Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: gpineau on February 14, 2018, 09:24:46 am

Title: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on February 14, 2018, 09:24:46 am
I have for years dreamed of changing my bike(s) over from carburetor to fuel injection. I love the earlier bikes but I hate to deal the problems that come with carburetors.  Every bike I own has multiple carburetors that require cleaning, tuning and syncing to get optimum performance.  And occasionally here  in Colorado I need to pull them to get the green gunk cleared out of the jets.The concourse is a dream compared to my three Honda magnas. But still it is a pain to have to remove the seat, tank, and side panels just to get to the carbs.    One of my  least favorite things to do is try to fit 4 carbs back into a V4 motor.

So i want to retrofit my bikes to fuel injection but I simply cant afford it. Good grief ! have you seen some of the prices of kits?  $$$$$$
Unless I am missing something, It would require spending more than the bike is worth to retrofit it.

Does anyone else have this dream and has anyone found a economical solution?
My price point is about $300.00   What is yours?
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: Daytona_Mike on February 14, 2018, 10:01:30 am
Just keep putting a cap full of two stroke oil in  your gas tank anytime you fill the bike up. No more issues unless you let the gas sit in the bike for a long time.You would need fuel stabilizer or leave aviation fuel  in it so the fuel wont go bad on you.
 (fuel  injection cannot fix old gas problems)
Also make sure you install Overflow Tubes on those Concourse carbs. Very important.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on February 14, 2018, 10:10:41 am
I have 4 bikes, I cant remember to ride them all once a week. Its cold here.  And I do use fuel stabilizers. and I have found a source of ethanol free gas two miles from my house. Still my magnas have trouble starting if I let them sit for a week. 

But Actually the point of my post was to get opinions on fuel injection retrofit systems and what others feelings about the price points.  I think if enough people were wanting the same thing the price points would come down as soon as there was a larg enough market.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: B.D.F. on February 14, 2018, 10:34:54 am
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I do not think four injector fuel injection can be done for anywhere near $300. Even if you were to grab a used F.I. system from a scrapped bike, it is doubtful the control algorithms would be 'close enough' to correct to work right, and even that would cost more than $300.

But is certainly is an interesting project if you do pursue it. Just as an example, this is a source of both the hardware and software, as well as all the information you need to set up a system should you decide to give it a try:   http://megasquirt.info/ (http://megasquirt.info/)

Brian

I have for years dreamed of changing my bike(s) over from carburetor to fuel injection. I love the earlier bikes but I hate to deal the problems that come with carburetors.  Every bike I own has multiple carburetors that require cleaning, tuning and syncing to get optimum performance.  And occasionally here  in Colorado I need to pull them to get the green gunk cleared out of the jets.The concourse is a dream compared to my three Honda magnas. But still it is a pain to have to remove the seat, tank, and side panels just to get to the carbs.    One of my  least favorite things to do is try to fit 4 carbs back into a V4 motor.

So i want to retrofit my bikes to fuel injection but I simply cant afford it. Good grief ! have you seen some of the prices of kits?  $$$$$$
Unless I am missing something, It would require spending more than the bike is worth to retrofit it.

Does anyone else have this dream and has anyone found a economical solution?
My price point is about $300.00   What is yours?
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on February 14, 2018, 03:45:39 pm
Thanks Jim.

If I do decide to pursue my own design I will try to make it as affordable as possible. I have 5 bikes on my property that could use it.

I think it would be a very interesting and learning project

Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: B.D.F. on February 14, 2018, 03:56:29 pm
Not sure who you are addressing here (no Jim in this thread as far as I know) but it is nothing short of fascinating.

I replaced the six carburetors on a KZ1300 with fuel injection; initially it was a stock system that Kawasaki fitted these bikes with but only in Europe. But as parts are no longer available, I went over to a Megasquirt controller and set it up. Overall, it worked well but I was using throttle bodies and fuel injectors made for that engine, which made it somewhat easier but also harder in some ways; I had no idea of the capacity of the fuel injectors and so had to back the size out of the data I gathered while tuning the system. Normally, one starts with injectors of a known size and calibrates the system to accommodate them; I had to go the other way and set a PWM width to a reasonable amount for a given RPM, then run the engine at that speed and adjust the initial parameters of the look- up tables until the mixture fell into the right place. Knowing how large the cylinder was, the RPM, the throttle opening and the injector 'ON' time and the injector size can be reverse calculated.

As I said, a fascinating thing to do but also quite involved and expensive, even if T.B.'s and fuel injectors are available that bolt on; it would be even more difficult if one had to fabricate adapters for throttle bodies, adapt throttle linkage, etc., to a bike that was never available with F.I. in the first place.

Best of luck if you do try this.

Brian

Thanks Jim.

If I do decide to pursue my own design I will try to make it as affordable as possible. I have 5 bikes on my property that could use it.

I think it would be a very interesting and learning project
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on February 14, 2018, 05:40:32 pm
Well I was talking to you BDF but I couldn't think of a lot of  first names to go with that acronym so I decided to call you Jim instead. If you prefer BDF then ok.

You seem to have a grasp of the techy side of implementing what I want. You understand pulse width and fuel/air mixture ratio control.  So I am glad that you have responded. I took a look at the megasquirt system and it seems to be just what I want to build but .. $250  for just the control CPU it a bit much considering all the sensors, injectors and other addons you need to make a complete system... It's not a turn key solution that is going to be as cheap as I want.

The megasquirt CPU kit might be a great head start to help me with my own design.  And maybe it is worth spending a few hundred more to develop the first article but I need 4 more at about $300 each. 

At any rate I need to do a lot more study before I embark on my own design if at all.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on February 14, 2018, 05:50:21 pm
gpineau, Rev Rider (other Forum) has developed a FI system for the C-10.
I can't begin to tell you all he did to make it work, but he did, and it runs like a champ...
I can tell you that your $300 will probably become $900+ before your done.

Ride safe, Ted



Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: B.D.F. on February 14, 2018, 07:21:47 pm
Yep, you can call  me BDF or Jim as you like. And yep, you should study the available information to better understand what is required and the many different ways you may be able to get it to work.

Again, best of luck going forward.

Brian

Well I was talking to you BDF but I couldn't think of a lot of  first names to go with that acronym so I decided to call you Jim instead. If you prefer BDF then ok.

You seem to have a grasp of the techy side of implementing what I want. You understand pulse width and fuel/air mixture ratio control.  So I am glad that you have responded. I took a look at the megasquirt system and it seems to be just what I want to build but .. $250  for just the control CPU it a bit much considering all the sensors, injectors and other addons you need to make a complete system... It's not a turn key solution that is going to be as cheap as I want.

The megasquirt CPU kit might be a great head start to help me with my own design.  And maybe it is worth spending a few hundred more to develop the first article but I need 4 more at about $300 each. 

At any rate I need to do a lot more study before I embark on my own design if at all.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on February 14, 2018, 09:03:51 pm
connie_rider, I did look up some of his posts.  "They" based their retrofit on the megasquirt design. I have looked at the megasquirt solution before and that is one of the expensive ones that i could only afford one of. 

It will cost over a thousand by the time i'm  finished. I am still wanting something <=$300. So I upgrade all my bikes. If someone had a solution that cheap they could sell a zillion of them.

Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on February 21, 2018, 12:03:15 pm
Did some back of envelope sketches and came up wit a parts list of what I think will be needed (other that some hard work)

MAP pressure sensor   ebay hhr   $16.00
Throttle position sensor   ebay    $20.00
Throttle body      $15.00
Fuel Injector x 4   Ebay HHR   $39.00
Coolant temp sensor   Amazon   $10.00
air temp sensor   Ebay HHR   $10.00
Oxygen sensor   Ebay HHR   $17.00
Fuel pump   ebay   $40.00
ECU   home brew   $45.00
Output logic   digikey   $10.00
output drivers   digikey   $10.00
Harnesses wireing Fuses   ebay   $25.00
      
Manifold   Fabricate    $50.00
      
Total $307.00  to start with. Misc probably another $100.00
hmmm. do I really want to do this?
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on February 21, 2018, 01:13:54 pm
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: mikeyw64 on February 21, 2018, 01:17:35 pm
I always thought the giveaway was signing all your posts "Brian" Jim ;)

Yep, you can call  me BDF or Jim as you like. And yep, you should study the available information to better understand what is required and the many different ways you may be able to get it to work.

Again, best of luck going forward.

Brian
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: B.D.F. on February 21, 2018, 01:24:19 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQkpes3dgzg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQkpes3dgzg)

 :rotflmao:

A. Nonymous

I always thought the giveaway was signing all your posts "Brian" Jim ;)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on February 27, 2018, 05:19:31 pm
Thanks for the advice and for taking me serious.
I have 5 bikes here at my house and it is near impossible to keep them all running. I put stabil in all the fuel tanks and I start them all every few days.
At the moment my Honda shadow starts, both of my Concours will start without any coaxing. But neither of my two of the magna's will start although they ran just fine last week.

I have an 84 Magna that I use for experiments, You may remember I removed the front end and replaced it with an adjustable rake last year....I haven't done anything to it since.
That bike has also given me carburetor headaches ever since I brought it home. So it is a good  candidate for a injector experiment.  A prototype could be had for about $400 and a lot of hard work and invention ...The bike is just sitting there and I've got the time.. why not?

And if I can get it working on a V4 Magna its just a short step to get it running on a Connie.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on February 28, 2018, 12:59:19 pm
Best of luck on this.
I haven't a clue on how to do such a build, but I think it would be a lot easier to do the first on a inline 4 {because the carb arrangement}.
If I remember my son's Magna correctly, the front and rear carbs had different jetting to keep the rear cylinder cool?
  If so, you would have to handle that need in your plans, and not with an inline 4.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on February 28, 2018, 04:31:21 pm
I have heard that before but I think it is bull. I dont know where the story started but I have cleaned a lot of  magna V4 carbs and never see a jet that was different between front to back.   I may be wrong because I am not the first person to work on them but they all have the same number stamped on them.

