Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Haroldo_PSF on July 24, 2017, 06:15:01 pm

Title: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: Haroldo_PSF on July 24, 2017, 06:15:01 pm
Hi there. It's been a while  ;D
I thought I'd share the very first time, ever, that my beloved 08 connie has taken a  dump on me (well, it did it one other time during a valve adjust, but that was me doing it, and the dump was mostly on my part).

I bought her new in 08, and just clocked 95K miles. For over 10 years myself and friends go for a yearly 1500 miles ride of northern California best roads. This year, I had the bright idea of bragging to the others about how my Concours is the only motorcycle in the group which has NEVER had any issues or caused any aggravation during our 10 years of doing these trips.
Well, of course I had to say that, didn't I.
In the second day during our 5 day tour, the bike started false shifting. I would go into false neutral at least once an hour. Then the speedometer stopped working, and so did the odo.
Side fact: it as 110 degrees at times, and we were riding...how do we say...'spirited'.

Then, as I was coming out of a corner, I lost all resistance in the clutch lever. We stopped in the side of the road (in 105 degrees), and lo and hehold, there was a river right there! So, we all got undressed and took a dip. By the time we returned to the bikes, I had resistance back in the clutch lever, but as I started riding, I could not shift up from 2nd gear. I did not try to shift down, because I was 100 miles away from the hotel, and did not want to be eitehr stuck in 1st or loose gears completely, so I rode 100 miles in 2nd.
To cut story short, wife came and trailered me the next day (she was not happy, likely due to the 6 hour drive to my location).

As I have experience wrenching on the bike and knowing the consequences, I took it to the dealer.It turns out some spring came loose in the clutch and mangled some stuff in there, and the everything needs to be replaced (plates, spring, etc). As far as the speed, they say the speed sensor needs replacing.

The total damage is $1900.

So, learn from be boys. No matter how reliable the bike seems to be, never, ever, brag about it. Your bragging will eventually cause accelerated wear and tear which would not have happened otherwise.

Has anyone here ever had issues with the clutch like this?

As a side note, for years now, I've had this intermittent problem where I would wake up in the morning, specially cold days, and I would have no resistance in the clutch lever. After warming the engine a bit, resistance would come back. I asked the dealer, and they couldn't figure out, telling me in the end it would be easier to let something that is a little broken break fully so it would be easier to diagnose.
I then installed braided lines 2 years (maybe 3) ago. Since then, the lack of resistance on the lever went away.
Now, the clutch blew up. I wonder if I had this issue all along for all these years and it finally 'fully' broke now, after being partially broken all this time?

Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: gPink on July 24, 2017, 06:27:56 pm
Is this THE Haroldo.....the legend? Wow good to hear from you. We've heard whispers but thought you were just a myth. Sorry about the clutch. Are you going to document the repair here where we can follow along. I heard the valve adjust was epic but all that was lost a few years back.  ;D
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 24, 2017, 08:16:12 pm
 :hail:   I'm moved to tears you're back!  Now about your problem...I think it must be the star spring you're talking about and we've had reports here lately of a higher mileage bike where that happened....but $1900?
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: B.D.F. on July 25, 2017, 12:49:39 am
Hey Heroldo, how you doing (other than with the bike stuff of course)? Great to 'see' you although too bad in is under such circumstances.

As to the bike, honestly I can not see pumping almost $2K in an '08 for any reason. The bike is approaching no value, and what value it has would be tough to recover. A member here just picked up a nice '08 for $3K or $3.5K if I remember and frankly, the owner was lucky that it sold at all. So in the end, I question the actual value and sale-ability of any early C-14 with 100K miles on it. And there are much newer, pretty nice bikes out there for not much more money.

Now as far as that diagnosis, I am skeptical of that too; it seems far too coincidental that you are having serious clutch problems, which are mechanical and on the right side of the bike's crankcase, and have had a Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) fail at the same moment, and that is on the left side of the crankcase, attached to the bevel output gear. Makes me go 'hmmmmmm'.

And the clutch having no resistance at all sounds more like a hydraulic issue than a clutch ass'y issue. If that is correct, the hydraulic side of the clutch system will require attention and repair as well as the right, mechanical side of the clutch.

$1,900 also seems quite high for an entire new clutch. Unless there are other problems which require taking the crankcase (and transmission housing) apart, and that is a huge amount of work starting with removing the engine.

All of the above said, I think swapping out the engine may prove less costly. Used engines are available although that too is a 'can of worms' unless you are absolutely certain about the condition of the engine, such as something you bought from a friend as a damaged, non- repairable bike that had a known good engine and a guarantee from the person selling it.

So I would think long and hard (yep, knew what I was typing but as this is Haroldo's return, no witty remarks.... and yes, Haroldo re- appearing is that important) about making any repairs at all to the bike.

Again, great to 'see' you! Best of luck with this problem although we (the entire forum and you) have worked through pesky, persistent problems far worse than this before. Then again, maybe it is the same we who make the problem..... legendary?   ??? ;D

Brian

Hi there. It's been a while  ;D
I thought I'd share the very first time, ever, that my beloved 08 connie has taken a  dump on me (well, it did it one other time during a valve adjust, but that was me doing it, and the dump was mostly on my part).

I bought her new in 08, and just clocked 95K miles. For over 10 years myself and friends go for a yearly 1500 miles ride of northern California best roads. This year, I had the bright idea of bragging to the others about how my Concours is the only motorcycle in the group which has NEVER had any issues or caused any aggravation during our 10 years of doing these trips.
Well, of course I had to say that, didn't I.
In the second day during our 5 day tour, the bike started false shifting. I would go into false neutral at least once an hour. Then the speedometer stopped working, and so did the odo.
Side fact: it as 110 degrees at times, and we were riding...how do we say...'spirited'.

