Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: blue14 on December 02, 2017, 01:38:34 pm

Title: The Future of th C14
Post by: blue14 on December 02, 2017, 01:38:34 pm
Just returned from the NY motorcycle show where I was able to speak with Bill Jenkins.  Bill is a VP at Kawasaki USA.  He had some interesting things to say about the various possibe futures for the Concours 14.

First initially sales were around 4000 per year, today that has dropped to around 1000 per year.  Kawi was happy with 4000, not so much at 1000.

They are aware that the Concours has fallen behind the competition without features like cruise control and touchscreens and flyby wire and electronic suspension.  These items are costing sales.  They also see the adventure bike fad costing them sales of a sport touring bike.

The new H2 SX is simply a hopped up Ninja 1000, much less space for rider, passenger and luggage than the Concours.  Kaw has spent a pantload of money developing the supercharged engine platform and are actively seeking areas to broaden its use.  Sporttouring is one.

At the same time they are not ruling out a Gen 3 OR IS IT 4 Concours 14.

Another strong possiblity is replacing the 1352 motor with the supercharged 1000 into the existing Concours chassis as near as possible.  The goal is to retain the roominess of the present Concours but expand the use  of the supercarged 1000.

For me the H2SX doesnt cut it.  A H2SX with simply a shaft drive wont do it either.

If we all like the Concours14 for its size, performance and abiliy to bring things along on the ride, we need to help Kawasaki to reach the decision of a new Gen 3 or a Concours SX.  Three different Kawi guys said emails/snail mails from current owner sent to Kawasaki USA carry more weight than any other with the likely exception of money.

So if you guys like your bike and would like to see an improved version of the same thing send in those cards and letters and emails.  The next bike is coming in one year, two at most.  Feel free to pass this on to the other forum, the more they hear from us the more they will feel they might get back to 4000 units per year.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: gPink on December 02, 2017, 02:46:55 pm
Thanks for the insights, Blue. I would not buy a supercharged or turbo bike for sport/touring duties and I'm way past pure sport use. Just because they built it doesn't make it the best tool for the job. The way nobody trusts dealers to change the oil let alone do a valve lash check I would have to wonder about required maintenance. Even though I'm probably no longer in the target market I would like the model to continue because it's a solid proven platform.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: blue14 on December 02, 2017, 03:15:16 pm
Thanks for the insights, Blue. I would not buy a supercharged or turbo bike for sport/touring duties and I'm way past pure sport use. Just because they built it doesn't make it the best tool for the job. The way nobody trusts dealers to change the oil let alone do a valve lash check I would have to wonder about required maintenance. Even though I'm probably no longer in the target market I would like the model to continue because it's a solid proven platform.

Then that is what you tell them.  The 1352 or 1444 is still a possibility. ;) ;) :thumbs:
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: B.D.F. on December 02, 2017, 03:19:41 pm
This is exactly what I have long thought, and feared. With sales numbers like that, I think it quite likely they will just drop the bike, and effectively, the Kawasaki presence in sport tourers.

I think the exact same thing happened with Honda and the 1300, although LEO sales were driving them until they found that nasty bout of instability at modest speeds. But in the end, I suspect that entire line also to disappear.

That will leave only Yamaha in the 'main line' sport tourer market. Yes there is BMW, Triumph and a few others, or at least 'close enough' models, but they are all too expensive to really compete directly with the C-14 or FJR.

Brian

Just returned from the NY motorcycle show where I was able to speak with Bill Jenkins.  Bill is a VP at Kawasaki USA.  He had some interesting things to say about the various possibe futures for the Concours 14.

First initially sales were around 4000 per year, today that has dropped to around 1000 per year.  Kawi was happy with 4000, not so much at 1000.

They are aware that the Concours has fallen behind the competition without features like cruise control and touchscreens and flyby wire and electronic suspension.  These items are costing sales.  They also see the adventure bike fad costing them sales of a sport touring bike.

The new H2 SX is simply a hopped up Ninja 1000, much less space for rider, passenger and luggage than the Concours.  Kaw has spent a pantload of money developing the supercharged engine platform and are actively seeking areas to broaden its use.  Sporttouring is one.

At the same time they are not ruling out a Gen 3 OR IS IT 4 Concours 14.

Another strong possiblity is replacing the 1352 motor with the supercharged 1000 into the existing Concours chassis as near as possible.  The goal is to retain the roominess of the present Concours but expand the use  of the supercarged 1000.

For me the H2SX doesnt cut it.  A H2SX with simply a shaft drive wont do it either.

If we all like the Concours14 for its size, performance and abiliy to bring things along on the ride, we need to help Kawasaki to reach the decision of a new Gen 3 or a Concours SX.  Three different Kawi guys said emails/snail mails from current owner sent to Kawasaki USA carry more weight than any other with the likely exception of money.

So if you guys like your bike and would like to see an improved version of the same thing send in those cards and letters and emails.  The next bike is coming in one year, two at most.  Feel free to pass this on to the other forum, the more they hear from us the more they will feel they might get back to 4000 units per year.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: olie on December 02, 2017, 04:36:51 pm
I see no future for the present Concours /GTR 1400. It was canned in Europe in 2016, no updates to meet Euro4.

Cars are already on Euro5/6.... January 2021 Euro5 will kick in for bikes too. see link below

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/performance-bikes-uk/20170405/281513635992095 (https://www.pressreader.com/uk/performance-bikes-uk/20170405/281513635992095)

The Supercharger is the technique of choice by Kawasaki to meet the Euro5/6... similar with what cars are doing with turbos. The future is here now... just get used to ;)
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: B.D.F. on December 02, 2017, 05:02:47 pm
Just went looking around at other bikes that might be suitable as a substitute for a C-14 for me. And the best thing I can come up with is a modified ZX 14. ?? Not all that desirable but the difference in price between one of those and, say, a BMW 1600 would more than buy enough farkles to comfy it up and make it a capable long- distance bike. Coupled with the bigger engine and the same positive points of the overall chassis, I think that is the way I would go.

Just hafta' figure out how to jam KiPass onto one o' dem.....

Brian
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: gPink on December 02, 2017, 06:35:37 pm
I see no future for the present Concours /GTR 1400. It was canned in Europe in 2016, no updates to meet Euro4.

Cars are already on Euro5/6.... January 2021 Euro5 will kick in for bikes too. see link below

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/performance-bikes-uk/20170405/281513635992095 (https://www.pressreader.com/uk/performance-bikes-uk/20170405/281513635992095)

The Supercharger is the technique of choice by Kawasaki to meet the Euro5/6... similar with what cars are doing with turbos. The future is here now... just get used to ;)

Screw the future...I don't have to get used to it. They'll pry my flip phone from my dead cold fingers.

...and get off my lawn... :rotflmao:







Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: maxtog on December 02, 2017, 08:18:19 pm
I see no future for the present Concours /GTR 1400. It was canned in Europe in 2016, no updates to meet Euro4.

The sister bike of the Concours 14, the ZX-14 was modified slightly and meetings Euro4 and is still being sold in the EU.  It is very easy.  In fact, the gen 2.5 C-14 already has a O2 sensor, they just have to upgrade the CAT and done.  The research and parts are already available.  So Euro4 isn't the reason.

Quote
The Supercharger is the technique of choice by Kawasaki to meet the Euro5/6... similar with what cars are doing with turbos. The future is here now... just get used to ;)

If they placed the 200hp supercharged 1 liter into the Concours, and kept everything else the same but upgraded the lighting and added cruise, I would absolutely buy it (although I want SILVER!)
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: maxtog on December 02, 2017, 08:20:02 pm
Just went looking around at other bikes that might be suitable as a substitute for a C-14 for me. And the best thing I can come up with is a modified ZX 14. ??

Wouldn't do it for me at all.  There is no way it could be made comfortable- bars wrong, pegs REALLY wrong, no electric windscreen, etc, etc; and I am way beyond chain drive.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: B.D.F. on December 03, 2017, 01:19:58 am
All of that is fixable, in fact, easily fixable, including the chain drive.

But the part that is not negotiable, the engine, chassis and major components, are and excellent, known quantity with a huge aftermarket support system. And if the C-14 goes away, and let's be honest, at 1,000 units a year I believe that is highly likely, there just are not many replacements out there. The C-14 was as big and bulky as I wanted, maybe even 50 lbs. overweight, so that tosses the BMW 1600 out the window. The Feejer is definitely in the slot, but I have not really cared for past models mostly due to vibration; nothing terrible, just more buzz than I want to sit on for a lot of hours at a time. The Triumph is under- powered, overpriced and does not have either the dealer or aftermarket support I would like to see. So we are running pretty low on options. Of course I did not even bother to mention entire lines of bikes I would not consider: cruisers, any 'V' or 90 degree twin and so forth, anything that even resembles sitting in a gynecologist's "chair" (legs forward and spread, spine back, you know, all ready for Dr. Coldfinger).

