neutered by the 10+ improvements.  So far I'm happy and can't wait to give it a workout in the mountains.  I'll keep you informed. 

By the way, working with Steve was spot on.  He truly is one of us.  He has the rapport with the C10 crowd and he's doing a bang up job with us as well.  :thumbs:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on December 28, 2015, 02:01:16 pm

(Idle....I have to adjust that up about 100 rpm or so.  Will do that this week as I have to remove the left side of the bike to get to it.)


Why do you have to remove the left side?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: jscon2011 on December 28, 2015, 02:32:01 pm
**This is a review of the flash for those of us who dwell at elevation**

Did you purchase your bike close to sea-level? Did you move to Denver or somewhere else upstairs? Are you sad inside because you lost a lot of HP with the thin air? Do you think about buying a Yamaha? Or do you just want a gooder bike? Then look no further, this flash is for you!

I myself had forgotten what it felt like to need to actually /hold on/ while accelerating; the Connie at 5280' just wasn't as exciting as it was down where oxygen abounds...but this Flash helped recoup a good bit of that long-lost power. I'll admit that I only tested it out for 70 miles and that I had a +1 (bike went in hibernation there after), but even with another human on the back, I could feel the difference. I can't say much about the fuel economy at this time but, at slow speeds and off the line, there were noticeable improvements.

Sorry it took me so long to get this posted Flo-rida.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 28, 2015, 02:41:04 pm
(Idle....I have to adjust that up about 100 rpm or so.  Will do that this week as I have to remove the left side of the bike to get to it.)


Why do you have to remove the left side?

I've got those foam inserts in there and can't get to the adjusting knobby easily.  I haven't touched that knob (easy boys) since I bought the bike.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 28, 2015, 02:53:28 pm
I've got those foam inserts in there and can't get to the adjusting knobby easily.  I haven't touched that knob (easy boys) since I bought the bike.

  Have you replaced the battery yet? This idle issue isn't something I' ve experienced or had reported to me with the flash. Otherwise, we'll see how the rest of the rides go. This still reinforces to me that the 8-9's are smoother / stronger than the 10 up, my 9 just didn't have that flatness my 12 does, even though I don't see any appreciable differences across the maps. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 28, 2015, 03:18:31 pm
Battery is on the way.  Should be here by Friday.  These bikes are a tad touchy about battery health.  It doesn't take much of a lower voltage to affect things.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on December 28, 2015, 04:31:04 pm
Battery is on the way.  Should be here by Friday.  These bikes are a tad touchy about battery health.  It doesn't take much of a lower voltage to affect things.

Tad is an understatement.  The C14 seems to just throw a hissy fit of just about every strange symptom known to man when the voltage isn't always perfect.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on December 28, 2015, 04:55:11 pm
I've got those foam inserts in there and can't get to the adjusting knobby easily.  I haven't touched that knob (easy boys) since I bought the bike.
I left the left side insert out.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Throttle 8 on December 28, 2015, 05:35:01 pm
Tad is an understatement.  The C14 seems to just throw a hissy fit of just about every strange symptom known to man when the voltage isn't always perfect.

Battery Tender Jr! I have one for every bike and toy. I find it doubles the life of the battery.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on December 28, 2015, 05:37:52 pm
Battery Tender Jr! I have one for every bike and toy. I find it doubles the life of the battery.

Agreed, but now my Battery Tender Jr has failed and needed replacement after just 3 years.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: stevewfl on December 29, 2015, 08:36:56 pm
FOLKS.....    you WANT this flash!!!!!   ;D
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: mikeb2411 on December 30, 2015, 04:04:09 pm
FOLKS.....    you WANT this flash!!!!!   ;D

+1 +1 +1 +1 +1!!!!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 05, 2016, 08:01:29 am
Went on a short (100 mile) ride around the Northern Neck of VA with the wife and it feels much better with the additional loading than it did previously.  Quite happy so far.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on January 05, 2016, 12:21:32 pm
Went on a short (100 mile) ride around the Northern Neck of VA with the wife and it feels much better with the additional loading than it did previously.  Quite happy so far.

  Jim, I have a couple questions... how are you liking the throttle transitions? Is it smooth as you change throttle positions and less abrupt as compared to stock? And have you explored the deceleration? Not that it's more than stock, but do you feel it coming on smoother and more controlled? Have you explored controlling speed up / down with throttle, is it easier to control your speed now? Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 05, 2016, 01:31:04 pm
Throttle transitions were smooth as they were before the flash.  I never noticed any abruptness before, nor afterwards.  Deceleration feels the same as it was before.  I didn't have any issues with controlling the speed of the bike (before or after), although it always wants to go faster.  It basically just felt more powerful.  What I would like to do is ride a gen2 (stock) and compare how good my bike is to theirs. ;)   The only real issue I had was the idle speed dropped.   Hard to estimate how much, but I'm thinking about 200rpm or less.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on January 05, 2016, 03:29:10 pm
Maybe you do need to ride a 10 up, I'm honestly amazed that you can't tell a difference in smoothness, it's what everyone else notes right off, even the guys with the early models. and losing a couple hundred idle rpm... first time I've heard that, and I have around 50 or more units running right now.  Interesting. I can tell you that the cold really affects the economy of the bike, I rode in some 45 degree weather and the mileage was horenedous, I watch the mileage increase steadily as the ambient temps came up into the mid 60's. This has nothing to do with the flash, just the inefficiency of the bike when it's cold. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Rhino on January 05, 2016, 04:27:48 pm
Maybe you do need to ride a 10 up, I'm honestly amazed that you can't tell a difference in smoothness, it's what everyone else notes right off, even the guys with the early models. and losing a couple hundred idle rpm... first time I've heard that, and I have around 50 or more units running right now.  Interesting. I can tell you that the cold really affects the economy of the bike, I rode in some 45 degree weather and the mileage was horenedous, I watch the mileage increase steadily as the ambient temps came up into the mid 60's. This has nothing to do with the flash, just the inefficiency of the bike when it's cold. Steve

But when id you ride in cold weather?  ;D
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on January 05, 2016, 07:47:11 pm
Are you kidding me? this is Florida - I'm used to 98* and 150% humidity. 45 bees COLD!  ::) ::)  Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 06, 2016, 03:38:05 am
It was running in the low 50's during my ride on Sunday here.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Conrad on January 06, 2016, 04:47:59 am
Throttle transitions were smooth as they were before the flash.  I never noticed any abruptness before, nor afterwards.  Deceleration feels the same as it was before.  I didn't have any issues with controlling the speed of the bike (before or after), although it always wants to go faster.  It basically just felt more powerful.  What I would like to do is ride a gen2 (stock) and compare how good my bike is to theirs. ;)   The only real issue I had was the idle speed dropped.   Hard to estimate how much, but I'm thinking about 200rpm or less.

Do you have a Throttle Tamer installed? 
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 06, 2016, 07:43:06 am
Yep, but I only got it because everyone else was getting it.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: sanmo on January 06, 2016, 08:24:29 am
I left the left side insert out.

Unrelated to the important discussion on flashing, I'm totally distracted by the possibility that Mr. Pink's left-side lower extremity is more heat resistant than the right.  :)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Conrad on January 06, 2016, 08:28:00 am
Yep, but I only got it because everyone else was getting it.


So then, if everyone else was jumping off of a cliff...

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF_E10e4Bzo#)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on January 06, 2016, 09:01:05 am
Unrelated to the important discussion on flashing, I'm totally distracted by the possibility that Mr. Pink's left-side lower extremity is more heat resistant than the right.  :)
Used to be a pirate....
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on January 06, 2016, 10:01:35 am
The right side has more heat because of the exhaust, and the cats act as a heat sink. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 06, 2016, 10:22:43 am
So then, if everyone else was jumping off of a cliff...

! No longer available ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF_E10e4Bzo#[/url])


Yes

The right side has more heat because of the exhaust, and the cats act as a heat sink. Steve


Correct
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on January 06, 2016, 10:43:41 am
I found more heat was pushed up around the tank with both inserts in. Left one out is a reasonable compromise.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: sanmo on January 06, 2016, 11:09:23 am
The right side has more heat because of the exhaust, and the cats act as a heat sink. Steve

Let's leave logic and rationality out of this. I prefer Mr. Pink staggering around singing "yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum".  ;D
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 06, 2016, 11:22:16 am
I found more heat was pushed up around the tank with both inserts in. Left one out is a reasonable compromise.

That's actually not a bad idea.  I may try that.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: fartymarty on January 06, 2016, 03:01:56 pm
...staggering around singing "yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum".  ;D

That's actually not a bad idea.  I may try that.

Me too.   ;D

(Oops, sorry Steve, slight thread hijack.)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on January 06, 2016, 03:24:47 pm
[throttle tamer] Yep, but I only got it because everyone else was getting it.

The Throttle Tamer is very effective at greatly reducing so-called "throttle snatch".   Since the secondary butterflies can limit airflow, it is theoretically possible to simulate what the Throttle Tamer does mechanically but in the ECU.  However, if ECU changes do that AND one already has a Throttle Tamer, then the effect would be to double the taming, which might not be desired...
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 06, 2016, 03:56:51 pm
I noticed no detrimental effects.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on January 06, 2016, 06:27:27 pm
I noticed no detrimental effects.

  How would you know the difference?

  I'm starting to figure some stuff out here. I'm glad someone pointed out that you have a throttle tamer. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PeteTN_zgtr on January 06, 2016, 08:46:01 pm
Throttle transitions were smooth as they were before the flash.  I never noticed any abruptness before, nor afterwards.  Deceleration feels the same as it was before.  I didn't have any issues with controlling the speed of the bike (before or after), although it always wants to go faster.  It basically just felt more powerful.  What I would like to do is ride a gen2 (stock) and compare how good my bike is to theirs. ;)   The only real issue I had was the idle speed dropped.   Hard to estimate how much, but I'm thinking about 200rpm or less.

I wouldn't ever say this about my 08. Mine's always been abrupt. One of the things that bothered me about it coming from a carbed bike. A throttle tamer helped but is a Band-Aid fix. I've learned to make smoother transitions but it takes more concentration which lessens enjoyment. It would be interesting to know if Jim's bike had a different stock tune.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on January 06, 2016, 09:35:09 pm
I wouldn't ever say this about my 08. Mine's always been abrupt. One of the things that bothered me about it coming from a carbed bike. A throttle tamer helped but is a Band-Aid fix. I've learned to make smoother transitions but it takes more concentration which lessens enjoyment.

Exactly my experience, even though a 2nd gen.  I came from other bikes, the last being a carbed ZRX-11.  I found the Concours throttle extremely difficult to control- the throttle was an on/off switch in comparison.  Anything in first gear that required subtilty was very difficult- launching, upshifting, slow cornering, etc.   More than once I could have lost her due to lack of throttle finesse.   In 2nd it was better but still an issue.  3+ and it didn't matter much.   Even after two years it was still annoying.  Too little motion = too much gas.

However, in my case,  when I finally put the Throttle Tamer on, it solved about 80% of the issue.  Combined with 2.5 years of practice, it was really no issue any more.  The control was much easier and more predictable.  I am amazed when I come across riders who don't seem to have any issue with the stock throttle setup.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: connie14boy on January 06, 2016, 10:36:55 pm
The Throttle Tamer is very effective at greatly reducing so-called "throttle snatch".   Since the secondary butterflies can limit airflow, it is theoretically possible to simulate what the Throttle Tamer does mechanically but in the ECU.  However, if ECU changes do that AND one already has a Throttle Tamer, then the effect would be to double the taming, which might not be desired...

I've heard some talk about this here "throttle snatch" and hoped it was as good as it sounds. Yeehaw.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on January 06, 2016, 11:02:53 pm
I wouldn't ever say this about my 08. Mine's always been abrupt. One of the things that bothered me about it coming from a carbed bike. A throttle tamer helped but is a Band-Aid fix. I've learned to make smoother transitions but it takes more concentration which lessens enjoyment. It would be interesting to know if Jim's bike had a different stock tune.

  There really isn't a different stock tune. the ECU's have different PN's and there are differences between them but the differences are subtle. there are no differences between ECU's with the same pn's, there is no ECU that's tuned uniquely to a particular bike from the factory.

   Last week I flashed a bike, in my shop, for a member of this forum. He was the perfect guy for it too...long time rider, former Moto racer, and currently he raced cars with EFI so he knows the ins and outs of EFI tuning. I'm hoping he posts up here, but from what he told me he knew in the first 300 feet out of my driveway that there was a considerable change in the way the engine ran.

  I have to say that Jim isn't seeming anywhere near as enthusiastic as virtually everybody else has been. Maybe he has a particularly good c-14, I don't know. My suspicions are that  the throttle tamer is helping him and he doesn't really remember "stock" and  that he's probably a more sedate rider than many c-14 riders. I don't know any of this as fact, but it stands to reason that someone who is an easy rider isn't going to be confronted with the extra torque and horsepower that comes with those big throttle openings.

  Another issue  that came come up, though I don't think this is Jim's situation, is the person that has unrealistic expectations. Tuning isn't like doubling the displacement, it's just optimizing what you already have. Some folks think it's like adding cylinders, and it just isn't. These would be folks who are going to be disappointed because of unrealistic expectations. Again, I don't think this is Jim's case at all, I more suspect he's just an easier rider so the differences aren't as noticeable to him.

  So Jim... is that accurate? Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 07, 2016, 05:17:31 am
Depends on the situation, Steve.  Both rides I've done since the flash are more on the sedate side simply because of circumstances.  The first was just a 'test' circuit I go on with very few twisties.  The second was with my wife through another circuit I regularly travel.  It has many more twisties but with the wife on board it's not like I can go hog wild without severe repercussions.  With that being said, I can tell the difference in how the bike is reacting with the additional load.  It is more responsive.  It's not  :banana , though, but then I haven't been able to get to the mountains to really open it up on the twisties in the higher RPM range.  I don't think that is going to happen until the spring.  It's cold here now and while I do ride in the cold, I don't do it as much as in warmer weather.  I do ride with a group from MD at times that would enable a really good test and one of the guys there has a gen2 bike that I would like to trade places with.  They are a very spirited bunch.  They typically have Spring and Fall rides.  I rode behind the Gen 2 last spring and kept up easily with him (he is more spirited than I am, though) whilst a host of lesser bikes (BMWs and their ilk) kept behind us.

As far as 'normal' riding goes, which is typically Interstate these days, I don't push it and I'm typically in OD.  I'm glad I got the flash done (don't regret it one bit) and look forward to really giving it a workout as soon as I can.  As far as the throttle tamer goes, I did mention that on the phone with you.  You just may have forgot. 
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: mikeb2411 on January 07, 2016, 08:56:24 am
Depends on the situation, Steve.  Both rides I've done since the flash are more on the sedate side simply because of circumstances.  The first was just a 'test' circuit I go on with very few twisties.  The second was with my wife through another circuit I regularly travel.  It has many more twisties but with the wife on board it's not like I can go hog wild without severe repercussions.  With that being said, I can tell the difference in how the bike is reacting with the additional load.  It is more responsive.  It's not  :banana , though, but then I haven't been able to get to the mountains to really open it up on the twisties in the higher RPM range.  I don't think that is going to happen until the spring.  It's cold here now and while I do ride in the cold, I don't do it as much as in warmer weather.  I do ride with a group from MD at times that would enable a really good test and one of the guys there has a gen2 bike that I would like to trade places with.  They are a very spirited bunch.  They typically have Spring and Fall rides.  I rode behind the Gen 2 last spring and kept up easily with him (he is more spirited than I am, though) whilst a host of lesser bikes (BMWs and their ilk) kept behind us.

As far as 'normal' riding goes, which is typically Interstate these days, I don't push it and I'm typically in OD.  I'm glad I got the flash done (don't regret it one bit) and look forward to really giving it a workout as soon as I can.  As far as the throttle tamer goes, I did mention that on the phone with you.  You just may have forgot.

Jim, just twist the throttle and twist it hard (the throttle on the bike guys...just the throttle)...that's all you have to do and the rest will take care of itself. I ride a lot of Highway miles and even in OD my bike is much better than stock! I can turn the throttle at 80MPH and be at 120 in what seems like an instant (a little exaggeration but it is much more responsive than stock) I will say that I was somewhat disappointed with the bike when it was stock simply because I expected more from the Concours. The way people explained it prior to my buying one sounded as if I would have this "untamed rocket" under me and had to be really careful with it. We all know you have to be really careful on any bike but the Concours wasn't what I was expecting. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy riding it and have enjoyed it since buying it but the power that I though was going to be there, wasn't. Steve fixed that and now the bike is FANTASTIC! The only thing I've noticed is the fuel economy...kind of hit-and-miss. Some tanks I get 250+ and others I get 220 at most and I am pretty consistent in my riding style...weird but I still love it! STILL LONVIN' IT STEVE!!!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 07, 2016, 09:29:10 am
I don't have any issues with the power this bike has.  I came from a C10...  What I like especially is the ability to ramp up the power quickly depending on the situation.  I'm very familiar with the power curves it has.  I've never been on a bike that when pushed seems it's going faster than the rider sitting on it.  Very weird, feeling the bike going forward and me being pushed back.  So I know all too well what this bike can do.  But that's the beauty of it.   When I need that kind of power and corner holding, it doesn't disappoint.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: mikeb2411 on January 07, 2016, 09:39:53 am
I don't have any issues with the power this bike has.  I came from a C10...  What I like especially is the ability to ramp up the power quickly depending on the situation.  I'm very familiar with the power curves it has.  I've never been on a bike that when pushed seems it's going faster than the rider sitting on it.  Very weird, feeling the bike going forward and me being pushed back.  So I know all too well what this bike can do.  But that's the beauty of it.   When I need that kind of power and corner holding, it doesn't disappoint.

Saturday I was riding/training with my police buddies and one of them is on a brand new 2015 RT with 600 miles on it. We switched bikes. I thought his ran "rough" and didn't feel anywhere as smooth as mine (ours). Then there's the power...again, all I've heard is how the new RT has so much more HP and torque that the previous model and maybe it does but when you ride the new RT and my 2012 C14 you know which bike has it and which one doesn't! Let's just say he wanted to paint mine "black and white" and keep it ;D! He couldn't get over how much faster my bike was than his AND he liked how smooth it was. Excuse this next comment but that RT literally had my nuts rattling in my pants! The ONLY thing better on his bike was front end protection, talking about the windscreen and cockpit. It was better and I liked that because much less wind noise. Why is the Concours so difficult to figure out when it comes to the front end and the wind protection it offers? Maybe I'm expecting TOO much when it comes to that but the RT's protection and lack of noise was better in its stock form than mine with an aftermarket screen.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on January 07, 2016, 09:50:15 am
Why is the Concours so difficult to figure out when it comes to the front end and the wind protection it offers? Maybe I'm expecting TOO much when it comes to that but the RT's protection and lack of noise was better in its stock form than mine with an aftermarket screen.

  Kawasaki has btdt, it's what we know as the c-10. Best weather protection imaginable, but that frontal area came at the expense of top speed and top speed stability. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: mikeb2411 on January 07, 2016, 09:53:11 am
  Kawasaki has btdt, it's what we know as the c-10. Best weather protection imaginable, but that frontal area came at the expense of top speed and top speed stability. Steve

btdt??? So, is it common for us Concours riders to have increased wind noise because the bike is built to go fast and not necessarily to be "quiet"...is that a fair assumption. If that's the case I can put the chase for a quiet cockpit to rest and happily live with what I have knowing the bike is made that way for a reason!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on January 07, 2016, 11:37:41 am
btdt??? So, is it common for us Concours riders to have increased wind noise because the bike is built to go fast and not necessarily to be "quiet"...is that a fair assumption. If that's the case I can put the chase for a quiet cockpit to rest and happily live with what I have knowing the bike is made that way for a reason!

 Yes, this is really a supersport / tourer. so it's not a full zx14, nor is it a goldwing. it's somewhere in the middle, but in this case more heavily biased towards the sport side. You're not going to get the wind / weather protection, even with a tall shield, that the c-10 had. Of course the c-10 was done at about 125mph. On this bike you're just clicking into 4 gear. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: mikeb2411 on January 07, 2016, 11:56:47 am
Yes, this is really a supersport / tourer. so it's not a full zx14, nor is it a goldwing. it's somewhere in the middle, but in this case more heavily biased towards the sport side. You're not going to get the wind / weather protection, even with a tall shield, that the c-10 had. Of course the c-10 was done at about 125mph. On this bike you're just clicking into 4 gear. Steve

Thanks Steve, I appreciate finally being told what I should expect from the bike. I have been through many windscreens trying to find that "quiet place" thinking that something was wrong with ME because I couldn't find it! Knowing that the bike is setup as you have described makes me happy now and I can quit the search. I can keep the MRA on the bike and be happy with it! I can tell you that I will be sacrificing "quiet" for "power" for a long time because nothing else out there makes me feel as good as the Concours does while riding!

Let me ask you one more thing...I am going to be buying a new one at the end of the year or early 2017 depending on what Kawi does with the 2017 model. I'll know more after IMS in November but whether I buy a 2016 or 2017 do you think it will be something you will be able to flash? The flash is too good not to have so I will definitely make that a priority of things to do to the new bike.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on January 07, 2016, 03:06:59 pm
Thanks Steve, I appreciate finally being told what I should expect from the bike. I have been through many windscreens trying to find that "quiet place" thinking that something was wrong with ME because I couldn't find it! Knowing that the bike is setup as you have described makes me happy now and I can quit the search. I can keep the MRA on the bike and be happy with it! I can tell you that I will be sacrificing "quiet" for "power" for a long time because nothing else out there makes me feel as good as the Concours does while riding!