Then, as I was coming out of a corner, I lost all resistance in the clutch lever. We stopped in the side of the road (in 105 degrees), and lo and hehold, there was a river right there! So, we all got undressed and took a dip. By the time we returned to the bikes, I had resistance back in the clutch lever, but as I started riding, I could not shift up from 2nd gear. I did not try to shift down, because I was 100 miles away from the hotel, and did not want to be eitehr stuck in 1st or loose gears completely, so I rode 100 miles in 2nd.
To cut story short, wife came and trailered me the next day (she was not happy, likely due to the 6 hour drive to my location).

As I have experience wrenching on the bike and knowing the consequences, I took it to the dealer.It turns out some spring came loose in the clutch and mangled some stuff in there, and the everything needs to be replaced (plates, spring, etc). As far as the speed, they say the speed sensor needs replacing.

The total damage is $1900.

So, learn from be boys. No matter how reliable the bike seems to be, never, ever, brag about it. Your bragging will eventually cause accelerated wear and tear which would not have happened otherwise.

Has anyone here ever had issues with the clutch like this?

As a side note, for years now, I've had this intermittent problem where I would wake up in the morning, specially cold days, and I would have no resistance in the clutch lever. After warming the engine a bit, resistance would come back. I asked the dealer, and they couldn't figure out, telling me in the end it would be easier to let something that is a little broken break fully so it would be easier to diagnose.
I then installed braided lines 2 years (maybe 3) ago. Since then, the lack of resistance on the lever went away.
Now, the clutch blew up. I wonder if I had this issue all along for all these years and it finally 'fully' broke now, after being partially broken all this time?
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: B.D.F. on July 25, 2017, 12:55:12 am
Not rumors, not myths: Kirby and I were there and everything you heard is true. Including the parts about the unicorns (yes, plural!) and the rips in space- time.

Of course in a case like this, it is always wise to suspect a 'false' or copy- cat Haraldo. But read and  re-read the post and look at the symptoms, all over the bike and seemingly unrelated. The cranky wide. The readiness to tackle this project. In my opinion, as they say in the movies: "This is not a drill. We are witnessing a nuclear event!".

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Actually, I am just glad to see him back and hope he stays around a while! Fasten your seatbelt Gary, there could be turbulence ahead....  ;D

Brian

Is this THE Haroldo.....the legend? Wow good to hear from you. We've heard whispers but thought you were just a myth. Sorry about the clutch. Are you going to document the repair here where we can follow along. I heard the valve adjust was epic but all that was lost a few years back.  ;D
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: Conrad on July 25, 2017, 04:19:15 am
Great to 'see' you again Haroldo!
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: Haroldo_PSF on July 25, 2017, 11:43:42 am
That's funny! How did I become a "legend" again? Come on, there has to have been something else to top the charts since, no? I'm shocked that 8 or 9 years later and the story still lives!

I know that this is a lot of money on this bike, but I considering the alternative....If I didn't fix it, I would have to sell it broken (for very little) or part it, which I have no time for.
The truth is that I love this thing. With almost 100K on it, I can ride the bejeezus out of it, the bike is second nature now. Plus, it is fully fitted with Ohlins front and back, PCV, etc etc etc (I don't even remember the list of upgrades, but I know its long).
Then, if I did sell it instead of fixing, I would have to spend some money on a replacement.
I am betting 2K in the possibility of it lasting another 50K miles when I'm ready to buy the KTM super duke GT.
Conrad
I'm glad the same old crew is still here! VirginiaJim, Brian, is Bob still here?

As for the last few years, so much **** happened which kept me distracted...Let's see, in 2012 I rode to Prudoe Bay, AK. 6 months later I crashed at 55mph and shattered my ankle (surgery and titanium hardware fixed it), stopped riding for a few months to make the wife happy, then started again. In 2013 went back to grad school in the evenings, and for the next 4 years up until this last May I literally had no life.  Now I'm finally getting back to my hobbies  ;D

I'm attaching the work order for info on pricing (opps, had to remove, it has my info in it. Will edit and repost)
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: fartymarty on July 25, 2017, 11:51:45 am
Sorry Haroldo, that I didn't miss you, mostly because I never had any interaction with you.
Regardless, I'm glad you're back and sorry that your clutch problems are the impetus to your return.
In an endeavor to get to know you, I've researched some of you previous posts and in your last one before the hiatus you said:

The two year in the planning 10000 miles ride to the arctic and back is in a month!

update:
...Let's see, in 2012 I rode to Prudoe Bay, AK.

So how did that trip go?
(not looking for "fine" or "great" we want ---> details  {fm said, hoping that his pushiness doesn't drive you away again after such a long absence})
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 25, 2017, 02:11:30 pm

I'm glad the same old crew is still here! VirginiaJim, Brian, is Bob still here?


If it's the same Bob we're thinking of then alas while we knew him well, he decided on a different pasture to play in.
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: jimmymac on July 25, 2017, 02:21:29 pm
You sure can't buy another one for that price. And with labor and full pop on factory parts, it doesn't surprise me. I can't believe a  clutch would last that long.
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: B.D.F. on July 25, 2017, 02:38:20 pm
Yeah, that is what Julius Caesar would ask if we dug him up too.... you guys still remember me? Nothing has happened in 2,000 years that tops my shenanigans of so long ago?

 ;) ;D

Well, it sounds like you have a pretty logical plan. And you are right about the farkling.... I am not looking forward to farkling' up another one myself. The only thing I would perhaps mention would be the VSS, both because you will want to figure it into the price of repairs but still, it bothers me that it stopped working as the clutch mangled itself to death. As I remember, a VSS is something like $70 or $80 and it goes in with one screw and one wiring harness connector. You can swap it in less than 5 minutes and no seals or gaskets required as it seals with an O- ring.