Back to the efi experiment.
Getting the V4 working with EFI will be a challenge for me. Actually getting a lawn mower working is a challenge.  I am a decent garage monkey and can fabricate and wire most anything. So I think the hardware side will be just a bunch of assembly. I am also a decent programmer so I think the programming will not be a problem either.

The biggest hurdle for me will be understanding the algorithms for adjusting the timing and pulse widths of the injectors.  Once I understand it I can code it.  Most designs I see have a look up table based on rpm, load, throttle position, air and water temperature. I just need to understand those relationships very well before I can start writing software.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that both the V4 and the inline 4 Connie use a wasted spark coil setup. Where when one cylinder is the compression stroke ready to fire  its companion sharing the same coil is on the exhaust stroke.  And while that cylinder is on the power stroke it's companion is on the intake stroke.  In fact there is always only one cylinder ever on the intake at any time and its injector should be triggered just a few degrees after his companion was ignited for the power stroke.  Do you follow me?

knowing that the two front cylinders are companions and the  two back cylinders are companions should make building a prototype manifold and injector set-up easier.
 
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 01, 2018, 07:52:24 am
I'll stand corrected on the Magna. Worked on them, only a little, so not much knowledge on how the cylinder's are paired.
Connie is wasted spark. Firing order is 1,2,4,3.
Hope this works out for you. Interesting project.

On the programming etc, BDF could help you far more than I...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 01, 2018, 05:29:56 pm
Here is the skinny on the V4 Magna.
I'm thinking I can cheat on the the injectors and have two cylinders share an injector. And again maybe not. I need to get the carbs off and do some measuring.
 Study, study, study....
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 01, 2018, 06:39:56 pm
You sed; its injector should be triggered just a few degrees after his companion was ignited for the power stroke.

Question; as the timing changes as RPM's increase. Do you want to control injectors by the signal to the plug (that changes) , or the signal at the pick up Coil (which doesn't change)?
ie; Do injectors also change their firing point, based on RPM?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 01, 2018, 08:12:31 pm
From what I have read you want to open the injector just after the intake valve opens and the piston is on the down stroke. That would not change ever unless there was a variable cam.

But you are right the spark timing advances with rpm so the injectors should be timed to the crankshaft sensor and not the spark. I dont think it is critical timing. The next thing that happens after the spark fires is that an intake valve is going to open and a cylinder will begin to suck in air and fuel.  Of course you would like there to be a stream of air to inject the fuel into but I don't think it is that big a deal to fire the injector a little early. What is most important it the amount of fuel you inject . If it is a bit early it will maybe wet the intake valve a little but in milliseconds it will be sucked into the cylinder anyway.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: B.D.F. on March 02, 2018, 10:11:10 am
What you are talking about is timed fuel injection Ted, and it is not usually done that way for the simple reason that fuel injectors are sized to be open around 85% of the time when the engine is using the maximum amount of fuel that it can. And no valve on any engine is ever open 85% of the time, so a great deal of an injector's open cycle occurs with the intake valve closed anyway, no matter when the injection cycle is started. On top of that, the benefits of timed fuel injection are not that great when applied to normal road vehicles, and there is always the risk of stratifying the fuel / air charge inside the combustion chamber if injection cycles are too short at very high engine speeds. In other words, if a much larger injector is used so that only, say, 20% of the injector's capacity is used so that it can deliver a full fuel volume when the intake valve is open.

These concepts get really complicated really quickly. I find the best way to deal with them in general is to basically just do what everyone else already does and use the method in common use for the vehicle in question.

Brian

You sed; its injector should be triggered just a few degrees after his companion was ignited for the power stroke.

Question; as the timing changes as RPM's increase. Do you want to control injectors by the signal to the plug (that changes) , or the signal at the pick up Coil (which doesn't change)?
ie; Do injectors also change their firing point, based on RPM?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 03, 2018, 08:59:05 am
Thanks Brian.
It's taking me some time to absorb what you said.
Still not sure I have it all, but I'll keep pondering it.  :banghead:
NOTE: This is not my build it is gpineau's.
            I'm just enjoying the discussion/learning..

Our previous discussion was just about the trigger point for the injectors.
  gpineau had stated he planed to base his trigger point, of the fire signal (that signal would change with the timing),
  I made the point that the signal from the pick up coil might be better because that signal would not change with
         the ignition timing.
    We agreed that the pick up signal would be the best trigger source.

Still trying to wrap your 85% point, into the plan to use 1 injector to fuel 2 cylinders.. ie; Pondering continues.  :nuts:
      I know 1 injector per pair of cylinders will work, but when to spray the fuel, and for how long is confusing...
         My assumptions are; the (1)  injector will fire each time one of those (2) cylinders is on a intake stroke.
         At 10,000 RPM's, this will happen 10,000 times per minute. {each cylinder would have 5,000 intake strokes)
          An injector sprays at a constant rate, so pulse width determines how much fuel is delivered.
          As RPM's increase, the time that the valve is open becomes shorter.
          If the delivery is a constant rate, but the amount of time is less at higher RPM's, you would have to spray fuel into the
            intake before the valve opens.. (to ensure enough fuel is available when the valve is open)
          Opening the throttle allows more air, so fuel quantity must also increase. (ie; longer pulse width)
          In my mind that suggests your 85% figure indicates; a properly sized injector fires 85% of each rotate {at WOT}.
            That 85% of one rotation needs to be before (and during) the time that the valve is open.
         At 10,000 RPM's, this has to happen 10,000 times per minute, with pulse width, and injector timing varying. {as RPM's change}.
                    Am I on the right track??

NOTE: I am not speaking for gpineau. Just trying to understand a bit more...
          Both of you know more about this than I.
          I particularly want to hear what gpineau thinks about my pondering..
               Good discussion!!

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 03, 2018, 09:24:41 am
Connie_rider.

Those are some good thoughts and are along the same thought I had when I first started thinking about this.  Maybe I am reading too much or thinking too much or both.
But I have come to the conclusion (in my feeble mind) that timing is not that important. What IS important is to get the air/fuel ratio correct. Its not just air and its not just fuel that make things work. Its maintaining the proper air/fuel ratio. If the air flow increases then so must the fuel being injected. If it takes keeping the injector open 100% of the time then that is what needs to be done or get a larger injector.

If you think about it that is what a carburetor does. It does not time anything. I is tuned to mix the proper amount of fuel with the incoming air regardless of the amount of air flowing through. Just keeping the mix right.

I went back and looked at some of the earliest injector designs and they did not time anything. The injector was just a means of spraying fuel into the air. They just sent the proper amount of fuel into the manifold to keep the mix right and it seemed to work pretty well.

So going forward I don't want to overthink this and just stick the the basic idea of delivering fuel to the manifold based on the measured/calculated air flow.

So now I m going to begin. I have been collecting ideas and parts for the past year and now it is time to do something. I am going to start on the manifold. I pulled the carbs yesterday and took some measurements and determined that I can use 1.5 inch pipe to get from the manifold to the intake ports and I am thinking I will use a 4 inch pipe for the manifold/air-box. It will all fit with some room to spare.  I will post some drawing when i get closer to the final design. 
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 03, 2018, 11:15:05 am
I agree about the manifold first.
Also I agree about AFR.
But you can't spray continuously as the mixture would be rich at Idle, and lean at WOT.
  (Carbs, draw fuel at the correct AFR with each intake).
I think; Injector Pulse widths have to adjust with throttle opening, rpm's, (plus others) to maintain AFR.
            If they vary, injection timing has to vary as well. (longer pulses initiate sooner/before the intake stroke)

Just realized your planning 2 throttle bodies.
So, each will have an injector built into it. Good plan..
Have you determined which throttle bodies you'll use?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 03, 2018, 06:51:57 pm
I think I will use one throttle body.  I have a number of carburetors laying around that I could cannibalize to make a throttle body. I have a Volkswagen carb that is just begging to be cut in half. 

The prototype is going to be ugly.
A 4 inch sewer pipe .
Four  1.5 inch pipes to the intake ports.
Dont know if I will mount the throttle body to the side or the top.  Just depends on how it all fits.  Still thinking.
You know if I mount the injectors very close to the intake ports then the throttle body can be anywhere in the vicinity.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 03, 2018, 07:50:35 pm
Now, I'm really baffled...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 03, 2018, 08:46:50 pm
Baffled about?

Something like this manifold.  Its for an inline 4 cyl (like a Connie). But imagine it with holes on both sides of the big pipe to mate up with a V4.
The throttle body can be mounted on top or it could be mounted at  one end .

Gerry
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 04, 2018, 05:52:15 am
Sounds like your talking about using a single downdraft or maybe side draft carb body?
An actual throttle body, with TPS sensor would seem to be easier.
Plus I think you'll need MAP or MAS sensors?

(Downdraft) I just can't figure how it will fit under the gas tank.
2 Injectors? Located where? Probably need to be near the valves.

I'm not saying don't do it. Just don't understand how you can make it work.
NOTE: Not familiar with intake port layout on a Magna.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 04, 2018, 09:10:57 am
I have several ideas in my head. but have a look at this picture. Imagine all the room you have when you remove the carbs and air box. I mean its not a huge but there is plenty of room for a throttle-body and a manifold. The space above the carbs is not all tank. There is a wide opening toward the front of the tank where the air box and filter is now.  Down draft, side draft or obtuse angle ...it doesn't matter.  Just where ever it will fit. There are no carbs or floats or fuel levels to worry about. Just air. 

I plan to use a map sensor mounted somewhere on the manifold.