Let me ask you one more thing...I am going to be buying a new one at the end of the year or early 2017 depending on what Kawi does with the 2017 model. I'll know more after IMS in November but whether I buy a 2016 or 2017 do you think it will be something you will be able to flash? The flash is too good not to have so I will definitely make that a priority of things to do to the new bike.

  I think 2016's will just be the same as 2015, so that's probably fine. No way I'm speculating on 2017.

  BTW, thanks for the kind words and vote of confidence! Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: SW ROADRUNNER on January 08, 2016, 07:25:25 am
Steve
Will you be including the deceleration mod on the AreaP exaust flash?
Thanks
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on January 08, 2016, 07:43:08 am
Steve
Will you be including the deceleration mod on the AreaP exaust flash?
Thanks

  absolutely - the Decel flash is a real rider's flash, so it stands to reason I would build from it. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Deziner on January 08, 2016, 08:00:07 am
What about bikes with secondary butterflies removed? I currently have a PCV on my '08.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 08, 2016, 08:05:25 am
My bike still has flies in.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Deziner on January 08, 2016, 08:09:19 am
I corrected my previous post. My flies have been removed.

Brain fade. This whole getting old thing...
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on January 08, 2016, 08:12:02 am
What about bikes without secondary butterflies removed? I currently have a PCV on my '08.
We early adopters are sol...unless you put the flies back in....and go to single side exhaust. We're to small of market for the work Steve would have to invest. Understandable.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Deziner on January 08, 2016, 09:25:57 am
We early adopters are sol...unless you put the flies back in....and go to single side exhaust. We're to small of market for the work Steve would have to invest. Understandable.


I have zero complaints about the way my bike runs. As far as I can tell, I have no "twitchy throttle" issues, no hesitation, no flat spots, nada. But, as always, better performance is always better.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: MrPepsi on January 08, 2016, 10:32:24 am
Ok, in contemplating this flash, what is involved in removing the ECU and what must be shipped to Steve?
Is there somewhere I missed directions for removal and shipping?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on January 08, 2016, 11:14:48 am
Ok, in contemplating this flash, what is involved in removing the ECU and what must be shipped to Steve?
Is there somewhere I missed directions for removal and shipping?

pm me your email, I'll send you the info.

 You can also PM me through my site. in the sig line. steve

Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on January 08, 2016, 11:16:02 am
Ok, in contemplating this flash, what is involved in removing the ECU and what must be shipped to Steve?
Is there somewhere I missed directions for removal and shipping?

pm me your email, I'll send you the info.

 You can also PM me through my site. in the sig line. steve

Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: MrPepsi on January 08, 2016, 11:22:53 am
PM sent. Thanks!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Throttle 8 on January 08, 2016, 04:29:25 pm
Ok, in contemplating this flash, what is involved in removing the ECU and what must be shipped to Steve?
Is there somewhere I missed directions for removal and shipping?

It took me all of 5 minutes yesterday when I took mine out to ship to Steve. The longest part was unscrewing the 4 bolts that hold in the tool kit. :chugbeer:

P.S: the packaging of the ecu actually took the longest. I expect a rant from Steve on here shortly about my Russian nesting doll approach to keeping it secure and out of harm. lol!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on January 08, 2016, 05:08:09 pm
It took me all of 5 minutes yesterday when I took mine out to ship

Yep, when I took mine out years ago to send to Ghul for flashing, it took about 5 minutes.  Easy as 3.14 (Pi :) )  It is probably one of the easiest mods ever, and most important too.  (Although in my case, all the lowering stuff was a higher priority).
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: blue14 on January 08, 2016, 05:56:23 pm
     Last week I flashed a bike, in my shop, for a member of this forum. He was the perfect guy for it too...long time rider, former Moto racer, and currently he raced cars with EFI so he knows the ins and outs of EFI tuning. I'm hoping he posts up here, but from what he told me he knew in the first 300 feet out of my driveway that there was a considerable change in the way the engine ran.

That would be me.  It has been crazy since returning from vacation, so here goes with my impressions of this Flash.

The first thing I noticed is the bike starts slightly quicker and you will smell raw fuel for a few seconds.  Once you start to roll at up to about 1500RPM the same old mild mannered C14.  From there it smoothly transitions to a much noticeably stronger pull at 2000 RPM.  Between 2500 and 3000 RPM the motor is pulling like it used to at 4000 to 4500 prior to the flash. 

When you first bring it through the low end of the rev range you will immediately notice how crisp and clean the bike will be running. 

From there grab a handful from 4000 to 10,000 you will find the front end rises higher and you will lean forward more....because you have to.  The extra 14 HP or 10% here is worth the price of this tune by itself.

Since I normally ride "The Pace" in twisties I went for the "New Map" with controlled deceleration. The first time you chop the throttle from high up in the revs you notice the SMOOOOOTH transition to deceleration.  No more slamming you forward and the deceleration pops ( My bike was ridiculous with that feature ) but rather a consistent smooth controlled deceleration.  So smooth in fact it makes you question the need for a slipper clutch.

The last thing you will notice is fuel economy.  I ran from Daytona to Tampa to get this flash done.  I used 3.8 gallons when I fueled back up in Tampa.  The dashboard said I was doing 41.8MPG and I was USING THE ECONOMY MODE.  After Steve did the flash I rode the exact same route, hammering the throttle a little harder trying out the new flash, and on the return trip I used 3.2 Gallons and the dashboard read 44.1 MPG.  I NEVER USED ECONOMY MODE on the return trip.

In conclusion the bike now pulls much harder from about 1800 RPM through redline but does it smoothly.  It decelerates in a more controlled fashion with no popping which allows you to use the engine as a means of slowing rather than just the brakes.  And it gets noticeable better gas mileage.  The last benefit is the general smoothness both accelerating and decelerating makes the bike again noticeably less tiring to ride.  Steve has achieved a number of things the average "Race Tuner" doesn't even consider namely increased performance and efficiency along with greatly improved drivability/rideability.

For 8 years the first modification new C14 riders are urged to make is swapping to better rubber and trashing the OEM tires.  I am telling you Steve's flash is now the first thing anybody should do to a C14 .....because Kawasaki could have done it this way and didn't. 

The last thing you will notice is Steve is one hell of a nice guy and he gives a **** about what he does and wants it right by you guys.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on January 08, 2016, 06:03:09 pm
Blue, are you running stock exhaust?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: blue14 on January 09, 2016, 04:15:22 am
Blue, are you running stock exhaust?

Stock with Vance and Hines slip on.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Dan Forker on January 31, 2016, 05:19:25 pm

Well, finally the wait is over. Sent my ECU to Steve the week before Christmas and he promptly returned it, but when it arrived back to central Kansas where I live, it was too cold to want to either put it back in the bike in an unheated garage or if I did it was too cold to ride and the roads were covered in ice and snow. Finally, today we caught a break in the weather and I installed the ECU and took the bike for a short ride. The only problem was that the only road with any curves within 100 miles of home had been heavily sanded when the snow was on the ground and no rain to wash the roads clean, but after going through the short set of curves a couple of times I figured out where there was sand and where it was clean, so I got a little experience with the flash. I did not get the flash with the added decal. Steve had just come out with it and called to offer it to me as an alternative before he flashed the ECU but I declined because there wasn't any comment about the decal flash yet since he had just finished it. First I've got to say that I immediately noticed how smooth the bike was after the flash. I drove to a large empty parking lot and did figure 8's at idle and was amazed. It is sooooooo smooth and picking up the throttle off of idle no longer had the herky jerky that had been there with the OEM flash. The change is amazing. I didn't have much of an opportunity to try it out at over 4000 rpm's  because of the sand in the corners and short straights to the next corner. Getting to the corners I did wring it out a little bit and felt that the acceleration above 4000 was even greater than stock. Also, I got a chance to pass other vehicles one or two times and deliberately did not down shift. Acceleration in those circumstances was also noticeably greater.

One last comment. Steve's customer service is far above and beyond what you would ever expect. The shipping time for my ECU to get to Steve initially was slower than he and I expected, I suspect because I sent it just before Christmas. He called me and emailed several times to keep my updated about it's arrival. I can't say enough good things about him. He's the greatest customer service representative any business could have.

Is it worth the cost?  You bet. It is a real improvement in the way the bike handles. Am I satisfied with the amount of engine decal since I didn't get the newest flash with more decal? I think so. I tried downshifting going into the corners and thought it was good and I'm afraid that more engine decal might take away from the smoothness. When I go to Arkansas the last week of April and first week of May, I'll post again if it changes my mind. Steve offered a reduced price to reflash to the decal program if I decide I want it. Right now I doubt I will send it back, but we will see.

My ECU had already been flashed by Guhl and I think this flash is noticeably better. Great improvement and a great guy to work with.

Fork
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 09, 2016, 01:54:23 pm
Nice weather and decided to take the bike out for a spin..  Peppy as all get out, even in the higher gears.  I'm liking this.  What I would like to do is ride another gen1 (gen2 simply not worth it) and compare.  Maybe I'll set a ride in April or May and host a lunch or something..
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on March 09, 2016, 02:15:03 pm
You head west...I'll head east and we can have a north/south shootout.  8)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: zarticus on March 09, 2016, 03:13:13 pm
Nice weather and decided to take the bike out for a spin..  Peppy as all get out, even in the higher gears.  I'm liking this.  What I would like to do is ride another gen1 (gen2 simply not worth it) and compare.  Maybe I'll set a ride in April or May and host a lunch or something..

So I have to ask, Whats up with the gen2 dis ?, Same engine & bike with fairing changes & some other updates
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on March 09, 2016, 03:22:16 pm
So I have to ask, Whats up with the gen2 dis ?,

It is called "jealousy" :)

Quote
Same engine & bike with fairing changes & some other updates

Quite a few useful updates, actually.   Next model will probably be out this year, then we gen2 guys can dis the gen3 :)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 09, 2016, 04:44:33 pm
Excellent!  And we'll dis the Gen2 and Gen3. 
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: mikeb2411 on March 09, 2016, 04:46:21 pm
It is called "jealousy" :)

Quite a few useful updates, actually.   Next model will probably be out this year, then we gen2 guys can dis the gen3 :)

Still hearing the next model will be Gen 4
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on March 09, 2016, 04:59:36 pm
Excellent!  And we'll dis the Gen2 and Gen3.

LOL

Still hearing the next model will be Gen 4

Not from anywhere I have seen... there really is no Gen 3 yet.  (The few paltry changes made a few years hardly count- same bodywork, same instrumentation, same drivetrain; at least not in my mind)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Conrad on March 10, 2016, 05:20:56 am
So I have to ask, Whats up with the gen2 dis ?, Same engine & bike with fairing changes & some other updates

It's all in good fun. BUT, Gen 1's are not speed limited as are all the others. 
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on March 10, 2016, 05:23:17 am
better looking too.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Conrad on March 10, 2016, 05:34:01 am
better looking too.

+1
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on March 10, 2016, 05:36:36 am
better looking too.

That is very subjective.  I think the Gen2 is better looking.  The only major "looks" difference are the side fairings.  (With minor ones being the tank top case and mirror heights.)

It's all in good fun. BUT, Gen 1's are not speed limited as are all the others. 

Certainly true, but most people don't know or care and it is easily undone when the ECU flash is performed.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on March 10, 2016, 05:51:54 am
It's all in good fun. BUT, Gen 1's are not speed limited as are all the others.

  I have the speed limiters off on my flashes.

  funny story - I flashed and sent a man his ECU back and he emailed me, seemed a bit miffed that I had taken the top speed limiter off... he hadn't asked for that. I told him to just dial it back a bit if he found himself accidentally exceeding 156 mph  :yikes: :yikes: Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on March 10, 2016, 06:25:12 am
  I have the speed limiters off on my flashes.

  funny story - I flashed and sent a man his ECU back and he emailed me, seemed a bit miffed that I had taken the top speed limiter off... he hadn't asked for that. I told him to just dial it back a bit if he found himself accidentally exceeding 156 mph  :yikes: :yikes: Steve
that's funny
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: mikeb2411 on March 10, 2016, 09:29:16 am
It's all in good fun. BUT, Gen 1's are not speed limited as are all the others.

I have a Gen 2 bike and Steve's flash so my bike's not "speed limited" any longer ;D!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: connie14boy on March 10, 2016, 09:44:29 am
I have a Gen 2 bike and Steve's flash so my bike's not "speed limited" any longer ;D!

Only P/whipped limited.. ;D
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: mikeb2411 on March 10, 2016, 09:45:36 am
 
Only P/whipped limited..

 :rotflmao: So True!  :rotflmao:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: fartymarty on March 10, 2016, 11:38:07 am
LOL

Not from anywhere I have seen... there really is no Gen 3 yet.  (The few paltry changes made a few years hardly count- same bodywork, same instrumentation, same drivetrain; at least not in my mind)

I think that the '15-'16 (and probably the '17  :P ) have enough changes to warrant a Gen 2.1 designation. Most changes are backward compatible but the amount of work required to get the lower 1st gear ratio earns it the .1 designation in my book. We haven't heard much about the change in the linked brakes from folks that have ridden both. I'd like to hear more opinions from those that have experienced both. (in a new thread please) I wonder if one can simply replace the ABS pump with a newer model to get the change in linking action? ($1200.00  :yikes:, never mind ) I personally have found that (understanding that windshields, like seats and bar heights are very subjective) the Gen2.1 windshield is a very noticeable improvement and if the change in brake linking and lower first gear ratio are comparable in scope, then yes 2.1 seems warranted IMO.

It's all in good fun. BUT, Gen 1's are not speed limited as are all the others. 

Just to be accurate, I believe they (Gen 1s) are speed limited, just at a higher speed than the Gen IIs, 300kph vs 250kph (186.4mph vs 155.3mph). Yeah I know, moot (and all in good fun  ;D ), since it's doubtful that it would go that fast even if unencumbered by a limiter...but it is limited just in case someone with ZX14 heads and full area P and stock flash finds a long downhill straight with a 50mph tail wind   ::) .

OOPs, Sorry Steve, extensively off topic here.
(but for the record I didn't start it. This time.  :) )


So to return to topic, yes I said I'd get my reflash in December, and I still haven't done it yet....it is gonna happen. Now I think I should first get my valves adjusted again, and (It's time ODO 47000+) new spark plugs, and a throttle body balance first, so the reflash can really shine.


Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: mikeb2411 on March 10, 2016, 11:47:12 am
I had assumed the 15 and 16 models were considered Gen 3's but maybe not. Anyway, I am looking forward to seeing the 17 model at IMS this next November to see if it's a new Gen!

I'm taking the "ball and chain" with me so she can see what the new bike looks like too and then we (or she) can decide :-[ on which model to buy after we see what's what!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on March 10, 2016, 04:22:07 pm
I think that the '15-'16 (and probably the '17  :P ) have enough changes to warrant a Gen 2.1 designation.  [...]

Agreed.  There are a few interesting changes.  But the number and impact of the combined changes seem pretty minimal compared to everything that happened in 2010.  2.1 seems reasonable.

The big question is this- if the '17 is a total redesign, would that be a "Gen 3" or something even more extreme?  It is one thing to change mirrors, storage, some panels, adding computer functions, changing dash lights, windshield memory, fuel modes, etc.  It is another to change ALL the panels, the seat, all the instrumentation, the brakes, the bags, the wheels, the suspension, the throttle, the injection system, the transmission, the lights, etc.... the type of changes we are likely to see... where few parts are even interchangeable anymore.  I guess we will see.  What makes it hard is that whatever it is, it will like still be a "1400" and a "Concours" or "GTR"... thus, a Concours14 (or GTR1400).

Quote
So to return to topic, yes I said I'd get my reflash in December, and I still haven't done it yet....it is gonna happen. Now I think I should first get my valves adjusted again, and (It's time ODO 47000+) new spark plugs, and a throttle body balance first, so the reflash can really shine.

Quit waiting- when I had Ghul flash my ECU, it was a major WOW... one of those "OMG, *NOBODY* should keep the stock secondary butterfly behavior" revelations.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: connie14boy on March 10, 2016, 05:05:09 pm
I had assumed the 15 and 16 models were considered Gen 3's but maybe not. Anyway, I am looking forward to seeing the 17 model at IMS this next November to see if it's a new Gen!

I'm taking the "ball and chain" with me so she can see what the new bike looks like too and then we (or she) can decide :-[ on which model to buy after we see what's what!

Glad to see you are still fully restrained and P/whipped. ;)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: mikeb2411 on March 10, 2016, 06:26:40 pm
Glad to see you are still fully restrained and P/whipped. ;)

Totally!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on March 10, 2016, 08:42:34 pm
I am ready to ship mine off, it's in a box and I sent Steve an email.  I hope I didn't hose it up. I had the ECU out and keyed on the bike, it got an FI error, duh.  I meant to open the tank and pour more gas in it as I just replaced the fuel filter, but absentmindedly keyed it on, no clue why.  It did start and run fine after the fuel filter replacement and before I yanked the ECU.

And btw, I unlinked my brakes within several months of buying it (June 2013?).  I just put a rear brake line from a 2009 on it, ran it from master cylinder to caliper and plugged the ABS lines, done deal.  I actually noticed an issue with it recently after all this time.  With what I did, I lost ABS on the rear, I don't care.  But it still has the front and rear wheel sensor and when the rear locks up, you can feel it kicking out/stuttering the pressure on the front.   That's the software being dumb, not sure why it does anything to the front when the rear is locked up.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: connie14boy on March 10, 2016, 09:58:20 pm
I am ready to ship mine off, it's in a box and I sent Steve an email.  I hope I didn't hose it up. I had the ECU out and keyed on the bike, it got an FI error, duh.  I meant to open the tank and pour more gas in it as I just replaced the fuel filter, but absentmindedly keyed it on, no clue why.  It did start and run fine after the fuel filter replacement and before I yanked the ECU.

And btw, I unlinked my brakes within several months of buying it (June 2013?).  I just put a rear brake line from a 2009 on it, ran it from master cylinder to caliper and plugged the ABS lines, done deal.  I actually noticed an issue with it recently after all this time.  With what I did, I lost ABS on the rear, I don't care.  But it still has the front and rear wheel sensor and when the rear locks up, you can feel it kicking out/stuttering the pressure on the front.   That's the software being dumb, not sure why it does anything to the front when the rear is locked up.

Seems to me you are playing with fire here. Man, I wouldn't be messing with the ABS, just sayin'.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on March 11, 2016, 06:44:25 am
Seems to me you are playing with fire here. Man, I wouldn't be messing with the ABS, just sayin'.

I did it because I use my rear to tighten my line in a corner when needed.  And I use the front to trail brake into a corner and ease off the brake while rolling on the throttle once I am sure my corner speed is appropriate.  When the brakes are linked, you completely lose that functionality and the bike is not doing what I tell it to, I am reacting to/managing what it decided to do.  I hate that with a fire that burns very brightly.  I didn't pay this much for a new motorcycle for it to tell me what to do.  If you like yours, good for you.  You paid the money, it's only fair you should be happy.  I have done a lot of mods but that is by far my favorite. 

I did the mod 30,000 miles ago and I have ridden it all over the country in every imaginable condition and most times in an sporting manner.  That 'fire' got put out a long time ago.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: connie14boy on March 11, 2016, 10:42:46 am
I did it because I use my rear to tighten my line in a corner when needed.  And I use the front to trail brake into a corner and ease off the brake while rolling on the throttle once I am sure my corner speed is appropriate.  When the brakes are linked, you completely lose that functionality and the bike is not doing what I tell it to, I am reacting to/managing what it decided to do.  I hate that with a fire that burns very brightly.  I didn't pay this much for a new motorcycle for it to tell me what to do.  If you like yours, good for you.  You paid the money, it's only fair you should be happy.  I have done a lot of mods but that is by far my favorite. 

I did the mod 30,000 miles ago and I have ridden it all over the country in every imaginable condition and most times in an sporting manner.  That 'fire' got put out a long time ago.

I happen to have the more desirable 2009 'unlinked' ABS system which works great in the twisties- just cram on the rear brake as hard as you like to scrub off speed w/o fear of lockup when trail braking. This works perfectly to tighten and line up the bike before entering the corner, and I understand now that's why you altered your system. 
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on March 11, 2016, 11:53:59 am
To me, in this particular case, the 2010 model was a downgrade because to unlink my brakes, I had to lose ABS on the rear.  It was a price I was willing to pay and I am still glad I did it but your system stock is better than mine, stock or modified.   Thanks, Obama!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 11, 2016, 12:15:35 pm
Let's keep the politics out of C14 boards..
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on March 11, 2016, 03:18:07 pm
I use the front to trail brake into a corner and ease off the brake while rolling on the throttle once I am sure my corner speed is appropriate.  When the brakes are linked, you completely lose that functionality

I don't agree with that statement.  When you use the rear linked brake, there is more rear brake force than front brake force, so you CAN still perform trail braking.... it is just not the same because it is not "pure" rear-only.  I would call it "marginalized."  And the C14gen2 has two linking modes, high/strong and low/weak...  Some people (and I am not saying you) don't even realize they are in the high/strong mode and that will further marginalize the rear braking independence.

I am really not all that pro linked brakes because I do believe that Kawasaki implemented it poorly by not allowing the user to choose to turn it off (or at least offer more levels than just 2, with additional weaker levels available)... it would be a simple software change.  But I am not against it either, I think some people over-exaggerate the negative effects and it can be useful for many people.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on March 11, 2016, 04:32:48 pm
I took a vote, and all of the people that paid for the bike thought it sucked, so I changed it. And I like it a lot better now.