My wife and I, and it is mostly me, are too big for a liter bike; they are just not long enough (Easy Girls!).

The only other thing might be something really different such as a Honda 1200F, but the last rev. of that is downright fugly IMO. But the underlying bike has potential, although it is rather expensive and farkles are even more so so that is not really likely to happen.

Sport tourers and full- tourers are a tough market. Over the years, a few have come and gone, and some other bikes claim to slide into that slot that are really not (read: all the big V-twins on the planet in their 'I have a top box' mode). And some were really interesting and had a future but because they have never sold well, there has never been and drive to flesh out models and really allow them to mature, with a very few exceptions such as the FJR (still working on that) and the Goldwing (a fantastic bike, it just does not 'float my boat').

I will be sorry to see the C-14 go, if it does, but in a way, it is already gone: very sluggish sales, very low used prices and a very soft market and worst of all, a very soft new market with two and more year old 'brand new' bikes being sold by dealers. That is just not tolerable and the whole thing seems to be getting worse, not better. So there are three choices as I see it: 1) the model hangs around another year or two and fades away, 2) the model is discontinued after or even during this next model year (both options are really about the same) or 3) Kawasaki makes a serious, concerted effort to make the bike much more salable while at the same time holding the sale price down low enough to be reasonable compared with the FJR.

Brian

Wouldn't do it for me at all.  There is no way it could be made comfortable- bars wrong, pegs REALLY wrong, no electric windscreen, etc, etc; and I am way beyond chain drive.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: Justcliff on December 03, 2017, 07:32:52 am
I would hate more than anything to see the Concours disappear. The sport touring market is just to small to support sales though I'm afraid. The bike market as a whole seems to be lagging IMO. The C14 is a lot of bang for the buck no doubt.

I'll most likely be shopping for one next year simply due my high mileage. I prefer the Gen 1 myself so I'll be torn as to whether buy new or used. Not to mention used ones are plentiful & cheap! Either way I'll differently buy another C14.

Cliff
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: blue14 on December 03, 2017, 10:36:21 am
So far there seems to be a fatalistic response.  If Kawi saw that sales could be 2000 a year that might be enough to decide to upgrade the 1352.

Respectfully, it might be better to contact Kawi USA instead of discussing what would be a suitable alternative.

I can tell you that Bill Jenkins likes the rider position and comfort of our preent Concours as opposed to the Ninja 1000 H2SX.  Some more gentle push from existing owners might do it.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: B.D.F. on December 03, 2017, 10:58:23 am
You may be right but honestly, I do not think a 10,000 / year letter- writing campaign is worth much of anything in view of the sales numbers. What good does it do any manufacturer to be contacted and told what a great product they make, only to have them sit on the dealer's floors? Put simply: words are great but dollars convey a LOT more weight.

What would be most interesting would be to see the sales of Yamaha FJR's by comparison. That would yield a very good picture of how much more market Kawasaki could take I think.

Hey, I was planning on buying on in the next couple of years myself, assuming they did not mangle it into something too much different than it is now. So it is not my hope that they drop the line, merely my thought after reading your information. At some point, fatalistic is merely realistic.

Brian

So far there seems to be a fatalistic response.  If Kawi saw that sales could be 2000 a year that might be enough to decide to upgrade the 1352.

Respectfully, it might be better to contact Kawi USA instead of discussing what would be a suitable alternative.

I can tell you that Bill Jenkins likes the rider position and comfort of our preent Concours as opposed to the Ninja 1000 H2SX.  Some more gentle push from existing owners might do it.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: maxtog on December 03, 2017, 12:52:34 pm
I can tell you that Bill Jenkins likes the rider position and comfort of our preent Concours as opposed to the Ninja 1000 H2SX.

That's because the H2SX isnt' a real sport touring bike [IMHO].

You may be right but honestly, I do not think a 10,000 / year letter- writing campaign is worth much of anything in view of the sales numbers.

I have to agree with that.  I do think feedback is important, and we certainly SHOULD let Kawasaki know what we are thinking and desire.  But sales numbers will win every time.  Of course, I would love to know how sales compare to the FJR- if the FJR is increasing at the expense of the Concours, then that indicates Kawasaki is dropping the ball by not keeping up.  Releasing the H2SX is great from a power standpoint, and a lose in every single other category for this particular market segment- reliability, warranty, value, comfort, convenience, ride, storage, room, range, style, etc.  Honestly, I would never turn away more power, but the C14 is a beast (especially when flashed) and I really don't need any more power.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: xsv on December 03, 2017, 01:22:50 pm


That will leave only Yamaha in the 'main line' sport tourer market. Yes there is BMW, Triumph and a few others, or at least 'close enough' models, but they are all too expensive to really compete directly with the C-14 or FJR.

Brian

I really like my Triumph Trophy SE, but you can strike that from the list.  With the elimination of the Trophy, Triumph has no sport touring offerings.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: blue14 on December 03, 2017, 01:25:52 pm
That's because the H2SX isnt' a real sport touring bike [IMHO].

I have to agree with that.  I do think feedback is important, and we certainly SHOULD let Kawasaki know what we are thinking and desire.  But sales numbers will win every time.  Of course, I would love to know how sales compare to the FJR- if the FJR is increasing at the expense of the Concours, then that indicates Kawasaki is dropping the ball by not keeping up.  Releasing the H2SX is great from a power standpoint, and a lose in every single other category for this particular market segment- reliability, warranty, value, comfort, convenience, ride, storage, room, range, style, etc.  Honestly, I would never turn away more power, but the C14 is a beast (especially when flashed) and I really don't need any more power.

Max you are correct our feedback is hugely important to them.  Remember I ws asking them what might be coming for the Concours NOT how to help influence their  marketing decisions.  They currently do not sell an upgraded C14 and they are aware that the things it lacks are hurting sales.  How else can we hope to urge them to build what we would like othr than asking them to in writing?????

Sending them emails costs you nothing and might get you the Concours you all have asked for here.  Its up to all of you.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: fartymarty on December 03, 2017, 01:39:46 pm
First initially sales were around 4000 per year, today that has dropped to around 1000 per year.  Kawi was happy with 4000, not so much at 1000.

Are these world wide or U.S.A. numbers? They seem high (well, to me they do) for USA only.  If world wide numbers, then they will take a significant dip
without Europe.

Still at 1000 per year, they could get rid of a lot of parts inventory just by assembling them. As warrantys start expiring the need for new parts will diminish significantly
as those seeking repair will turn increasingly to the ebay/used parts market just to keep the repair prices inline with the decreasing value of their older bikes. No?

I don't see myself buying a new bike (unless before then, my current C14 suffers significant damage, and I don't.) before 2021-2022 after my warranty runs out. Then I will
be old enough that I may be ready for a Goldwing with a car tire. However I do hope that they decide to keep competing with Yamaha, and that the younger generations decide
that they want to cut back on all the finger swiping lifestyle and just go ride somewhere. With self driving vehicles increasing, I worry more for all of motorcycling than I do for just the Sport-Touring segment.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: olie on December 03, 2017, 01:57:37 pm
You may be right but honestly, I do not think a 10,000 / year letter- writing campaign is worth much of anything in view of the sales numbers. What good does it do any manufacturer to be contacted and told what a great product they make, only to have them sit on the dealer's floors? Put simply: words are great but dollars convey a LOT more weight.

What would be most interesting would be to see the sales of Yamaha FJR's by comparison. That would yield a very good picture of how much more market Kawasaki could take I think.

Hey, I was planning on buying on in the next couple of years myself, assuming they did not mangle it into something too much different than it is now. So it is not my hope that they drop the line, merely my thought after reading your information. At some point, fatalistic is merely realistic.

Brian

the Trophy is gone for a while in Europe, non Euro4 compliant... I have my doubts Kawasaki will make the ZX14 to comply with Euro 5/6, leading to the H2SX as its replacement. Same for Yamaha if it will make the old FJR Euro5/6 compliant unless they have something NEW in the pipeline. If not, only BMW RT and K16... one will have to pay the piper.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: maxtog on December 03, 2017, 02:56:43 pm
the Trophy is gone for a while in Europe, non Euro4 compliant... I have my doubts Kawasaki will make the ZX14 to comply with Euro 5/6, leading to the H2SX as its replacement.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.  Euro-4 was easy for the ZX (and WOULD be for the Concours) but I am not sure that Euro-5 would be doable.... although, admittedly, I don't know much about Euro-5.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: mikeyw64 on December 03, 2017, 03:17:52 pm
and not forgetting Euro 6 ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards



Hmm wonder if Euro 7 will make all electric vehicles compulsory ?
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: B.D.F. on December 03, 2017, 03:38:47 pm
Interesting you mention that- that is exactly how a lot of mass produced items fizzle out. In fact, the last three years, as I remember, of the KZ 1300 were earlier bikes assembled in two batches (again, as I remember) that had nothing to do with what 'model year' the bikes were stamped with.