I have a throttle body off a 95 Hyundai. I will use it because it has the throttle sensor attached . 

The way I see it here are the important pieces of the plumbing. 
1. injectors close to the  intake ports. (although  I have see some designs where the injectors are in the manifold below the throttle body)
2. Throttle body and manifold
3. plumbing to connect 1 and 2.

I'm off today so I have time to move the bikes around and get the victim into the garage to start making real measurements.

This is a multi phase project. There is the mechanical design and fabrication, the electronics piece and then the software programming. I don't expect to finish this for at least a year.  Maybe by the time I finish I will be educated enough to claim I know what i am doing.  :D
 
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 04, 2018, 10:33:01 am
Ok, keep us posted on the progress.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 04, 2018, 12:16:53 pm
Spent an hour rearranging all the bikes to so could get this one into the garage. I laid one of my Connies down in the yard cause I  got stuck in the soft grass.
Got the magna in place and looking in side where the carbs and breather normally would be there is lots of room for experiments.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 04, 2018, 06:14:52 pm
I did some yard work today before getting started in the garage. 
Building a mock up of different ideas for a manifold. 
intake ports are 1.5 inch pipe.
the  small looking manifold is a propane tank.
the larger manifold is a 4 inch PVC pipe. ( I like it better and it will be easier to work with. )
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: kzz1king on March 04, 2018, 08:54:41 pm
Turbo it. Draw thru with one carb
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 05, 2018, 08:34:35 am
OK, I understand the layout better now. There is more room than I thought.
TB will be on 1 side...

One concern, I think the plenum I.D. and runner I.D.'s may be too big.
To keep a good flow velocity, I think: you'll need to use the smaller plenum, or even a smaller one.
                                                       & you may need to go to a thick wall on the runners.

Geez, where's the folks that know about things like this?
I'm totally guessing... But enjoying the discussion.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 05, 2018, 08:46:05 am
kzz1king,

That was my first thought last year. Just put a single carb on top of the manifold. I presented that idea on the V4 Muscle bike forum and was nearly laughed out or the place. They thought it was devolving the bike. Even though I explained that I was sick and tired of cleaning the carbs of the green goop from Colorado gas.  That's when I  decided that I need to do an injector design before they would accept it as a worthy modification.

But I am really doing it for the experience and the education. I will use what I learn to make another for a Concours.  Who knows if i make it good enough it may turn into a product..Ha ha.


Look at all the happy creatures dancing on the lawn,
Imagination sets in , pretty soon I'm singing, due, due, due looking out my back door.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 05, 2018, 09:20:15 am
connie_rider,

So we are talking apples to apples
let's call the plenum the box/pipe/container where everything is connected.
let's call the runners the pipe connecting the intake port to the plenum,
let's call the manifold the plenum and the runners connected together as a single unit.

I'm thinking about what you said about velocity and trying to imagine it in my mind where the velocity is created in a carburetor system. It seems to me that in a carburetor motor there is an air-box connected in some way to the carburetors either directly or through tubes. When connected directly i find there is a tube from the carb into the air box a inch or two long. I think in both cases  the purpose of the tubes is to create velocity into the throat of the carb before mixing with the fuel????

So i think (just thinking) that if there is a few inches of tubing (runners) between the plenum and the injectors the velocity will increase sufficiently to mix the fuel droplets. What do you think of this???

Look at the attached photo. The air-box and velocity tubes on this magna is every bit as big as my makeshift plenum.  Maybe i can include a flare on top of the runners ?
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 05, 2018, 11:27:56 am
You sed;
So we are talking apples to apples
let's call the plenum the box/pipe/container where everything is connected.
let's call the runners the pipe connecting the intake port to the plenum,
let's call the manifold the plenum and the runners connected together as a single unit.
 {We're in agreement; I've been using the same names}

On the stock system each carb has a runner that is about 1" long x 1 1/4" ID.
      So the vacuum pulse from intake valve to carb is almost instant...
On your new system, the manifold is; 4 runners 3" long x 1 3/8" I.D., plus you have a 5" long x 3" I.D. plenum.
      (ie; the total area inside your manifold is huge compared to what you had).
        I think everything needs to be small enough; to keep the air moving quickly in the manifold runners, and to keep pulse timing (at the TB) closer to valve opening.

I'm not saying it right, but each time a valve opens, you will be pulling air from the entire manifold, not just 1 runner.
  (ie; Sounds like an RPM manifold instead of a Torque manifold).

Lastly, your 2 injectors will be where? (In the plenum? in the runners?)

All of this should be stated: "I think", because I'm totally guessing..
  {repeat; Geez, where's the folks that know about things like this?}

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: tweeter55 on March 05, 2018, 11:39:22 am
Just throwing this out there (where?) there. If you design the intake runners too small (to speed thinks up) will you sacrifice top end power because of that restriction?
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 05, 2018, 12:44:44 pm
Agreed.
I'm just saying, do not make them bigger than the I.D. of the stock Runner.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: kzz1king on March 05, 2018, 02:18:05 pm
Draw through turbo systems use a plenum and a single carb all the time. The main difference would be I believe the turbo mixes air and fuel better to prevent dropout. The one I built for an inline 4 900 Kawiworked pretty well. I think the V4 would be tougher to plumb the exhaust to but you would have more height to drain the oil back into the crankcase from the turbo
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 05, 2018, 10:26:51 pm
The velocity stacks on my 98 magna are about 3 .5 inches long and are flared on the end.  On my 87 magna the stacks are only about an inch an a half long. It is not fared on the end and  Is just slightly larger that the mouth of the carb.

The runners that are pictured are just under 3 inches and do not have a flare.

So what are the velocity stacks for? The purpose is to accelerate the air and  force as much air as possible into the cylinder before the valve closes.  I dont think it will matter if that air is from a plenum or open atmosphere.  When the valve opens it is going to rush down the runner where it will mix with the droplets from the injector.
But I can see where the size of the plenum will have a dampening effect on sudden changes in the throttle.

But I dont think it is that critical. I have seen designs where the throttle body, injector and runner was one piece and just a couple inches long.

I have also see designs with very large plenums and long runners like my idea. I will try for the smallest that is feasible to work with.  In the photos the last one is for a Suzuki GSRX

I plan to mount the injectors on a 45 degree angle on the side of the runner. An alternative would be to place the inside the mouth of the runners inside of the plenum.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 06, 2018, 09:08:20 am
Good images and your making a good point that the plenum can be bigger than I thought.
 My understanding is you plan to inject into the plenum?
Looking at your images;
#1 (4) Injectors are at the base of the runners, just above the valves.
#2 (4) Throttle bodies and Injectors are at the base of the runners, just above the valves.
#3 Unknown. (Throttle body could have an injector, but I suspect it has 4 injectors)
#4 (Suzuki) (4) Throttle bodies and Injectors are at the base of the runners, just above the valves.

Velocity stacks are used to increase air velocity/volume before the carbs.

Not trying to shoot your idea's down. Injecting into the plenum will probably be fine.
Just throwing out thoughts.. (& I'm probably over thinking).
If you use 2 injectors, I think I would place them both at the center of your plenum. {with #1 aiming towards the front runners, and #2 aiming towards rear runners}.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 06, 2018, 07:05:40 pm
Its been a terrible day for working on this project. Didnt get time until late this afternoon.
Was up late last night.
I pull into the garage and close the garage door and go into the house. Just as I step into the house I hear a loud noise behind me. I turn around and see nothing unusual. Later my wife tells me the garage door wont open. So after investigating I see one of the torsion springs has snapped and not enough lift to help the garage door opener. So what was going to be an easy 10 minute fix turned into a 4 hour series of bad luck mishaps.

I clamped the broken spring together at the break and then welded it back together. Rewound the spring and did a test. Looked like it was going to work until the door got half way up then it sagged to one side and froze into position.

Turns out when the spring broke the lift cables came off the spools and wrapped themselves around the shaft and kinked in several places. It was bound up tight, half open and tilted on an angle. Couldn't get access to the pulleys because of the door was partly open so I unbolted the top two panels and used the opener to pull them out of the way.

But as Murphy dictates both panels came loose from the railing and now I have two panels dangling from the opener rail bobbing side to side in the middle of the garage.

Oh well I thought I would deal with that later and resolved not to use the opener for assistance. So I managed to get the door straight and level on the floor again, I restrung the cables, and rewound the torsion springs and locked them into place.

Now it is time to reunite the two dangling panels with the rest of the door. I managed with the help of Fiona and two ladders to lift the two panels back onto the rails and straight and level. But I did not want to use the opener because it was too fast and jerky. So I put a rope hoist on the upper panel and tied the other end to a hook in the back wall of the garage. The plan was for Fiona to work the hoist and slowly feed me the panels while I kept them straight and on the rails. All was going so well until the panels reached the downward bend in the railing.

Then the full weigh of the panels pulled the knot out of the rope that secured the hoist to the back wall. The panels came crashing down off the rails completely. One side in the garage and the other outside.

Two more hours and I get the panels back inside the garage and on the rails again. Bolted everything together, gave up and went to bed.

What's the they used to say on hee haw. If it wern't for bad luck........

Then I take my car that my kid wrecked last month to the body shop to get an estimate for the insurance......they said it will probably be totaled.  So I had just a couple hours to myself in the garage this evening. 
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 06, 2018, 08:07:51 pm
Just washed up and uploaded some photos of the plenum I made today.
I am not going to upload photos here because the site cant handle high res photos. I will post links to them at the end of this post.
I  got a piece of 3 in pipe to use as the plenum. It was easy to work with and did not take up that much room.  Drilled the holes for the runners and I surprised myself and didnt mess it up.
Will mount the throttle body to the top of it. Put the temperature sensor inside and the  vacuum sensor wherever there is room.   I also want to put a fuel presser regulator somewhere near here but as it is shaping up there is just enough room for a filter on top of the throttle body unless I mount it on the side.