Anyway, as always, the very best of luck getting it back in shape and riding again. We will help if we can of course.

Brian

That's funny! How did I become a "legend" again? Come on, there has to have been something else to top the charts since, no? I'm shocked that 8 or 9 years later and the story still lives!

I know that this is a lot of money on this bike, but I considering the alternative....If I didn't fix it, I would have to sell it broken (for very little) or part it, which I have no time for.
The truth is that I love this thing. With almost 100K on it, I can ride the bejeezus out of it, the bike is second nature now. Plus, it is fully fitted with Ohlins front and back, PCV, etc etc etc (I don't even remember the list of upgrades, but I know its long).
Then, if I did sell it instead of fixing, I would have to spend some money on a replacement.
I am betting 2K in the possibility of it lasting another 50K miles when I'm ready to buy the KTM super duke GT.
Conrad
I'm glad the same old crew is still here! VirginiaJim, Brian, is Bob still here?

As for the last few years, so much **** happened which kept me distracted...Let's see, in 2012 I rode to Prudoe Bay, AK. 6 months later I crashed at 55mph and shattered my ankle (surgery and titanium hardware fixed it), stopped riding for a few months to make the wife happy, then started again. In 2013 went back to grad school in the evenings, and for the next 4 years up until this last May I literally had no life.  Now I'm finally getting back to my hobbies  ;D

I'm attaching the work order for info on pricing (opps, had to remove, it has my info in it. Will edit and repost)
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: maxtog on July 25, 2017, 04:09:27 pm
There are a lot of factors to consider.  Assuming you were ready to lay out 2 grand to fix a 10 year old 95K bike, it is worth considering buying a newer used one with much lower miles, especially if you can part-out the old one for 1K.  You could then transfer most of the farkles you want (seat, windscreen, risers are easy...  muffler not that hard.... suspension, that would be harder.)   But you could end up with something worth more and with far more years of service available.  Quickly found a 2010 with 25K miles, carbon muffler, AND HELIBARS HORIZONS for $5,200!  https://motorcycles.autotrader.com/motorcycles/2010/kawasaki/concours_14/200474591

To me, 10 pretty much trouble-free years on a bike with 95K miles on is a great run, no matter how I look at it, even if it meant going out and just buying a brand new 2017 Concours :)
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: jimmymac on July 26, 2017, 05:00:17 am
There are a lot of factors to consider.  Assuming you were ready to lay out 2 grand to fix a 10 year old 95K bike, it is worth considering buying a newer used one with much lower miles, especially if you can part-out the old one for 1K.  You could then transfer most of the farkles you want (seat, windscreen, risers are easy...  muffler not that hard.... suspension, that would be harder.)   But you could end up with something worth more and with far more years of service available.  Quickly found a 2010 with 25K miles, carbon muffler, AND HELIBARS HORIZONS for $5,200!  https://motorcycles.autotrader.com/motorcycles/2010/kawasaki/concours_14/200474591

To me, 10 pretty much trouble-free years on a bike with 95K miles on is a great run, no matter how I look at it, even if it meant going out and just buying a brand new 2017 Concours :)
But then think about junking a motorcycle because the clutch gave out!  I know it's all about the price, but com'on man!
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: Tree on July 26, 2017, 05:24:22 am
I can see that there is an emotional component to this dilemma.  Logging 10's of thousands of miles will have lots of memories associated with the motorcycle.  I still regret selling my old VW van many years ago...
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: B.D.F. on July 26, 2017, 05:37:54 am
I was going to post again in this thread, decided against it, then saw this post so....

Yep, emotional decision, as well as a very personal one. Each person has to do what he / she thinks is the best way forward. And in the end, I think we all make lousy choices now and then but some good ones too; the problematic part is that we just do not know which we are making most of the time when we are actually doing it.  ???

In this case, Haroldo will make his decision (maybe he already has?) and forge ahead. What I do know is that the proper attitude and tenacity will rise up and carry the day beyond which decision was made and Haroldo has plenty of both of those traits. Frankly, it has been a pleasure in the past to kind of accompany Haroldo on some of his projects and hopefully he will share some more, starting with this one, going forward. Perhaps some of us have been of some have been helpful to him as well, and can continue to be so. And trust me, Haroldo will go forward, and I mean that in the very best and most positive way imaginable.

So let us know how the C-14 part of your life is going Haroldo and maybe we can sort of work together a bit, even long- distance on the project.

And on a side- note, while it is OFFTOPIC and none of my (our?) business, did you get your advanced degree and in what if I may ask. And certainly you can just ignore that question if it is too personal or you would rather not converse about that here.... I understand perfectly and take no offense.

Brian

I can see that there is an emotional component to this dilemma.  Logging 10's of thousands of miles will have lots of memories associated with the motorcycle.  I still regret selling my old VW van many years ago...
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: Haroldo_PSF on July 26, 2017, 04:23:45 pm
I was going to post again in this thread, decided against it, then saw this post so....

Yep, emotional decision, as well as a very personal one. Each person has to do what he / she thinks is the best way forward. And in the end, I think we all make lousy choices now and then but some good ones too; the problematic part is that we just do not know which we are making most of the time when we are actually doing it.  ???

In this case, Haroldo will make his decision (maybe he already has?) and forge ahead. What I do know is that the proper attitude and tenacity will rise up and carry the day beyond which decision was made and Haroldo has plenty of both of those traits. Frankly, it has been a pleasure in the past to kind of accompany Haroldo on some of his projects and hopefully he will share some more, starting with this one, going forward. Perhaps some of us have been of some have been helpful to him as well, and can continue to be so. And trust me, Haroldo will go forward, and I mean that in the very best and most positive way imaginable.