Brian


<snip>

Still at 1000 per year, they could get rid of a lot of parts inventory just by assembling them. As warrantys start expiring the need for new parts will diminish significantly
as those seeking repair will turn increasingly to the ebay/used parts market just to keep the repair prices inline with the decreasing value of their older bikes. No?

<snip>

Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: B.D.F. on December 03, 2017, 03:47:31 pm
A significant advantage Kawasaki may have is if they keep the ZX and Concours models running together (meaning the Concours will have to get the larger, current ZX engine and so forth) then they can spread R&D, development and all or almost all certification costs across two models. Yamaha, for example, is flapping out in the breeze by not having anything but an FJR use that engine.

Of course the above would only be an advantage if Kawasaki can make the sales of two (or more?) models using the basic -14 chassis sell more total units than Yamaha can sell FJRs. If not, then there is no advantage at all.

Clearly the sport touring market is small in sales, small in suppliers and models, and getting smaller yet. I personally do not really think of the BMW 16 series as a sport tourer but more of a pure tourer; that may be incorrect but IMO the last sport tourer BMW made was the K1300 GT. Which, by the way, is surprising that they dropped the GT as they continue to make the 1300S; the   same advantages would apply that I already mentioned regarding the two Kawasakis.

Brian

the Trophy is gone for a while in Europe, non Euro4 compliant... I have my doubts Kawasaki will make the ZX14 to comply with Euro 5/6, leading to the H2SX as its replacement. Same for Yamaha if it will make the old FJR Euro5/6 compliant unless they have something NEW in the pipeline. If not, only BMW RT and K16... one will have to pay the piper.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: maxtog on December 03, 2017, 03:51:18 pm
A significant advantage Kawasaki may have is if they keep the ZX and Concours models running together (meaning the Concours will have to get the larger, current ZX engine and so forth) then they can spread R&D, development and all or almost all certification costs across two models. 

+1 exactly.  Just use the ZX-14R engine, slap on the existing C14 head, add the pre-existing associated Euro-4 addon and done.  It is bizarre.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: gPink on December 03, 2017, 04:04:53 pm
Seems to me the biggest threat to motorcycling aside from sales is these damn EuroCrap regulations.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: maxtog on December 03, 2017, 04:19:04 pm
Seems to me the biggest threat to motorcycling aside from sales is these damn EuroCrap regulations.

And the other will be when motorcycles are outlawed [or become unaffordable] because they aren't very compatible with being "self-driving" like cars will become.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: olie on December 03, 2017, 05:15:21 pm
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.  Euro-4 was easy for the ZX (and WOULD be for the Concours) but I am not sure that Euro-5 would be doable.... although, admittedly, I don't know much about Euro-5.


...just follow this link...

http://www.transportpolicy.net/standard/eu-motorcycles-emissions/?title=eu:_motorcycles:_emissions (http://www.transportpolicy.net/standard/eu-motorcycles-emissions/?title=eu:_motorcycles:_emissions)
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: Bob Skinner on December 03, 2017, 05:24:12 pm
I heard a lot of this same discussion back in 2006 when the C-10 was discontinued but kawasaki pulled the rabbit out of the hat with the C-14.
I'm hoping they can do it again.

Bob Skinner
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: Conniesaki on December 03, 2017, 08:02:14 pm
They're still makin' this sport tourer, for now anyway. Well, OK, ya gotta buy side cases and top case :finger_fing11:

(http://www.zx14ninjaforum.com/userfiles/extrapolator/1720257a.jpg)
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: maxtog on December 03, 2017, 08:15:57 pm
They're still makin' this sport tourer, for now anyway. Well, OK, ya gotta buy side cases and top case

:P  and somehow convert it to shaft drive, and move the pegs forward, and put on bigger fairings, and add heated grips, and rip out the windscreen to put in a powered one, and add a keyless ignitions, and add variable valve head, and replace the handlebars, and add a rack, and add a glovebox, and upsize the mirrors, and triple the warranty... hey, it becomes a faster Concours with better headlights...  :)

Hey, I think that is a ZRX in the background of the first pic!  (My previous bike)
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: Conniesaki on December 03, 2017, 09:43:29 pm
...

Hey, I think that is a ZRX in the background of the first pic!  (My previous bike)


It's my buddy's:

(http://www.zx14ninjaforum.com/userfiles/extrapolator/Trip 2017a.jpg)
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: O.C. on December 05, 2017, 03:29:55 am
Here's a review, which may be the first......its stunning, but I would need to be 15-20 years younger ....ahhhhhh halcyon days  ;)       


https://youtu.be/iLajTDUEjEA?t=59   
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: B.D.F. on December 05, 2017, 04:41:02 am
Slick! I would have to see one in the flesh but I think that is a workable chassis for a distance bike.

Brian

Here's a review, which may be the first......its stunning, but I would need to be 15-20 years younger ....ahhhhhh halcyon days  ;)       


https://youtu.be/iLajTDUEjEA?t=59   
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: olie on December 05, 2017, 11:08:59 am
Slick! I would have to see one in the flesh but I think that is a workable chassis for a distance bike.

Brian

+1... if Kawa makes a Versys H2 version like they did with the N1k vs V1k, I will be in... very doable!!

After changing the oem tires, my V1k is growing on me... not perfect... but a "VH2" oh yeah !!!
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: blue14 on December 05, 2017, 11:21:28 am
Slick! I would have to see one in the flesh but I think that is a workable chassis for a distance bike.


Brian

Brian show the picture of the H2SX loaded two up to your wife and let me know if it's a workable chassis for long distance.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 05, 2017, 12:36:13 pm
Tend to agree...
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: B.D.F. on December 05, 2017, 01:33:09 pm
Why? Is my wife in charge of motorcycle chassis suitability for different tasks or something?

:-)

Brian

Brian show the picture of the H2SX loaded two up to your wife and let me know if it's a workable chassis for long distance.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: B.D.F. on December 05, 2017, 01:35:31 pm
You think my wife is in charge of motorcycle chassis styles too? Did I miss something? Was there a vote and she got herself elected..... to be the authority on motorcycles or something?

I am going to have to have a chat with her because if she really does wield that kind of 'juice', maybe she can get enough changes made to an FJR to make it more attractive and I might buy one.

Brian

Tend to agree...
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 05, 2017, 01:43:02 pm
Yes.  She was promoted a month ago.  The vote was unanimous.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: gPink on December 05, 2017, 02:24:27 pm
You should really talk with your wife more.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: B.D.F. on December 05, 2017, 03:03:35 pm
Said no one who has been married for more than 35 minutes.....

 :rotflmao:

Brian

You should really talk with your wife more.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: B.D.F. on December 05, 2017, 03:05:54 pm
And the salary is, weekly? Monthly? I can see this working out.

Brian

Yes.  She was promoted a month ago.  The vote was unanimous.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 05, 2017, 03:27:16 pm
She didn't want a salary..   She did want a new car and we told her you would buy it.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: maxtog on December 05, 2017, 03:50:24 pm
Here's a review, which may be the first......its stunning, but I would need to be 15-20 years younger ....ahhhhhh halcyon days  ;)       


https://youtu.be/iLajTDUEjEA?t=59   

Interesting/thanks, but 11 min video with very little info.  Mostly just someone riding it, saying it is fast and he likes it.   I guess we can't expect much this early.

This quote is telling:  "For sport touring, I think the only thing you are going to care about is the extra lighting, the heated grips, and color display..."  showing, he really doesn't know much about what many of us DO care about with sport touring, or he just didn't want to talk about what was missing....  C14- storage of full helmets in the panniers, rear rack (and ability for top box), shaft drive, large and electric windscreen, better range, larger fairings, longer wheelbase, passenger room, peg placement, warranty, grip height, tpms, glovebox.  For me, the only think I like on the H2SX over the C14, other than the power, are the cornering lights and cruise.

Would love to see a video review of the H2SX done by someone who rides and understands the C14.  Perhaps one will come.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: B.D.F. on December 05, 2017, 04:41:40 pm
What a coincidence! I was just going to do that anyway!

http://play.matchbox.com/en_US/ (http://play.matchbox.com/en_US/)

Brian

She didn't want a salary..   She did want a new car and we told her you would buy it.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 05, 2017, 07:37:32 pm
I'm thinking she wants something larger (EASY BOYS).
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: Rick Hall on December 05, 2017, 11:33:21 pm
What if...

Mama Kaw has been in the sport touring bidness since at least 1986. I hear they sold a modicum of Concours back then, maybe even at a gross profit over the 'limited' run of the bone stock/unchanged OEM Concours model. Who knows.

Then they tweaked the model in 1994, using off the shelf parts taken from other models... except for the fairing... and maybe the silly 16 and 18" wheels. I heard they sold a modicum of them too, probably at a slight profit. Who knows.

What if I said Mama Kaw might continue the Concours, in any iteration, just so they can maintain 'shelf space'. At their dealers as well as in the motorcycle community as a whole.