I am pleased with he way things are fitting together.  I ordered the fuel injector bungs and throttle body so I am at a stand still until they arrive. I will use the time to study the relationships between temperature, rpm, load...etc

photos are here.
https://fuelinjectorproject.shutterfly.com/pictures/28#28
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on March 07, 2018, 04:05:03 am
No pics of the garage door fiasco?  ;)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 07, 2018, 10:08:02 am
My wife took a couple of photos but not impressive. just me standing on a ladder throwing things.. I would rather not relive the moment

Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 07, 2018, 12:28:54 pm
I was just thinking about how cool it would be to put plexiglass ends on plenum and mount the injectors in such a way you could see the spray of fuel and watch it being sucked into the cylinder.  Not only interesting but educational and could lead to clues to tuning the injector timing......Cool? not cool?
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on March 07, 2018, 01:41:45 pm
How would you seal it to stand the heat and fuel solvents?
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 07, 2018, 02:04:59 pm
Wouldn't be cheap, and a leak would ruin your day.
But, if you use (reinforced) glass (cut exactly right), a machinist could thread the plenum ends, and make caps (similar to a flashlight), with O'rings doing the sealing.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 07, 2018, 02:07:44 pm
 It' not to be permanent. I just want a look inside during development.  I plan to use a 3 inch pipe cap when I am done playing. For now I will just use RTV or bathtub calk.

Connie_rider,  My plan all along was to put the throttle body top side center. There is more room there and I can easily come up with a filter that will fit there.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 07, 2018, 09:41:10 pm
An after thought.

Instead of messing with the placements of the injectors to play with the injector timing. ....I can buy another vacuum sensor and attach it to  the cylinder I am interested. By hooking one channel of a scope to the vacuum sensor and the other channel to the injector pulse I can measure the injector time and pulse width to the nanosecond.

This also solves my injector timing problem. 

Before I was going to use the coil firing to tell which set of two cylinders were at TDC . But since the two cylinders share the coil you didn't know which one of the pair was on a power stroke  and which one was on exhaust. 

But with the vacuum sensor hooked up to one of the cylinders I know exactly which one is on the intake and using the firing order I can calculate which cylinder will be next to be on the intake stroke. And knowing the rpm I will know exactly when to pulse the next injector. That sure simplifies things.  Why didn't I think of this before? 

Now it sounds simple. Did I overlook something?
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 08, 2018, 08:00:51 am
Where do you plan to install the vacuum sensor?
If in the #1 runner, there will be some difference there, but the entire manifold will be under vacuum during a intake stroke of any of the cylinders.

Are you still planning to use 2 injectors?
If yes, it doesn't matter.
  (If both front cylinders are at TDC, and you fire the injector, the air/fuel will go only to the one that is on an intake stroke).

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 08, 2018, 10:01:49 am
There is a vacuum port on the side of each cylinder right next to the intake valve. It is normally used for synchronizing the carbs but it would be useful to determine which cylinder is on the intake stroke.

You are right while one cylinder of the pair is on the power stroke the other would be on the intake and would use the fuel from the injector. I want to believe that sharing an injector between cylinders would be enough. But on the magna the pairs are about 5.5 inches apart. Putting the injector between them would put the injector about 6 inches from the intake valve. Its worth thinking about. 

On a Connie the distance between cylinder 1 and 4 would make sharing an injector very difficult to pull off.  But if there is an injector per cylinder the Connie will be a lot easier to work with than a V4 manga.

I am inclined to put an injector on each cylinder, as close to the intake valve as I can get it.  I think this will be less problematic. 

I am still awaiting the arrival of the throttle body and the injector bungs. (not sure I will be using the bungs) . There is so much to do . Connectors, harness, prototype circuit boards. It a lot to keep in your head.  I want to rush it but I know this is going to take forever.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 08, 2018, 12:53:07 pm
{I think}

There is a vacuum port on the side of each cylinder right next to the intake valve. It is normally used for synchronizing the carbs but it would be useful to determine which cylinder is on the intake stroke.
Those ports are located before the valves, and will have vacuum when another cylinder is on intake.
   {because you have a manifold instead of individual carbs or throttle bodies}.

You are right while one cylinder of the pair is on the power stroke the other would be on the intake and would use the fuel from the injector. I want to believe that sharing an injector between cylinders would be enough. But on the magna the pairs are about 5.5 inches apart. Putting the injector between them would put the injector about 6 inches from the intake valve. Its worth thinking about. 
This is what I was worried about around post #34-37. It might be overcome by injecting the fuel a little e bit earlier.
But, you have an intake stroke every 180* of rotation, so {based on BDF's 85% note) part of your fuel charge will probably go to another cylinder. 
NOTE: because the injectors fire so quickly, spraying/fogging the fuel into your plenum may disperse the fuel just fine..

On a Connie the distance between cylinder 1 and 4 would make sharing an injector very difficult to pull off.  But if there is an injector per cylinder the Connie will be a lot easier to work with than a V4 manga.
If you pair injectors as you were planning, 1/2 and 3/4 would be paired.

I am inclined to put an injector on each cylinder, as close to the intake valve as I can get it.  I think this will be less problematic.  
Agreed..

I am still awaiting the arrival of the throttle body and the injector bungs. (not sure I will be using the bungs) . There is so much to do . Connectors, harness, prototype circuit boards. It a lot to keep in your head.  I want to rush it but I know this is going to take forever.
Agreed.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 09, 2018, 07:03:37 am
{I think}

There is a vacuum port on the side of each cylinder right next to the intake valve. It is normally used for synchronizing the carbs but it would be useful to determine which cylinder is on the intake stroke.
Those ports are located before the valves, and will have vacuum when another cylinder is on intake.
   {because you have a manifold instead of individual carbs or throttle bodies}.

You are right while one cylinder of the pair is on the power stroke the other would be on the intake and would use the fuel from the injector. I want to believe that sharing an injector between cylinders would be enough. But on the magna the pairs are about 5.5 inches apart. Putting the injector between them would put the injector about 6 inches from the intake valve. Its worth thinking about. 
This is what I was worried about around post #34-37. It might be overcome by injecting the fuel a little e bit earlier.
But, you have an intake stroke every 180* of rotation, so {based on BDF's 85% note) part of your fuel charge will probably go to another cylinder. 
NOTE: because the injectors fire so quickly, spraying/fogging the fuel into your plenum may disperse the fuel just fine..

On a Connie the distance between cylinder 1 and 4 would make sharing an injector very difficult to pull off.  But if there is an injector per cylinder the Connie will be a lot easier to work with than a V4 manga.
If you pair injectors as you were planning, 1/2 and 3/4 would be paired.

I am inclined to put an injector on each cylinder, as close to the intake valve as I can get it.  I think this will be less problematic.  
Agreed..

I am still awaiting the arrival of the throttle body and the injector bungs. (not sure I will be using the bungs) . There is so much to do . Connectors, harness, prototype circuit boards. It a lot to keep in your head.  I want to rush it but I know this is going to take forever.
Agreed.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 09, 2018, 08:29:55 am
Posted it twice. Were you trying to make a point?  lol

Re: The vacuum sensor on the intake port. it is a sensor and will read the amount of vacuum at that port which will be different than the vacuum of the plenum, (at least for a short time) at the instant the valve opens. I could use the difference between the two sensors to determine which cyl is on the intake  stroke. It's worth a try. 

Using the coil signal only tells me that two cylinders are at the top of the stroke but does not tell me which one will be starting the intake stroke. Short of putting a sensor on the cam I can't think of another way to determine which cylinder is on the intake stroke.. Even the signals from the sensor on the crankshaft can't differentiate between the two cylinders and fires both spark-plugs cause it does not matter firing a cylinder on the exhaust stroke.

I could use just a  couple of injectors and spraying directly into the plenum between the cylinder ports and tune it to work just fine. In fact some of the earlier systems did not time the injectors at all but just fire them all at the same time and got decent results. And that is probably enough for proof of concept on a motorcycle. Maybe its not important to time the injectors to the intake stroke  but I think it will give me more opportunities for adjustments and tuning if I have one injector per cylinder.

(Im on a budget so this is going to take a while)
I ordered the injector driver transistors and they shipped yesterday.  Will be here in a week. got some blank prototyping  bread-boards yesterday. Fuel regulator is on the way.
Eventually I will need the temperature sensor(s) and the oxy sensor, but not necessary for playing with the design. 

The throttle body should arrive today it comes with the position sensor attached.  So I will have something to play with this weekend.

The more I read, the more I learn just how much I don't know....

Baby steps...
Gerry
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 09, 2018, 01:50:58 pm
oh my. I forgot I had bid on a throttle body last week.  Never thought I would  get a brand new 2017 Honda CRV throttle body for $10 but I was the only bidder. I have a lesser quality one that I paid a lot more for arriving today.

I am replacing at least one of the runner tubes with an acrylic pipe so I can see what is going on when the injector fires. 

Sitting around waiting for the postman makes me crazy. He will probably come as I am leaving for work.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 10, 2018, 08:56:02 am
My oops. I keep forgetting that your paired cylinders would be on the same up/down stroke.
If you stay with the 2 injector plan, the pick up coil for each pair, will be your best signal.
If you go to the 4 injector plan, (because the engine is a V) maybe you could use the differing time between pick up coils to determine #1?
ie; I keep thinking the engine fires at 180* increments. But with your V, it is different...
        What is your firing order?
     If 1,2,4,3, Maybe the degrees/time from 3 to 1 is distinctive?