Believe me, I tried it. I would apply rear brake only and then, midcorner it would put on some front and the forks would dive and upset the bike. It's so much better for ME now.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on March 11, 2016, 05:42:36 pm
I took a vote, and all of the people that paid for the bike thought it sucked, so I changed it. And I like it a lot better now.

Believe me, I tried it. I would apply rear brake only and then, midcorner it would put on some front and the forks would dive and upset the bike. It's so much better for ME now.
:rotflmao: :thumbs:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Rhino on April 14, 2016, 06:52:00 am
  absolutely - the Decel flash is a real rider's flash, so it stands to reason I would build from it. Steve

Is a full AreaP flash available? If so, is it developed to have a full AreaP exhaust with no PC-V or other fuel augmentation system?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on April 14, 2016, 07:22:12 am
Rhino, I think it's in beta testing right now.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Rhino on April 14, 2016, 08:47:46 am
Rhino, I think it's in beta testing right now.

I've been planning to get his flash but now I'm thinking of going whole hog and getting full AreaP with flash at the same time and skipping PC-V.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on April 14, 2016, 09:52:36 am
If your flies are still in that would be so best move.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Rhino on April 14, 2016, 10:25:03 am
If your flies are still in that would be so best move.

Yup, flies intact.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on April 14, 2016, 11:22:42 am
I am finally able to comment more, I have had various issues and not ridden a lot. 

It's way faster and smoother. Not sure how much the slip on added and I don't mean power, it just feels more nimble because it lost so much weight from high and to the rear.

I nearly had it get away from me last night.   I was passing 2 cars on a country road (individually). Went around the first guy, no problem. Stayed in the left lane to see farther so as to decide if I could make the 2nd pass.  A car popped up over the hill but it was a ways off, so I could do it but I needed to be aggressive.  I was doing maybe 60 or so, in 3rd gear, so I was right around 5k or so, square in the meat of the power. I pinned it and it accelerated so hard from just behind the truck to in front that I had to really get it over and get on the brakes.  The person I was heading towards was an old lady, it turned out, so she was super cautious and pulled over a bit.  Also, I think that my headlights influenced her a tad as they are 55W HID and are 'surface of the sun' bright.  But it turned out riskier than I had planned because of the level of acceleration, it reduced my closing time more than I expected.  The road was crowned too, so the whole thing went from 'fun pass' to 'sketchy pass' in a hurry.

The true test is Sunday.  My riding buddy/road trip pal has a 2011 Multistrada.  We rode together maybe 5 weeks ago, way warm for that time of the year so we blew off things we should have been doing and rode 200 miles of twisties.  This is all pretty far out in the sticks and it's between cornfields that are not up yet (getting to the twisties), so it's an ideal spot to drag race.  We raced multiple times, all rolling in first gear at moderate rpm so that getting off the line wouldn't come into play.  We must have done it 5x, from 15 mph to 100+, dead even every single time.  Somebody got a bit better jump each time but once we both got to WOT, the gap never changed.  So we ride this Sunday, same roads, we'll see how it does.  This really is the best test imaginable on how much top end difference the flash made.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on April 14, 2016, 01:36:33 pm
Is a full AreaP flash available? If so, is it developed to have a full AreaP exhaust with no PC-V or other fuel augmentation system?

  is the full area P flash done? well, yeah,really it is. I'm going to Chris Jones Dyno monday the 25 to test a couple versions, but I had it out this past weekend testing the new maps and it's pretty wicked. Now I will tell you this... my flash is going to look rich on the top because it's tuned with the ram air, and the dyno can't simulate it. the real power will be higher, than the dyno runs, so y'all are going to have to wrap your head around this... do you want the map that looks the best on the dyno, or the map that performs the best? Steve

Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Conniesaki on April 14, 2016, 02:10:19 pm
... do you want the map that looks the best on the dyno, or the map that performs the best? Steve

Yes!


 ;D
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Rhino on April 14, 2016, 02:57:17 pm
  is the full area P flash done? well, yeah,really it is. I'm going to Chris Jones Dyno monday the 25 to test a couple versions, but I had it out this past weekend testing the new maps and it's pretty wicked. Now I will tell you this... my flash is going to look rich on the top because it's tuned with the ram air, and the dyno can't simulate it. the real power will be higher, than the dyno runs, so y'all are going to have to wrap your head around this... do you want the map that looks the best on the dyno, or the map that performs the best? Steve

Excellent! I just talked to the good folks at Area P and am now on the standby list for the next production run for full exhaust systems for the C14. They told me the next run in about 2 weeks is committed but they do frequently get some drop off the list. If I'm lucky enough to get on that production run I would like to time sending my ECU out with installation of the exhaust (some time in the first part of May I'm guessing). If I'm not on that run, the next run is in 10 weeks and I will wait until after my planned long ride this summer to get on another production run.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Bob Skinner on April 23, 2016, 06:33:43 pm
I have been flashed by Steve and I liked it.
I'm 72 years old and fighting some heart health problems. Been riding since 1968 or 69. Thinking about selling the bike because the fun/grin factor just wasn't there any more. Bike (2008 C14 ABS) is a great bike but just wasn't fun to ride any more. Missed the thrill from my old Suzuki's gs750 and gs1100. The c-14 just didn't do it.
The IRS returned some of the money they took from me and I emailed Steve. Shipped the ECU Tuesday and it was returned Saturday.
Just back from the test ride and holey sh## .
Everything good that's been said about Steve's flash is true. Low speed throttle response and smoothness is amazing. No more jerky off idle. Smoother shifting, stronger midrange. Feels like an honest to goodness 1400cc bike now. I ordered the Decel option and glad I did. On - off throttle feels like a real motorcycle now.
The fun is back, guess I'll keep[ the old girl for a few more years.
Thanks Steve,

Bob Skinner
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: harry76 on April 23, 2016, 07:40:42 pm
Excellent news Steve!
Let me know when you are ready to start flashing.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on April 23, 2016, 08:41:30 pm
I have been flashed by Steve and I liked it.

I know *I* wouldn't want to be flashed by Steve.  My bike, on the other hand might want to...
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: smokin on May 04, 2016, 09:26:06 pm
Steve I have a question regarding your flash, is it compatible with overseas C14 [in Australia it is called a GTR1400].I have a 2014 model, but I noticed you guys run 91 octane fuel where as in the Australian model a sticker on the fuel tank states 95 min octane to be used.
I use 98 octane BP ultimate which gives best power, throttle response  and economy which I have tested against varies 95/98 octane fuel brands.
P.S.,I have sent you an email regarding cost of including postage and insurance for the Deceleration flash.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on May 04, 2016, 10:30:26 pm
I believe I remember reading that octane is computed differently in different markets/countries.  I can't imagine the fuel requirements of the engine vary from place to place (other than based on altitude) so I am guessing that is why the sticker would be different.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Conrad on May 05, 2016, 04:50:55 am
I believe I remember reading that octane is computed differently in different markets/countries.  I can't imagine the fuel requirements of the engine vary from place to place (other than based on altitude) so I am guessing that is why the sticker would be different.

I believe this is correct.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on May 05, 2016, 06:51:04 am
Steve I have a question regarding your flash, is it compatible with overseas C14 [in Australia it is called a GTR1400].I have a 2014 model, but I noticed you guys run 91 octane fuel where as in the Australian model a sticker on the fuel tank states 95 min octane to be used.
I use 98 octane BP ultimate which gives best power, throttle response  and economy which I have tested against varies 95/98 octane fuel brands.
P.S.,I have sent you an email regarding cost of including postage and insurance for the Deceleration flash.

  i haven't gotten any email from you to date, might want to try through my website, shoodabenengineering.com  And as far as I know all the c-14's have the same physical makeup engine - wise, so the fuel needs would be compatable across the line.

   I think this will cause a stir, but I do not find the higher octane to produce better power or throttle response. It is a good safety measure for the engine though.  thanks, steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: smokin on May 05, 2016, 07:58:52 pm
Thanks Steve I received the email in relation to my enquiry. Just wanting to know does the flash effect the operation of "ECO MODE", traction control or self diagnostic systems of the ECU?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on May 05, 2016, 09:53:01 pm
Thanks Steve I received the email in relation to my enquiry. Just wanting to know does the flash effect the operation of "ECO MODE", traction control or self diagnostic systems of the ECU?

not at all. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Rhino on May 06, 2016, 06:54:33 am
Still haven't heard from AreaP as to if and when I can get a full exhaust delivered.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: blue14 on May 06, 2016, 07:43:40 am
not at all. Steve

It does a little bit in that you get better fuel mileage with eco turned off running Steve's flash.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 10, 2016, 09:53:39 am
It does a little bit in that you get better fuel mileage with eco turned off running Steve's flash.

That's confusing.  I think you get better mileage in ECO mode (or whatever it's called) regardless of whether you are bone stock or have Steve's flash.   I believe Steve just stated that his flash doesn't touch those maps.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: EZ on May 10, 2016, 11:03:07 am
That's confusing.  I think you get better mileage in ECO mode (or whatever it's called) regardless of whether you are bone stock or have Steve's flash.   I believe Steve just stated that his flash doesn't touch those maps.

I think he just means that the bike gets better mileage now (on the flash) than it does in ECO mode. I know it made a big difference on mine. Best I used to see even at cruising speeds for long periods was 39-40mpg. Now I get 42-43 in town. Then again mine is the far superior first Gen with only a GO mode.  ;)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on May 10, 2016, 01:51:45 pm
Mine is getting better gas mileage and I don't have no stinkin eco mode...
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: tweeter55 on May 10, 2016, 02:49:48 pm
Mine is getting better gas mileage and I don't have no stinkin eco mode...
If it did, would you use it?
I think I know the answer.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on May 10, 2016, 04:31:39 pm
Mine is getting better gas mileage and I don't have no stinkin eco mode...

None of use do... but Gen 2's have a FEA [Fuel Economy Assist] mode!!! :)  :P   :deadhorse:    :banghead:   :stirpot:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: smokin on May 10, 2016, 09:28:28 pm
http://gtr1000.yuku.com/reply/50307/Dyno-charts-for-the-1400#reply-50307 (http://gtr1000.yuku.com/reply/50307/Dyno-charts-for-the-1400#reply-50307)

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/ca116b9a007906189439e9712a9b54ac75be9203_r.jpg (http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/ca116b9a007906189439e9712a9b54ac75be9203_r.jpg)
Above a link to  Dyno chart of GTR1400 in Australia with a different Kawasaki exhaust and the flies out. In eco mode it is making more power and torque than in normal mode. Standard unflashed ECU.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Conrad on May 11, 2016, 04:46:58 am
I think he just means that the bike gets better mileage now (on the flash) than it does in ECO mode. I know it made a big difference on mine. Best I used to see even at cruising speeds for long periods was 39-40mpg. Now I get 42-43 in town. Then again mine is the far superior first Gen with only a GO mode.  ;)

 :thumbs:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Eupher on May 11, 2016, 06:34:52 am
I'll be removing my ECU this weekend and packing it up. (I'll send you a note, Steve, per your instructions.) It'll likely go out next Monday.

My 2012 C14 is relatively new; only 1,400 miles on it. I've got a Muzzy slipon on it, and aside from a few ergo/protective farkles, not otherwise decked out. All the same, in low RPMs, there is a bit of catchiness - not enough to be disturbing, but it's there - that I have to imagine would become more pronounced with more miles.

I'm not blessed with a lot of twisties where I live, but there are a few straights that I figure will be interesting to negotiate. All the same, I'm not an aggressive rider but do appreciate a motor with muscle. Looking forward to this experience.

Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on May 11, 2016, 08:43:41 am
just in... finally got the full areaP system flash dyno'd. done on the same dyno as all my other runs, and also the same dyno that Daytona mike used for his flies out / pcv runs. Mine squeaks by Mikes, a couple HP here, a couple there. I think this proves that flies out and a PCV isn't the only way to get power from a c-14.

  Here's the chart, I'm having trouble getting it sized to post. important #'s, 160.83 Hp, 102.69 Tq CF-Std, a/f ratio at top 12.9:1 Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Rhino on May 11, 2016, 09:05:33 am
just in... finally got the full areaP system flash dyno'd. done on the same dyno as all my other runs, and also the same dyno that Daytona mike used for his flies out / pcv runs. Mine squeaks by Mikes, a couple HP here, a couple there. I think this proves that flies out and a PCV isn't the only way to get power from a c-14.

  Here's the chart, I'm having trouble getting it sized to post. important #'s, 160.83 Hp, 102.69 Tq CF-Std, a/f ratio at top 12.9:1 Steve

Sweet!! Now if only I could get AreaP to sell me an exhaust...
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on May 11, 2016, 09:32:44 am
I'll be removing my ECU this weekend and packing it up. (I'll send you a note, Steve, per your instructions.) It'll likely go out next Monday.

My 2012 C14 is relatively new; only 1,400 miles on it. I've got a Muzzy slipon on it, and aside from a few ergo/protective farkles, not otherwise decked out. All the same, in low RPMs, there is a bit of catchiness - not enough to be disturbing, but it's there - that I have to imagine would become more pronounced with more miles.

I'm not blessed with a lot of twisties where I live, but there are a few straights that I figure will be interesting to negotiate. All the same, I'm not an aggressive rider but do appreciate a motor with muscle. Looking forward to this experience.

Have you adjusted your throttle cables?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Throttle 8 on May 11, 2016, 09:33:53 am
Sweet!! Now if only I could get AreaP to sell me an exhaust...

I offered them money. It worked for me! lol! :rotflmao:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Rhino on May 11, 2016, 10:19:40 am
I offered them money. It worked for me! lol! :rotflmao:

I also offered them money. Still waiting.  :(
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Eupher on May 11, 2016, 11:07:08 am
Have you adjusted your throttle cables?

Yes.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on May 11, 2016, 05:29:02 pm
just in... finally got the full areaP system [...]  160.83 Hp, 102.69 Tq CF-Std, a/f ratio at top 12.9:1 Steve

Nice!  About the only thing else to test would be the larger ZX throttle bodies :)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on May 11, 2016, 05:57:03 pm
and dualies...and  :rotflmao:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on May 11, 2016, 06:22:59 pm
and dualies..

Oh, that is true.  I forget that although the full area P is larger header, pipe, and muffler, it isn't is dual system.  However, I don't know if that will ultimately matter.  I suppose it depends :)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Throttle 8 on May 11, 2016, 06:36:04 pm
I also offered them money. Still waiting.  :(

What did they say the issue was? I found them awesome to deal with, they even got me one with the turndown tip because I didn't care for the new styled one as much. I think they might want to concentrate on making a bunch of full systems, because I have a hunch they are about to get busy. ;D
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: kmack on May 12, 2016, 09:02:35 pm
Hey Steve, Where are you in Florida? Is the ecu flash something you could do if the bike came to you? i have no idea what im doing when it comes to this. Thanks Kevin
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on May 12, 2016, 09:44:38 pm
I'm just N of Tampa. I do ride in's frequently. we'll spend more time Bs'ing than working. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: smokin on May 17, 2016, 06:47:02 pm
I took a vote, and all of the people that paid for the bike thought it sucked, so I changed it. And I like it a lot better now.

Believe me, I tried it. I would apply rear brake only and then, midcorner it would put on some front and the forks would dive and upset the bike. It's so much better for ME now.

My 2014 GTR1400 has linked brakes, replaced the original pads all round with metal gear pads and when set on low braking mode and using rear brake only there is very little front braking effect, a lot more from the rear than with original organic pads.
When front brakes applied braking effect has improved to the point where it is better on low braking mode than when on high braking mode with the old oem pads.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: smokin on May 17, 2016, 06:56:21 pm
I am finally able to comment more, I have had various issues and not ridden a lot. 

It's way faster and smoother. Not sure how much the slip on added and I don't mean power, it just feels more nimble because it lost so much weight from high and to the rear.

I nearly had it get away from me last night.   I was passing 2 cars on a country road (individually). Went around the first guy, no problem. Stayed in the left lane to see farther so as to decide if I could make the 2nd pass.  A car popped up over the hill but it was a ways off, so I could do it but I needed to be aggressive.  I was doing maybe 60 or so, in 3rd gear, so I was right around 5k or so, square in the meat of the power. I pinned it and it accelerated so hard from just behind the truck to in front that I had to really get it over and get on the brakes.  The person I was heading towards was an old lady, it turned out, so she was super cautious and pulled over a bit.  Also, I think that my headlights influenced her a tad as they are 55W HID and are 'surface of the sun' bright.  But it turned out riskier than I had planned because of the level of acceleration, it reduced my closing time more than I expected.  The road was crowned too, so the whole thing went from 'fun pass' to 'sketchy pass' in a hurry.

The true test is Sunday.  My riding buddy/road trip pal has a 2011 Multistrada.  We rode together maybe 5 weeks ago, way warm for that time of the year so we blew off things we should have been doing and rode 200 miles of twisties.  This is all pretty far out in the sticks and it's between cornfields that are not up yet (getting to the twisties), so it's an ideal spot to drag race.  We raced multiple times, all rolling in first gear at moderate rpm so that getting off the line wouldn't come into play.  We must have done it 5x, from 15 mph to 100+, dead even every single time.  Somebody got a bit better jump each time but once we both got to WOT, the gap never changed.  So we ride this Sunday, same roads, we'll see how it does.  This really is the best test imaginable on how much top end difference the flash made.

I am interested  in how your bike performed against the 2011 Multistrada after the ecu flash on your Sunday ride?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: kzz1king on May 17, 2016, 08:03:45 pm
Me TWO :D

I am interested  in how your bike performed against the 2011 Multistrada after the ecu flash on your Sunday ride?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: tweeter55 on May 17, 2016, 09:14:49 pm
Me THREE! :D :D :D
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: K0rnfl4k35 on May 18, 2016, 06:31:22 am
I'm interested about this as well
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 18, 2016, 10:20:03 am
It seemed to dead even AGAIN, but he pulled his plug from his exhaust.   It wasn't an apples to apples comparison, we both changed, me with the flash and him with the exhaust change.  Honestly, I was surprised I hung with him the first time.  I had the Guhl flash but that doesn't matter when you're shifting at redline.  But a Multistrada has nearly as much HP and it weighs less than 500 lbs, so I was amazed I hung with him on drag race #1.  And disappointed at dragrace #2.

We leave today for MOAR (Missouri/Arkansas) and there will be plenty of hooligan riding.   I have a camera now, so plan on video of the drag race!  I will let him get ahead of me a bit then we will start. We have Sena's, so we will both pin it on the count of 3.   Not sure if he has his plug back in.   Details to follow when I get back Sunday.

Here's a little something to whet your appetite. It's me leaving a light and heading down toward the river, going across the Illinois River from east to west from East Peoria into Peoria proper.

https://flic.kr/p/HgXRVD
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on May 18, 2016, 04:10:34 pm
It seemed to dead even AGAIN,[...]But a Multistrada has nearly as much HP and it weighs less than 500 lbs[...] We have Sena's, so we will both pin it on the count of 3.   

On bikes that are similar, drag racing is all about the start- how much throttle and how much you dare to dump the clutch :)

Quote
Here's a little something to whet your appetite. It's me leaving a light and heading down toward the river, going across the Illinois River from east to west from East Peoria into Peoria proper.

You are like I am- slow and cautious start, THEN I open it :)   Just call me chicken.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Cuda on May 18, 2016, 07:07:33 pm


https://flic.kr/p/HgXRVD

Acid Trip :o
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on May 18, 2016, 08:34:49 pm
It seemed to dead even AGAIN, but he pulled his plug from his exhaust.   It wasn't an apples to apples comparison, we both changed, me with the flash and him with the exhaust change.  Honestly, I was surprised I hung with him the first time.  I had the Guhl flash but that doesn't matter when you're shifting at redline. 
Quote

So now I'm confused... do you have the Shoodaben flash or Guhl's flash? Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: smokin on May 19, 2016, 08:43:15 am
I would be really interested to see how much actual increase there is in performance with the ECU flash against a standard bike in terms of acceleration.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on May 19, 2016, 03:56:11 pm
I would be really interested to see how much actual increase there is in performance with the ECU flash against a standard bike in terms of acceleration.

Kinda depends on the situation and if it is full throttle, starting at stop or roll-ons, etc.  The secondary butterflies quell the throttle, but differently at different RPMs and throttle positions.  There is certainly a noticeable improvement in performance, overall, with an ECU reflash.  It is least noticeable at "OMG full-throttle redline in every gear."  The biggest improvement is in response time and "normal riding" power (like cruising along at lower RPMs and banging the throttle half open).  It makes the bike feel like the large displacement engine it has, instead of like a smaller/peaky/get performance only at high RPM engine.  In that regard, it is a huge improvement and makes the bike tremendously more enjoyable.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 21, 2016, 07:37:05 pm
So now I'm confused... do you have the Shoodaben flash or Guhl's flash? Steve


Had Guhl before on first drag race, dead even.  Now have yours, still dead even.  The Multi pulled his exhaust plug on the 2nd run when I had the SISF flash. Was gonna capture a drag race on video today but was too busy having fun and forgot about it.

Starts were rolling around 10 mph in first gear, redline in every gear until 120.  Really no clutch involved other than shifting at redline.

We left Wednesday after work and slabbed down to Potosi MO.  Then Thursday morning, we left there and ended up in Clarksville AR, 380 mile route, no straight roads.  Friday was from Clarksville to Eureka Springs AR, about 400 miles (we take the long, fun way). Did the Pig Trail and rode to Oark, a lot of 7 and 74, 215, 21, 23, you name it, big fun.   Has a lot of roads with big yellow signs that say "WARNING, Crooked and Steep!", we love those.  Today was from Eureka Springs AR to Seymour MO, then we jumped on 60 to 63, then 44 and 55 slab home, about 540 miles today, 1500 or so for the trip.  125 from Rueter MO to Bradleyville MO is crazy.  I have some video, am gonna watch it to see if it's any good.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 21, 2016, 08:08:41 pm
You are like I am- slow and cautious start, THEN I open it :)   Just call me chicken.