As an example I give you the cereal isle at your local store. You could also use the hot-dog isle if you wish. Certainly Post Grape Nuts sells, but is it their profit leader? I think not. Yet that one cereal gives Post additional "frontage", even though it may sell at a net loss.

I'm not in Marketing at mama K, I don't think any of are. The C-14 does sell, and I suspect it will continue to sell (sans Gubmint silly-assed regs) into the immediate future. Perhaps at a trivial loss to Mamma K.

Who knows ;)

Rick
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: Akumu on December 06, 2017, 05:50:58 pm
Interesting/thanks, but 11 min video with very little info.  Mostly just someone riding it, saying it is fast and he likes it.   I guess we can't expect much this early.

This quote is telling:  "For sport touring, I think the only thing you are going to care about is the extra lighting, the heated grips, and color display..."  showing, he really doesn't know much about what many of us DO care about with sport touring, or he just didn't want to talk about what was missing....  C14- storage of full helmets in the panniers, rear rack (and ability for top box), shaft drive, large and electric windscreen, better range, larger fairings, longer wheelbase, passenger room, peg placement, warranty, grip height, tpms, glovebox.  For me, the only think I like on the H2SX over the C14, other than the power, are the cornering lights and cruise.

Would love to see a video review of the H2SX done by someone who rides and understands the C14.  Perhaps one will come.

You're really banging away on this bike, man. (Reminds me of a dude on Youtube that says the C14 isn't a sport tourer. He calls it a tourer, and says SD-GT, H2 SX, N1K are the REAL sport tourers.) This bike is 'essentially' a spruced up super charged, little more aggressive Ninja 1000. It's never tried to be a C14 replacement, and anyone who thinks such is fooling themselves. Hell, it shouldnt even be mentioned in the same sentence other than debating what a sport tourer is.

That said, despite the small sales figures of the sport touring niche, it is a BROAD category. I rate the C14 as a 'sport-TOURER' and the H2 SX as a SPORT-tourer (ala VFR800/N1K). No company builds a bike with optional hard luggage to just have the bike be 'standard.'
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: maxtog on December 06, 2017, 05:59:32 pm
You're really banging away on this bike, man.

Only because it will most likely be the cause (or the signal) of the death of the Concours; it's so-called "replacement" in the eyes of Kawasaki and many others.  As a separate type of bike, the H2SX is just fine; more than fine, actually- it is great!  But for many people, it doesn't replace what the Concours brings to the table... and that is the motivation behind my "banging away at it."
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: O.C. on December 07, 2017, 01:59:46 am
Seems this is why the film clip was pulled

http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/kawasaki/manufacturerkawasaki2018-kawasaki-ninja-h2-sx-review-first-ride-html (http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/kawasaki/manufacturerkawasaki2018-kawasaki-ninja-h2-sx-review-first-ride-html)
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: DaddyFlip on December 14, 2017, 10:10:25 pm
IF I wanted another C14 and was going to write a letter, I would just ask for the H2 SX rider interface be added to the C14: gauge cluster, electronics package, controls, and KQS. Have no idea what this would make the new bike cost, but hopefully less than 22 grand.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: maxtog on December 14, 2017, 10:32:23 pm
IF I wanted another C14 and was going to write a letter, I would just ask for the H2 SX rider interface be added to the C14: gauge cluster, electronics package, controls, and KQS. Have no idea what this would make the new bike cost, but hopefully less than 22 grand.

I *love* the C14 analog gauges and wouldn't be happy losing even the analog speedometer.  But that color screen on the H2SX SE (note, it is ONLY on the even MORE expensive SE) is nice, indeed.... so that would be a fine swap for our small mono.  Screen cost- minimal.  Cruise is almost no cost, just a $20 stepper motor and some linkage.  I clutchless upshift all the time, so not sure I would even care about KQS.  LED lights- no brainer, and doesn't cost anything more.  Add a few extra buttons, and some reprogramming, a few tweaks here and there.....  I can't imagine any of it would really cost more than $1K additional (even with cornering lights added).
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: DaddyFlip on December 15, 2017, 07:16:14 am
I *love* the C14 analog gauges and wouldn't be happy losing even the analog speedometer.  But that color screen on the H2SX SE (note, it is ONLY on the even MORE expensive SE) is nice, indeed.... so that would be a fine swap for our small mono.  Screen cost- minimal.  Cruise is almost no cost, just a $20 stepper motor and some linkage.  I clutchless upshift all the time, so not sure I would even care about KQS.  LED lights- no brainer, and doesn't cost anything more.  Add a few extra buttons, and some reprogramming, a few tweaks here and there.....  I can't imagine any of it would really cost more than $1K additional (even with cornering lights added).

I like analog tach, but would rather digital speedo so a straight swap to the new SX cluster would do it for me. So you would prefer mechanically actuated cruise rather than RBW with rider modes? In truth, I probably would prefer cable throttle but RBW has gotten really good so I'll take the upgrade. I'm sure you've at least tried a bike with up/down quickshifter; it is really nice and I would want that. Clutchless downshifting is way more fun/valuable than upshifting for a sport touring bike. Yes; LED lights I didn't mention explicitly, but would be easy to add along with the cornering LEDs
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: maxtog on December 15, 2017, 03:00:13 pm
So you would prefer mechanically actuated cruise rather than RBW with rider modes?

No, I wouldn't.  But the C14 is not drive-by-wire.  It has only partial computer control of the throttle with the secondary butterflies- it can restrict power, but not increase it (it can't over-ride the closing of the throttle, only the opening of the throttle... which is why unflashed, we lose so much power-time).  So any cruise control would require mechanical.  Remember- you just wanted to swap the dash around....  having a full computerized throttle would require a different throttle/intake/butterfly assembly and major ECU changes (+$$).  Adding cruise to THAT is truly a $0 add-on because the computer already knows everything and controls everything, so it is basically just a switch or two.  But that wasn't part of the proposed proposal you had.  Oh- and if they did such a swap, then the reflashing is completely thrown out the window, at least for quite a while :)

Quote
I'm sure you've at least tried a bike with up/down quickshifter; it is really nice and I would want that.

I never even heard of it until the recent announcements.  It sounds interesting, and I suppose I wouldn't mind having it, might even love it, but not something I couldn't live without (since I never got dependent on it like I did with being able to store a large, FULL FACE helmet in the pannier, having an adjustable windscreen, etc).
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: pacman1 on December 15, 2017, 05:58:27 pm
Just sent my first letter to Mama Kaw.  Hope she gets it. 

We NEED this motor in an updated Concours.  Clearly Kawasaki is planning to make extensive use of this powerplant on a global scale for the foreseeable future.  And surely those plans will have included meeting the more restrictive emissions laws of the future, both EU and US.  That being the case, it only makes sense to adapt it to shaft drive, fit it into an updated Connie monocoque chassis with all the accouterments and electronic gizmos (including CRUISE CONTROL) to go along with a modern sport-touring machine, and unleash the beast on the world.  It would compliment the H2 SX perfectly - each with its own focus. 

They will sell boatloads of them.

Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: eng943 on December 25, 2017, 08:32:15 am
As great of a bike as I think the C14 is, Kawasaki can take some of the blame for slumping sales. If the business case to invest in the bike and add features to make it more directly competitive has not been compelling, then I highly doubt eroding sales will help. The C14 has lost sales to bike with CC and other features. Lack of content has been a compelling case for an arguable number of buyers to go to an FJR, or BMW, etc. Sure you can add cruise, as I am about to, but that's a hassle many would rather avoid. It's a shame, because the C14 has better bones than the FJR in my opinion. Nicer engine/trans, slightly better wind protection.

I fully expect Kawasaki to drop the C14 in the near future.       
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 25, 2017, 10:02:43 am
+1 unfortunately.

Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: B.D.F. on December 25, 2017, 12:33:45 pm
That might explain it now but even back in the early days, it did not sell well and was easily current or even advanced with the other direct competitors at that time.

I too think it is the best chassis for this use and have spent some time wondering on what is (or what things are) standing in the way of better sales. One problem I think may well be the relatively small fuel tank and if so, that is a double- edged sword: it is the tank already in use for the ZX 14 and so cut down on tooling and production costs, allowing a lower retail price on the bike but of course banged up against the FJR's larger tank and longer range.

I also think those considering a Concours got used to it being a somewhat obsolescent bike but a tremendous value as it was amazingly inexpensive (the C-10 in the 2000's); that too was lost with  the huge update to the C-14 and perhaps people were not quite willing to pay the larger price for a bike that had the same name of the far less expensive bike only two model years before. ?? As an example, Chevrolet introduced its first V-8 in (I think) 1919, and it was quite advanced for an auto of that time. But it cost what such a large, powerful and well- appointed car had to cost and it just did not sell well because people would not spend the same money as a Pierce Arrow, or Packard, etc. on a Chevrolet. The very brand defeated it. That too <may> be part of the C-14's legacy.