Good deal on the throttle body. Do you know what size it is?
If not, what is the engine size and RPM range of a CRV?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 10, 2018, 04:47:06 pm
 the firing order is 1432
The CRV is 2.4 L

Darn, no throttle body yet.  its 2 days late.
The throttle body I am waiting for is off a 1.5L Hyundai
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 11, 2018, 07:47:36 pm
Got a little work done today.
The throttle body arrived. I measured it for fit and drilled the manifold where it needs to be.
cut some studs from a threaded rod and epoxied them into the plenum. Fit is snug.
Will build up the base platform with epoxy  and seal everything with silicone RTV
I will mount the throttle cable to the side of the plenum coming up from underneath.


Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 12, 2018, 08:15:48 am
Sounds like your making progress. Congrat's..
Any more thoughts on the injectors?
I see little room in the runners.
Wondering if you could place them just below the TB {at the rear} so the incoming air does the most to mix?
  {Appears to offer enough room there..}
How will you supply fuel to them?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 15, 2018, 04:06:56 pm
Finally some parts are starting to arrive. I got an adjustable fuel  pressure regulator, Fuel pump, injector bungs and some hardware accessories.

My original attempt to epoxy the flange to the manifold plenum failed. It looked great but I gave it a heat test and it fell apart. SO this time I am using JB weld high temp epoxy.  Its ugly but it is working.  Did some measuring and found just the right spot to mount the throttle cable. I used the bracket off an old carburetor.
Worked great....No throttle closed, full throttle full open. 

Not sure yet how I am going to deliver te fuel to the injectors yet. I have ordered a used fuel rail that I will probably cut up  and make it fit my layout.  Got some connectors on order and also ordered the power driver circuits but it will take a month to get here from China. 

So soon I will have the mechanical hardware together and start to work on the electronics.  The programming will, I think be the most difficult because I haven't  given it that much thought.yet.

Photos here https://fuelinjectorproject.shutterfly.com/pictures/40
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 16, 2018, 02:42:34 pm
Got some work done on the injector mounting bungs. It's ugly but I think it is going to work.

https://fuelinjectorproject.shutterfly.com/pictures/43
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 17, 2018, 08:31:06 am
Wife says I need to sell one of my concours. I think I will keep the 99 and sell the 95. 

The 99 has a starter issue.  spins the motor for a few revs then disengages and need to try again. Its not a big issue since it is an easy starting bike bit I stll want to get it fixed. Any one with experience on this problem.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 18, 2018, 03:21:08 pm
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I do not think four injector fuel injection can be done for anywhere near $300. Even if you were to grab a used F.I. system from a scrapped bike, it is doubtful the control algorithms would be 'close enough' to correct to work right, and even that would cost more than $300.

But is certainly is an interesting project if you do pursue it. Just as an example, this is a source of both the hardware and software, as well as all the information you need to set up a system should you decide to give it a try:   [url]http://megasquirt.info/[/url] ([url]http://megasquirt.info/[/url])

Brian


I am just thinking out loud and as someone that has some experience I hope you read this and have an opinion.

Seems to me that each vehicle whether motorcycle or automobile has a look up table for setting the fuel injector pulse width based on a number of input variables mainly  air flow.
Many of those look up table are available for download for free. But the problem is that they are for a specific vehicle  and are not optimized for you vehicle, temperature, altitude and gasoline quality.  So to use one of those tables would require you to modify it based on your conditions and which injector you are using and any other parameters that are pecular to your bike..  And It would vary based on the fuel you were using and whether you are at sea level or in the mountains.

So what I am getting at is this, why not use a powerful enough processor that you don't need to use a look up table but calculate the pulse width based on input parameters in real time.  You could input your altitude, engine size, injector size and fuel type and have processor calculate the tables for you.  If you are coming down from the mountains the air density could be calculated. If you change fuel you could flip a switch to tell the computer you are using ethanol . I think there are 32 bit processors with enough processing speed to do all this on the fly.

I mean, where did the look up tables come from in the first place...?  They were calculated from a number of input parameters . So why not use the same formulas and do the same calculations but in real time?

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: B.D.F. on March 18, 2018, 04:24:31 pm
Well, I really do not know where to start but again, I suggest you go to MegaSquirt and 'study up' on this whole topic. You could start with this page: http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mtune.htm (http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mtune.htm)

There are two basic methods to control the air / fuel ration on any I.C. engine: speed- density and Alpha-N. Different devices use different systems but motorcycles generally (I believe always) use one induction system per cylinder (one throttle body, one fuel injector, and they are all isolated) and Alpha- N.

Fuel injectors are either open or closed so 'throttling' is accomplished by PWM or pulse width modulation. All fuel injectors have a flow rating, usually in the very odd 'pounds per hour' units. So, the first thing to do is to figure out how much fuel one cylinder of your engine can possibly ever use, under any circumstances and then get a fuel injector that will deliver that amount of fuel if open 85% of the time. Now you have the top RPM and 100% throttle open point of the look- up table.....

Then you construct a look- up table that corresponds with the RPM of the engine and the throttle opening (the X vs Y grid of the table). So the Y axis is engine RPM and the X axis is throttle opening in percentage.

For a rough tune, you can use the air / fuel ration of 12.5:1 (12.5 units of air for every 1 unit of fuel, measured in MASS, not volume). So for a crude example, if the engine's max. RPM is 10,000 RPM, and of course the max throttle opening is 100%, you will set the injector up to have a PWM ON-time long enough to deliver enough fuel to get to that 12.5:1 ratio. So at 5,000 RPM, the PWM On time is one- half of the 10,000 RPM value (assuming 100% throttle opening). Now of course in the real world it is not that simple and there are a LOT of other variables but let us just keep going with our crude example. So you make a look- up table for each, say, 500 RPM increment between 500 RPM and 10,000 RPM. And each 5% increase in throttle from 0 (which is really not zero because you want the engine to idle when the throttle is closed) and 100% open.

Now add to this the nominal air density measured by an absolute air pressure gauge, crank the data from the look- up table through an algorithm that adds / subtracts depending on the air density (for example, altitude changes) and Viola! you know how long to hold the injector open for each 2 engine rotations (remember, a 4- cycle engine has 720 degrees of rotation per cycle, not 360 degrees).

You will also need what is called a Lambda sensor or O2 sensor to know what the engine is really getting regarding fuel delivery. The more O2 in the exhaust, the more lean the mixture, and vice- versa. The nice Lambda sensors are the Bosch 5- wire types, readily available though you do need some electronics to use the data the sensor puts out and put it in some usable, workable form. Again, many devices on the market to do this.

As Lambda sensors are not fast enough to be used in real- time (about 1/12 th second response time), they cannot be used to actually close the control loop. But they are very useful to make minor corrections to the main control algorithm to 'tweak' the mixture for the exact conditions the engine is operating in. That said, they cannot be used even in an speed- density system above 70% throttle opening, at which point you go over to pure look- up table response and forget about any 'real time' input at all. But the Lambda sensor is invaluable, and I believe unreplaceable, for the initial setup of the system, the look- up tables and so forth.

Once you get to that point, you will have to figure out some other things such as injector lag time, hysteresis and a few other (dozen) natty problems but essentially, you will have a running engine.

You will need to sense the crankshaft position (or camshaft) so that you can 1) sense RPM, 2) sense when 'one cycle' is occurring. This is often done with a scheme called the 'missing tooth' scheme, where there are a series of teeth on the crankshaft that an inductive sensor 'watches' pass but there is one tooth missing; typically the number of teeth is 35 (with the one vacant or missing tooth, making 36 even divisions of 10 degrees each).

Now all of this is just the control loop or algorithm. There is still a lot of work to be done regarding venturi size, runner length, injector position and inclination (angle relative to the induction bore) but these are <relatively> small issues if you just want an engine to "work". The good news is that modern injectors such as the 4 and 5 port Bosch's, are actually outstanding regarding atomization of the fuel so putting the injector a bit in the wrong place or position is pretty forgiving.

But all this is just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. It is a complex and involved subject, even to just do one engine, one time and not even looking for best performance.

The good news is that the PWM nature of fuel injection, along with modern control MPU's, sensors and lots and lots of real- world knowledge make this whole thing much more of a building- block process instead of a solo effort. Which means there are lots of building- block systems as well as knowledge out there to tap into without having to figure all this out.... again. :-) Sorta' like Nicola Tesla did the hard part, all we have to do is follow along and we too can make an induction motor work..... but that first one was a cast- iron B!TCH!  ;D

The first MegaSquirt system I set up used factory injectors in factory T.B.s but I had absolutely no idea what their value was. So I did it 'backwards' and made a look- up table based on 12.5: 1, then varied the size of the injector (in the set- up software) of the MegaSquirt and basically 'backed- out' the injector size. Once that crucial pivot point was reached, the rest was straightforward.

But in all seriousness, if you really want to learn how this stuff works, go read the MegaSquirt manual, concentrating on the Alpha- N part (trust me- that IS the easy one and speed- density is far more complex.... plus it does not work in a multi- induction system such as used on motorcycles).

Best of luck going forward.

Brian

I am just thinking out loud and as someone that has some experience I hope you read this and have an opinion.

Seems to me that each vehicle whether motorcycle or automobile has a look up table for setting the fuel injector pulse width based on a number of input variables mainly  air flow.
Many of those look up table are available for download for free. But the problem is that they are for a specific vehicle  and are not optimized for you vehicle, temperature, altitude and gasoline quality.  So to use one of those tables would require you to modify it based on your conditions and which injector you are using and any other parameters that are pecular to your bike..  And It would vary based on the fuel you were using and whether you are at sea level or in the mountains.

So what I am getting at is this, why not use a powerful enough processor that you don't need to use a look up table but calculate the pulse width based on input parameters in real time.  You could input your altitude, engine size, injector size and fuel type and have processor calculate the tables for you.  If you are coming down from the mountains the air density could be calculated. If you change fuel you could flip a switch to tell the computer you are using ethanol . I think there are 32 bit processors with enough processing speed to do all this on the fly.