I can do a pretty decent start when I want to, but I wanted to get away from traffic a bit before I really laid into it.  I wanted to already be a speck, then be a smaller speck.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 21, 2016, 08:13:41 pm
Acid Trip :o

It's a $50 used GoPro knockoff, you were expecting Pixar?  It gets the point across and my coworkers enjoyed it.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 21, 2016, 08:38:07 pm
Apparently Flickr has a limitation of some sort.  It only shows a 3 minute video, the actual video is 10 minutes.  Hmm.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/cpsmith58/26554572564/in/datetaken-public/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/cpsmith58/26554572564/in/datetaken-public/)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: smokin on May 22, 2016, 01:41:19 am
Question for Steve, regarding ECU flash. I was wanting to know how and if you do calculate the ARF ratio in regards to the "Ram air effect" at higher speeds.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on May 22, 2016, 05:21:46 am
 Uh-oh... :popcorn:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on May 22, 2016, 05:48:41 am
Question for Steve, regarding ECU flash. I was wanting to know how and if you do calculate the ARF ratio in regards to the "Ram air effect" at higher speeds.

  I don't think it can be "calculated" because the engine is ingesting what comes into the intake and the ratio changes depending on road speed and rpm. in other words if you're in 4th gear / 140 mph / 10k rpm you would use more of the air coming into the intake than if you were in 5th / 140 / 8000 rpm. So I did it the old fashioned way, I rode up to some very high speed (under controlled circumstances) and recorded the events.  Here's some info on that ... 5th gear / 9k / on the dyno - 1.2" HG vacuum. Same conditions but on the road .25"HG vacuum. so you can see that the ram air is having an effect, though I never saw it go into positive pressure.

  Nice video Chris. BTW, I think most bikes will be about even on top if you compare my flash with Guhls. There's not more to get from the engine, it's been gotten. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 22, 2016, 06:28:47 am
Thanks.  It was my first attempt.  I had it mounted behind the windscreen so you can see the gauges, which is fun, but you pay the price by having to look through it. Basically, on bike video is not that exciting unless you're John McGuinness riding the IoM.

I really got it to take a picture a minute for our trip out west in June.  So much beauty we fly by and never take pictures of.  No clue how it will do, we shall see.  I did learn that you kill a battery in 120 pictures/2 hours taking pictures and 45 minutes taking video, so I bought more batteries.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on May 22, 2016, 08:52:15 am
  I don't think it can be "calculated" because the engine is ingesting what comes into the intake and the ratio changes depending on road speed and rpm. in other words if you're in 4th gear / 140 mph / 10k rpm you would use more of the air coming into the intake than if you were in 5th / 140 / 8000 rpm. So I did it the old fashioned way, I rode up to some very high speed (under controlled circumstances) and recorded the events.  Here's some info on that ... 5th gear / 9k / on the dyno - 1.2" HG vacuum. Same conditions but on the road .25"HG vacuum. so you can see that the ram air is having an effect, though I never saw it go into positive pressure.

One site I was looking at claimed about 5hp for the ram-air effect on the C14 (they don't say at what rpm or speed, but I can assume near top on both), which seems to have face validity.  So it is not like it is huge, even if it was ignored.  Your findings of never going positive in the manifold don't surprise me.  BTW, speaking of manifold pressure, I just saw an H2 sitting at my local dealer (and that did surprise me).

It would be so much easier if the bike used air-mass and O2 sensors like even not-so-modern cars do.  Probably just a space and cost thing.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on May 22, 2016, 03:39:35 pm
The newer ones use O2 sensors.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on May 22, 2016, 05:41:44 pm
The newer ones use O2 sensors.

As I recently discovered... but the real deal is the air mass sensor!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: smokin on May 22, 2016, 09:05:54 pm
The newer ones use O2 sensors.

Mine is a 10 month 2013 build date, but sold in 2014 it has no oxygen sensors. When speaking to Moto garage dyno specialist in Canberra Australia, he said some of the Australian models have oxygen sensors some don't. Apparently Europe models have oxygen sensors. But from what I have been told with the ECU upgrade the oxygen sensors are turned off.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on May 22, 2016, 10:04:32 pm
Mine is a 10 month 2013 build date, but sold in 2014 it has no oxygen sensors. When speaking to Moto garage dyno specialist in Canberra Australia, he said some of the Australian models have oxygen sensors some don't. Apparently Europe models have oxygen sensors.

Starting with the 2015 model, every Concours sold in the world uses an O2 sensor.  Before then, certain markets, including USA/CA didn't have them, even though EU did.  Bizarre but true.

Quote
But from what I have been told with the ECU upgrade the oxygen sensors are turned off.

What ECU upgrade?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on May 23, 2016, 06:01:15 am
And from whom would one get such an ecu upgrade?  Steve will be chiming in shortly, I'm sure.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: fartymarty on May 23, 2016, 10:59:23 am
It would be so much easier if the bike used air-mass and O2 sensors like even not-so-modern cars do.  Probably just a space and cost thing.

While we are dreaming, let's throw in a knock sensor...imagine what Steve could do if we had a knock sensor as a safety net.
(This assumes of course that I have any inkling of what I'm talking about, which may not be the case, at least in this instance. I'm sure someone will let me know.  ???)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Eupher on May 24, 2016, 04:44:08 pm
Sent off my ECU last Tuesday (couldn't get to the post office on Monday as originally hoped) and it arrived, post-flash from Steve, yesterday. Less than a week turnaround time, shipping time included.

Installed the ECU during lunch today. Fired up right away and while the idle was a little high at about 1500 RPM, the bike settled down to a more reasonable 1100 after a couple of minutes.

Temps are warm here in the MS Delta (about 88 F.) and when I climbed on board and headed back to work, it took no time for the bike to get up to temp.

I don't have but a few miles of city streets to get back to work, so a full-on review hasn't been done yet, but just to check the "snatchiness factor" I tried an OD rollon at 35 mph. Nothing but sheer torque -- no snatch, no hiccups, no burps, no farts, no backfires.

At only one point could I perform an aggressive start over a couple gears; at 60 mph I had to do an immediate slowdown, but from what I can gauge at this point, the flash is a keeper.

Good job, Steve! Will try to review more thoroughly over the coming weekend.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on May 28, 2016, 03:09:48 pm
This is quite amazing....  Got 51mpg going down south 75-80mph on I95/85.  Coming home got 55mpg and this is with the CB ultra tour dome barn door screen (nearly all the way down) with a mixture of two lane and Interstate driving.  To say that I'm well pleased with this development is an understatement.  I have never seen those numbers before I got the flash.  I will say that I've never experienced issues with driveability before or after the flash.  Power does seem better though.  I had this sentence popping up in my head the whole time today out of the blue....'this is a serious motorcycle'.  Probably one of the voices I hear but that one is on my side this time.   :thumbs:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: kzz1king on May 28, 2016, 04:31:02 pm
I have only put about 800 miles on my new to me 2010. Averaging about 35 mpg. I might be a little heavy on the throttle though.I may need to get the flash sooner than later.
Wayne
This is quite amazing....  Got 51mpg going down south 75-80mph on I95/85.  Coming home got 55mpg and this is with the CB ultra tour dome barn door screen (nearly all the way down) with a mixture of two lane and Interstate driving.  To say that I'm well pleased with this development is an understatement.  I have never seen those numbers before I got the flash.  I will say that I've never experienced issues with driveability before or after the flash.  Power does seem better though.  I had this sentence popping up in my head the whole time today out of the blue....'this is a serious motorcycle'.  Probably one of the voices I hear but that one is on my side this time.   :thumbs:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Eupher on May 28, 2016, 04:37:55 pm
Pre-flash, I was averaging about 38 mpg. Mostly in-town riding. Remains to be seen what I'll get this weekend.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on May 28, 2016, 09:23:33 pm
Pre-flash, I was averaging about 38 mpg. Mostly in-town riding. Remains to be seen what I'll get this weekend.

I seem to average 42.  Ghul flash didn't seem to affect fuel economy (nor smoothness) at all, just performance/responsiveness.

Ah the magic 42... my MPG, my tire pressures, the age I was when I bought the Concours, and the answer to the ultimate question too.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on May 28, 2016, 09:34:22 pm
Yes, I get 42MPG pre-flash no matter how I ride.  Flash evaluation begins tomorrow.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: elp_jc on May 29, 2016, 07:08:18 pm
the Multi is 100 lbs lighter than our bike (both without bags), but has a chain. The Connie definitely doesn't have more power than the Multi's 160HP at the crank. Plus has taller gearing, so something doesn't add up. Either Ducati lied about its power, or the Multi rider isn't very good ::). Don't think our bike has more than Duc's 100 lb/ft or torque either. I don't remember if Multis have a quick-shifter or not. Our bikes don't like rushed shifts, either clutched or clutchless, so that's not an advantage either. Weird, but glad to learn it hangs with it. And after seeing the basically unchanged FJR, I don't think Kawi is pressured to change the Connie yet. It's still the best sport-tourer IMO, especially with price included in the equation.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on May 29, 2016, 09:19:35 pm
the Multi is 100 lbs lighter than our bike (both without bags), but has a chain. The Connie definitely doesn't have more power than the Multi's 160HP at the crank. Plus has taller gearing, so something doesn't add up. Either Ducati lied about its power, or the Multi rider isn't very good ::). Don't think our bike has more than Duc's 100 lb/ft or torque either. I don't remember if Multis have a quick-shifter or not. Our bikes don't like rushed shifts, either clutched or clutchless, so that's not an advantage either. Weird, but glad to learn it hangs with it. And after seeing the basically unchanged FJR, I don't think Kawi is pressured to change the Connie yet. It's still the best sport-tourer IMO, especially with price included in the equation.

  My connie has 160 hp at the rear wheel, over 100# TQ.  Area P exhaust and Shoodaben Flash . Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on May 30, 2016, 05:29:12 am
  My connie has 160 hp at the rear wheel, over 100# TQ.  Area P exhaust and Shoodaben Flash . Steve
:) 
and clutchless upshifts are so smooth you'd think it was an auto trans.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on May 30, 2016, 06:15:57 am
The Connie definitely doesn't have more power than the Multi's 160HP at the crank.

Factory at-the-crank C14 is nearly so (157.7@8,800 with RAM).  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_1400GTR

Quote
Don't think our bike has more than Duc's 100 lb/ft or torque either.

Actually, the C14 is100 lbf·ft @ 6,200 rpm (crank), a full 1,300 rpm's LOWER than the Multistrada....

Quote
Our bikes don't like rushed shifts, either clutched or clutchless,

I am not sure what you mean by rushed shifts, but I have no trouble with fast shifting on mine.  I am no shifting expert, but it shifts as well or better than any motorcycle I have driven (which, admittedly, is only about 4).  And I have no trouble with clutchless upshifting, either.

Quote
Either Ducati lied about its power, or the Multi rider isn't very good ::)

You cannot tell the total performance of an engine by knowing just the peak HP and torque; it doesn't reveal all the rest of the area under the curve [of a dyno test].  But the rider does have a lot to do with everything.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 30, 2016, 10:41:54 am
the Multi is 100 lbs lighter than our bike (both without bags), but has a chain. The Connie definitely doesn't have more power than the Multi's 160HP at the crank. Plus has taller gearing, so something doesn't add up. Either Ducati lied about its power, or the Multi rider isn't very good ::). Don't think our bike has more than Duc's 100 lb/ft or torque either. I don't remember if Multis have a quick-shifter or not. Our bikes don't like rushed shifts, either clutched or clutchless, so that's not an advantage either. Weird, but glad to learn it hangs with it. And after seeing the basically unchanged FJR, I don't think Kawi is pressured to change the Connie yet. It's still the best sport-tourer IMO, especially with price included in the equation.

I think his weighs about 480 or so, my 2012 is about 680 (on a scale made for weighing trucks so ....).  So we did it again, because it's fun.  I got him a bit this time, he said he backed off when it wheelied in first.  We started dead even at about 15 mph in first and I said, "3...2....1" in the headset and away we went.  After 3 gears or so WOT, shifting at redline, I had him by 30 yards.   I'm not sure how to quantify him as a rider but he has 5 bikes, has ridden for 30 years or more and has raced dirt bikes, is also the fastest guy I know.  I can't keep up in the twisties unless I'm on my Speed Triple, the C14 has limits and his Multi's limits are higher.  And did I mention he's better than me?  Tires like a PR2 or Angel GT last about 4-5000 miles with him.  We go to Arkansas and ride pretty hard all the time, no chicken strip on the rear and half inch up front for me, 1/4" for him.  We've passed a lot of bikes and no one has ever passed us.  It will happen, I have no illusions but we won't make it easy.  It made no sense that my bike is just as fast as his but we've done it 4 or 5 times.   He had his exhaust plug in yesterday when we did it.  I notice mine wants to lift the front tire now at WOT and high RPM in 1st gear.   It's a beast now.  It wasn't slow before but it's better.

Every once in a while, I still get a really large clunk when going from off the throttle to on throttle leaving a corner, very frustrating.  I'm not just whacking the throttle on, I roll it on.  Steve, I'd love to supply some parameters to you on how to clean this up, if it's even possible.  What are the inputs you need?   I haven't tried to repeat it, maybe I can sometime.  A guess would be a transition from off to on throttle, not rapid. 2nd or 3rd gear, maybe 5k rpm, 65F ambient temp, coolant temp nominal.  I am not sure if it's trailing/partial throttle or completely closed throttle, but I do know I'm just opening it smoothly, not whacking it to WOT.

I suspect some of this is just drive train slack being taken up, but that happens every time you transition from off to on throttle.  This doesn't.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on May 30, 2016, 07:51:25 pm
PIP, I would need exact info as to the rpm, and throttle position. Part of it, I can tell you, will be the ambient temps. at 65 the engine is being richened by the defaults in the ecu. It gets better around 75. I cleaned a bunch of the on / off throttle stuff up, but it's really hard because I don't ride the same as you, and I have to find the exact cells to do it. Really hard to do if it only does it "sometimes". Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on May 30, 2016, 08:39:45 pm
Every once in a while, I still get a really large clunk when going from off the throttle to on throttle leaving a corner, very frustrating.  I'm not just whacking the throttle on, I roll it on.  Steve, I'd love to supply some parameters to you on how to clean this up, if it's even possible.  What are the inputs you need?   I haven't tried to repeat it, maybe I can sometime.  A guess would be a transition from off to on throttle, not rapid. 2nd or 3rd gear, maybe 5k rpm, 65F ambient temp, coolant temp nominal.  I am not sure if it's trailing/partial throttle or completely closed throttle, but I do know I'm just opening it smoothly, not whacking it to WOT.

I suspect some of this is just drive train slack being taken up, but that happens every time you transition from off to on throttle.  This doesn't.

I'm not ready to do a full review of the flash, as I only have about 100 miles of town riding done to get a feel for the low speed behavior.  I will make three observations on PIP's comments as I was thinking about them as I was riding today:

1.  My Connie doesn't like to be short-shifted, especially 2nd to 3rd.
2.  My Connie doesn't like a heavy hand on the clutch release when upshifting- any gear; let it go quickly and get on or stay on the gas.
3.  My Connie has responded to the flash as if it were equipped with a CVT (continuously variable transmission); the weakness is in the driveline.

I can feel what PIP is talking about on occasion, but I think I can clean it up with technique and a relearning of how to ride with the flash.  A clue is being able to ride in a higher gear than one might expect.  Now I'm talking about town riding, not medium/high speed curves. It is fun to putt-putt around town at speeds 10-50mph... all in 5th gear.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on May 30, 2016, 09:20:18 pm
Let me add one thing... check your battery connections. I had a 2016 I flashed exhibit some really weird shifting / throttle issues, after messing around with the bike it was CLEARLY the ground connection at the battery. tightened it, everything is 100%, smooth as silk. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on May 30, 2016, 09:24:15 pm
It is fun to putt-putt around town at speeds 10-50mph... all in 5th gear.

10MPH in 5th???  Lugger!!!   I would never dream of subjecting the engine to that.  2nd certainly... maybe 3rd on rare occasion or by mistake.  Based on gearing, I am not even sure it is physically possible to go 10MPH in 5th (far too late at night to drag out the data and perform the math).
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on May 30, 2016, 09:42:54 pm
No lugging as I recall. Oh, I see you have the Guhl flash. 8)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on May 30, 2016, 11:11:56 pm
No lugging as I recall. Oh, I see you have the Guhl flash. 8)

You know quite well there won't be any noticeable difference between the two when it comes to lugging the engine....  You is be a lugger!!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on May 31, 2016, 04:25:18 am
You know quite well there won't be any noticeable difference between the two when it comes to lugging the engine....  You is be a lugger!!

Well, my Connie IS the black 2011; I see you got the silver one. :stirpot:

I was testing the 1-2 gears higher claim in the extreme down main street and distinctly recall going about 10 mph in 5th at about 1000 rpm. Maybe I daydreamed it. Will video next outing.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: sanmo on May 31, 2016, 05:05:30 am
This is quite amazing....  Got 51mpg going down south 75-80mph on I95/85.  Coming home got 55mpg and this is with the CB ultra tour dome barn door screen (nearly all the way down) with a mixture of two lane and Interstate driving.  To say that I'm well pleased with this development is an understatement.  I have never seen those numbers before I got the flash.  I will say that I've never experienced issues with driveability before or after the flash.  Power does seem better though.  I had this sentence popping up in my head the whole time today out of the blue....'this is a serious motorcycle'.  Probably one of the voices I hear but that one is on my side this time.   :thumbs:

Admittedly I haven't kept up with the lengthy discussion of the reflashing phenom, but when should we be worried whether the bike is running too lean? Not good, unless I'm mistaken.   :)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on May 31, 2016, 05:41:51 am
Admittedly I haven't kept up with the lengthy discussion of the reflashing phenom, but when should we be worried whether the bike is running too lean? Not good, unless I'm mistaken.   :)

You are not mistaken- running lean is very bad.  Running rich robs performance and causes extra deposits to form, slowly.  Running lean is much worse because it can lead to detonation, which can severely damage the engine.  I suspect Kawasaki tunes their bikes too rich on purpose as a safety measure.  If you use decent gas, the odds of needing that safety are probably pretty small, however.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on May 31, 2016, 09:53:42 am
Admittedly I haven't kept up with the lengthy discussion of the reflashing phenom, but when should we be worried whether the bike is running too lean? Not good, unless I'm mistaken.   :)

Let's remember that running lean induces misfires and costs fuel economy, it doesn't help it. Also running to lean has a very flat throttle response and decreased power... I haven't seen anyone reporting any of these issues. steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on May 31, 2016, 12:49:47 pm
PIP, I would need exact info as to the rpm, and throttle position. Part of it, I can tell you, will be the ambient temps. at 65 the engine is being richened by the defaults in the ecu. It gets better around 75. I cleaned a bunch of the on / off throttle stuff up, but it's really hard because I don't ride the same as you, and I have to find the exact cells to do it. Really hard to do if it only does it "sometimes". Steve

I am sure there is a scenario where I can get it to clunk.  I will have to give it some thought and come up with a test plan.

I can tell you this, the throttle position is at zero or very close and then it gets opened, this is when the clunk occurs.  I can try it at a series of RPM where I transition from off to on throttle.  That's it, those are the only parameters?  The gear you're in doesn't play a part?  It did it before also (pre flash). 

Is it a fueling map?  It feels basically like I give it too much gas and it slams all the drivetrain slop out of it.  But I'm not, my throttle twist is easy and it acts like it's not easy.  I will attempt to somewhat scientifically reproduce it. 

Thanks
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on May 31, 2016, 01:08:43 pm
PiP, no offense but have you adjusted all the freeplay out of the throttle cables?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on May 31, 2016, 01:25:50 pm
OK, it did it before, pre-flash? it's not in the flash. I'm glad you told me that. My tune is WAY different than stock so this is not something that is in the tunes if they both did it.

 Check your ground connections DO NOT THINK I'M JOKING.

 I did a flash a couple weeks ago on a 2016. Guy says the bike has all the issues , hesitation, flatness, etc.  Under 600 miles, wants me to flash it. I did, then when riding it had some really weird upshifts, like the gearing was to low and it rocked back and forth...very disconcerting.  Never felt that before, so I worked on the clutch adjustment, throttle free play, etc. It felt fine. Guy leaves the shop, calls me in a hour, says "it's doing it again" along with some lean surge, although when he was running WOT hard accells it was fine.  Now I've done almost 200 flashes, never heard anything negative like this. After think about it for a bit I told him I thought there was a bad ground connection and the coils were overheating and not producing enough energy. Sure enough, the ground on the battery was loose. I tightened it up and all the issues went away. CHECK YOUR GROUNDS!!! Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on June 01, 2016, 05:57:45 am
I will check the grounds.  I only know of the ground at the battery?  If there are more, let me know.  I am leaving on a 4700 mile trip out west 6-23-16. 

I rode home last night and messed around.  It's right at 3k.  It did it before and after the flash. It's one of the reasons I bought the flash.  The lower the gear, the worse it is. 

Any gear, worse in lower gears, most prominent in 2nd and 3rd.  A big snap in 1st will make it wheely, heh heh.  That's a bit much for the old girl thought.