So let us know how the C-14 part of your life is going Haroldo and maybe we can sort of work together a bit, even long- distance on the project.

And on a side- note, while it is OFFTOPIC and none of my (our?) business, did you get your advanced degree and in what if I may ask. And certainly you can just ignore that question if it is too personal or you would rather not converse about that here.... I understand perfectly and take no offense.

Brian


Sure thing.
First thing, I decided to fix the old lady. In the end, if she completely blows up 6 months from now, I won't cry the 1.9K I just spent. It will be OK either way. The added factor to this decision is that I am planning to own the KTM Super Duke GT in the future. The wife already knows about it. If I get another bike, even if it is an old used one, that would be it, as it will be considered "my new bike". So, in an effort to keep the dream alive, and considering how much I love the Concours and how confident I am riding it, it makes sense to me to drop the cash. It is more of a strategic play than a lucrative one at the moment. It does have a purpose.

About the degree. I got a masters in computer engineering from San Jose State University (my BS is in EE from Purdue). I just graduated this May about a month after I turned 40 :D
People ask me if it was worth it, if I'll make more money, etc etc. Well, at this point in my career, with 15 years of experience, an added pedigree on its own doesn't do much. But I have surely gotten a tech refresh, and added some skills I did not have in my toolbox before. One huge outcome of the program is that it sparked my interest in autonomous driving, the new Silicon Valley fever industry. So, after 15 years of medical device history, I left a cushy safe job at a large medical device company, took a paycut,  and joined a small autonomous driving start up. The other day while testing my software I was driving a car at 70mph from my laptop in the backseat. You can't have more fun than that at work, you just can't :)
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: maxtog on July 26, 2017, 05:49:59 pm

Sure thing.
First thing, I decided to fix the old lady. In the end, if she completely blows up 6 months from now, I won't cry the 1.9K I just spent. It will be OK either way. The added factor to this decision is that I am planning to own the KTM Super Duke GT in the future. The wife already knows about it. If I get another bike, even if it is an old used one, that would be it, as it will be considered "my new bike". So, in an effort to keep the dream alive, and considering how much I love the Concours and how confident I am riding it, it makes sense to me to drop the cash. It is more of a strategic play than a lucrative one at the moment. It does have a purpose.

Makes sense to me!  Thanks for sharing


Quote
About the degree. I got a masters in computer engineering from San Jose State University (my BS is in EE from Purdue). I just graduated this May about a month after I turned 40 :D
People ask me if it was worth it, if I'll make more money, etc etc. Well, at this point in my career, with 15 years of experience, an added pedigree on its own doesn't do much. But I have surely gotten a tech refresh, and added some skills I did not have in my toolbox before. One huge outcome of the program is that it sparked my interest in autonomous driving, the new Silicon Valley fever industry. So, after 15 years of medical device history, I left a cushy safe job at a large medical device company, took a paycut,  and joined a small autonomous driving start up. The other day while testing my software I was driving a car at 70mph from my laptop in the backseat. You can't have more fun than that at work, you just can't :)

Congrats!  I have a BS in CS,  and similarly have a high-level position and 28 years experience in the field (medical).  I envy your drive and think what you are doing is neat and wish you the best of luck.  Money ain't everything, you only live once, and that is a very interesting field to move into.
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: B.D.F. on July 26, 2017, 07:05:35 pm
Great to hear Haroldo (on the job). Congrats and the best of luck with both the bike and career.

Brian


Sure thing.
First thing, I decided to fix the old lady. In the end, if she completely blows up 6 months from now, I won't cry the 1.9K I just spent. It will be OK either way. The added factor to this decision is that I am planning to own the KTM Super Duke GT in the future. The wife already knows about it. If I get another bike, even if it is an old used one, that would be it, as it will be considered "my new bike". So, in an effort to keep the dream alive, and considering how much I love the Concours and how confident I am riding it, it makes sense to me to drop the cash. It is more of a strategic play than a lucrative one at the moment. It does have a purpose.

About the degree. I got a masters in computer engineering from San Jose State University (my BS is in EE from Purdue). I just graduated this May about a month after I turned 40 :D
People ask me if it was worth it, if I'll make more money, etc etc. Well, at this point in my career, with 15 years of experience, an added pedigree on its own doesn't do much. But I have surely gotten a tech refresh, and added some skills I did not have in my toolbox before. One huge outcome of the program is that it sparked my interest in autonomous driving, the new Silicon Valley fever industry. So, after 15 years of medical device history, I left a cushy safe job at a large medical device company, took a paycut,  and joined a small autonomous driving start up. The other day while testing my software I was driving a car at 70mph from my laptop in the backseat. You can't have more fun than that at work, you just can't :)
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: Conrad on July 27, 2017, 03:57:46 am

Sure thing.
First thing, I decided to fix the old lady. In the end, if she completely blows up 6 months from now, I won't cry the 1.9K I just spent. It will be OK either way. The added factor to this decision is that I am planning to own the KTM Super Duke GT in the future. The wife already knows about it. If I get another bike, even if it is an old used one, that would be it, as it will be considered "my new bike". So, in an effort to keep the dream alive, and considering how much I love the Concours and how confident I am riding it, it makes sense to me to drop the cash. It is more of a strategic play than a lucrative one at the moment. It does have a purpose.