I mean, where did the look up tables come from in the first place...?  They were calculated from a number of input parameters . So why not use the same formulas and do the same calculations but in real time?

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 20, 2018, 12:22:21 pm
Thank you for the information. I have already considered megasquirt and had come to the conclusion although it is a great product I simply cant affort the baseline cost of $1000 just to get started. And the whole Idea is to learn and experiment.

The jist of my question was for an opinion on whether or not a more powerful computer could do all the calculation to generate the correct fuel/air ration "on the fly" rather that using a lookup table and then trimming based on current conditions.

I am going through a "big" remake of the plenum. The first one was problematic when it came to attaching the fuel rail. I just couldn't find a reliable clamp that was hardy enough to stay put under the shake test. 

So I started over with a recycled fuel rail off a 600 CC Honda CBR . it is much more solid and the injectors can be swapped out to a number of injectors that share the same footprint. The injectors are no longer spraying directly into the feeder tubs but rather they are spraying into the plenum just over the feeder tubes.

This is going to set me back about a week.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: B.D.F. on March 20, 2018, 01:07:56 pm
Yes, you mentioned the cost of MegaSquirt being too high already; my suggestion was not to buy one but to go to their website and glean the knowledge of how fuel injection systems work. It is the best single source of F.I. information that I know of and the knowledge is entirely free.

Yes, there are sufficiently fast ICUs and even better, MPU's to do real -time calculations with control algorithms. But that is not the reason look- up tables are used; the reason is basically that the entire induction system of any I.C. engine is non- linear and the algorithms would be second order non- linear at that and so very difficult to use for this task. Beyond that, any error, deviation or 'fliers' delivered by any of the sensors would drastically alter the mixture which is absolutely to be avoided and hence, look- up tables are used with rigid parameters around all variables.

Brian

Thank you for the information. I have already considered megasquirt and had come to the conclusion although it is a great product I simply cant affort the baseline cost of $1000 just to get started. And the whole Idea is to learn and experiment.

The jist of my question was for an opinion on whether or not a more powerful computer could do all the calculation to generate the correct fuel/air ration "on the fly" rather that using a lookup table and then trimming based on current conditions.

I am going through a "big" remake of the plenum. The first one was problematic when it came to attaching the fuel rail. I just couldn't find a reliable clamp that was hardy enough to stay put under the shake test. 

So I started over with a recycled fuel rail off a 600 CC Honda CBR . it is much more solid and the injectors can be swapped out to a number of injectors that share the same footprint. The injectors are no longer spraying directly into the feeder tubs but rather they are spraying into the plenum just over the feeder tubes.

This is going to set me back about a week.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 20, 2018, 01:37:01 pm
So, the first thing to do is to figure out how much fuel one cylinder of your engine can possibly ever use, under any circumstances and then get a fuel injector that will deliver that amount of fuel if open 85% of the time.

Brian. You 2 are way above me on the programming. I won't even try to understand.
I do understand what your getting to with the injector sizing.
But I have 1 question. (Relating this to 1 cylinder)
  When you say if open 85% of the time are you meaning 85% of 1  {360*} rotation,
                                                                                                            or 85% of 1 complete cycle {720*} ??

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: B.D.F. on March 20, 2018, 02:24:12 pm
Hey Ted, how are you doing?

One full engine cycle rotation, 720 crankshaft degrees. But it is not the rotation that becomes critical, it is the time available and the precision of the fuel delivered.

A simple example: suppose our imaginary engine turns at a max. speed of 11,000 RPM. That means just under 184 revolutions per second. 184 divided by two is 92, so there are 92 injection cycles per second, and each full engine cycle (720 degrees of crank rotation) will take ~0.011 seconds. Multiply that by .85 (85%) and the window of time to inject one engine cycle's worth of fuel is ~0.009 seconds, or 9 milliseconds. So the injector must be able to inject all the fuel the engine can require at WOT and 11K RPM in 9 milliseconds or less. As injectors are only made in certain incremental sizes, one would just choose the next- larger injector and have the 'right' size for the cylinder / engine in question.

The 85% is not arbitrary either; it is chosen so that there is a comfortable margin for the injector to get dirty, have some pressure fluctuations, have slightly thicker fuel, etc. and still deliver enough fuel. That is why 100% is never used. But neither is, say, 40% for other reasons that become important but are not obvious perhaps.

We talk and think about injectors being open or closed and the transition being instant. In 9 milliseconds, that is close enough to correct to work. But as the engine slows and the throttle is closed, such as at idle, the injector may only be called on to deliver 1/100th of the max. delivery, and in fact, at very small injector delivery rates is where the delivery must be the most accurate. So let's just say that it takes 1/2 millisecond for the injector to open and 1/4 millisecond for the injector to close. While the injector is opening and closing, it is delivering fuel but not the full amount- to keep things simple, let us assume it delivers 1/2 of its fuel capacity during the opening and closing cycles. So for 3/4 of a millisecond, the injector is only providing 1/2 of the fuel we expect but with a 9 millisecond opening, it is not all that critical. But at 1/100th of 9 milliseconds, or .09 milliseconds, we see that we cannot even open and close the injector in that amount of time but also that the opening and closing times become quite critical. That is why a [far bigger than needed] injector is not used, because it becomes almost impossible to control accurately enough at low fuel usage conditions, which is actually the majority of time any road vehicle engine is actually used. That is also why some engines use a pair of injectors per cylinder; a small one used alone at low fuel delivery times, and a larger one that is used when a lot of fuel is needed but extreme precision is not required.  This whole thing is sort of like choosing the right size water valve: a very small one is great for filling eyedroppers but not so good for fighting fires. But the fire hose and valve is not so good for filling eyedroppers. So we have to be careful not only in choosing the correct size injector but also in knowing the lag time (opening and closing) and compensating for that when setting up the mixture tables.

It actually gets much more complicated with a lot of tricky little problems; inside of every large problem, there is a small problem struggling to get out. In controlling the induction system on an engine, there is a little box- full of problems waiting. For example: you are cruising along at low throttle and suddenly open the throttle rapidly. The injectors immediately inject far more fuel, according to the tables and perhaps some external sensors (atmospheric pressure where you are, the temperature, etc.). Let's say the injector suddenly has to provide 30 times as much fuel to the cylinder and it does this. But does all of that additional fuel get into the engine in the first cycle or does some of it coat the induction path walls? So should we inject a little bit extra for, say, the first 5 cycles and then cut back to the 'correct' amount? Or should we inject a bit more for the first 5 cycles, then cut back a little below the 'correct amount' on the next three cycles as that fuel is washed off the port walls, and then inject the 'correct' amount?

Just tuning an already packaged solution that is correctly designed, such as retrofitting the controller on an existing F.I. system, is a challenge. Building one that works reasonably well, at least as well as good carburation, using self- chosen parts, would take some time and effort to be sure.

Brian

So, the first thing to do is to figure out how much fuel one cylinder of your engine can possibly ever use, under any circumstances and then get a fuel injector that will deliver that amount of fuel if open 85% of the time.

Brian. You 2 are way above me on the programming. I won't even try to understand.
I do understand what your getting to with the injector sizing.
But I have 1 question. (Relating this to 1 cylinder)
  When you say if open 85% of the time are you meaning 85% of 1  {360*} rotation,
                                                                                                            or 85% of 1 complete cycle {720*} ??

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 20, 2018, 03:05:18 pm


Just tuning an already packaged solution that is correctly designed, such as retrofitting the controller on an existing F.I. system, is a challenge. Building one that works reasonably well, at least as well as good carburation, using self- chosen parts, would take some time and effort to be sure.

Brian
That is exactly what I am doing. I do not pretend to know everything I need to know starting out. But I intend to finish and when I am done I will know everything I need to know to repeat it on my other bikes. I know it is a challenge and  it gets me excited knowing I am doing something that I have never done before and learn a lot in the process.  I have bee all over megasquirt's manual and  I have read every scrap of information I can find on the internet. I am not getting any smarter but I am beginning to get the big picture forming in my head.

 Its a big complicated project. Mechanical, electrical and programming. I don't expect to be done with this for a very long time. I just scrapped everything I have done so far and started over because I couldn't build a reliable fuel delivery system from the parts and tool I have.  It's a good thing because I learned something. Besides it was really ugly.

I see your point now about using look up tables. If using real time calculations a sensor going haywire could really muck things up,

I have not yet decided to use Alpha-N or speed density.  I am still reading reviews on the different method. I could settle on a hybrid system .....I am not close to that problem yet. I still need to get the manifold, injectors and fuel plumbing done before I begin the electronics. By then I will have a pretty good picture of the the programming that needs done. 
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: B.D.F. on March 20, 2018, 03:30:38 pm
There really is no choice; speed- density is only practical on plenum based systems. Motorcycles are always based on individual induction ports without a common plenum. Speed- density is not practical if using multi- runnier intakes on relatively small engines due to the pulse effect so that leaves only the multi induction port system using Alpha- N for the control method. It is not a case of which works best, it is a case of achieving good running characteristics for a given type of engine.

A plenum system <could> be used on a motorcycle of course but throttle response will suffer, and it will get worse as one moves away from an in-line four toward something like a Vee engine. The induction paths are too long and vary too much in length from the shortest to the longest. The key here is that while we think of air as having no mass, it really does have some and so moving the T.B. close to the intake port and placing the injector such that it is basically injecting 'downstream' and close to the intake is the preferred way to go.

Of course this all assumes you are trying to build a system that works well (seriously, not sarcastically). If performance and throttle response are not important to you, you can absolutely go the plenum route and use either one or multiple injectors, as you wish. One quasi- fuel injector (more like a 'dribbler') in a large plenum was very common in the early days of electronic fuel injection and was the fore- runner of multi- port injection systems now in common use. They absolutely work.