Scenario
70F ambient
Completely off throttle to partially open throttle (NOT a snap to full accel)
Huge difference in various rpm, 4k is OK, 2.5k is OK

Sure seems like mapping.  It's partially caused by the shaft drive, you're loading one side of the gears on decel, then slapping over to the other side as you roll on and take up the driveline slack.  But at 3k, it's worse as it goes from low something to way more something (fuel, I assume).
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on June 01, 2016, 07:06:59 am
I will check the grounds.  I only know of the ground at the battery?  If there are more, let me know.  I am leaving on a 4700 mile trip out west 6-23-16. 

I rode home last night and messed around.  It's right at 3k.  It did it before and after the flash. It's one of the reasons I bought the flash.  The lower the gear, the worse it is. 

Any gear, worse in lower gears, most prominent in 2nd and 3rd.  A big snap in 1st will make it wheely, heh heh.  That's a bit much for the old girl thought.

Scenario
70F ambient
Completely off throttle to partially open throttle (NOT a snap to full accel)
Huge difference in various rpm, 4k is OK, 2.5k is OK

Sure seems like mapping.  It's partially caused by the shaft drive, you're loading one side of the gears on decel, then slapping over to the other side as you roll on and take up the driveline slack.  But at 3k, it's worse as it goes from low something to way more something (fuel, I assume).

  Yeah, I know what you are feeling... it's not mapping though I understand why you would think so, if I didn't know better I would too. I worked all that hard during building the maps, and going from closed throttle to open throttle can be a problem like you're experiencing, so I worked hard to smooth that transition because I ride like that too.

   Now back to the battery issue - If I hadn't ridden on it, I would have  a real hard time understanding it, but yeah, it showed itself as really bad upshifts. Everything else felt normal til the shift...WOW that was bad. worse in the low gears, but even cruising 4th gear around 3k then rolling the throttle on would give this big bang of power, like the TPS skipped over all the transition cells and went right to cells that gave a lot of fuel. Terrible. I would have been really flipped out and worried if I didn't have as much experience with the flash, but I knew it was not the flash, it was in the bike, so I went after it from that angle. Sure enough, found the ground at the battery was loose. tightened it up and the bike runs 100% perfect. Who in the world woulld think the battery connection would do that? BTW, the big clue was when the owner told me it did that before the flash, too... that really helped me be sure it was in the bike. Let's see if that's the case with yours. Check the battery first.  Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Deziner on June 01, 2016, 07:22:31 am
There is an AMAZING amount of knowledge to be gained by hanging out on this forum.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on June 01, 2016, 08:37:36 am
I will take a look and report back ASAP.

Thanks for your input!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on June 01, 2016, 11:19:00 am
This bike is very sensitive to voltage issues and the battery area can develop loose connections and invisible corrosion.  Good to check these things at least once a year if not sooner.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on June 01, 2016, 12:32:29 pm
Maybe we need to get Steve to come up with a kickstart conversion to eliminate the battery.  This would eliminate Kipass, which would make 'the other half' happy as well.  That way, next time someone complains about anything on the bike, from starting, to shifting, to givin' it gas, we can all say, "You Shoodakickstartedit."

Steve- I hand over to you all rights to everything in this post.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Cold Streak on June 01, 2016, 02:15:41 pm
Meh, that would start a discussion about the optimum length of the kick start lever, what sort of tip it needs, et al.  I couldn't take it.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on June 01, 2016, 04:12:37 pm
Meh, that would start a discussion about the optimum length of the kick start lever, what sort of tip it needs, et al.  I couldn't take it.

 Me either :o  Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Hooligan on June 01, 2016, 11:57:43 pm
Meh, that would start a discussion about the optimum length of the kick start lever, what sort of tip it needs, et al.  I couldn't take it.

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: kennqc on June 02, 2016, 02:34:54 pm
OK, a little background here. I have an '09 ABS, fairly low mileage.  for the last two years for medical reasons have not ridden it much.  finally I am able to ride, got it ready to go a few weeks ago and it rides fine.  I have been mulling over an ECU flash for years and just have not felt i could do it but this thread convinced me. got mailing instructions from steve and sent it off priority last thursday. I figured he might get it on saturday, holiday weekend so work on it tuesday, mail on Wednesday. Nope, got a tracking number on Tuesday and picked it up today, pretty amazing service!!  So, feeling very excited like a kid with a new toy, i unwrapped the ecu and headed for the barn all set to get it installed and get on the road.  installation went pretty easy, went back to get my fob and No Joy! the red light is slow flashing on the display but key will not turn. so, out it came , reinstalled and same results.  I knew the battery was brand new and it had been running fine prior to the flash so out of desperation i emailed steve. 'bout an hour later steve called and we headed out to the barn.  when i described what happened or did not happen, he immediately proclaimed it to be a keypass problem,  Ah man, just what I expected from a dealer who did not want the responsibility of a failed flash, after all , it was working before i took it apart and not working after i reinstalled it. this was a classic case of panic and the random intersection of two events leading to an assumption of causality. when something like this happens i am usually pretty good at eliminating possible causes before jumping to conclusions.  Steve merely suggested trying my spare fob or replacing the battery and sure enough the connie roared to life.  my hat is off to steve, great speedy service, immediate response to a problem, and immediately able to correctly diagnose the problem and propose the correct solution.  After a brief ride up the highway my impression is that it shifts smoother and has more pep.  will let you know after my next trip. Kudos to Steve!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on June 02, 2016, 05:23:28 pm
Yeah Ken that was an easy one, but until you go through some of the oddities of kipass, I think most owners end up with a head scratchin' event at one point or another.  Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Bunk on June 03, 2016, 04:17:27 pm
Don't you mean the powah of Kipass?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on June 05, 2016, 05:04:29 pm
Just did a thousand miler over the last several days and am very impressed over the Flash.  One day I got 55mpg with no loss of power and riding two up!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Cold Streak on June 06, 2016, 07:53:28 am
Went to Road America for the Superbike weekend.  It always involves some impromptu "racing" on the backroads.  My buddy has a ZX14.  I felt like I was keeping up with him much better than in past years.  Once as I went to WOT from about 30 mph, the back tire was on the paint stripe and the back wheel spun up before grabbing some traction and launching.  Never had that happen before.   :yikes:  There was no doubt about the extra power in the lower rpm ranges.  Fun multiplied.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Hooligan on June 06, 2016, 07:57:11 am
Went to Road America for the Superbike weekend.  It always involves some impromptu "racing" on the backroads.  My buddy has a ZX14.  I felt like I was keeping up with him much better than in past years.  Once as I went to WOT from about 30 mph, the back tire was on the paint stripe and the back wheel spun up before grabbing some traction and launching.  Never had that happen before.   :yikes:  There was no doubt about the extra power in the lower rpm ranges.  Fun multiplied.


I had the  '06 ZX14. Just so much more comfortable and confident on the Connie than I ever was on the ZX.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: smokin on June 18, 2016, 08:04:07 pm
Question for Steve, does your flash or have you developed a flash to compensate for when the secondary flies are removed?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on June 18, 2016, 08:21:44 pm
Steve's flash is for flies in. I don't believe he's going to do a no flies flash as he uses them to optimize performance.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on June 18, 2016, 10:07:19 pm
There really isn't much point to reflashing the ECU if the secondary butterflies have been removed.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: sanmo on June 21, 2016, 12:44:42 pm
What do you do with the subthrottle valve actuator after pulling the secondary flies? Disconnect or does it continue to function in futility?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on June 21, 2016, 01:16:17 pm
This is not the thread for fly pulling. Pull your flies somewhere else please! We are flashing ECUs in such a way as to discourage the pulling of flies.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: MrPepsi on June 21, 2016, 01:28:51 pm
Actually there are huge helpful threads on fly pulling.
Just do a bit more searching.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on June 21, 2016, 02:22:09 pm
This is not the thread for fly pulling. Pull your flies somewhere else please! We are flashing ECUs in such a way as to discourage the pulling of flies.

Actually there are huge helpful threads on fly pulling.
Just do a bit more searching.

What they both said...
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: sanmo on June 21, 2016, 07:03:44 pm
Ha. Impressive display of synchronized PMS.
Did I inquire about some aspect of flyectomy or fly fishing........
I know, I know you don't want any distractions from your laser focus on ECU flashing. My bad....
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on June 21, 2016, 08:06:09 pm
Or just start a new thread.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on June 21, 2016, 09:45:26 pm
Or just start a new thread.

Ug
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on June 22, 2016, 04:55:14 am
 ;D
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: fartymarty on June 22, 2016, 12:03:24 pm
Or just start a new thread.

Ug
;D

I could watch you two go at it all day  :finger_fing11:, ...is it just me?  :popcorn:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on June 22, 2016, 12:44:17 pm
It is.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on June 22, 2016, 04:05:21 pm
It is.

LOL!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: fartymarty on June 22, 2016, 05:13:53 pm
It is.

Touché!  :1DeadBanana    ;D
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Cuda on June 22, 2016, 08:01:48 pm
Ha. Impressive display of synchronized PMS.
Did I inquire about some aspect of flyectomy or fly fishing........
I know, I know you don't want any distractions from your laser focus on ECU flashing. My bad....






Shut your Fly!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on June 22, 2016, 09:16:19 pm





Shut your Fly!

And leave it alone!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: sanmo on June 27, 2016, 02:07:02 pm


Shut your Fly!

Come here for the bike and stay for the exquisite humor.......or not.
For instance, little cuda could have gotten more laughs by posting "Shut the Fly Up" instead. Oh well...
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on July 02, 2016, 06:15:02 am
So I have a question... this is a real question, a curiousity...

  Slip ons are extremely popular. Generally 3-500.00, we see in the case of the remus or the akrapovic much more expensive. Go to any gathering of c-14's and almost all the bikes have a slip on of one sort or another. Yet I was listening to a conversation by some c-14 owners, standing by their bikes with slip ons, that they felt the ECU flash wasn't worth the cost. None of them had the flash, they were just justifying why they weren't going to get the ECU flashed. BTW, these statements were made to other guys who do have the flash, and were defending their decision, not to me.

 Being a pretty practical guy, this just leaves me shaking my head. 300.00 for something that really changes the performance  of the bike for the better, vs  the cost of a slip on, which maybe has cool factor but effectively does nothing for the performance.

  So the question... Can anyone who understands human nature explain this to me? In my feeble mind, it doesn't make much sense.  Thanks - steve

 
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on July 02, 2016, 06:22:01 am
For one ...the ecu upgrade doesn't have any parking lot 'look at me' value. Kind of a 'more chrome' mindset.  ::)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on July 02, 2016, 06:35:00 am
For one ...the ecu upgrade doesn't have any parking lot 'look at me' value. Kind of a 'more chrome' mindset.  ::)

  Oh yeah, I forgot to add that I put 2000.00 of suspension on my bike, can't see it, either, so nobody knows, but wow was it worth it! Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on July 02, 2016, 06:53:50 am
Slip ons are extremely popular. [...]Go to any gathering of c-14's and almost all the bikes have a slip on of one sort or another. Yet I was listening to a conversation by some c-14 owners, [...] that they felt the ECU flash wasn't worth the cost. [...] Can anyone who understands human nature explain this to me?

As I see it, there are three factors at work that would make one value and perform a muffler swap over or before an ECU reflash:

Firstly: Peer pressure is a very powerful thing.  Everyone else has it.  I will be teased by not having it.  I need to look or sound a certain way.  I don't fit the needed stereotype. Given that or something that really does affect performance, it is no surprise most people would pick the muffler every time.  And it can be seen and shown off.  Most won't admit it, but I suspect this is the primary driving force of this decision.

Secondly:  There is still this very pervasive myth that replacing the factory muffler will gain meaningful power and should be the first thing that is done.  It doesn't compute for people that a simple reflash could do much compared to replacing the muffler... oh, sorry, I mean "the exhaust [but not the exhaust system]".

Thirdly: People price/value tangible/physical things more over intangible/conceptual things.  They can have the same real-world value in what they do, but time after time, people will put a lower expected price on something intangible (music, video, software, digital photos, etc) vs physical (cd, dvd, computer, camera, etc).
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Ron Dawg on July 02, 2016, 07:29:20 am
Peer pressure;

Positive self & peer reinforcement by just looking at the bike (you can see what you spent right there and so can others-boys and toys);

Perceived cool/competence factor  (i.e. you must be a FAST rider, just look at that can!..)

Some people follow the herd and can't/won't think for themselves or admit it

Think the "incremental improvement is not worth the money" because they haven't tried it. I didn't try it but I valued the opinion of some of my peers who did. And it IS worth it.
You can re-sell it if you don't like it (probably doesn't happen as much as they think) or sell the bike-can't do that with the Flash.

It's all about others, the Flash is all about the rider experience. (I think it's true about a lot of things, but most of my riding is pretty well all about me anyway, so who cares).

Flashy can you can see vs practical mod that you can only feel, not see (see the gaudy riding leathers, helmet graphics, ugly gloves, etc.- more boys & toys- okay with me, not my style). How gaudy is the Aerostitch gear?

Style itself - Who are the Two Brothers and why should I care? Wonder if these guys used to hang at the mall when they were kids? ::) (See point about practical above.)

Last: Loud Pipes Save Lives (they secretly wonder if it's true...)

Ron
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: blue14 on July 02, 2016, 07:42:49 am
Can't explain it Steve.  I have a slip on mainly to lose weight and it looks cool, sounds cool.  Did nothing for power.  I did your flash and it is the best money I have spent on the bike without a doubt, followed closely by the suspension improvements I just did.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Ron Dawg on July 02, 2016, 07:54:50 am
...and there are those who like both! Blue's right. Some like both.

Every product has features and benefits far in excess of the 3-4 that make a particular customer buy. The trick in closing the sale is to identify WHICH 3-5 are attractive to the customer at hand and to sell on that basis. Choosing on one feature or another doesn't change the product, only the perceived benefit being purchased.

Personally, I've got the Flash and am considering a pipe, too because of the weight and looks, but my priorities are mine....
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on July 02, 2016, 08:08:28 am

Personally, I've got the Flash and am considering a pipe, too because of the weight and looks, but my priorities are mine....


  Interesting. I have an area P full system on mine now, I put t on to build a tune for it. My bike dyno's almost 103 # TQ and 160.8 hp. Crazy strong. I might pull it off though, because there's no way I can even use that power, and I like the throttle response smaller pipes give, even at the loss of power at 10K... I only go there to scare myself  :o :o Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 02, 2016, 08:32:31 am
I have an Area P can and the ECU flash..  Like both.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on July 02, 2016, 10:40:16 am
I agree with the comments so far regarding perceived value of 'can vs. flash'. For the vast majority of C14 owners with average or less riding skill, or the inability to tell the difference in a flashed vs. non-flashed bike, a real performance gain isn't even necessary. The bike has more power and capability than most people can use as-is. If nothing else was ever said on this topic, the previous sentence explains why there is reluctance in getting the flash.

I don't mean the following statement to serve as my review of the flash (yes, I have it), but I don't know that I have the riding chops or the previous experience to tell the difference between the flash and the two OE maps that came with the bike. I couldn't tell any difference in the two OE modes other than the slight bump in RPM going to ECO. So far, I can't tell the difference between SISF and ECO modes; I don't even know what to look/listen/feel for to know the difference. IF the benefits of the flash are real, then the problem in being able to experience them lies with me, or my ability, or my riding style, etc. I'll never reach 10k RPM; I've never been over 6k I don't think, and never will. I bought the flash on faith that the result would be a better overall bike for how I ride it. Maybe my definition of touring or low speed performance is different than SISF's. I don't doubt SISF's ability to tune or evaluate the results of his work, it just may be outside of MY realm to evaluate the results. Like I said, I bought it on faith. Maybe SISF can provide some 'tests' I can do between flash and ECO that demonstrates the difference? Even so, those tests may just be academic; if I can't perceive it in everyday life, then so what?

I'm not disappointed though; one thing I have noticed is an increase in MPG from 42 to 48 and the computed average is matching my odo/fuel pump calculations. I like that- and that is comparing to ECO mode prior to the flash. I have to believe that if the bike is getting 14% better mileage that SOMETHING is better; I just don't know what it is. BUT, my bike is also still breaking in AND I ran a bottle of Techron through it. So who knows?

I'm buying a can too; Area P carbon fiber as it turns out. It's the best looking can out there (to me), mounts the best, integrates to the bike and bag the best, and the owner has convinced me that he builds the highest quality product. If there is an accessory that could presume to tell the moto world that you're not a noob, even superficially, it's the can. For me, some bikes I'm interested in don't need a replacement can; the C14 and ZX14 need a replacement more than just about any other bike out there! Maybe not the ugliest can of all time, but in the top two for sure! Again, if there is a performance benefit, it exists in a place where I can't use it. As far as weight savings, yes it exists, but the average rider with all his farkles and luggage and riding gear won't notice it. Ten to fifteen pounds on a 700 pound bike with a rider and all his stuff? If you claim to notice the difference in what a pipe gives you in performance and weight, then you DEFINITELY need the flash!

BTW… motorcycle riding is mostly about image and feeling regardless of what you ride or how you ride it. So whatever makes a person look good or feel good on a motorcycle will dictate how he uses it and what he buys to accessorize it. I wanted a Harley for 20 years before I bought my first bike. Unfortunately, the type of riding gear that I choose to wear doesn't look good on top of a Harley (to me); it looks way better on a C14. So I ride a C14. And I ramble...
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on July 02, 2016, 10:58:54 am
Daddyflip, I'm kind of astonished that you cannot even perceive a difference between the power and ECO maps... the difference is immediately noticeable upon the click of the switch. I'm leaving the flash out of it, because there's no point. Do you really not feel the engine smooth out in ECO? Do you not feel it slower to respond? Did you notice that the stock power map is either accellerating or decellerating at low rpms, that  it's very hard to just hold a light steady speed?  BTW You never need to exceed 5000 rpm to notice all of this stuff... and it's really very noticeable.

  BTW all things being equal increases in fuel economy prove a better tune. There's just no reason that proper tuning shouldn't be economical, and give the best economy for a given riding style / condition. HTH, Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on July 02, 2016, 11:38:55 am
There was more of a difference in clicking the switch between OE power mode and ECO. The bike felt like it would slightly nudge forward and I could sense that maybe the RPMs were higher, even though you really couldn't see it on the tach. It was just a sense that something changed. Maybe that is the smoothing out in ECO you asked about. Now AFTER clicking the switch, I couldn't tell any difference between the two modes. After awhile, I would just go immediately to ECO because I thought that would give me the best mileage. Sometimes I would forget to click the switch and would ride in power mode for a long time before realizing I hadn't changed it. No difference to me. Slower to respond? No. Accel/Decel at low rpms? No, but I spent way more time in ECO than power prior to buying the flash. So I don't think I am wholly qualified to tell the difference in OE power and SISF power.

I perceive nothing when switching between SISF power mode and ECO; there's no noticeable difference to me. There's no difference in how the bike rides or feels. Now, I haven't tried any serious A-B testing between the two modes; I've been running on faith that SISF power is better, so I've given up on comparing and am just riding. I'm bought in, indoctrinated, converted, convinced. Maybe I'm not the best customer you could have hoped for, but I paid like everyone else and I'm not going to give the flash a bad review.

BTW… if I get 6mpg more consistently, the flash will pay for itself in 50,000 miles, even if I get nothing else out of it.

Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Deziner on July 02, 2016, 01:14:22 pm
Never over 6k?  :yikes:    You're still drinking beer. At 7500 you break out the good liquor.  ;D
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on July 02, 2016, 01:14:27 pm
Daddyflip, I'm certainly not picking on you, and I appreciate the support.

   Sometimes I hear / read comments like this. Recently I had a fellow tell me that he was riiding in a gear higher (running lower rpm) after the flash, but that he hadn't gained any power. He didn't understand that it was the extra power that let him ride in that higher gear with ease.

  I think sometimes folks think they should expect another cylinders worth of power. That's not the case... tunes (flashes0 don't make any power, all they can do is "uncover" the power that the engine is capable of producing.

  Also when dealing with low rpm's, power shows up as being able to use less throttle to achieve the same acceleration, using less rpm tp achieve the same acceleration, and better fuel economy. It's not some huge sudden blast of power. In fact a well tuned engine doesn't get that sudden blast of power as it goes to the higher rpms... because the low end power is filled in, so the "power band" isn't as evident. All in all a good tune is actually pretty mellow, there will always be nice calm power available whenever you want it. nothing frantic, and no waiting... it's just there, linear  and consistent, with a little throttle or a lot of throttle. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on July 02, 2016, 03:11:27 pm
There was more of a difference in clicking the switch between OE power mode and ECO. The bike felt like it would slightly nudge forward and I could sense that maybe the RPMs were higher, even though you really couldn't see it on the tach. It was just a sense that something changed. Maybe that is the smoothing out in ECO you asked about. Now AFTER clicking the switch, I couldn't tell any difference between the two modes. After awhile, I would just go immediately to ECO because I thought that would give me the best mileage. Sometimes I would forget to click the switch and would ride in power mode for a long time before realizing I hadn't changed it. No difference to me. Slower to respond? No. Accel/Decel at low rpms? No, but I spent way more time in ECO than power prior to buying the flash. So I don't think I am wholly qualified to tell the difference in OE power and SISF power.

I perceive nothing when switching between SISF power mode and ECO; there's no noticeable difference to me. There's no difference in how the bike rides or feels. Now, I haven't tried any serious A-B testing between the two modes; I've been running on faith that SISF power is better, so I've given up on comparing and am just riding. I'm bought in, indoctrinated, converted, convinced. Maybe I'm not the best customer you could have hoped for, but I paid like everyone else and I'm not going to give the flash a bad review.

BTW… if I get 6mpg more consistently, the flash will pay for itself in 50,000 miles, even if I get nothing else out of it.