It does appear that the C-14 is at a crossroads and really has to be updated significantly or dropped because sales will continue to fall off if it is basically kept as it is now. But a bigger engine, C.C., and a few other attributes such as a bigger fuel tank could again bring it directly into competition with the Feejer, and that is what Kawasaki has to (or perhaps has already) decide.

Brian

As great of a bike as I think the C14 is, Kawasaki can take some of the blame for slumping sales. If the business case to invest in the bike and add features to make it more directly competitive has not been compelling, then I highly doubt eroding sales will help. The C14 has lost sales to bike with CC and other features. Lack of content has been a compelling case for an arguable number of buyers to go to an FJR, or BMW, etc. Sure you can add cruise, as I am about to, but that's a hassle many would rather avoid. It's a shame, because the C14 has better bones than the FJR in my opinion. Nicer engine/trans, slightly better wind protection.

I fully expect Kawasaki to drop the C14 in the near future.     
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: eng943 on December 26, 2017, 06:34:46 am
That might explain it now but even back in the early days, it did not sell well and was easily current or even advanced with the other direct competitors at that time.

I too think it is the best chassis for this use and have spent some time wondering on what is (or what things are) standing in the way of better sales. One problem I think may well be the relatively small fuel tank and if so, that is a double- edged sword: it is the tank already in use for the ZX 14 and so cut down on tooling and production costs, allowing a lower retail price on the bike but of course banged up against the FJR's larger tank and longer range.

I also think those considering a Concours got used to it being a somewhat obsolescent bike but a tremendous value as it was amazingly inexpensive (the C-10 in the 2000's); that too was lost with  the huge update to the C-14 and perhaps people were not quite willing to pay the larger price for a bike that had the same name of the far less expensive bike only two model years before. ?? As an example, Chevrolet introduced its first V-8 in (I think) 1919, and it was quite advanced for an auto of that time. But it cost what such a large, powerful and well- appointed car had to cost and it just did not sell well because people would not spend the same money as a Pierce Arrow, or Packard, etc. on a Chevrolet. The very brand defeated it. That too <may> be part of the C-14's legacy.

It does appear that the C-14 is at a crossroads and really has to be updated significantly or dropped because sales will continue to fall off if it is basically kept as it is now. But a bigger engine, C.C., and a few other attributes such as a bigger fuel tank could again bring it directly into competition with the Feejer, and that is what Kawasaki has to (or perhaps has already) decide.

Brian

Agreed, the smaller fuel tank did not help. Nor did the characteristics of the earlier linked brakes, and perhaps KiPass. All to arguable degrees of significance. I owned a 2015 FJR1300A briefly. It was a steal at $9500 brand new, so I bought it to keep as a second bike. I loved having the CC, but I like the C14 better in most regards excluding the smaller tank and KiPass. The linked brakes on my 17 C14 are much improved from my 2013 C14.

Having such a fondness for a bike that does not receive the attention to further development and refinement from the mother ship s a bit disappointing. Still a great bike, but Kawasaki could have easily done more to steal sales away from the FJR IMO.         
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: B.D.F. on December 26, 2017, 07:29:57 am
Yeah, after a lot of thought, I think (hold onto your jockstraps folks, this is going to be a surprise.....) Kawasaki should either just eliminate KiPass or make it optional. There, I said it. While I am a big fan, there is some kind of resistance to the system in the US; Yamaha realized this because they have a similar system on the FJR but NOT those sold in the US. For whatever reason, we seem a bit backward and sort of superstitious regarding 'new' technologies. I am old enough to very well remember all the hate aimed at electronic ignition as well as fuel injection, and I firmly believe that a large percentage of the driving public still would rather have a distributor and carburation regardless of the fact that both of those systems have been very well proven to be inferior in every way that I know of. KiPass seems to make a lot of people act like cavemen seeing lightening and thereafter fearing they may anger the gods and get more lightening. Look at the frankly amazing superstition surrounding just removing the stove knob key- honestly, it makes me think of native Pacific Islanders afraid of angering the god of the volcano. :-)  But in the end, this is the very public that Kawasaki needs to sell to so given a choice between trying to force them to be rational or simply giving them the 'good juju' that they want, it is just going to be better to give them the 'juju'. Hell, might as well offer a special invocation of the 'longevity ceremony' once a week for the same price as the extended warranty and I betcha' they sell a bunch of slots to that.  ::) ;D

Seriously, a larger fuel tank, a good ole' fashioned key (or just bare wires we can twist together- either way), and update to the larger ZX engine and the bike would probably gain a lot of traction in the sport- tourer market. That still leaves the huge question as to whether or not that market, all of it, is large enough to support any significant amount of design and production effort. If Kawasaki claims they are selling 1,000 units a year now, what is the entire sport tourer sales number, which is all they could possibly get? If it is only 5,000 or 10,000 units a year, and no single manufacturer will ever get all of any market, then it may not be worthwhile at all. Look at BMW: they dropped the direct competitor to the C-14 and the FJR, the K1300GT, which I thought was a great bike and while it did have a few problem areas, proper support and a little re- design could have fixed them. But BMW choose to simply drop the line, which kind of indicates to me that maybe the entire sport touring market is not that large and so not worth a big (read: expensive) effort to capture a larger slide of it. ??

Brian

Agreed, the smaller fuel tank did not help. Nor did the characteristics of the earlier linked brakes, and perhaps KiPass. All to arguable degrees of significance. I owned a 2015 FJR1300A briefly. It was a steal at $9500 brand new, so I bought it to keep as a second bike. I loved having the CC, but I like the C14 better in most regards excluding the smaller tank and KiPass. The linked brakes on my 17 C14 are much improved from my 2013 C14.

Having such a fondness for a bike that does not receive the attention to further development and refinement from the mother ship s a bit disappointing. Still a great bike, but Kawasaki could have easily done more to steal sales away from the FJR IMO.       
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: eng943 on December 26, 2017, 10:16:27 am
Yeah, after a lot of thought, I think (hold onto your jockstraps folks, this is going to be a surprise.....) Kawasaki should either just eliminate KiPass or make it optional. There, I said it. While I am a big fan, there is some kind of resistance to the system in the US; Yamaha realized this because they have a similar system on the FJR but NOT those sold in the US. For whatever reason, we seem a bit backward and sort of superstitious regarding 'new' technologies. I am old enough to very well remember all the hate aimed at electronic ignition as well as fuel injection, and I firmly believe that a large percentage of the driving public still would rather have a distributor and carburation regardless of the fact that both of those systems have been very well proven to be inferior in every way that I know of. KiPass seems to make a lot of people act like cavemen seeing lightening and thereafter fearing they may anger the gods and get more lightening. Look at the frankly amazing superstition surrounding just removing the stove knob key- honestly, it makes me think of native Pacific Islanders afraid of angering the god of the volcano. :-)  But in the end, this is the very public that Kawasaki needs to sell to so given a choice between trying to force them to be rational or simply giving them the 'good juju' that they want, it is just going to be better to give them the 'juju'. Hell, might as well offer a special invocation of the 'longevity ceremony' once a week for the same price as the extended warranty and I betcha' they sell a bunch of slots to that.  ::) ;D

Seriously, a larger fuel tank, a good ole' fashioned key (or just bare wires we can twist together- either way), and update to the larger ZX engine and the bike would probably gain a lot of traction in the sport- tourer market. That still leaves the huge question as to whether or not that market, all of it, is large enough to support any significant amount of design and production effort. If Kawasaki claims they are selling 1,000 units a year now, what is the entire sport tourer sales number, which is all they could possibly get? If it is only 5,000 or 10,000 units a year, and no single manufacturer will ever get all of any market, then it may not be worthwhile at all. Look at BMW: they dropped the direct competitor to the C-14 and the FJR, the K1300GT, which I thought was a great bike and while it did have a few problem areas, proper support and a little re- design could have fixed them. But BMW choose to simply drop the line, which kind of indicates to me that maybe the entire sport touring market is not that large and so not worth a big (read: expensive) effort to capture a larger slide of it. ??

Brian

The K1300 was a good bike, but BMW made the right move going to a new platform with the K16GT. I liked my K13GT overall, but the engine was a bit buzzy compared to my C14, and it was geared too short for interstate work in my opinion. I can't think of anything that my K13 objectively did better than my C14, but I do think that my C14 is superior to the K13GT overall especially in the category of engine/trans, and of course value. The K16 moved the needle in the sport touring segment in a way the K13 could not. More refined, more unique, more features better 2 up bike. The only downside compared to the K13GT is low speed handling, added size and weight. The latter two really are not noticed at all once the K16GT is above 20-30 mph.           

About the only thing I preferred about my K13 vs my K16 was the smaller size. A 7/8 scale K16 would really punch the ticket for me. Otherwise, the K16GT just simply does everything better than the K13GT based on my experience.   