I know you did not ask but I will offer that the best way to proceed with retrofitting a motorcycle, IMO, would be to get throttle bodies and fuel injectors from an existing design with a similar cylinder size as what you have and adapt it. That way the T.B. and fuel injectors are sized appropriately, located appropriately and have the great advantage of being known to work on a similar application. Then you could concentrate on the code and 'tweaking' of the system to get it to work on your own motorcycles. Just a thought.

Brian


<snip>

I have not yet decided to use Alpha-N or speed density.  I am still reading reviews on the different method. I could settle on a hybrid system .....I am not close to that problem yet. I still need to get the manifold, injectors and fuel plumbing done before I begin the electronics. By then I will have a pretty good picture of the the programming that needs done.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 20, 2018, 03:45:52 pm

I know you did not ask but I will offer that the best way to proceed with retrofitting a motorcycle, IMO, would be to get throttle bodies and fuel injectors from an existing design with a similar cylinder size as what you have and adapt it. That way the T.B. and fuel injectors are sized appropriately, located appropriately and have the great advantage of being known to work on a similar application. Then you could concentrate on the code and 'tweaking' of the system to get it to work on your own motorcycles. Just a thought.

Brian
That is exactly my intent long term. This project is to prove out the electronics and the programming. I am doing it on this V4 Magna because it is a spare bike I use for experiments.

I do not want to do practice surgery on either of my connies. I have been gathering parts already for my connie but I wont touch it until I am through with this project.

And you know if I am successful there are thousands of 1980s-1990s motorcycles sitting in garages and sheds that could be resurrected by duplicating what I am doing.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on March 24, 2018, 09:25:47 am
Hey Ted, how are you doing?

One full engine cycle rotation, 720 crankshaft degrees. But it is not the rotation that becomes critical, it is the time available and the precision of the fuel delivered.

A simple example: suppose our imaginary etc etc etc,,,,

Hi Brian.   Decided to add a note here.
As I said, I can't touch ya'll on the programming, but can follow/offer thoughts with the build etc.
Interesting discussion...!!

One thing I want to bring us is the sizing of the injectors. You talked about the importance of them not being be too big and got into the pules widths.
But I don't think you went in the basic; why that is so important...
I think the reason for that is; too large of injector isn't precise when small amounts of fuel are required.
    {For most riders, that is probably over 90% of the time)..

Bottom line, he'll need injectors that are capable of supplying enough fuel at WOT/etc, but it is essential to "not" use injectors with too much capability.  Particularly when spraying into a combined Plenum.
        Right???   :o

I'm guessing the size of his Throttle Body is of similar importance?

PS: I tried to PM or Email you several times with no luck. Can you contact me..?

Gpineau; Keep up the good work. I'd love to see you make this workable!!
              I'm still concerned your assembly methods might not hold up for a prototype.
               "But" I also understand why your building the "proto" in this manner.
                   Fingers crossed that you can figure it all out!!  :thumbs:

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: B.D.F. on March 24, 2018, 10:29:43 am
Yep, I mentioned all that and gave simplistic examples. The problem is controlling a large injector at 1% of its capacity, accurately. Plus the opening / closing time becoming critical at low fuel deliver rates.

Throttle body size is less critical overall. But they are sized to keep velocity reasonably high at WOT, and the entire induction circuit is designed with fuel path, swirl, cylinder filling and how well the fuel droplets are distributed in the cylinder in mind (it tends to stratify which is usually bad if left to happen on its own but can be used to fantastic advantage if done on purpose- Honda's CVCC was a brilliant example of using this principle to advantage).

Yeah, my PM's are shut down because people try to buy product through that route and it is messy on my end (people's forum names do not correspond to their PayPal name, no mailing address, etc.). Nothing to do with you or anyone else, it is the function that is shut down, you are not 'shut out'. But I am easy to e-mail, from either forum and my e-mail appears right next to the PM button.

Y'all take care down there in TX!

Brian



Hi Brian.   Decided to add a note here.
As I said, I can't touch ya'll on the programming, but can follow/offer thoughts with the build etc.
Interesting discussion...!!

One thing I want to bring us is the sizing of the injectors. You talked about the importance of them not being be too big and got into the pules widths.
But I don't think you went in the basic; why that is so important...
I think the reason for that is; too large of injector isn't precise when small amounts of fuel are required.
    {For most riders, that is probably over 90% of the time)..

Bottom line, he'll need injectors that are capable of supplying enough fuel at WOT/etc, but it is essential to "not" use injectors with too much capability.  Particularly when spraying into a combined Plenum.
        Right???   :o

I'm guessing the size of his Throttle Body is of similar importance?

PS: I tried to PM or Email you several times with no luck. Can you contact me..?

Gpineau; Keep up the good work. I'd love to see you make this workable!!
              I'm still concerned your assembly methods might not hold up for a prototype.
               "But" I also understand why your building the "proto" in this manner.
                   Fingers crossed that you can figure it all out!!  :thumbs:

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 24, 2018, 09:36:49 pm
Working the last few days an did not have a chance to do anything further.  I am working tomorrow  too so not much progress this week.  Since I threw out the old plenum I have been experiment with a smaller configuration that will place the injectors nearer the intake ports. It will still be a plenum with a single throttle body but the injectors should be spraying directly into the runners. Problem is being a V4 I will have to break up an existing fuel rail and connect between the pieces with hose. Ugly but is will work.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on March 31, 2018, 01:11:24 pm
Finally had some time to do some calculations on this.  The magna v4 700 cc engine was rated at 81 hp. so I found a website that you can enter your engine data and it will calculate the injector size you need. That was handy.  It said that I needed an injector the can deliver 125cc/minute @ 80% duty cycle. Which works out great cause the injectors I have are rated @ 200 cc/min which means I can fill the fuel requirement at just 63% duty cycle. !!

I have the injectors and a fuel rail that I will cut up and connect the pieces with fuel hoses.

Project is on hold for a while because I need to repair my truck.  It has a knocking cam phaser and it barely will run. Parts on order and will arrive next week. When ii rains it pours.

http://www.fuelinjector.citymaker.com/Fuel_Injector_Flow_Rates.html (http://www.fuelinjector.citymaker.com/Fuel_Injector_Flow_Rates.html)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on April 01, 2018, 05:20:40 am
That was handy.  It said that I needed an injector the can deliver 125cc/minute @ 80% duty cycle. Which works out great cause the injectors I have are rated @ 200 cc/min which means I can fill the fuel requirement at just 63% duty cycle. !!

That's exactly what we've been talking about on the injector sizing. I suspect your injectors are too big.
See my previous post; One thing I want to bring us is the sizing of the injectors. You talked about the importance of them not being be too big and got into the pules widths.
But I don't think you went in the basic; why that is so important...
I think the reason for that is; too large of injector isn't precise when small amounts of fuel are required.
    {For most riders, that is probably over 90% of the time)..

Bottom Line; Your injector {that can supply the 125cc/min in a 63% duty cycle} might not be able to provide a precisely controlled amount of fuel at low RPM's. You may have great WOT, but poor low rpm/low throttle opening control.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 01, 2018, 09:22:55 am
Ok, I see your point but this is not an order of magnitude out of whack. To use the analogy of B.D.F. of the eyedropper vs. the fires hose. It is not even close. This is only  17% away from perfect. This sort of differences can be compensated for by lowering the fuel pressure a tad. 

I want to experiment with the injector before I actually install it by  building a mock up to see exactly what the injector can deliver at full open. I can adjust the pressure to dead nuts on.  But it will still need tweaking because of other variables.  I am not worried about the injector size at this point. I have it within 17% of perfect and that is good enough.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on April 02, 2018, 08:26:30 am
You have a good point. I agree it's probably good enough for prototype.
My concern is your going to want the prototype to run smooth at all throttle settings.
  If it doesn't, you'll have to figure out why.
If the injector size is closer to the correct size, it would remove a variable.

Keep tinkering. Your doing great.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 03, 2018, 08:48:54 pm
This one looks a lot better than my first try and it is going to fit much better as well.
I will be mounting the injectors in the plenum directly across from the runner. They will be about 4 inches from the valve but will be pointy directly down the intake runners. .
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on April 04, 2018, 09:01:29 am
Yepp, starting to look like it's possible....
I can't imagine how many measurement's were done to determine the fit.

Keep tinkering, we're watching...
  Ride safe, Ted

PS: BDF, I sent you an Email. Did it reach you?
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 04, 2018, 09:12:39 am
What?  Measure. What's that?   :D  Just close my eyes and start cutting...lol

Yes it is a lot of geometry to get it right.  It is snug and solid even without the clamps.  Long way to go to complete.

Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: B.D.F. on April 04, 2018, 11:11:13 am
Yep, got it and replied yesterday. The e-mail address I have for you is questionable so you may have to shoot me your e-mail address and I will re-send the e-mail.

Brian

Yepp, starting to look like it's possible....
I can't imagine how many measurement's were done to determine the fit.

Keep tinkering, we're watching...
  Ride safe, Ted

PS: BDF, I sent you an Email. Did it reach you?
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 04, 2018, 03:37:50 pm
Today activities.
Started building a fuel injector test/measure jig. I have a pump, regulator and a fuel rail. I will build a precise timer circuit that will turn on and off the injector so I can get accurate volume measurement  cc/min..

Got the vacuum/temperature sensor today and mounted it to the manifold next to the throttle body.
Made a clear window for looking inside the manifold while things are happening.

high res photos here. https://fuelinjectorproject.shutterfly.com/pictures/60
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 08, 2018, 09:11:12 pm
Finished up the injector test jig.
Built a timer that will turn on the injector for 10 seconds.
Build a small gas tank of PVC pipe and mounted the fuel pump inside.
Marked the measurement vessel at 2.5, 5, and 10 cc increments.