I'm sure glad I have the old fashioned C14, original, because all the fuel modes would cornfuse me also....
I have only one fuel mode on mine, and it isn't Eco mode..heheheheh
But I do get great mileage,  never less than 41-42 mpg worst case, pulling my trailer, and riding 2 up.....

When my mileage starts dipping down to the low end, it is my indicator to replace my air filter... and every time I do that, viola... my mpg jumps right back up to almost 50 mpg... for a while... then settles in at around 45-47 mpg.
Id love to have the flash to compare now, but alas, can't happen because I can barely pay the rent now....

I should bugged Bubba way back when he needed beta testers...  I like being a crash test dummy...hehehehe
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on July 02, 2016, 03:59:56 pm
I don't mind the picking; I sorta asked for it in my long post. BUT, maybe it will help folks make up their mind about the flash, which is what you were looking for a page or two ago. The reason I purchased the flash was because of an initial experience posted on another forum, the following positive experiences of other forum members, and the realization that the number of negative reviews of the flash by people claiming to have received it were... ZERO. Unless there was a conspiracy, that was testament for me.

I think you have given examples of what the flash does that I can't describe, and yet another proof of why people will easily choose a pipe over a flash. I believe all the good things you are saying are occurring with my bike post-flash. It's just not one of those things that I experience in such a way that I can provide a glowing review of all the good things that are happening. Those glowing reports are obviously from folks with lots of riding experience, lots of experience with the C14 specifically, and the ability to zero in on the differences and put them into words better than I can.

You suggested I be hard on the bike for awhile to break it in; I've been doing that with the flash and still getting 48MPG, so maybe that is the best testament I can give. But again, for the average moto consumer, the flash isn't flashy like a new pipe or windscreen. I am convinced, however, that I have a better bike because of the flash, even if I can't describe why.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on July 02, 2016, 04:27:40 pm
 Daddyflip, if it helps you any, I'm 2k into a suspension on my bike. And I've never gone this far with suspension before, so I am really having to pump up the learning curve to be able to properly adjust the suspension, and figure our what does what... for instance I had an issue with the shock spring being to light for my weight, so my settings were far away from what was suggested. I ended up speaking with someone very knoledgable in suspensions, and he told me all my hydraulic adjustments were wrong because the spring was wrong. I followed his advise to the letter and wow, compliance with a heavier spring. So when it comes to tuning, there's a big learning curve, and if you don't know what to look for it's easy to look right over it.  Maybe the best thing about good tuning - engine, suspension, whatever,  is to say "I have no complaints".  Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on July 02, 2016, 06:13:29 pm
WHOA! Don't go there! It is a prerequisite of forum membership to have a complaint or two in your back pocket in case there's a slow day!

I have to temper your suggestion a bit: to the best of my knowledge, I had no complaints before tuning and to the best of my knowledge, I have no complaints now. I will say that I trusted the ECU to you and took your advice, much like you did with your suspension, and the end result is a much more satisfying ownership experience.

That's another thing about your human nature question: you provide a service instead of a product, which is less tangible. Folks want that stuff free as info or a download on the Internet. If they can't get it in a box and hold it, the value is lower.

I have no complaints with the stock suspension at 240 pounds. I have no idea where it is set; I drove it off the lot and haven't touched it. I have no complaints with the 5-year old stock seat; I quit using the Airhawk yesterday and I think I like it better. I really can't take advantage of or appreciate most upgrades... except my new CB UTD windscreen. What a transformation.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on July 02, 2016, 08:48:22 pm
or the inability to tell the difference in a flashed vs. non-flashed bike, a real performance gain isn't even necessary.

I can't imagine how one could not tell the difference between a flashed and unflashed C14.  To me it is mind boggling.  The difference is immediate and obvious, it doesn't take screaming RPM or large throttle openings to know.

Quote
I couldn't tell any difference in the two OE modes other than the slight bump in RPM going to ECO.

I can certainly tell... but the diff in FEAM and non-FEAM OE modes are like 1 vs 2 on a 10 point scale, where reflashing difference (to me, anyway) is like 1 vs 7 or something on a 10 point scale.

Quote
I don't even know what to look/listen/feel for to know the difference. IF the benefits of the flash are real, then the problem in being able to experience them lies with me, or my ability, or my riding style, etc. I'll never reach 10k RPM;

It is very noticeable at even medium throttle even at 4K.

Quote
I've never been over 6k I don't think, and never will.

Yikes.  My typical lazy/calm shifting to get to speed in 2/3 is usually at 5k or more.   Spirited riding... much, much higher.  If your TOP/MAX shifting RPM is only 6K and you are usually doing even lower, you are leaving TONS of power never used at all. 

Quote
If you claim to notice the difference in what a pipe gives you in performance and weight, then you DEFINITELY need the flash!

If by "pipe" you mean muffler replacement, *nobody* will notice any difference on a C14, ever, in any way, under any condition.  Period.  If they claim to, it is just in their imagination based on noise.  A full exhaust system, on the other hand, is a different story.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on July 02, 2016, 11:14:06 pm
I can't imagine how one could not tell the difference between a flashed and unflashed C14.  To me it is mind boggling.  The difference is immediate and obvious, it doesn't take screaming RPM or large throttle openings to know.

Are there any circumstances by which you COULD imagine it? Maybe one only had a couple thousand miles on the bike before having it flashed? Maybe during this time, one rode mostly- say, 90% -in ECO mode. According to an earlier post by SISF, a good tune might not be 'immediate and obvious'; one may just "have no complaints". So I have 5000 miles on a NOS 2011; basically half on ECO mode and half flashed. What difference should it make?

Quote
I can certainly tell... but the diff in FEAM and non-FEAM OE modes are like 1 vs 2 on a 10 point scale, where reflashing difference (to me, anyway) is like 1 vs 7 or something on a 10 point scale.

If FEAM and non-FEAM OE modes are so closely related, then should I be able to compare FEAM OE and flash? What occurred at '7' that did not occur at '1' on the 10 point scale?

Quote
It is very noticeable at even medium throttle even at 4K.

What is very noticeable?

Quote
Yikes.  My typical lazy/calm shifting to get to speed in 2/3 is usually at 5k or more.   Spirited riding... much, much higher.  If your TOP/MAX shifting RPM is only 6K and you are usually doing even lower, you are leaving TONS of power never used at all.

I agree with that assessment, but I haven't found a circumstance under which I want or need that power. TBH, a scooter might just as easily accommodate my riding style. However, I have a C14 for its size, weight, and stability on interstates, its luggage capacity, and the sporty look. I don't carve, twisty, or track day. I don't exceed the speed limit except to pass. I ride like I drive a cage; for Point A to Point B alternative transportation on major highways and interstates following the speed limit. I could do with half or a third of the displacement/power, or even a different style of bike might serve my purposes better.

Quote
If by "pipe" you mean muffler replacement, *nobody* will notice any difference on a C14, ever, in any way, under any condition.  Period.  If they claim to, it is just in their imagination based on noise.  A full exhaust system, on the other hand, is a different story.

I do, and I agree, which is why I suggested that if one thought he could notice a difference with a muffler replacement, then he definitely should get the flash because he should REALLY notice the difference in that. I'm sure you would agree based on your endorsement above. I disagree that a full exhaust is necessarily a different story; it only is above a certain RPM where a casual rider like me will never tread. For my convenience, I link to the Area P comparison of their can and full system vs. stock. For both, you have to get at and above 6k RPM for any appreciable power increase to manifest. And to really take advantage of what a full exhaust has to offer over a can, you have to get at and above 8k RPM! To a full exhaust on a Connie under the conditions by which this particular bike will be used, I say, "so what?" I think SISF a few posts back also came to this conclusion for practical reasons.

http://areapnolimits.com/products/Slip-On-Exhaust-Kawasaki-Concours-14-2008.php (http://areapnolimits.com/products/Slip-On-Exhaust-Kawasaki-Concours-14-2008.php)

The purpose of all my posting is to help people understand what the flash is (and may not be) from the perspective of a rider with a much more modest riding background and conservative style. It's for those who are skeptical of all the glowing reports they read, but who could still benefit even if they wouldn't be able to describe the 'differences'. It's these who would automatically choose a muffler for the obvious reasons when they might not even consider the flash. But maybe they should consider the flash instead of, or in addition to, a muffler.

Okay, now I've adopted your multiple quote style… I learn something new everyday.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on July 03, 2016, 06:36:09 am
Are there any circumstances by which you COULD imagine it? Maybe one only had a couple thousand miles on the bike before having it flashed? Maybe during this time, one rode mostly- say, 90% -in ECO mode.

I suppose I could possibly imagine it under those circumstances.  It will be much more noticeable with spirited driving.  We need to get you to twist that wrist some more :)

Quote
If FEAM and non-FEAM OE modes are so closely related, then should I be able to compare FEAM OE and flash?

Yes.  In fact, since the FEAM is left alone on both Guhl and SISF reflashes, it is a great tool to compare before and after.

Quote
What occurred at '7' that did not occur at '1' on the 10 point scale? [...]What is very noticeable?

The changes.  The immediate throttle response.  The lack of hesitation and flat spot in the power band.

Quote
Okay, now I've adopted your multiple quote style… I learn something new everyday.

Be careful- Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on July 03, 2016, 07:51:53 am
I've wanted to try an A-B comparison and really concentrate on potential differences, but I've just not been worried about it… I mean, I've had no complaints. TBH, I've been more pleased with the results of following SISF's advice to 'beat the hell out of the bike' for awhile. Unfortunately/fortunately, that happened on top of receiving the flash so it's difficult to determine which improved my satisfaction. Like I said, I have no complaints. At some point, I will run ECO for awhile to compare objective MPG and will try to compare the subjective differences. In the final analysis, I doubt I will have complaints.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on July 03, 2016, 08:08:03 am
 Here's a nice little test. in 3rd gear ECO mode roll lightly up to 3000 rpm, then give it a good hard turn of the throttle to 5000 rpm. Then do the same thing in power mode. You'll probably have to give it WOT so you can be sure you did the same thing in both tests.  3rd gear is a good gear because you won't go to fast, and you won't have to fight the wheelies. I think the differences will be immediately apparent. Let us know - Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on July 03, 2016, 08:24:04 am
Here's a nice little test. in 3rd gear ECO mode roll lightly up to 3000 rpm, then give it a good hard turn of the throttle to 5000 rpm. Then do the same thing in power mode. You'll probably have to give it WOT so you can be sure you did the same thing in both tests.  3rd gear is a good gear because you won't go to fast, and you won't have to fight the wheelies. I think the differences will be immediately apparent. Let us know - Steve

I will do that today and report back; thank you! Been planning an engine mounting bolt torque check/retorque and going out to do that now. Feel free to talk amongst yourselves. Please stand by...
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Throttle 8 on July 03, 2016, 11:22:15 am
I had to catch up on the last couple pages of reading after a two week tour to the National in Helen and back up here to Canada. I thought I would share some thoughts. I have Steve's flash and an Area P slip on. I just reviewed my receipts, and my calculations show that over the course of 3500+ miles; I averaged 47.6 U.S mpg. That included some easy highway riding, several hours of 85+ mph on the slab, and some shall we say spirited riding in the twisties. I never once put it in eco mode. I was very impressed!
What impressed me most however, was the grunt out of the curves on the Dragon, the Cherolhala, etc. It is impractical to be at full boil on the street, like you would be on the track (especially when you don't want to draw too much attention to yourself); so the grunt out of a corner at midrange was a huge plus for me. It leapt out of the corner! It is hard to express in words the transformation---a good bike was made much better.
I also loved the Area P. It has enough of a growl when you get on it to tell people you are not riding a sewing machine; but not enough to draw unwanted attention.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: kzz1king on July 03, 2016, 11:54:59 am
I want some of that fighting wheelies stuff!
Wayne

Here's a nice little test. in 3rd gear ECO mode roll lightly up to 3000 rpm, then give it a good hard turn of the throttle to 5000 rpm. Then do the same thing in power mode. You'll probably have to give it WOT so you can be sure you did the same thing in both tests.  3rd gear is a good gear because you won't go to fast, and you won't have to fight the wheelies. I think the differences will be immediately apparent. Let us know - Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Ron Dawg on July 03, 2016, 12:10:20 pm
Here's a nice little test. in 3rd gear ECO mode roll lightly up to 3000 rpm, then give it a good hard turn of the throttle to 5000 rpm. Then do the same thing in power mode. You'll probably have to give it WOT so you can be sure you did the same thing in both tests.  3rd gear is a good gear because you won't go to fast, and you won't have to fight the wheelies. I think the differences will be immediately apparent. Let us know - Steve

While we're waiting: From the easy riding side - Rode 100 miles or so today, two up. Normal mileage in the sames places has been 42 mpg consistently. A little slab, a lot of two lane (think like around Helen), some, not much traffic with a few lights. Today the mileage w/the flash it was  48.7pg m. Tried Eco mode for a mile on some sweeping two/three lanes with a hill or two. Difference was noticeable.

So if you happen to want a justification for the CFO...our current premium price (today) is $2.739 at the nearest Chevron. Break-even on fuel savings is approximately 36,500 miles if you got flashed without shipping in Helen ($300) and bought gas @ $2.739/gal; at $4.00/gal. like a year or so ago, it drops to about 20,000 miles. See? Just ride until you make a profit. Frugal! 

Now, back to waiting on  DaddyFlip's test results. I wonder if the rabbit died....
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on July 03, 2016, 01:00:35 pm
the conversation seems to have changed... in the beginning, it was "what did you get on the dyno" or "my bike is fast enough" . Now it's "it pulls hard out of the corners and gets better mileage" so NOW we' re starting to get somewhere  :banana  Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Ron Dawg on July 03, 2016, 01:17:03 pm
So it seems. Sent you a message.
Ron
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on July 03, 2016, 09:13:36 pm
the conversation seems to have changed... in the beginning, it was "what did you get on the dyno" or "my bike is fast enough" . Now it's "it pulls hard out of the corners and gets better mileage" so NOW we' re starting to get somewhere  :banana  Steve

You're welcome!  :finger_fing11:

Sorry it took so long. I pulled bodywork down to the side fairings today and did an engine mount re-torque, tightened exhaust header nuts, and tightened radiator bolts. Took my time and had fun. Okay I can tell the difference in the 3k RPM launch test, but I had to do it a couple of times before I noticed it; IOW, I had to acclimate myself to how the bike was behaving between the two modes. In 3rd, starting speed is 38mph. WOT produces an immediate roar that increases in intensity to where I stopped- 80mph and just shy of 7 grand. ECO… I wouldn't call it a hesitation, but nothing happens on WOT other than gentle propulsion and a gradual build of speed, THEN the roar comes on a couple seconds later.

So imagine standing 10 feet from the edge of a cliff and someone pushing you off the cliff from there… that's ECO. Now imagine standing on the edge of the cliff and someone kicking you off… that's SISF. Did I get it right?

4th gear at 3k rpm starts at 46mph and the result is about the same, though you're at 80 before 6 grand. 5th gear 3k starts at 50mph but the difference is not as noticeable; I did not try an OD roll-on, but I might down the road.

So I realize I may not be capable of realizing all the benefits of the flash, so let's go to the checklist:

1)  The Shoodaben Engineering C-14 flash will improve power everywhere in the rev range, from just off idle to redline. This makes low rpm riding and short shifting very comfortable.. no need to wind the engine up to get up to speed. I'm probably the king of short shifting; I rarely, if ever, get above 4k rpm. But I can see, based on the 3k test, that twisting the throttle at the right time will produce a more immediate response than the ECO mode. I would have to spend more time A-B testing the two modes, but I'm really not inclined to do so. I'm happy with the flash.

2) You will IMMEDIATELY notice that throttle control is smooth and seamless, like a perfectly set up rack of carbs. I think there is still some 'badness', but I just turned 5000 miles today. Still 'beating the hell out of the bike' and that is making a difference… every bike needs break-in.

3)  No abruptness on and off throttle. Up and downshifts will be smooth as butter. You won't have to work to be "smooth on the throttle" anymore. I believe this is better, but my ability to produce clean up/downshifts may be the limiting factor to noticing that the flash is helping me. I can see, though, as a result of the 3k test, that I can and should expect better response at the grip, so I don't need to compensate for this when shifting. Need to erase mental and muscle memory from previous experience with bike. Plus, I can be pretty sloppy shifting unless I'm really trying for a clean ride. I still have a lot of jacking around during shifting, but it's probably me and I might not notice flash improvement in this area.

4) if you ride 2 up, your passenger won't be banging their helmet into yours anymore. I never ride 2 up but because of (3) above, a pillion would not be happy with me. We would still knock heads.

5)  You will generally be riding in one to 2 gears higher for any given condition because of the increased torque. Almost irrelevant for me since I'm always trying to get to OD as quickly as possible anyway. Have tried some in town riding in higher gear and have noticed this is possible. I've tooled around town in 5th as low as 20mph (previously said 10mph; I was mistaken).

6)  If you're just "riding" and not working the throttle hard, the fuel economy increase will be clearly evident. This is me 99% of the time and I have already noticed the same increase others have, in general 42 to 48mpg… a 14% increase.

7) Grab a handful of throttle and look out! My DEAD STOCK 2012 C-14 dyno'd on Chris Jones' dyno gained 14 hp for a peak of 142hp. Peak torque was almost 95# and torque at 4000rpm increased to 87#. Again, this bike is DEAD STOCK, no other modifications! Proven in the 3k test.

So basically, I have a better bike. I have no complaints!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on July 03, 2016, 11:20:43 pm
So imagine standing 10 feet from the edge of a cliff and someone pushing you off the cliff from there… that's ECO. Now imagine standing on the edge of the cliff and someone kicking you off… that's SISF.  Did I get it right?

Yep- you described the problem with the stock "responsiveness" pretty well by using the FEAM to compare.  The engine is restricted by the secondary butterflies which prevents the engine from getting the air you want when you want it.  Less air = less power.  And that main problem is corrected by a SISF or Ghul reflash or by pulling out the secondary butterflies.  The only real "cost" for that change (at least with reflashing) seems to be that the intake is louder.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Ron Dawg on July 04, 2016, 07:00:59 am
Good report DF. Sounds like you ride a lot like me.

Rode 100 miles or so yesterday. MPG was +14.9% for me, too.

I like the roll on/off for the hills, mtns, traffic around N. Ga.

I found a shift point by gear chart in the owner's manual. With the Flash I can now shift at the factory points, IIR without lugging.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on July 04, 2016, 08:33:54 am
 Daddyflip, go over the battery connections  and frame grounds on the bike. My flash shifts like butter when the grounds are right, I mean you can just click up each gear with no clutch if you want to even with very low rpms. OTOH, when the grounds are bad, it seems the first thing to go bad is the shifting. HTH. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on July 06, 2016, 11:02:05 am
I got 52 mpg in ECO mode coming back from Montana to Peoria last weekend.   I spent most of the time in OD and ECO mode.  When I had to make zippy passes, I would drop to 5th and out of ECO mode as it's soft in the low rpm range due to the flies not opening. 

It's pretty stinking quick in ECO mode and OD though, I really did it more for fun.   But there's a big different to me in the 4k range as the flies are more open and it can breathe.  Overall it's better.   I did a Delkovec slip on at the same time as the SISF flash, and that made a big difference to me, I could feel the weight change in the maneuverability and also the sound was way different, obviously.  I knew I wouldn't get power when I did it, it was for looks and sound, but had the added benefit of a weight difference for the better that I could actually feel.  Also, it seemed to get smoother.  Overall the 2 changes made a big difference for me and I'm very happy I did them.

And I really like the stock suspension, it seems to work well (for me) in both cruising mode and being very aggressive (trips to redline, riding on the edge of the tire etc).  I have swapped suspension on a bike before because I hated it.  My 2008 Speed Triple rode like a log wagon (damper rod fork) in both front and rear. I sent it to Traxxion Dynamics and spent $1600 on the AK20's and a shock revalve/respring.  I ended up sending it back 3x, they never did get it soft enough.   I would not recommend them.  I told them 2x it's too stiff and if it was me, I would err on the side of too soft after already reworking it 2x AFTER the first go around. Nope, still too stiff.  Fun bike but a frost heave will deliver a shock to your spine that is very unpleasant.  Yes, I set the sag and yes I tried the clickers.  And no, it's not so soft it's bottoming and that makes it feel stiff.  And I am aware a short wheelbase bike rides rougher when compared to a long wheelbase bike.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on July 06, 2016, 12:31:54 pm
I got 52 mpg in ECO mode coming back from Montana to Peoria last weekend.   I spent most of the time in OD and ECO mode.  When I had to make zippy passes, I would drop to 5th and out of ECO mode as it's soft in the low rpm range due to the flies not opening. 

It's pretty stinking quick in ECO mode and OD though, I really did it more for fun.

It sounds like you are speaking of the three light circles rather than the big black square. IOW, you are referencing the Economical Riding Indicator rather than Fuel Economy Assistance Mode. Unless you were changing gears AND modes at the same time. Just wondering.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on July 06, 2016, 02:05:27 pm
Oh lord, not this again. It's the rectangle you have to use the toggle switch to get  to switch to the other maps. Why did Kawasaki put 2 things on the display that both say 'Eco'? Great bike but that's  dumb.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on July 06, 2016, 02:23:14 pm
I know, I know. I was just checking... Kawi did that so we would have something else to bicker about on forums.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 06, 2016, 02:45:07 pm
First (classic) gen don't have to worry about sorting all that out.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on July 06, 2016, 02:57:45 pm
Yeah, but G1 has all that heat.... :stirpot:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on July 06, 2016, 04:05:51 pm
Oh lord, not this again. It's the rectangle you have to use the toggle switch to get  to switch to the other maps. Why did Kawasaki put 2 things on the display that both say 'Eco'? Great bike but that's  dumb.