What makes it easier for BMW is that they pretty much own the sport touring space, and occupy the higher end of the price point in the segment. Lots of K13's got traded in when the K16GT came out....including mine.

My only digs on my K16GT are the size, weight and cost. Just can't justify $25K for a motorcycle as I size up college tuition and retirement lol!     
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: B.D.F. on December 26, 2017, 12:52:26 pm
Absolutely agree with the fast- turning engine in the K1300GT; quite a 'singer' on the highway. I found the BMW has a bit less buzz in the handlebars and a bit more in the footpegs- kind of the same amount as a C-14 but placed a little differently.

My own experience is based on riding someone else's bike a few times, mixed riding, and really liked the bike. Also exactly as you say, it felt lighter and more nimble than a C-14, not to imply it handled better, just that it felt less heavy and resistant to turn-in, and low speed handling. I only rode alone and while the peg / bars / windshield placement was not fantastic, I think I could have made it acceptable for longer distance use. Two- up may have been a deal- killer too.

I did find the performance of the K1300GT to be truly impressive, especially from a standing- start. At least as much power as a C-14, less weight and especially, the low gearing all combined to make it very snappy and responsive IMO. As I said, it was not my bike and so I did not beat on it of course but just using 'all' of the throttle and most of the tachometer made the bike very impressive for a sport tourer and showed the front wheel to be a little light.  ;)

Just my personal opinion but the 1600 does not really float my boat; I think if I went that far, I might just go the rest of the way and buy a GoldWing.

Tough to predict how things will be in a few years but right this moment, I would buy another C-14 and mod. it as needed to make it what I want. Nothing else has been able to fill that slot, for me, as well yet. If the C-14 is not available in a couple of years when I expect to be in the market, or if I am even older than I am now (read: reaching or approaching pathetic), a ZX 14 would be the next- best workable bike for me I think.

Great to have these first- world problems though, is it not?  ;) ;D

Brian

The K1300 was a good bike, but BMW made the right move going to a new platform with the K16GT. I liked my K13GT overall, but the engine was a bit buzzy compared to my C14, and it was geared too short for interstate work in my opinion. I can't think of anything that my K13 objectively did better than my C14, but I do think that my C14 is superior to the K13GT overall especially in the category of engine/trans, and of course value. The K16 moved the needle in the sport touring segment in a way the K13 could not. More refined, more unique, more features better 2 up bike. The only downside compared to the K13GT is low speed handling, added size and weight. The latter two really are not noticed at all once the K16GT is above 20-30 mph.           

About the only thing I preferred about my K13 vs my K16 was the smaller size. A 7/8 scale K16 would really punch the ticket for me. Otherwise, the K16GT just simply does everything better than the K13GT based on my experience.   

What makes it easier for BMW is that they pretty much own the sport touring space, and occupy the higher end of the price point in the segment. Lots of K13's got traded in when the K16GT came out....including mine.

My only digs on my K16GT are the size, weight and cost. Just can't justify $25K for a motorcycle as I size up college tuition and retirement lol!   
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: O.C. on December 27, 2017, 03:31:41 am
I purchased a new K1300 GT EE in February 2011, it replaced a C14 that I had. The K1300 had a great engine, was very comfy and being the EE (Exclusive Edition model) was  extremely well equipped, it preceded the introduction of the K16 and was a 'run out model', however it came complete with a notchy gear change, some other issues which I cannot/prefer not to recall and worst of all it cut out completely whilst I was making a right turn whilst exiting a biker meeting, this was both embarrassing and costly for me.

The supplying dealer refused to acknowledge any fault of the bike and said That BMW UK had never heard of this issue before (I had not accidentally hit the kill switch BTW).

It wasn't long after having the repairs completed at my expense, that BMW UK accepted that others had experienced a similar problem and  repaired faulty kill switches.

So much for BMW legendary reliability and customer care.......pah........never again will I darken their doorstep     :(   
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: B.D.F. on December 27, 2017, 05:55:49 am
Yeah they have had (or are having?) their problems certainly. And some of them were (are?) disastrous, such as that cute final drive flame- out failure that BMW balked at covering, addressing in any way or even 'fessing up about. But I was really just discussing the bike as it pertains to actually riding and behavior..... at least when it behaves itself. :-)

For those reasons and other, I am pretty much confined to Japanese bikes, and always have been. At this time, I think the only other brand (non- Japanese) I would even consider might be a KTM but that is not very likely either.

The person who owned the BMW that I rode had a bunch of BMW's and also more than a couple of incidents with their 'legendary reliability'. One time, he was riding a brand new K1200GT home when it just died..... ON THE HIGHWAY (!!) in Boston. He left it on the side of the road, made other arrangements to go home rather than back to the dealer, and then called them up an told them where they could find 'their' bike, assuming it was still there and they even wanted it back.  :rotflmao:  That actually worked out fine but then again, he bought a lot of bikes from them and so was well outside the range of the dealer's usual customer.

Brian

Brian

I purchased a new K1300 GT EE in February 2011, it replaced a C14 that I had. The K1300 had a great engine, was very comfy and being the EE (Exclusive Edition model) was  extremely well equipped, it preceded the introduction of the K16 and was a 'run out model', however it came complete with a notchy gear change, some other issues which I cannot/prefer not to recall and worst of all it cut out completely whilst I was making a right turn whilst exiting a biker meeting, this was both embarrassing and costly for me.

The supplying dealer refused to acknowledge any fault of the bike and said That BMW UK had never heard of this issue before (I had not accidentally hit the kill switch BTW).

It wasn't long after having the repairs completed at my expense, that BMW UK accepted that others had experienced a similar problem and  repaired faulty kill switches.

So much for BMW legendary reliability and customer care.......pah........never again will I darken their doorstep     :(   
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: Bergmen on December 27, 2017, 09:57:11 am
Throttle-by-wire is the wave of the future in modern vehicles these days and I am amazed that Kawasaki has not invested the R&D to convert the C14 and other models with this technology. Full command of the throttle by virtue of an ECU driven servo makes it much easier to comply with EPA and Euro emission standards as well as refining the entire rideability of the motorcycle. As mentioned, cruise control is merely a few lines of code + a $5.00 switch away. BMW has converted almost exclusively to TBW as well as including cruise on almost every model as well. Yamaha has seen the light as of the 2013 FJR and Tenere and the results speak for themselves.

Both Honda (ST1300) and Kawasaki would reap great benefits by converting to TBW, it would certainly get everyone's attention. Here is a schematic of the how the cruise control works on my 2014 A model:

(http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u580/Bergmen/Motorcycling/Yamaha%202014%20FJR1300A/YamahaFJR1300CruiseControlSchematic_zps872a698e.jpg) (http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/Bergmen/media/Motorcycling/Yamaha%202014%20FJR1300A/YamahaFJR1300CruiseControlSchematic_zps872a698e.jpg.html)

I don't know about Honda though. They seem to be in orbit around some planet that they (or anyone else for that matter) have not identified yet...

Dan
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: maxtog on December 27, 2017, 03:11:40 pm
Throttle-by-wire is the wave of the future in modern vehicles these days and I am amazed that Kawasaki has not invested the R&D to convert the C14 and other models with this technology.

The newly designed Kawasakis DO have throttle by wire.  But they are not going to spend tons of money to change already working models- that is not like a fairing swap or do-dad add.... it requires a whole new ECU, a new throttle body system, programming,  testing, EPA review, etc, etc.

Quote
Full command of the throttle by virtue of an ECU driven servo makes it much easier to comply with EPA and Euro emission standards

Nope.  Not on the C14 it doesn't.  The computer already has almost full control over CLOSING the throttle, which is all that is needed for any emissions/noise/MPG restrictions.

Quote
as well as refining the entire rideability of the motorcycle.

Again, not really- almost all refinements are closing the throttle more, not opening it.

Quote
As mentioned, cruise control is merely a few lines of code + a $5.00 switch away.

Yep, that is just trivial at that point

Quote
BMW has converted almost exclusively to TBW as well as including cruise on almost every model as well. Yamaha has seen the light as of the 2013 FJR and Tenere and the results speak for themselves.

They typically release drive-by-wire only when redesigned models come out- usually major redesigns (like what happened with the FJR).

Quote
Both Honda (ST1300) and Kawasaki would reap great benefits by converting to TBW, it would certainly get everyone's attention.

They already are.  With newly redesigned models, not just new model years.  At least on the C14 they would gain absolutely nothing except cruise and at a horrible expense.  With the sales numbers dwindling, they have likely decided to not even have a new Concours.... ever.  What you see with the 2018 is just a north-american-only extension of production.  They are just squeezing the last few drops out of the orange.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: B.D.F. on December 27, 2017, 04:11:02 pm
With all due respect, that is not quite correct Max; while the ECU does have control over the secondary butterflies on the C-14, it is not even close to complete control because the secondary butterflies are far smaller than the throttle body bores, unlike the primary throttle plates. To put it simply, the ECU just cannot 'choke' the air down on a C-14 nearly enough to have complete control. At a WAG, I would say something like 1/5 to 1/4 of the throttle's range is totally up to the user even with the secondaries fully closes.