About the degree. I got a masters in computer engineering from San Jose State University (my BS is in EE from Purdue). I just graduated this May about a month after I turned 40 :D
People ask me if it was worth it, if I'll make more money, etc etc. Well, at this point in my career, with 15 years of experience, an added pedigree on its own doesn't do much. But I have surely gotten a tech refresh, and added some skills I did not have in my toolbox before. One huge outcome of the program is that it sparked my interest in autonomous driving, the new Silicon Valley fever industry. So, after 15 years of medical device history, I left a cushy safe job at a large medical device company, took a paycut,  and joined a small autonomous driving start up. The other day while testing my software I was driving a car at 70mph from my laptop in the backseat. You can't have more fun than that at work, you just can't :)

Congrats!

You and my oldest son are the same age and seem to have the same education. I'd have to disagree on your last statement. Replace the car with a drone and he's blowing **** up remotely. Now that's fun! He leads a team working for a defense contractor and he can't talk about anything he does except in general terms.
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: Haroldo_PSF on August 07, 2017, 10:38:45 am
So, picked up the bike Saturday. It drove home OK, noticed a little slippage passing 7K rpm, but didn't stress much on it.
Then, this morning coming to work, the EXACT same thing happened. First, speedometer stopped working, then clutch blew up again (no resistance in the lever, red light on the dash board, etc). Limped home in 2nd gear and grabbed the other bike to come to work.

Well, obvious the dealer fixed the symptom, but not the actual problem. They are closed today, so I have to fume until tomorrow before I go there and try not to be a total dick right of the get go.

In these situations, are they any legal grounds to protect me? After spending 2K for repairs and having the exact same issue reappear immediately, there has to be something to protect the consumer, no?

On the technical side, something is broken causing the speedo and clutch to break. What could it be?
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: gPink on August 07, 2017, 10:59:43 am
What did the dealer say was broken and did you get the old parts?
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: Haroldo_PSF on August 07, 2017, 11:28:31 am
What did the dealer say was broken and did you get the old parts?

The diagnosis was for a new clutch assy and speed sensor. I believe the parts were indeed replaced, as the bike operated normally for 10 miles.They did not diagnose the problem, only a symptom.
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: jimmymac on August 07, 2017, 11:37:50 am
It's on the shop, if they told you they would fix it.  Unless you only OKed part of the repair.
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too)
Post by: B.D.F. on August 07, 2017, 12:12:11 pm
Now THIS is a Haroldo story!   Sorry, I just could not resist.... :-)

Remember back when I said something was suspect that the vehicle speed sensor (VSS), located on the output bevel gear, failed at the same time as the clutch? Color me suspicious some more.

The VSS should read anytime the bike is moving, blown up clutch or not, engine in the chassis or not.

Couple the two problems at one time and I begin to suspect something else entirely, such as a bad bevel gearset.

No matter what it is, clearly this issue is going to need more fixin'. I just hope for your sake that the dealer will fix the problem now regardless of what it really turns out to be for the money already charged. It they claim that there are 'other things wrong', the bill could get significantly higher.

As to the legal grounds, it depends on how it plays out: if it is something else entirely, such as the bevel gears in the shaft drive, or the transmission or something, the dealer is likely to claim what they fixed needed repair and they charged you a fair and correct amount, and performed the work per the quote. They may now claim this other damage was either hidden, or not detectable when they did the original work, and that work was done 'in good faith' in that it was not only the problem but the only problem. If this turns out to be the case, they may give you another price for the other work, then discount it to 'share the burden' of the initial mistake or extra, hidden damage(s). Then again, they may just fix the bike for the already- paid sum. ?? It really does depend on what is wrong with it at this point but again, you, they or some other party has to diagnose it fully before coming to any conclusion I think. Or at least that is what I would insist on at this point.

As always Haroldo, the very best of luck with this current situation.

Brian

So, picked up the bike Saturday. It drove home OK, noticed a little slippage passing 7K rpm, but didn't stress much on it.
Then, this morning coming to work, the EXACT same thing happened. First, speedometer stopped working, then clutch blew up again (no resistance in the lever, red light on the dash board, etc). Limped home in 2nd gear and grabbed the other bike to come to work.

Well, obvious the dealer fixed the symptom, but not the actual problem. They are closed today, so I have to fume until tomorrow before I go there and try not to be a total dick right of the get go.

In these situations, are they any legal grounds to protect me? After spending 2K for repairs and having the exact same issue reappear immediately, there has to be something to protect the consumer, no?

On the technical side, something is broken causing the speedo and clutch to break. What could it be?
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: Daytona_Mike on August 08, 2017, 03:22:09 am
Interesting thread. I will be watching to see how this how this repair ends.  Are they going to fix it for the $1900  that you already paid or are they going to charge you more money  or do you have the option to get your $1900 back  and call it a day.   I would pick option #3  and  maybe just buy a used motor from ebay for around $600 and go another 95,000 miles with it.

I am with Brian on this one.. something is very strange. Is the clutch problem a hydraulic master/slave issue? A destroyed or bad  clutch  doesn't fix itself when you park it for a while?  Did you get a chance to look at the replaced parts?  I am thinking  maybe a broken star spring and the broken pieces took out the clutch pack and basket?  I am curious  as what exactly was replaced and worked on for the $1900 that didn't do much of anything. 
 