Yes, it was incredibly stupid.  A total "F" in the ergonomics and design category on that one.  What you are describing is, indeed "FEAM" or "FEA Mode".   People continue to call it "ECO Mode" (which it isn't) and generally we understand what it means, except when the user is confused by the OTHER "ECO" indicator that appears on the dash (the three circles).
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on July 06, 2016, 04:41:38 pm
A better way to describe what's going on is to say THE BIKE is in Eco (uppercase E, as indicated) mode when FEAM is selected and THE RIDER is in eco (lowercase 'e', as indicated) mode when the ERI is displayed.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 07, 2016, 05:21:40 am
This makes my brane hurt.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: kzz1king on July 07, 2016, 09:31:00 am
Do most of you with the flash still use your ECO mode? I thought I read that the ECO was untouched by the flash and that most got better mileage in standard mode than ECO with the flash.
Wayne
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on July 07, 2016, 09:45:56 am
Do most of you with the flash still use your ECO mode? I thought I read that the ECO was untouched by the flash and that most got better mileage in standard mode than ECO with the flash.
Wayne

This sounds like one of those "yes or no" questions that could get the thread locked. Better to start a new thread and post a poll.

Pre-flash, my "ECO mode", more accurately known as FEAM (Fuel Economy Assistance Mode), returned a consistent 42mpg over a wide range of conditions for almost 3000 miles. I never rode the bike in regular mode pre-flash. Post-flash, the bike has returned a consistent 48mpg over a wide range of conditions for the past 2200 miles. If you RTFM, you will see that FEAM "decreases horsepower". It would appear that the flash increases fuel economy over that achieved by FEAM while increasing horsepower over that achieved by OE non-FEAM.

Wait, I forgot to answer the question. No.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: connie_rider on July 07, 2016, 10:54:42 am
NO.
After you get the flash,,,,, you don't need to use Eco mode...

Ted
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on July 07, 2016, 10:58:57 am
I use ECO/FEAM on the slab on long trips, or on any trip where performance is not important and stretching out gas stops adds value.  I got 52 mpg coming home from Montana on one stop. 

I have gotten as low as 35 mpg on a curvy road/aggressive riding day.  I definitely notice the difference in performance but it's still got enough pep to handle any traffic on the slab in OD and with FEAM engaged.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: turbojoe78 on July 07, 2016, 11:16:57 am
No, haven't used Eco mode since being flashed.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: swojo95 on July 07, 2016, 12:54:05 pm
For me ECO mode still trumps the flash for fuel economy on the super slab, but not by much.  On the way to and from the National, I alternated each tank full, only on the super slab, running ECO mode and the standard mode with the flash.  ECO mode did better by ~2 mpg.  That being said, I did not purchase the flash for the fuel economy and I am quite pleased with the "ride-ability" improvements from the flash. I still wouldn't mind getting the 48-52 mpg others have mentioned? I reset my avg mpg on the display when I got the flash and it is currently displaying 42.3 mpg, which is a little optimistic when compared to hand calculations, and about the same readout as what I had before the flash.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: connie_rider on July 07, 2016, 01:15:38 pm
I did not reset the average MPG when I got the flash done in Helen.
Wanted to see if the average would go up...
At the time (with 5000 miles on the average), it was showing 42 mpg.
500 miles later (including the twisties in Georgia) the average has increased to 45 mpg.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on July 07, 2016, 01:31:30 pm
I did not reset the average MPG when I got the flash done in Helen.
Wanted to see if the average would go up...
At the time (with 5000 miles on the average), it was showing 42 mpg.
500 miles later (including the twisties in Georgia) the average has increased to 45 mpg.

Ride safe, Ted

That's a fun story, but not possible. You would have had to average 158mpg during that 500 miles to achieve the new average.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on July 07, 2016, 01:46:52 pm
For me ECO mode still trumps the flash for fuel economy on the super slab, but not by much.  On the way to and from the National, I alternated each tank full, only on the super slab, running ECO mode and the standard mode with the flash.  ECO mode did better by ~2 mpg.  That being said, I did not purchase the flash for the fuel economy and I am quite pleased with the "ride-ability" improvements from the flash. I still wouldn't mind getting the 48-52 mpg others have mentioned? I reset my avg mpg on the display when I got the flash and it is currently displaying 42.3 mpg, which is a little optimistic when compared to hand calculations, and about the same readout as what I had before the flash.

  The answer for fuel economy being lower for folks like you and I is staring us in the face... literally. Go look in the mirror... there's the answer on why we aren't getting those huge mileage numbers. Regardless, I get 45-46 on the highway at 80 indicated... Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: connie_rider on July 07, 2016, 04:55:02 pm
That's a fun story, but not possible. You would have had to average 158mpg during that 500 miles to achieve the new average.

Agreed!
I didn't think it possible either and wondered about it.
That is why I posted the note.

Wondering how the bike does the average.
Always assumed it is based on the total miles between resets.
Maybe the average is somehow computed on the last miles, or perhaps some other manner?

When I bought the bike it initially showed about 38 mpg.
It slowly moved to approx. 42.
It has bounced between 40 and 43 for many miles.

Bottom line, when Steve installed the Flash, the reading was 42.
It is now 45...?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on July 07, 2016, 05:25:05 pm
Bottom line, when Steve installed the Flash, the reading was 42.
It is now 45...?

Somebody help me. When you pulled the ECU, did you disconnect the battery? Would this have reset your average without you doing it manually with the pushbutton?

Did you do anything else that would have reset the average without your intervention. (I mean you disconnected the battery besides pulling the ECU)

Maybe there's something else we don't know about.

Or else... I want the flash you got!  ;D
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: connie_rider on July 07, 2016, 05:49:13 pm
Steve removed the ECU, downloaded the original program, installed the flash, and reinstalled.

Battery was not disconnected.

But your correct.... possibly probably, the reflashing of the ECU, re-zeroed the average...
So, my average for 500 miles is 45 mpg.

Ride safe, Ted

Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Ron Dawg on July 07, 2016, 07:35:27 pm
If Ted says he got 158 mpg, who are we to doubt him?   :thumbs: (Maybe he added in the trailering miles to and from Helen...)

You go, Ted!

Ron
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: DaddyFlip on July 07, 2016, 08:40:04 pm
If Ted says he got 158 mpg, who are we to doubt him?   :thumbs: (Maybe he added in the trailering miles to and from Helen...)

You go, Ted!

Ron

Now THAT made me laugh.., and I needed it tonight.  :hail: :rotflmao:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on July 07, 2016, 08:56:09 pm
Do most of you with the flash still use your ECO mode?

In my case it is the Ghul flash, and it doesn't help much with fuel economy.  But I never used FEAM before, and I don't use it now unless I am in a potential bind and think I might run out of fuel a little sooner than I need (which is very rare).

Quote
I thought I read that the ECO was untouched by the flash

That is correct- neither the Ghul nor SISF modify the FEAM maps.

Quote
and that most got better mileage in standard mode than ECO with the flash. Wayne

With the SISF flash, yes- most people are reporting better MPG in standard than in FEAM

Update: I posted then realized I am a bit late to the party.  Oh well.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 08, 2016, 04:05:47 am
Somebody help me. When you pulled the ECU, did you disconnect the battery? Would this have reset your average without you doing it manually with the pushbutton?

Did you do anything else that would have reset the average without your intervention. (I mean you disconnected the battery besides pulling the ECU)

Maybe there's something else we don't know about.

Or else... I want the flash you got!  ;D

I did and had some interesting side effects when I re-attached it.  I'd have to search some to figure out what they were as it was awhile ago.  I believe that the vast majority did not disconnect the battery and I also believe that Steve told me it wasn't necessary, yet I did it anyway.  I don't think that anyone has had any issues with not disconnecting the battery.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: EZ on July 08, 2016, 12:42:40 pm
I did and had some interesting side effects when I re-attached it.  I'd have to search some to figure out what they were as it was awhile ago.  I believe that the vast majority did not disconnect the battery and I also believe that Steve told me it wasn't necessary, yet I did it anyway.  I don't think that anyone has had any issues with not disconnecting the battery.


I have had mine done twice, at SISF shop, and did not disconnect the battery. No negative impact at all.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Ron Dawg on July 08, 2016, 01:18:48 pm
Mine was done in Helen and the battery was not disconnected. Nothing odd resulted.

First start up cold spooled up to 1800 rpm for one minute and hasn't done it since, granted it's been 80-95 degrees every time I've started it up since Helen.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: smokin on July 23, 2016, 06:15:11 pm
Came across this interesting information in the Kawasaki workshop manual on GTR 1400 ABS and CONCOURS 14 ABS relating to power and torque outputs of the engines in each model.
The Australian GTR 1400 cranks out more power and torque than the US Concours 14 ABS ,which in turn cranks out more   power and torque than some European GTR 1400"s.
May be that why my stock standard 2014 GTR 1400 does not suffer from snatchy gear changes,lack of mid range to low down grunt and  has excellent fuel economy in not only ECO MODE but normal mode because of a different ECU strategy?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: gPink on July 23, 2016, 06:19:19 pm
rpm #s are different
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on July 23, 2016, 08:58:07 pm
I have all the base tunes, they are all so similar as to be no different in the real world. Plus, the rating systems are different, eu / au uses NM, and I think you must have pony power, not horsepower.  :shoot:  Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: smokin on July 23, 2016, 09:08:43 pm
You wish,IT is what it is.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on July 23, 2016, 09:59:34 pm
Came across this interesting information in the Kawasaki workshop manual on GTR 1400 ABS and CONCOURS 14 ABS relating to power and torque outputs of the engines in each model.
The Australian GTR 1400 cranks out more power and torque than the US Concours 14 ABS ,which in turn cranks out more   power and torque than some European GTR 1400"s.

I would say that is probably marketing and/or differences in unit measures and/or testing methodology.  I don't believe the engines are any different.

A marketing example is when I ran across a higher horsepower number on my G37S compared the the identical engine used in the 370Z, even on the identical model years.  When I started asking around, I was told by more than one person it is simply marketing.... Nissan couldn't have the Nissan-badged 370Z have a higher number than the  Infiniti.... so they just lopped off several hp in the specs of the 370Z when it really isn't any less.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Deziner on July 25, 2016, 08:04:36 am
It's possible that the difference is in tuning to meet emissions requirements in the different areas.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: smokin on July 25, 2016, 08:15:31 am
That makes sense,I known european emission standards are very high,not so much in Australia.
Don't know about the USA emission standards,but I am sure you guys do.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: fartymarty on July 25, 2016, 10:52:29 am
I don't believe the engines are any different.
I think that smokin was referring to the factory ECU flash being different for different parts of the world, not engine differences.

I have all the base tunes, they are all so similar as to be no different in the real world.   Steve

If it's not proprietary information, how did you acquire all of those? Have you already reflashed ECUs from each of those global market areas? If so, way to go Steve!   :thumbs:
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on July 25, 2016, 03:13:20 pm
Have you already reflashed ECUs from each of those global market areas? If so, way to go Steve!   :thumbs:

This. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on July 25, 2016, 04:40:38 pm
That makes sense,I known european emission standards are very high,not so much in Australia.
Don't know about the USA emission standards,but I am sure you guys do.

Not many places that I know of have higher emissions standards than Kaliforinia (CA).... and I believe the tuning (maps) is the same across the whole USA for the C14, regardless of CA or non-CA models (but they did have a charcoal canister on the CA model).  I think since 2015, all the C14's in the USA market now meet CA standards (but don't hold me to that, my memory for such things is poor... but it has been discussed here in a few threads..... somewhere).
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: smokin on July 25, 2016, 09:04:17 pm
I think that smokin was referring to the factory ECU flash being different for different parts of the world, not engine differences.

If it's not proprietary information, how did you acquire all of those? Have you already reflashed ECUs from each of those global market areas? If so, way to go Steve!   :thumbs:

That is correct fartymarty  ,all other specifications in the Genuine workshop manual show no difference in the mechanical aspect of the engine,i.e.,compression,valve timing,etc etc.
So that only leaves I guess exhaust restrictions,ECU programming in respect to the fuel type and octane I suspect.
One area I have noticed is that all the dyno results and there are a few show the Australian model in standard form putting out average of approx 138hp to the back wheel,and I understand that dynos give different readings but that is the average results.The some of the dyno machines are made in the USA.

So the data in the Genuine Kawasaki workshop difference in power output supports the dyno results in Australia versus the Steves USA dyno results
 of 128.80hp at the back wheel?


Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on July 25, 2016, 10:02:14 pm
Not all dyno's give the same readings. you really cannot race dyno charts, it just doesn't work that way unless you ran the bikes on the same dyno within a very close time frame.

  I have seen pics, posted elsewhere, of a bike on a kawasaki dyno after being assembled, and it showed 129.2 hp. This is really a  good average number.

  Remember that different methods of measuring produce different results. You can gain / lose 3-4 hp just switching the exact same run between  STD or SAE.

  Factor Pro dyno's generally measure about 15% less than dynojet dynos.

  The maps are the same internationally, for all intents. in fact the EU AU ECU used with the 02 sensors has the same PN as we have for the 2015 up US models.

  The one thing I do not know about is the catalytic converters. Do y'all have them down under?  Based on the same tuning, I would expect so. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: smokin on July 26, 2016, 10:33:48 am
Interesting information Steve regarding dyno"s.My GTR 1400 is a 2014 model,it has cat convertors but no 02 sensors.
Reading some of the information Steve that you have shared on this forum regarding ECU remapping and  after market exhaust affecting performance in terms of loss of power due to leaning of the fuel mixture has been very informative.
You obviously have spent a large amount of time and research into achieving your ECU programing,which I applaud you for. 
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on July 26, 2016, 12:39:29 pm
Interesting information Steve regarding dyno"s.My GTR 1400 is a 2014 model,it has cat convertors but no 02 sensors.
Reading some of the information Steve that you have shared on this forum regarding ECU remapping and  after market exhaust affecting performance in terms of loss of power due to leaning of the fuel mixture has been very informative.
You obviously have spent a large amount of time and research into achieving your ECU programing,which I applaud you for.

  there's no loss of power due to leaning, there's loss of power due to scavenging cylinder pressure, and it'l limited to lower rpm. I did get the power back +, but I had to get creative. Actually the full area p system with my flash gets +5HP at 4000, but you really need WOT to get the advantage. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: smokin on July 27, 2016, 08:28:46 am
  there's no loss of power due to leaning, there's loss of power due to scavenging cylinder pressure, and it'l limited to lower rpm. I did get the power back +, but I had to get creative. Actually the full area p system with my flash gets +5HP at 4000, but you really need WOT to get the advantage. Steve

So Steve in your experience is there an aftermarket slip on which does not create  a loss of power due to scavenging cylinder pressure?,or only minimal loss?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: fartymarty on July 27, 2016, 10:17:23 am
If I may redirect us once again, going back to the sheet from the service manual that smokin referenced: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=20462.0;attach=26546;image (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=20462.0;attach=26546;image)

Would it be safe to say that the model noted as WVTA and rated at only 106 HP@8000 rpm was just a special spec model that was submitted for vehicle type approval in GB or Europe, and there
are not people actually riding around on these low power C14s?  ???

If that's not the case, I can only imagine the smile on their face when Steve reflashed their ECU. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Biggrin-smiley.svg/120px-Biggrin-smiley.svg.png)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on July 27, 2016, 02:42:09 pm
So Steve in your experience is there an aftermarket slip on which does not create  a loss of power due to scavenging cylinder pressure?,or only minimal loss?

You're confusing terms. A slip on is not really an exhaust, it's just a muffler change, and has little to do with tuning. I'm talking about full exhaust changes, from the head back. Larger pipe diameter (the areaP is 9mm larger) no cats, changes to sequential / non sequential firing, 4 into one, tri-y crossovers, etc...etc these things make substantial changes in tuning needs. Steve
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on July 27, 2016, 06:31:53 pm
You're confusing terms. A slip on is not really an exhaust, it's just a muffler change,

Yep, I keep telling people that.  A "slip-on" is just a "muffler" or "silencer" with a short lead in pipe pre-attached.  It is not an "exhaust".  New "exhaust" means "exhaust system", which means replacing the header(s), the entire midpipe, and the muffler...... from out the engine block to out the tailpipe.


Quote
and has little to do with tuning.

Yep.  The stock Concours 1400 muffler might be big and heavy (and some think ugly, I do not), but it is not a higher source of restriction compared to the rest of the exhaust system.  Replacing just the muffler without replacing the headers and midpipe has almost no effect on power or tuning.

Quote
I'm talking about full exhaust changes, from the head back. Larger pipe diameter (the areaP is 9mm larger) no cats, changes to sequential / non sequential firing, 4 into one, tri-y crossovers, etc...etc these things make substantial changes in tuning needs. Steve

I will point out from previous threads that we are fairly sure that, like the stock muffler, the Concours 1400 catalytic converter is also not a source of restriction compared to the rest of the stock exhaust.  It is a one-way cat and flows easily.  If my memory serves correctly, someone did a lot of surgery to remove it and the dyno before/after was unchanged.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Conniesaki on July 27, 2016, 07:14:22 pm
Yep, I keep telling people that.  A "slip-on" is just a "muffler" or "silencer" with a short lead in pipe pre-attached.  It is not an "exhaust".  New "exhaust" means "exhaust system", which means replacing the header(s), the entire midpipe, and the muffler...... from out the engine block to out the tailpipe.

Come on now, "exhaust" is the stuff that comes out of the tail end of the muffler.




(regardless of what my signature may state)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: smokin on July 27, 2016, 08:06:39 pm
Ok,so  thats cleared up the situation with a full exhaust.So a slip on wont effect performance through the throttle range? Does not create hesitations at slower speed/throttle openings.No Minor hp power and torque increase across the throttle range? No change in fuel/air ratio mixture at the output end of the exhaust on a dyno?
Only less weight,more noise and more appealing to the eye?


Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: kzz1king on July 27, 2016, 08:46:48 pm
BUT, it sounds faster! ;D


Only less weight,more noise and more appealing to the eye?
[/quote]
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on July 27, 2016, 09:11:52 pm
Come on now, "exhaust" is the stuff that comes out of the tail end of the muffler.

:)

So a slip on wont effect performance through the throttle range? Does not create hesitations at slower speed/throttle openings.No Minor hp power and torque increase across the throttle range? No change in fuel/air ratio mixture at the output end of the exhaust on a dyno?
Only less weight,more noise and more appealing to the eye?

Pretty much that.  Yep.
There are cases where there can be a slight hp gain at top end, and cases where it can hurt hp slightly.... mostly cases where it makes no difference.  The point it is that a muffler-only replacement it isn't a real factor in performance unless you replace the rest of the exhaust system along with it (and then you have to get different maps to deal with the change in airflow, to gain real HP, and if you don't, performance can suffer greatly).

BUT, it sounds faster! ;D

Maybe... to me it usually just sounds louder which just makes it more annoying.  But it seems most people think louder = faster.  Can't wait for electric vehicles to completely wipe that all away...  Oh wait, people will probably be disappointed and add lots of artificial noise generators at that point!

Ironically, when you get the ECU reflashed to bork the flies, the side effect of that additional response/performance is that the intake noise is considerably louder.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: smokin on July 27, 2016, 09:51:05 pm
I was toying with the idea to fit a  Scorpion Performance Bike Exhaust Slip On Can Carbon Serket 7- slip on,and an ECU flash,but for an outlay of approx AUS$1400.00,{slip on $700.00 + Steve's flash to Australia after customs screw you over AUS$700.00
  the standard quiet fugly exhaust is looking better every day.As far as performance goes the GTR1400 has more than enough for the Old fella and with eco mode excellent performance/economy situation.

 

 




Email to friends Share on Facebook - opens in a new window or tab Share on Twitter - opens in a new window or tab Share 
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Conrad on July 28, 2016, 04:47:21 am
snip...

Yep.  The stock Concours 1400 muffler might be big and heavy (and some think ugly, I do not), but it is not a higher source of restriction compared to the rest of the exhaust system.  Replacing just the muffler without replacing the headers and midpipe has almost no effect on power or tuning.

Some folks like their gals slim while others like the 'plus sized models'.    ;)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on July 28, 2016, 05:35:16 am
I was toying with the idea to fit a  Scorpion Performance Bike Exhaust Slip On Can Carbon Serket 7- slip on,and an ECU flash,but for an outlay of approx AUS$1400.00,{slip on $700.00 + Steve's flash to Australia after customs screw you over AUS$700.00  the standard quiet fugly exhaust is looking better every day.  As far as performance goes the GTR1400 has more than enough for the Old fella and with eco mode excellent performance/economy situation.

As far as improvements to the C14, it is hard to find a better value than reflashing the ECU.  It is quick, easy, and foolproof.  It improves performance and responsiveness.  It makes the bike much more enjoyable to ride.  And in the case of Steve's flash- it improves mileage which will pay for the reflash in fuel savings over the life of the bike.... so it is like getting it free.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on July 28, 2016, 11:50:08 am
Ok,so  thats cleared up the situation with a full exhaust.So a slip on wont effect performance through the throttle range? Does not create hesitations at slower speed/throttle openings.No Minor hp power and torque increase across the throttle range? No change in fuel/air ratio mixture at the output end of the exhaust on a dyno?
Only less weight,more noise and more appealing to the eye?

That's what my carbon fiber Delkovec did.  Lighter, looks and sounds better.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: jeffmccracken on August 21, 2016, 11:13:32 pm
Well, I just got back from a 400 mile day on my first outing with Steve's reflash on a 2008 C14.
I had a PC installed with an economy map, Flies out and a Throttle Tamer prior to this so this is my most current basis for comparison.
I did put the files back in.