There is also a huge difference in 'fly by wire' systems; some are nothing but an encoder (the throttle twist grip) placing the throttle plates (the 'throttle') in a matching position with no intervention of the ECU at all. Other systems may well use the ECU to determine the final placement of the throttle plates. I <believe> the Yamaha systems are a simple electronic replacement for a direct mechanical link but am not positive. Letting the ECU have final, ultimate control over throttle placement is both risky and will require a LOT of conditions and restrictions before it would even be allowed by the DOT. Just like KiPass: it can prevent the bike from starting but it is simply not able to cause the bike to stop running under any circumstances and this is an excellent design restriction IMO; I would never be in favor of any ECU being in control of the throttle on anything I was driving or riding.

Then again, there is Scarebus, where the computer makes all the final decisions of the flight envelope..... such as "landing" the plane because the gear is down and the airspeed is lower than a specified amount..... the pilot tried to open the throttles but the plane "helped" him and prevented that, and so the plane 'landed' in the woods beyond the runway. I do not know how one says 'Not good' in French.  ::) >:(

Brian


<snip>

Nope.  Not on the C14 it doesn't.  The computer already has full control over CLOSING the throttle, which is all that is needed for any emissions/noise/MPG restrictions.

<snip>

Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: maxtog on December 27, 2017, 04:35:32 pm
With all due respect, that is not quite correct Max; while the ECU does have control over the secondary butterflies on the C-14, it is not even close to complete control because the secondary butterflies are far smaller than the throttle body bores, unlike the primary throttle plates. To put it simply, the ECU just cannot 'choke' the air down on a C-14 nearly enough to have complete control.

OK, I was exaggerating with using the word "complete" (so I revised previous post) but it is certainly way, way, way more than enough control for any possible emissions, noise, or fuel economy needs (then, now, or in the future).
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: Bergmen on December 27, 2017, 05:41:44 pm
If you look at my schematic you will see that the servo is controlled by the ECU. The ECU factors in inputs from a variety of sources as shown, including the Accelerator Postion Sensor (item 11). My 2006 Toyota Tundra is the same, total ECU controlled throttle servo motor.

Maxtog, not sure what you mean by this:

"But they are not going to spend tons of money to change already working models- that is not like a fairing swap or do-dad add.... it requires a whole new ECU, a new throttle body system, programming,  testing, EPA review, etc, etc."

This is exactly what Yamaha did for the Gen III FJR, completely re-engineered the EFI and ECU. All for the better I might add, as perfect a throttle control as I've ever experienced on a motorcycle and we get two drive modes to boot (Sport and Touring). This system has proven to be almost completely trouble-free as well, almost no one has had any driveability or reliability problems with this system.

And here is an article in Motorcyclist that describes the advantages of throttle-by-wire (they call it Ride-By-Wire), including emissions compliance as well as other factors:

https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ride-by-wire-technology-is-it-safe-mc-garage-motorcyclist-magazine (https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ride-by-wire-technology-is-it-safe-mc-garage-motorcyclist-magazine)

As I indicated, this technology is the wave of the future and Kawasaki needs to invest in the R&D to incorporate TBW on the C14 or continue to lose market share to those that do.

Dan
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: kzz1king on December 27, 2017, 06:44:18 pm
According to consumer reports.

The reliability ratings are based on failure rates for 4-year-old bikes:
Yamaha/Star (11 percent failure rate)
Suzuki and Honda (12 percent)
Kawasaki (15 percent)
Victory (17 percent)
Harley-Davidson (26 percent)
Triumph (29 percent)
Ducati (33 percent)
BMW (40 percent)
\
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: Poseidon on December 27, 2017, 06:51:07 pm
RBW is nothing more than idiot proofing a bike. Manufacturers are squeezing as much power as they can (within the limits of the EPA, Euro-4, etc) out of these motors. They are making 200hp plus bikes and selling them to the general public for higher MSRPs than the lower HP models. Then they add traction control, RBW, rider modes, etc, adding several thousand more to the MSRP, with these electronics that cut power and throttle response. That seems a little counter productive to me... All of this in an effort to put people with less than optimal riding skills on bikes with more power than these riders can handle, with computers that will keep them from ever experiencing the potential power of the bike they spent all that money on, due to the potential power it has... where do I sign up?!?!

What ever happened to learning how to ride, buying bikes that match your skill set, getting a new bike once your skills improve, having respect for the capabilities of the bike you bought, and finally... having some throttle control so a computer doesn't have to do it for you?  The article in the link that was posted above stated one of the benefits of RBW was giving people the ability to buy a bike that is beyond their skill set, start in the lower performance settings and advance as their skill set improves. Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that idea? We are not talking about bike like the Rebel 250 in the lowest performance mode here. We are talking about super bikes, H2's, zx14's, Hayabusa's, etc as starter bikes because new riders have the ability to ride them in a low performance setting due the the benefits of RBW.

I am not totally against technology. I grew up right in the middle of carbs going out and EFI coming in and I saw the potential of that almost immediately. This new tech they are putting into cars and now bikes is just a way to idiot proof everything for the distracted generation! It is also about manufacturers trying to make bikes that anyone can ride, but based on performance capabilities, few should, and selling them at a higher price due to the performance and electronics packages that counter act that performance.

I'm just glad I got my Concours when I did if this is the way things are headed!!!
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: maxtog on December 27, 2017, 07:21:47 pm
Maxtog, not sure what you mean by this:

"But they are not going to spend tons of money to change already working models- that is not like a fairing swap or do-dad add.... it requires a whole new ECU, a new throttle body system, programming,  testing, EPA review, etc, etc."

This is exactly what Yamaha did for the Gen III FJR, completely re-engineered the EFI and ECU.

It was in response to the implied question as to why they didn't change the Concours to drive-by-wire or why they hadn't already.  I responded that they would not invest that kind of money into the Concours unless they were doing a major redesign [anyway] like they did on the Yamaha.  They never did a redesign of the C14 (except for very early on with the gen2, which was a considerable change, but not "major").

Quote
As I indicated, this technology is the wave of the future and Kawasaki needs to invest in the R&D to incorporate TBW on the C14 or continue to lose market share to those that do.

Lack of drive-by-wire doesn't hurt the C14.  It wouldn't really gain anything it doesn't already have, so it shouldn't hurt sales not having it nor gain sales if it did have it.  But adding cruise control would certainly be important, and not having it might have cost some sales.  How many, I don't know.  In any case that doesn't require drive-by-wire, it could have been added without a big overhaul.  Would have been a nice "gen3" feature... alas, that is likely to never materialize now :(

Anyway, let's address every point in the article:

* Taming power:  C14 already does this by computer throttle control
* Ride modes:  C14 already does this by computer throttle control (FEAM, Gen2)
* Emissions compliance: C14 already does this by computer throttle control (FEAM, Gen2)
* Improved traction control:  C14 already does this by computer throttle control (Gen2)
* Meeting license limitations: C14 COULD do this with existing system if they wanted to, but no reason
* Cruise:  Not possible with the C14, since it can not increase throttle, only lower it.
* They didn't even mention fuel economy, which IS specifically addressed and marketed on the C14 Gen2.

Kawasaki was already well in the advanced tech range with the C14 for when it was designed (and then improved with Gen2). 
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: maxtog on December 27, 2017, 07:28:17 pm
All of this in an effort to put people with less than optimal riding skills on bikes with more power than these riders can handle, with computers that will keep them from ever experiencing the potential power of the bike they spent all that money on, due to the potential power it has... where do I sign up?!?!

LOL!

Quote
What ever happened to learning how to ride, buying bikes that match your skill set, getting a new bike once your skills improve, having respect for the capabilities of the bike you bought, and finally... having some throttle control so a computer doesn't have to do it for you?

I have wondered that, myself.  It seems like too many people have more dollars than sense.

Quote
The article in the link that was posted above stated one of the benefits of RBW was giving people the ability to buy a bike that is beyond their skill set, start in the lower performance settings and advance as their skill set improves. Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that idea?

I could see how it would be useful for someone that was just learning to get comfortable on the bike, but not as a replacement for starting on a 250 (which is not only much less powerful, but much smaller/lighter too).  I mean, that is how I started.  Then went to a 1100 carbed, then the 1400 EFI.  However, I will point out again, the C14 could have easily already done that without the need for drive-by-wire.  With zero added cost, Kawasaki COULD have made a "mode" and used the secondary throttle control to complete neuter the bike.  This was partially already done on the gen2 with the "FEAM" (Fuel Economy Assist Mode), although it is not advertised as something that could be used for lowering the power.  Just press and hold the computer select button on the left bar for more than a few seconds- bam.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: Poseidon on December 27, 2017, 07:37:24 pm
The dealer showed me the eco mode when I bought it. He pushed and held the "flash to pass" button and pointed to the "Eco" on the screen. I reached up, turned it right back off and told him "yeah... I won't be needing that function".
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: maxtog on December 27, 2017, 07:48:54 pm
The dealer showed me the eco mode when I bought it. He pushed and held the "flash to pass" button and pointed to the "Eco" on the screen. I reached up, turned it right back off and told him "yeah... I won't be needing that function".