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: Haroldo_PSF on August 08, 2017, 11:52:36 am
Because this is a "Haroldo thread", as Brian points out, I need to keep the fun going.  ;D
So, as I was limping to the stealership this morning in 2 and 3rd gear, about to get off the freeway, the bike went CLUNK CLUNK CLUNK....
I am not sure where it was coming from, engine or final drive...But something finally blew up. Whatever was causing the clutch and speed sensor to act up finally has manifested itself.
So, I pushed the concours for 1.5 miles. Yes, 650lbs (no bags, empty tank thank god), pushed, for 1.5 miles.
I work out regularly, and I'm in pretty good shape. But let me tell you, there is nothing like pushing this thing for 1.5 miles. There is no position which makes it comfortable or enjoyable.
A motor cop stopped to chat mid way on an RT1200. His condolences were refreshing,

As I got to the stealership huffing and puffing, I laid it on the kid at the front desk, and immediately apologized, as he is completely innocent. The service manager is out until next week, so I will have to wait until then. Their misdiagnose ended up damaging the original replaced parts and then some. It blew up less than 20 miles after having spent $2011 dollars to repair it (with tax).
So, I'll wait until I hear back. If they don;t take the burden of their own incompetence, I'll try small claims. The silver lining is that this whole thing is paving the way a new baby in the garage early next year.  hmmm.....
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: B.D.F. on August 08, 2017, 01:31:27 pm
Really sorry to hear this Haroldo, all facets of it. Frankly I cannot think of any sage words, any diaganosis from afar or even the premise that it is 'not that bad' because, well, it sounds pretty bad.

And because this is so unpleasant, I am going to give you a pass and let the whole 'There is no position which makes it comfortable or enjoyable.' thingy go without making any of my usual references to sex with a porcupine, diarrhea in a space craft or anything other, could- be- amusing- in- another- context- remarks.

Again, and as always, the best of luck moving forward with this issue and do let us know how it turns out.

Brian

Because this is a "Haroldo thread", as Brian points out, I need to keep the fun going.  ;D
So, as I was limping to the stealership this morning in 2 and 3rd gear, about to get off the freeway, the bike went CLUNK CLUNK CLUNK....
I am not sure where it was coming from, engine or final drive...But something finally blew up. Whatever was causing the clutch and speed sensor to act up finally has manifested itself.
So, I pushed the concours for 1.5 miles. Yes, 650lbs (no bags, empty tank thank god), pushed, for 1.5 miles.
I work out regularly, and I'm in pretty good shape. But let me tell you, there is nothing like pushing this thing for 1.5 miles. There is no position which makes it comfortable or enjoyable.
A motor cop stopped to chat mid way on an RT1200. His condolences were refreshing,

As I got to the stealership huffing and puffing, I laid it on the kid at the front desk, and immediately apologized, as he is completely innocent. The service manager is out until next week, so I will have to wait until then. Their misdiagnose ended up damaging the original replaced parts and then some. It blew up less than 20 miles after having spent $2011 dollars to repair it (with tax).
So, I'll wait until I hear back. If they don;t take the burden of their own incompetence, I'll try small claims. The silver lining is that this whole thing is paving the way a new baby in the garage early next year.  hmmm.....
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: lather on August 08, 2017, 04:25:58 pm
This episode  is as unreal as my 09 valve munch two months back. I had to push mine too, but only a few yards onto a good  samaritan's trailer.
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: B.D.F. on August 23, 2017, 01:04:36 pm
So where are we with this Haroldo? You must have more info. by now, your last post was on the the 8th. What is going on with the bike, the dealer, and Haroldo? ?? ??

Really trying to think happy thoughts and still hoping this works out for you and the only real loss is riding time (other than your original situation, which you already paid for of course).

Brian
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: jimmymac on August 24, 2017, 08:52:52 am
Crickets...
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: B.D.F. on August 24, 2017, 09:53:56 am
Yeah, this is not like the Haroldo of old though, he used to get right back with the next installment.

Brian

Crickets...
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: Haroldo_PSF on August 30, 2017, 04:09:33 pm
Yeah, this is not like the Haroldo of old though, he used to get right back with the next installment.

Brian

 Just picked up the bike today. Yes, this has indeed been going until TODAY ;D

Soooo, where did we leave off?.... Ok, after I pushed the bike back to the stealer (for 1.5 miles), with no position that would make it comfortable (Brian, enjoy), they called me back 3 days later because "it was easier to show me than tell me on the phone".
So, when I get there, the left side of the bike is taken apart, mainly that casing where the speedo attached to. There are some bevel gears in there which were mangled and worn out, thus the broken speed sensor.
It turns out, that in addition to the clutch being f-ed, those bevel gears were also broken. In fact, I believe one thing might have contributed to the other...
Anyway, the part alone was $1800, plus gaskets and labor, I would be looking at 2.5K on top of the 2K I had just spent.
I proceeded to ask some angry questions to the tech and the manager, like how come you didn't check hti sbevel gear the first time the speedo broke? They showed me how the troubleshoot it, and it made sense. They hook up a tester to the connector, and thats it. After a small inquisition, I was convinced the technician did the best he could the first time around, and I really had two bombs in my hands.
As this onversation took place, the manager found the bevel gear case on eBay for $100! Someone just happened to be parting out their 08 and the part looked to be in mint condish....
Soooooo, just today and $700 later (eBay part, more dealer parts like gaskets etc, and 4 hours of labor), I picked her up.
She rides great so far....

In summary, I spent $2.7K to fix an 08 with 95K miles on it.

Here is my follow up question:

The last valve check performed on the bike was at 40K miles. The first adjustment and check were done by myself (don't ask) at 13K miles, and valves were grossely out of spec. On the second check at 40K, they were in spec (dealer did it). So, now I'm at 95k, wondering if valve clearances tend to change with age of this bike or not. Given that they were badly out of spec at 13K and then in spec at 40K, I speculate things settled in there and clearance changes are minimal now.

What is the data on this? I'm sure there are many riders with 08s with triple digit odometer readings here... How have your valves behaved along the life of the engine>?