More time will tell BUT after today's ride (75mph slab, county road 65-70 mph, 50mph back roads) these are my initial impressions :

First thing I noticed: More noticeable torque at just about every speed, pulls stronger, torque is right there on tap.
Not an OMG! difference but noticeable enough to make a strong initial impression.

A reduction in off throttle jerkiness during slow/in-town riding.
If I just let the throttle slam shut it jerks a little but on normal throttle roll-off the old jerkiness is gone or very muted.

Jeff
I don't have to work so hard at being smooth.

Seems to run smoother, a pleasure to ride. The bike is a little more "electric motor-like". A well of torque that's ready to smoothly step out.

Better Gas Mileage. In my general usage 38 - 40 is the norm. I've had to work for 40, Over the road I might see 41 or a rare 42. But in general I've been resigned to 38-40.  I've lived the up and down world of watching the gas gauge and thinking that "this tank" is finally gonna give me good numbers, only to be disappointed once again. I guess I'd have to say that my biggest disappointment with the bike has been the mileage, even with a PC and an economy map.

Today in the mixed riding : 48.3 mpg. 

If I can repeat this fairly consistently I will finally have the bike I've wanted!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Ron Dawg on August 22, 2016, 05:24:15 am
Good, succinct write up. My results almost exactly. I think your mileage will stay the same. Mine went up consistently by 14-15% and I was in the 38-39 mpg range, too. Only problem with noticing the improvement is that you will adjust to it quickly and forget how it used to be, if your experience is like mine.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: kzz1king on August 22, 2016, 04:41:22 pm
Cool! Mine should hit 40 then! Or maybe go lower as I test the new found torque.
Wayne


Good, succinct write up. My results almost exactly. I think your mileage will stay the same. Mine went up consistently by 14-15% and I was in the 38-39 mpg range, too. Only problem with noticing the improvement is that you will adjust to it quickly and forget how it used to be, if your experience is like mine.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Rhino on August 26, 2016, 08:03:22 am
Wondering about backfiring. A full AreaP with Steve's AreaP flash, does it have a lot of decel backfiring? Will I need to do a pair valve ectomy?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Deziner on August 26, 2016, 08:09:51 am
Steve, have you actually tried your flash on a bike with the flies removed to see how it works?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: blue14 on August 26, 2016, 09:11:38 am
Wondering about backfiring. A full AreaP with Steve's AreaP flash, does it have a lot of decel backfiring? Will I need to do a pair valve ectomy?

Mine did not need this pairectomy.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: blue14 on August 26, 2016, 09:13:35 am
Steve, have you actually tried your flash on a bike with the flies removed to see how it works?

It wouldn't work well. Steve uses the flies to better control air intake.  A completely new flash would be required
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Rhino on August 26, 2016, 09:57:29 am
Mine did not need this pairectomy.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/8fen5LSZcHQ5O/giphy.gif)

Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: blue14 on August 26, 2016, 11:11:28 am
Before flashing mine backfired a bunch
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on August 26, 2016, 03:07:28 pm
Before flashing mine backfired a bunch

Remember that the stock EFI is kinda rich, speculatively to be on the "safe side" for engine longevity.   The ECU reflashes try to better lean it out... that is one reason for better mileage and more power.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on August 29, 2016, 11:45:02 am
I rode a couple BMW's this weekend.  We rode from Peoria to Gateway BMW in St Louis so my friend could get a 2011 K1300S with 1700 miles on it.  I rode my C14 with the SISF flash.

While we were killing time, I got a ride on an S1000XR. It had 29 miles on it and the rev limiter was 9k instead of 11k.  I rode it in Dynamic mode (full power).

Below 7k, it was nice but felt gutless.  Above 7k to 9k, it was "hang on tight!".  Rev limiter cut in nicely, not super harsh.  Ran it up and down a frontage road that was very commercial, had some hills and curves and straights.  Did it over and over, whack it and 2-3k and run it to redline.  Tried to wheely it but I think a traction control mode prevented wheelies.  Nice bike, tall, felt light compared to my C14, duh.  It was a bit buzzy also.  They quoted me just under 18k (can't remember if that was OTD or just the bike, I wasn't gonna buy it anyway.  C14 did damn good though, way more than a brand new, top of the food chain bike.

On the way home, I rode my buddy's new bike.  It's a Hayabusa/ZX14 competitor and the riding position is pretty crotch rockety.  Lots of power but also top end biased.  Very smooth. I was only limited by the fact that it had old tires on it, but I wrang its neck well.  The wheelbase is, well, think oil tanker?  Steered like a truck.  I'm quite sure it's stable but don't plan on snapping it around.  My C14 with the SISF had more low end (2-6k) but probably lost out a bit above there.  Not surprising, ithe K1300S weighs 550 lbs and has 175 hp at the crank.

The entire experience made me like my C14 even more.  We stopped at a 'stunter' bar in St Louis for lunch called Shady Jacks.  This is where ROC (Ride of the Century) is based out of, that's stunter lunacy.

Pics of the day (his old yellow 1999 R1100S he traded is shown, the new bike is red)
https://goo.gl/photos/SbhNo5L4fZJFUUwh9 (https://goo.gl/photos/SbhNo5L4fZJFUUwh9)

ROC lunacy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wWmGYULfgM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wWmGYULfgM)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: feelergaugephil on October 28, 2016, 11:18:29 pm
I searched through a lot of the 29 pages but couldn't find my query...
I'm selling my 09 and hopefully replacing it with a 2013/14 C14.
On the new one, Ill have K/N air filter and 2 Brothers slip on.....

Can I drill out the Cat (which I can see down the pipe when slip on is off) and if I do get most of that cat out, will that affect your programming ECU flash which I will send you....
Or leave that cat in (which must restrict these pipes somewhat)
Cheers, Phil.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on October 29, 2016, 12:31:30 am
I searched through a lot of the 29 pages but couldn't find my query...
I'm selling my 09 and hopefully replacing it with a 2013/14 C14.
On the new one, Ill have K/N air filter and 2 Brothers slip on.....

Can I drill out the Cat (which I can see down the pipe when slip on is off) and if I do get most of that cat out, will that affect your programming ECU flash which I will send you.... Or leave that cat in (which must restrict these pipes somewhat)

It has been answered in other threads, if not this one.  The one-way, flow-through CAT on the Concours is not restrictive in the stock system.  Removing it from the stock exhaust system doesn't meaningfully affect air flow.  You would gain almost nothing, and it won't affect the fuel injection programming at all.  Pretty much the same thing with replacing the muffler.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: feelergaugephil on October 29, 2016, 12:35:45 am
It has been answered in other threads, if not this one.  The one-way, flow-through CAT on the Concours is not restrictive in the stock system.  Removing it from the stock exhaust system doesn't meaningfully affect air flow.  You would gain almost nothing, and it won't affect the fuel injection programming at all.  Pretty much the same thing with replacing the muffler.

Thx Max,  been in forums about 2hrs now,  now I'm leaning to Area P full exhaust,,,, damn, I should close this browser..... lol.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on October 29, 2016, 06:08:19 am
Thx Max,  been in forums about 2hrs now,  now I'm leaning to Area P full exhaust,,,, damn, I should close this browser..... lol.

Yep, that is the popular way to actually make a difference in performance- different header, pipe, and muffler.  For that you will need a different flash (FI map) or to run a PC.  And yeah, there is a LOT to read on the forums!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on October 29, 2016, 08:51:42 am
Here's a video of a 30 to 120 roll on, bags and top box full, of a bike fitted with a yoshimura pipe and the Shoodaben Area p flash. This will give the same performance as the full area p pipe / flash. 30 to 120 in 6 seconds. Not bad.  steve

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvQ062KBX5A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvQ062KBX5A)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: srech77 on April 05, 2017, 09:24:29 am
Just installed the ECU with SISF "Evolution" flash on my 2012 C14 ... I won't do a super lengthy review because there is already a wealth of info backing up how worthwhile Steve's flashes are. I actually did my best to go into it being a little skeptical, just because I didn't want to preempt myself that it was the greatest thing in the world before I even had a chance to ride the bike. Just a couple key areas I was really impressed with: The 60-70 mph roll-on in the higher gears (5, and OD) it's really impressive the difference in throttle response and torque just cruising at highway speeds, and rolling on the throttle with this flash - with a stock ECU, it feels a bit "boggy" and piggish, and with the flash it just shoots forward like a rocket, very crisp and articulated ... and SMOOTH! When he says you can probably use a gear or two higher in most circumstances, he definitely means it! Even though this was the "Evolution" flash, and not the Area P, I think the power increase almost gets a bit understated, just because the goal of the evolution flash is to be more refined and smooth, which it is! But the power curve is so smooth, that you almost don't even realize how much harder the bike pulls through the rev range - truly incredible. The acceleration almost reminds me of the zx10r I used to have - and having that feeling on a fully-loaded sport touring bike is nuts!

I also noticed the bike didn't seem to be as "vibey" as before ... just overall very smooth, and at first glance I believe there was a 3-4 mpg increase in fuel economy cruising along at leisure. It's truly a "shoodaben" situation - feels like the bike is making the kind of power, and more easily, that it shoodaben making from the factory - doesn't have to struggle as hard to do the same amount of work as before. Also seems like the low rpms (under 4k) when I was idling slowly through my neighborhood were much smoother, didn't have any hiccups or surging of any sort that I sometimes noticed when I would get into that low range in 2nd or 3rd gear.

I'm very eager to get some more saddle time with the new flash, I was only able to go for a 20-30 mile ride yesterday to test it out. Anyway, thanks SISF for breathing life into that bike, you've made a believer out of me! Cheers -
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: saxaphool on April 12, 2017, 03:33:01 pm
Got my ECU back last Tuesday and got it hooked up. Bike started fine, so my wife hopped on and we rode about 30 miles to where she rides horses. I wasn't blown away like so many other people have been. I felt the like the bike responded better, but with the wifey, it was hard to tell. After dropping her off, I ran solo for a bit and started to feel what the hype was all about, but still wasn't blown away. Since last Tuesday, I've had the opportunity to ride several more times solo, and I've become a Believer! The bike pulls all the way through the throttle. TBH I think I was being too timid on the throttle at first...you really have to give it some gas, but when you do, better hold on. Great upgrade! Well worth the $$$. Thanks Steve....can't wait for Evo II!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: PlaynInPeoria on April 17, 2017, 01:44:27 pm
Haven't been on for a while, but I did recently upgrade from the decel flash (which I really liked, a big step up from the Guhl flash) to the Evo flash. 2 things strike me, bearing in mind that I don't know what the specific differences are between decel and evo:

1) Seems to have more oomph at low end, aka 2500 rpm. And it was never sluggish before with the decel flash.  I run around a gear higher just to feel the giddier low rpm acceleration.  That means it's quieter too, because I have a slip on that is not obnoxious but definitely gets louder as the rpm increases.

2) Very smooth and linear. I notice a very direct combination between the throttle used and the acceleration received.

I am pleased, made a very fun bike even more so.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on December 17, 2018, 05:15:53 pm
I was waiting for adequate data and information before posting.  Believe it or not, I have replaced Guhl's ECU Flash with Steve's (Shooudaben) Mountain Runner ECU Flash.  Have been using it for over two months now and over 1,000 miles.  I was hoping it would be longer before posting, but the riding season is well past and so the miles come slowly now :)

Keep in mind it has been many years since I have ridden with the stock ECU, so my observations are mostly to contrast and compare the two re-flashes.  The most striking difference with Shoodaben is the ease of shifting- both up and down, both clutchfull and clutchless.  I am not exactly sure the theory about how this is possible with a flash.  But it is real and impressive, and seems to hold through all gears (of course, it is MOST noticeable in lower gears) and most all situations.  I also believe the Shoodaben flash also has a better tolerance of lower RPM in higher gears.

Throttle control at lower RPM/speed is also easier.  I can verify it is probably not necessary to have a "Throttle Tamer" (G2 Street Tamer Throttle Tube) when you have the Shoodaben flash.... but since I do have one and I don't want to remove it (it is a nice metal tube that is so much nicer to use than the stock plastic one).  If you have both the Shoodaben flash AND the Throttle Tamer, the "taming" is a little overdone (something I feared a bit, but as it turns out, it isn't so overdone that it is a problem.... at least not for me, just takes a bit a practice).

Performance wise, I notice no difference.  But I didn't expect to, either.  Both are strong and fast and eliminate the horrible stock lag and weak spots; the huge difference over stock are present on both flashes.  I would characterize the Guhl as more twitchy and hyper, and the Shoodaben as more refined and reasonable.

I logged exact fuel mileage over many tanks, before and after the reflash.  I do not notice any statistically significant difference in fuel economy between the two.  Both are an improvement over stock by a few MPG.

Overall, I think the Shoodaben flash is much better, especially for the 99% of riding most of us do.  The bike is smoother, more predictable, more comfortable, and more enjoyable to ride.  I greatly enjoyed interacting with Steve.  He is professional, competent, prompt, more than willing to answer any questions, and cares about customer satisfaction very much.  He put a lot of time and refining effort into the product, and it shows.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: tbanzer on December 18, 2018, 09:52:00 am
Sorry if this has been answered but is this tune compatible if the secondary flies have been removed?
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: jaymohn on December 18, 2018, 10:42:53 am
You will want to put your flies back in for this tune.  I've talked to Steve several times and he will state that the flies are a big part of his tune. 
I had to put mine back in and it was not too difficult, just take your time and make sure to line them up properly so they don't hit.  There is a great posting on this if you search for it. 
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on December 18, 2018, 03:48:18 pm
Sorry if this has been answered but is this tune compatible if the secondary flies have been removed?

No.  You probably won't find a tune like that- the 80% gain is through manipulation of the flies, if those are gone, there isn't much use case anymore.  My suggestion, like others', is to put the flies back in, then flash it.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: tbanzer on December 19, 2018, 02:59:30 pm
No.  You probably won't find a tune like that- the 80% gain is through manipulation of the flies, if those are gone, there isn't much use case anymore.  My suggestion, like others', is to put the flies back in, then flash it.
For not much of a gain it doesn't make much sense for me to go through the time to put the flies in and pay for a tune.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on December 19, 2018, 03:27:18 pm
For not much of a gain it doesn't make much sense for me to go through the time to put the flies in and pay for a tune.

You won't gain much in actual, raw performance over just removing the flies.  But you WILL gain a lot in rideability/refinement.  If you were willing to spend the $ on a flash, and had the parts and inclination/time to reinstall the flies, I would say the rideability gains are worth it.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: tbanzer on December 20, 2018, 08:13:49 am
You won't gain much in actual, raw performance over just removing the flies.  But you WILL gain a lot in rideability/refinement.  If you were willing to spend the $ on a flash, and had the parts and inclination/time to reinstall the flies, I would say the rideability gains are worth it.
Ok Thanks.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: anolting15 on January 04, 2019, 11:37:53 am
I got the mountain runner flash on my 08 Connie, and man what a difference. Much smoother in between shifts and the power is just incredible. Kawasaki royally screwed up their tuning, but Steve did a hell of a job with his flash. Couldn't recommend this flash enough. I won't have another bike because of it.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on January 04, 2019, 03:18:59 pm
Kawasaki royally screwed up their tuning

Remember, Kawasaki *has* to screw it up some to meet various regulations.  Despite that,  they could have done a much better job, but I believe their hands are somewhat tied on a good portion of it.
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: MtnRider on January 04, 2019, 08:55:01 pm
Almost all the snow has melted off the roads so I came home at lunch today and got the bike out. Just put the ECU back in after getting it back from Steve with a Mountain Runner reflash.  Went back to work and then back home in the evening, about 45 minutes each way. WOW! I'm amazed that it is so much smoother. The power will require relearning throttle control in traffic. I kept coming up on peoples bumpers unexpectedly! And I keep running 5MPH faster than I'm used to. Steve states you'll find yourself riding 1 or 2 gears higher than your used to. 1st day "issue" for me was shifting about 1,000 RPM higher than normal as it was so smooth and quick for the same throttle input and then being significantly over the speed limit. (Hope Steve is providing "speeding ticket payment assistance" as part of the deal!) Shifts have smoothed out to an amazing degree. I've read the reports that say all this but it doesn't hit home until you experience it yourself.

GREAT product, Steve! Thank you!
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Thunderlizard on January 07, 2019, 02:31:57 pm
I purposely waited till I got some mileage on my bike before making this change, because I wanted to be able to really discern the difference from stock tune to Steve's  Mountain Runner. Having said that, coming from my 900 lb Bagger/Cruiser (Yamaha Stratoliner), this bike made me feel like I lost my touch? Throttle response was so inconsistent and fuel cut was so drastic that I couldn't smooth it out unless I really feathered the clutch!
Having said that, I'm happy to say "I've joined the ranks" of those with Steve's Flash!  Steve spent considerable time discussing my riding style and expectations, as well as the theory behind his refinements and the evolution of his flash profiles. Having spent quite a bit of time 3D mapping the Power Commander on my Strat, I have, at least, some idea of what Steve does with his flash maps, but mine was barely entry level compared to what he does to make these awesome machines run their best!
Results?  Holy Smokes! I could not be more pleased!  Gone is the twitchy low-end throttle, jerky shifts, and flat spots. I feel like I know how to ride again!  Even low-speed maneuvers are easier (a common complaint on this bike) because throttle control is so much better. The bike actually feels "lighter" at low speeds. Shifting up or down is smooth as "butta", torque is stronger across the entire band. And yes, I am a gear higher now in most conditions.  In the turns, now I can focus on body position and line, instead of trying to keep the bike settled. Overall the bike runs smoother and sounds better (IMO). I haven't put a ton of miles on it yet, but from what I've experienced since getting the ECU back, it's the best $$ I've spent on this bike, by far.  If I had to describe throttle action, I would say that resolution is improved in the low end - it tracks my input better, and has more torque in all rpm's, with no flat spots.  And when I cut the throttle, it rolls down much more smoothly, instead of the "throttle-chopt" jerkiness from before. Has me grinnin' from ear to ear!
Steve's professionalism and customer service are spot-on, and his passion for delivering a great product is evident.  I'm sure there are other good flashes out there that maximize HP or torque for a given RPM, but what impresses me the most about Steve's Mountain Flash is how much smoother and more refined the bike feels now. Makes this amazing ride that much better,
To all you folks who have not taken the plunge, I promise you will not be disappointed.   ;)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on January 07, 2019, 03:31:02 pm
I purposely waited till I got some mileage on my bike before making this change, because I wanted to be able to really discern the difference from stock tune

That is my advice I give to people, too.  It is hard to appreciate all the differences without being familiar with the stock behavior first.  I would say- put 1,000 miles on it, then flash that sucker and smile.

Quote
since getting the ECU back, it's the best $$ I've spent on this bike, by far.

I love reading the few complaints about cost of reflashing from the same people who would not blink an eye replacing the perfectly fine (but large) muffler for the same $ (or more), which does pretty much nothing but make it louder  :)  Although, I do rank safety mods higher (gotta be safe- lights, horn, crash gear) and ergonomic mods are pretty important, too (gotta be able to control the sucker- like reaching the ground or the bars without being in pain).
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Thunderlizard on January 11, 2019, 02:54:54 pm
Thanks Max!  I was trying to write a more professional review and recognize Steve's stellar efforts. But when it comes to my reaction to the flash, what I wanted to write was "WOOOO-HOOO! DANG!!! HOLY CRAP!!!! YESSSS!!!     ;D ;D ;D ;D"

It's a two-edged sword...
part of me says " if I can spend $12K on a motorcycle, what's another $375 to make it perform so well?"
but I'm, sure there are those that say "Since I spent $12K, I shouldn't have to spend another $375 to make it perform well!" and they'd be right. But it is what it is, so we work with what we've got. I just love the fact that there is such a performance improvement just waiting to be unleashed!  And to me, this is no different than a tire upgrade (the stock rubbers are not very good, IMHO) to really improve handling, which is next on the list.

(...anyone care to comment? Michelin Commander, or Pilot Road 4 or 5? Pirelli Angels? Metzler? And while we're at it, I've never worn out a front tire before the rear...until now...42 psi in both... :o)
Considerations are:
Traction (wet and dry)
Handling
Comfort
Wear
(not sure what's left?)
...in that order
All opinions are welcome... :D
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: maxtog on January 11, 2019, 04:45:08 pm
Thanks Max!  I was trying to write a more professional review and recognize Steve's stellar efforts. But when it comes to my reaction to the flash, what I wanted to write was "WOOOO-HOOO! DANG!!! HOLY CRAP!!!! YESSSS!!!     ;D ;D ;D ;D"


:)

Quote
But it is what it is, so we work with what we've got.


Exactly.  The reality is that I am VERY happy we have reflashing options that fix it, and on such an expensive bike, it really shouldn't be a big deal to spend it.  Now, back before we HAD the reflash option, we had good reason to be angry (of course, most of us wouldn't have fully appreciated what we were missing).  All we could do is rip out the flies, which is terribly inelegant, far less effective, reduces traction control ability and smoothness, does nothing for fuel delivery, nothing for shifting, nothing for throttle snatch, is time consuming, and more risky (like losing the screws down the manifold).

Quote
(...anyone care to comment? Michelin Commander, or Pilot Road 4 or 5? Pirelli Angels? Metzler? And while we're at it, [...]


Really, you should ask that in one of the MANY tire threads :)

Try this:  http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22166 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22166)
Title: Re: ECU flashing now available
Post by: Thunderlizard on January 13, 2019, 06:55:43 pm
Quote
Really, you should ask that in one of the MANY tire threads :)

...sorry...got lazy... ;)