Technically, there is no "ECO Mode".  There is a FEAM (Fuel Economy Assistance Mode) and an ECO indicator for telling you when you are driving economically (which has nothing to do with FEAM).  And there is another, different "ECO" indicator to let you know when FEAM is activated (which should have been worded differently).  And it is not accessed by the flash-to-pass button- you have to use the computer select button, which is only on the Gen2.  The Gen1 has only a single map/mode and has no computer select button.

I don't find FEAM that useful, myself.  Although when I am scared I might not have the range I need when I am running low on fuel, I will switch into it.  Many owners do find it useful.  It is actually nothing but another map (more than a single map, actually it is a set of tables, but we just call it that).... and it is a map that can (and sometimes is) replaced when you reflash the bike.  If one wanted a "slow" mode, "hyper" mode, "cushy" mode, "mountain riding" mode, or pretty much any other mode, a tuner can put it in that slot.  Usually when you reflash a bike, the FEAM map is left stock (as a comparison) or replaced with the stock, non-FEAM map.  But there is no reason any other map can't be put there.  Steve, for example, has developed several different maps with different personalities (although he probably won't develop a "slow" mode :) )

Oh, if you haven't reflashed your C14 yet, you won't believe the difference...  (but it is great to ride it stock for a while and get familiar with it, you will appreciate it all the more).
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: Poseidon on December 27, 2017, 08:05:01 pm
I bought it last Wednesday, then got sick on Friday and spent all weekend laying around with a fever and cold symptoms. (Worst cold I've had in years) back at work this week. Still not over it.

I was only able to get just shy of 250 miles in on it so far. Normally, I would have the break in miles done the first weekend and had the oil changed by now. I haven't even opened her up yet. I'm sure I'll be looking into a flash and a few other items when the time comes. Only mods I've done so far are grip puppies and the warning sticker removal mod. Hahaha!
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: bowtie39 on December 27, 2017, 10:50:40 pm
Good to see you hanging around Dan!  That's all I have to add to this conversation so carry on. 
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: eng943 on December 28, 2017, 02:33:46 pm
Yeah they have had (or are having?) their problems certainly. And some of them were (are?) disastrous, such as that cute final drive flame- out failure that BMW balked at covering, addressing in any way or even 'fessing up about. But I was really just discussing the bike as it pertains to actually riding and behavior..... at least when it behaves itself. :-)

For those reasons and other, I am pretty much confined to Japanese bikes, and always have been. At this time, I think the only other brand (non- Japanese) I would even consider might be a KTM but that is not very likely either.

The person who owned the BMW that I rode had a bunch of BMW's and also more than a couple of incidents with their 'legendary reliability'. One time, he was riding a brand new K1200GT home when it just died..... ON THE HIGHWAY (!!) in Boston. He left it on the side of the road, made other arrangements to go home rather than back to the dealer, and then called them up an told them where they could find 'their' bike, assuming it was still there and they even wanted it back.  :rotflmao:  That actually worked out fine but then again, he bought a lot of bikes from them and so was well outside the range of the dealer's usual customer.

Brian

Brian

I'll lend another perspective here, and I'm certainly not discounting anyone's experiences. However, 12 years of owning several BMW's and the only problem I ever had was a fuel sensing strip on the instrument cluster failed on my RT and was replaced N/C. No final drive issues, nothing. All the guys I ride with are BMW owners, and they are fine as well. A couple being pretty high mileage bikes.

Anyway, as I said not challenging or discounting, but thought I'd go on record with the positive experience I had owning BMW's.       
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: Bergmen on December 28, 2017, 03:30:26 pm
Good to see you hanging around Dan!  That's all I have to add to this conversation so carry on.

Yeah, I cruise by here once a week or so. Almost never post unless it is on a subject that I can contribute to (such as this one). I've been without a Kawasaki since August of 2014 when I sold the ZGRX1200. Been riding my 2014 Yamaha FJR since I bought it in November of 2013.

Dan
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: motonerd14 on January 11, 2018, 12:14:15 am
While I don't intend on replacing my 2012, I did e-mail Kawasaki suggesting they continue the shaft drive and midsize touring bike feel of the C14 on the next iteration. I did also ask for cruise control. Last year I rode a few FJRs with this and while I'm not crazy about it, I can see why folks might want that feature, especially on a bike as buzzy as that FJR. (Not that one can ever use cruise control anywhere for long with the nitwits on California's roads...)

I sold 7 C14s at the dealership I worked at in 2017. 5 new, 2 used. Every customer loved them. All were converts from other brands, some on bigger bikes and others trading up from the 1000cc class. When I worked in the service department, we maintained California Highway Patrol C14s as well as regular civilian bikes and never had any failures come in. One CHP bike had just over 120k miles and Kawasaki recommended the cam chain be replaced. So we did. Still had the original shims though.

We never had any leaking final drive seals, though almost every post-March 2011 C14 that came in did have the leaking cam position sensor problem. No other faults or issues reported. We serviced a total of probably 30 different C14s and I'd consider that track record exemplary. The service manager used to joke that they only ever came in to take an oil break and then go back out for more.

I put 55k on my 2000, and 64k on my 2012 so far. If sport touring is going away as a segment, it would be really nice to at least have a replacement for my KLR but with a driveshaft next.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: Dualsport on May 16, 2018, 03:34:57 pm
If I traded in my C14 (I'm on my second C14) - with ONLY 18,000 miles on the ODO -- and a constant love of the bike -- for a new H2 SX SE, I would have less comfort, more headaches, no constant smile on my face, AND SMALLER SIDE BAGS, and a $311 / mo. payment for 60 months. The way I see it their sales will still go down. Kawi's strategy for the KLR 650 has been good hasn't it? let the prices climb elsewhere and Kawi should stick to us 'minimalists' who just love real motorcycles.  That's my two cents, but heck, what do I know, as I've been hacked ever since they got rid of the storage on top of the tank AND CRAMMED ABS down my throat!!  :rotflmao:
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: katata1100 on May 16, 2018, 05:11:55 pm
You left out crazy high insurance premiums.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: teqnc2 on May 19, 2018, 03:03:00 pm
So, I just went and did a quick google to get more info about the H2 SX.

I love the engine. I hate the rest of it.

I love my '08 C14, but my only concern is a wish that it had better mpg. If they were to put that new supercharged 1000 into the C14 frame, I would consider that to be the perfect bike.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: Akumu on May 19, 2018, 04:08:53 pm
H2 SX was never meant to be anything like a C14. Meant as a Sport Touring ZX14R replacement. LOTS of ZX-14(R) are bagged out, bar risered, taller windscreened bike. Basically an inline 4 VFR with 100 more hp.

If you want a C14 that gets better mileage you're best off with a 12+ C14, with it's ECO thingy and a proper flash. I've read mid 40s are quite common. I'm cool with 39-43mpg on my 08.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: katata1100 on May 19, 2018, 05:58:53 pm
My ‘11 has a flash but the thing that really help mpg was the mccruise. That , when used with eco, gives me an easy 50+ mpg. I’ll take her on a five day trip in July and will report back on mpg.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: freebird6 on May 20, 2018, 07:01:02 am


If you want a C14 that gets better mileage you're best off with a 12+ C14, with it's ECO thingy and a proper flash. I've read mid 40s are quite common. I'm cool with 39-43mpg on my 08.

I would agree with this. My 08 was the same as yours. My 13 with Steve's flash is mid to upper 40s with about 30 to 50 extra miles a tank running mid grade instead of premium on these flat Indiana roads depending on my twitchy wrist. When I make it down to my wife's homeland in Southeast Ohio I run premium and enjoy the curves, hills and wrist action which changes my gas consumption profile.
Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: Wickedsprint on May 21, 2018, 06:03:11 pm
Love Kawasakis and my C14. If the H2SX is around in 3-4 years when I decide to upgrade, it could easily fill the role of my C14 for how I utilize the bike...something slightly more comfy than a sportbike but with enough thrust to be engaging.

...if it’s insurable. 

Title: Re: The Future of th C14
Post by: Poseidon on May 21, 2018, 06:10:10 pm
Love Kawasakis and my C14. If the H2SX is around in 3-4 years when I decide to upgrade, it could easily fill the role of my C14 for how I utilize the bike...something slightly more comfy than a sportbike but with enough thrust to be engaging.

...if it’s insurable.

You just described the Concours perfectly... at least in my opinion anyway.

...ok, a lot more comfortable than a sport bike, but otherwise perfect!