Since this is shim under bucket, does it make sense to assume that valves clearances tend to grow with time (loose clearances) instead of tight, which would be the lesser evil if indeed clearances were actually off?
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: jimmymac on August 30, 2017, 05:17:53 pm
Valves are always in spec, as long as someone else checks them. Just ride it. 8)
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: maxtog on August 30, 2017, 05:34:53 pm
The last valve check performed on the bike was at 40K miles. The first adjustment and check were done by myself (don't ask) at 13K miles, and valves were grossely out of spec. On the second check at 40K, they were in spec (dealer did it). So, now I'm at 95k, wondering if valve clearances tend to change with age of this bike or not. Given that they were badly out of spec at 13K and then in spec at 40K, I speculate things settled in there and clearance changes are minimal now.

I tend to try and follow that and it is just all over the map (pun intended).  From those who rarely have anything out of spec to those with significant adjustments.  Those that had nothing at lower mileage and then those that have significant adjustment later.  Nothing scientific, so it seems almost random.  The only trend I see seems to be that most people have little to no adjustment at the [USA] recommended interval, tending to reinforce the strangeness of the USA mileage recommendation compared to the interval given on the identical bike sold in the "rest-of-the-world."   After that, I don't see any trend.

I agree with the logic of your last sentence.  But who knows?
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: B.D.F. on August 30, 2017, 08:50:34 pm
Well, I guess it sounds like you are happy, and of course that works for me if it works for you...... but: I would call foul on the dealer's diagnosis. In fact, I DID call foul on their diagnosis in one of the very first responses in this thread- it just did not make sense that those two problems just occurred at the same time and we not related. Further, the only way I believe a set of bad bevel gears could damage the VSS would be to have mechanically damaged it, and regardless of what they say about the test, any human worth his / her salt should have seen the physical damage on the part when it was removed (and it had to be removed to be replaced) and said or done some further investigating (you can see one of the bevel gears through the VSS hole with nothing but a flashlight and a Mark I eyeball). So again, I would dump some level of miss- diagnosis on their doorstep because their mechanic pulled a physically damaged part from the bike, apparently did not [notice, care, concern himself / herself about the damage] deal with the fact that it was damage, and 'whistled a happy tune' while putting in a new VSS into the bad bevel gear ass'y. So Brian says that their diagnostic skills, both logical as well as physical, are faulty and they bear some of the burden of this current situation because they should have found the gear damage in the original assessment. It may not be fraud but it is certainly grossly unprofessional and unacceptable for a service they sell, and you purchased. All IMO of course.

The valves. Now this is a touchy subject with you Haroldo so......  ;) ;D :o   First, which way do they wear: well, both ways, tighter and less tight, all at once. Any wear between the cam lobe and the follower (the 'bucket' in this bike) will result in the clearance increasing. But any wear between the valve face and the valve seat (in the head) will result in the clearance decreasing. Now both sets of these parts wear, and it is impossible to predict which is 'winning', if either one. If the engine is used hard (yep, this is where I would stick 'it'), the valve seats usually wear considerably faster than the cam and follower, resulting in decreasing clearance. But in more casual use, it cannot be predicted in any way that I know of.

Mine were all in spec. except for one at 25K miles and I left them; not worth pulling the cams for 0.001" adjustment IMO, on my bike. At 50K miles, they were all back in spec. though some at the outside limits (which is STILL in spec.; I do not subscribe to 'in the middle of the range' is better, w/in spec. is w/in spec., and the manufacturer knew what they were spec'ing when they wrote the spec.'s). Bike is now at 99K miles and the plan was to check the lash again but that has not happened due to to other circumstances so..... no knowledge of where they are.

The only way to know is to measure them, there are no other methods that even indicate which way they may be out of spec. IMO. Obviously my opinion would be to check the lash at 100K miles but that is of course your choice. Not much danger of having too much clearance but if the clearance drops to zero while the bike is running, you run the risk of burning a valve and valve seat, which whill require removing the head and repairing it or replacing it (the entire head and valves). This is not likely IMO but absolutely possible. ??

There is little data available for valve lash at 100K miles on these engines (C-14 or ZX 14), and certainly not enough to form any rational opinion. So, no data.

Brian

Just picked up the bike today. Yes, this has indeed been going until TODAY ;D

Soooo, where did we leave off?.... Ok, after I pushed the bike back to the stealer (for 1.5 miles), with no position that would make it comfortable (Brian, enjoy), they called me back 3 days later because "it was easier to show me than tell me on the phone".
So, when I get there, the left side of the bike is taken apart, mainly that casing where the speedo attached to. There are some bevel gears in there which were mangled and worn out, thus the broken speed sensor.
It turns out, that in addition to the clutch being f-ed, those bevel gears were also broken. In fact, I believe one thing might have contributed to the other...
Anyway, the part alone was $1800, plus gaskets and labor, I would be looking at 2.5K on top of the 2K I had just spent.
I proceeded to ask some angry questions to the tech and the manager, like how come you didn't check hti sbevel gear the first time the speedo broke? They showed me how the troubleshoot it, and it made sense. They hook up a tester to the connector, and thats it. After a small inquisition, I was convinced the technician did the best he could the first time around, and I really had two bombs in my hands.
As this onversation took place, the manager found the bevel gear case on eBay for $100! Someone just happened to be parting out their 08 and the part looked to be in mint condish....
Soooooo, just today and $700 later (eBay part, more dealer parts like gaskets etc, and 4 hours of labor), I picked her up.
She rides great so far....

In summary, I spent $2.7K to fix an 08 with 95K miles on it.

Here is my follow up question:

The last valve check performed on the bike was at 40K miles. The first adjustment and check were done by myself (don't ask) at 13K miles, and valves were grossely out of spec. On the second check at 40K, they were in spec (dealer did it). So, now I'm at 95k, wondering if valve clearances tend to change with age of this bike or not. Given that they were badly out of spec at 13K and then in spec at 40K, I speculate things settled in there and clearance changes are minimal now.

What is the data on this? I'm sure there are many riders with 08s with triple digit odometer readings here... How have your valves behaved along the life of the engine>?

Since this is shim under bucket, does it make sense to assume that valves clearances tend to grow with time (loose clearances) instead of tight, which would be the lesser evil if indeed clearances were actually off?
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - CONCLUSION
Post by: Haroldo_PSF on March 29, 2019, 03:12:10 pm
Thought I'd conclude this thread. Interesting, when I posted this in 2017, I mentioned future plans to own the super duke GT. Here is the conclusion :)
 Last year we went to our 5 day nor cal ride as we do every year. The Concours with now 98K on the odo worked like a swiss clock. After all the repairs, it was running perfectly. However, at some point during the trip, I started to notice the front brakes were feeling squishy. I continued the ride, which was epic by the way. On the last day, about 50 miles from home, returning to bay area traffic, the brakes were feeling much worse. I was touching the lever to the grip to actuate the brake. I did have steel braided lines, but this was still happening. As I took a freeway exit ramp, I felt the brakes were almost gone.
What I did next was a very stupid thing. I polled over on the left side shoulder of the freeway off ramp, if you can imagine that. I was just freaked out about having no front brakes, and decided to stop on a legal, but incredibly dangerous spot. I was tired and not thinking clearly, of course. As I  am still on the bike, on the shoulder, feeling out the brakes, BAM!. I don't remember between getting hit, and waking up on the ground, but some mother$#@%er tried to overtake a semi, went onto the shoulder, and nailed me from behind. I had a bad concussion and a fractured sacrum. The Concours was completely gone.
So, that concludes exactly 10 years of ownership and excitement that I had with that bike.
I made a full recovery quickly (within 2 months or so), and tomorrow I pick up a new 2019 KTM Super Duke GT (the white and orange one), which is today what the Concours was in 2008 when it was released, the best SPORT tourer in the world (arguably the best road bike in general). Anyway, hoping to have as much fun on the KTM as I had on the Concours.

Cheers!
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: PH14 on March 29, 2019, 05:51:45 pm
Wow! So sorry to hear, but I am glad you are healed and back in the game. Enjoy the new bike!
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: katata1100 on March 29, 2019, 07:17:50 pm
Junking a motorcycle because it has a bad clutch sounds like shooting your dog because he has a broken leg.
“ This is my concours14. There are others like it, but this one is mine...”
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: STC14JIM on March 30, 2019, 07:54:55 am
Well, that worked out good !! ( Kidding, kidding ).  Good to hear you made a fairly quick recovery and I hope you sued the you-know-what out of the cager that ran into you.

But spending $1,900 on the repair with the hope of getting 50K more miles out of the bike makes sense to me.  Then sell it after the 50K miles for $1,000.  A net cost of only $500.  With the bad clutch, it probably wasn't worth much more than that.
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: kzz1king on March 30, 2019, 08:20:02 am
 The bike and rider were rear ended . Fixing the clutch when the brakes were fading isn't going to help.

Congrates on the new bike . I rode one and if I could afford It would have one in the garage.
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - AGAIN
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 31, 2019, 04:47:28 pm
Glad you're ok, Harold, and still riding.
Title: Re: My clutch blew up ( and the speedometer too) - CONCLUSION
Post by: B.D.F. on March 31, 2019, 05:24:15 pm
Wow Haroldo, always a great story from you. Not joking about the injuries of course, and certainly glad to hear you healed from the accident. But the overall story is..... is...... 'Haroldoinium'.   ;) ;) ;D :o

Congrats on the new bike though, I am sure you will have a great time with it and maybe an adventure or two worth posting. By all means, stop by here occasionally at least and let us know how you are doing as well as how the new ride is working out for you.

Great to hear from you even with the bad news in the middle- it sounds like it has ended well.

Brian

Thought I'd conclude this thread. Interesting, when I posted this in 2017, I mentioned future plans to own the super duke GT. Here is the conclusion :)
 Last year we went to our 5 day nor cal ride as we do every year. The Concours with now 98K on the odo worked like a swiss clock. After all the repairs, it was running perfectly. However, at some point during the trip, I started to notice the front brakes were feeling squishy. I continued the ride, which was epic by the way. On the last day, about 50 miles from home, returning to bay area traffic, the brakes were feeling much worse. I was touching the lever to the grip to actuate the brake. I did have steel braided lines, but this was still happening. As I took a freeway exit ramp, I felt the brakes were almost gone.
What I did next was a very stupid thing. I polled over on the left side shoulder of the freeway off ramp, if you can imagine that. I was just freaked out about having no front brakes, and decided to stop on a legal, but incredibly dangerous spot. I was tired and not thinking clearly, of course. As I  am still on the bike, on the shoulder, feeling out the brakes, BAM!. I don't remember between getting hit, and waking up on the ground, but some mother$#@%er tried to overtake a semi, went onto the shoulder, and nailed me from behind. I had a bad concussion and a fractured sacrum. The Concours was completely gone.
So, that concludes exactly 10 years of ownership and excitement that I had with that bike.
I made a full recovery quickly (within 2 months or so), and tomorrow I pick up a new 2019 KTM Super Duke GT (the white and orange one), which is today what the Concours was in 2008 when it was released, the best SPORT tourer in the world (arguably the best road bike in general). Anyway, hoping to have as much fun on the KTM as I had on the Concours.

Cheers!