Ran out of time to test it and I need to work tomorrow but I should be able to get some time to work on it this week.
Should be able to turn on the pump, set the pressure gauge, press the start button and when it stops measure the amount of fuel in the vessel and multiply by 6 to get the number of CC/Minute.  (excess fuel pressure is shunted  back to the tank)

I did my best to set the timer to exactly 10 seconds but it was tricky. I subed an LED for the injector and took a video then reviewed the video to see the exact time the LED turns on and off. I measured it at 10.004 seconds and called it good enough.

High res photos here., https://fuelinjectorproject.shutterfly.com/pictures/68

Timer measurement test.  https://youtu.be/-1rv5-9QzRw

Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 09, 2018, 11:18:13 am
Sometimes I surprise myself. This tester actually worked! 

I was able to set the fuel pressure and fire up an injector and measure its output over 10 seconds.
I tested two different brands of injectors. One was way overkill it was 236 cc/min and I only needed 125 cc/min. The second one I tested came close to the specs for the ninja 635. it came in at 192 cc/min at 43 psi. So I will be using the ninja injectors. I have a lot more experiments in my head about measuring the spray pattern and volume delivered over a rang of lower pressures. The injector I will be using has plenty of margin. I can lower the pressure some and dial it into exactly what is needed at 80% duty cycle. I just need to make sure the spray pattern does not suffer from the lower pressure.

From the video I see that the spray pattern is about 60 degrees and will completely cover the diameter of the intake tubes at the distance they will be from the valve. Probably get some spray hitting the inside of the plenum unless I can get them closer to the intake tubes.

In the video I was testing the ninja injectors and i found one of the 4 was under performing.  Not sure what to do to fix it but I am hoping for some suggestions. Maybe just some carb cleaner will do the trick. The video ended short because of an operator error. I tested all the injectors but forgot to hit the record button. 3 measured 192 cc/min and one bad one measured 147 c/min.

the video is here. https://youtu.be/3bbu6AfAPQ8

 After reviewing the video again I can see the "bad" injector is sputtering. I am wondering that maybe I had air in the fuel rail that was gone at the completion of the test. I do need to retest that injector.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 09, 2018, 12:15:24 pm
Set the regulator at 38 psi, cleared the air and now all 4 injectors are delivering 162 cc/min.  So that works out that the needed 123 cc/minute can be supplied at 77.9% duty cycle. 
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on April 09, 2018, 12:20:12 pm
I gotta ask .... what do you do in real life? I find this work you're doing fascinating.  :thumbs:
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: B.D.F. on April 09, 2018, 02:07:25 pm
That is a reasonable size ratio and should work fine.

You can clean dirty injectors by soaking them in solvent, then flushing them in both directions (fuel in the normal way, then fuel in through the nozzle or 'backwards') while cycling the injector open and closed rapidly. They usually clean up very well and can be determined to be clean both through the volume delivered as well as the atomized spray pattern they put out. The testing is usually done in large, clear tubes using mineral spirits (though gasoline will work, it is just more flammable) and watching the spray pattern.

Brian

Set the regulator at 38 psi, cleared the air and now all 4 injectors are delivering 162 cc/min.  So that works out that the needed 123 cc/minute can be supplied at 77.9% duty cycle.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on April 09, 2018, 05:41:45 pm
Sounds like your making great progress.
I used to test injectors during fuel tests I did at Shell. Your set up is similar to what we had.
I have a question on your pump and regulator.
 Are you bypassing extra fuel back to the tank, or dead heading, and controlling pressure after your regulator?

What I'm wondering is; will you be able to maintain the pressure/volumn as requirements change during run cycles?

Ride safe, Ted



Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 09, 2018, 06:39:43 pm
I gotta ask .... what do you do in real life? I find this work you're doing fascinating.  :thumbs:

I was a Electrical engineer/ manager most of my career.  I designed computer system and wrote software at the hardware level.  I retired in 2009 due to health. I tried to stay busy flipping old motorcycle and trucks but it didn't keep me from sitting on my butt in front of a computer most of the day.  So recently I started back to work at Home depot. (part time)....

 connie_rider,  the regulator is set up to bypass the excess pressure back to the tank and that seems to be working. I have tested the pump full on and it gets  up  to 80 psi so I think it is enough to keep all 4 injectors running. . Its not a very good regulator though. After adjusting it and then turning off the pump, the next time the pump starts the pressure is different. This happens every time I cycle the pump on and off.  So it's time to get a more expensive regulator.

I still have a third set of injectors to test. Maybe they will get closer to the size I need for the 700cc magna. I hope in the end that this works well enough to retrofit my 1999 connie.  I learn something new every day.


B.D.F. Thanks for the info about back flushing. What sort of solvent do you use. I use  Berrymans B12 cleaner for just about everything.

Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 10, 2018, 09:19:50 am
Help!

Do we have any material science guys out there in Connie land?

I need to find a flexible sealant that is impervious to gasoline.  I am trying an experiment with different types of glue/sealers/epoxies to see which ones are going to last.
The reason is that I used silicone rubber on my measurement flask yesterday and by the third test it began leaking at the bottom.

This is really bad news because the air plenum and the runner tubes are sealed with large quantities of silicone rubber. If they soften and come loose big pieces are going to be sucked into the intake port. For sure I need to disassemble them and reassemble with a more resistant sealer.  I think the JB-Kwik weld will do the trick but it is very rigid and not forgiving of mistakes. I am looking for a flexible sealant with the correct properties.


Help ! 
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on April 10, 2018, 09:26:08 am
How about an RTV used for valve covers?
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 10, 2018, 09:59:29 am
Thanks, gPink.

searching other forums it looks like Permatex high temp red gasket maker is resistant to gasoline. Wish I had know the regular silicone sealant was not before I coated the inside of the plenum with it... Well now I know.  Lesson learned.

What time I have left before going to work I will use to strip the silicone rubber out of the plenum and order some Permatex red from amazon.

https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/gasket-makers/permatex-high-temp-red-rtv-silicone-gasket/ (https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/gasket-makers/permatex-high-temp-red-rtv-silicone-gasket/)

Tested a third set of injectors (secondary injectors off a ninjx zx600) they are putting out 144 cc/min @43 psi which is closer to what I need for this motor.


Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 10, 2018, 12:29:45 pm
Cleaning the plenum of silicone rubber is not possible. It is bound for the trash can.  I am getting better at making these things. The first one took days, the second 4 hours. I made a new one in about 30 minutes.  Cant put it all together until the new gasoline resistant sealant arrives in 3 days.

Meanwhile I have chosen the 147 cc/minute injectors and I will be making a fuel rail to hook them up on the plenum.

Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on April 10, 2018, 01:54:50 pm
I can feel your frustration..
     Keep tinkering your getting there.   :thumbs:

Are you planning to use an ECU from another bike to control the injectors etc?
If no, what do you intend to use?


Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 11, 2018, 09:35:32 am
I can feel your frustration..
     Keep tinkering your getting there.   :thumbs:

Are you planning to use an ECU from another bike to control the injectors etc?
If no, what do you intend to use?


Ride safe, Ted

No, I think trying to make a preexisting solution to fit my particular problem may be more work than just making one from scratch. I would have to reverse engineer an existing system and figure out how to make it behave in my setup. Its possible but I would rather start from scratch and build something where I have complete control of the hardware. 

Like everything else I have done so far I will role my own. There are  multiple single board processors to choose from. Almost every semiconductor manufacturer has development boards to support their controller chips. 

I am looking at a 32 bit micro-controller that is supported by the latest offerings from Arduino.  I have made a preliminary design with this.

I am also looking at a controller chip from Texas Instruments.  They also offer development kits and support to get it up and running and so i can easily make changes.

Which ever controller I choose it must support C and python programming languages.

As far as the hardware for driving the injectors I am experimenting with a couple of chips from Texas Instruments a  TPIC46L02,  low-side predrivers, and a TPIC2601  a power DMOS array. I have samples of each. Just looking at the power driver it seems too small to dissipate the heat I think it will generate. But TI specs it to drive up to 6 injectors. The predriver is also tiny it will be a challenge to solder to those tiny little legs. 

I haven't given this a lot of attention yet because i want to get a solid mechanical fuel delivery system before I change focus to the electrical hardware.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on April 11, 2018, 10:40:14 am
Your way over my head on this....
Anxious to see if it all works out!!

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 12, 2018, 01:36:30 pm
Finished the fuel line hook up and got the injectors securely mounted.  Put it to the test at 40 psi for 30 minutes, NO LEAKS. I am surprised.

high res photos https://fuelinjectorproject.shutterfly.com/pictures/91

Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on April 12, 2018, 02:11:11 pm
Looks good.

I have to go back to the regulator question though.
On the fuel systems we used for testing automotive fuels, the regulator was installed after the fuel rail.
This maintains the set pressure before the regulator and bypasses unused fuel back to the gas tank.
(This is the way fuel pressure was normally regulated on automobiles...)

Your system has the regulator before the fuel rail and your fuel is dead heading into your fuel rail.
I think this means, your set pressure is after the regulator.
 When your fuel pressure changes {because of changes in demand} the pressure will react slower and be less consistent.

NOTE: Be sure to buy a regulator that is specifically rated for gasoline..

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I understand that the photo you show was for testing. Just wondering how you'll handle the actual fuel system.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: B.D.F. on April 12, 2018, 04:32:26 pm
Whatever F.I. solvent (cleaner) I happen to have on hand. Mix it about 50/50 with gasoline and let it soak after several cycles and it will really loosen up all the deposits.

Mostly though I just send them out for cleaning / testing / refit (they can change the coils in them, or just replace a defective injector) as the price is very reasonable and the service has always been excellent. This is for gasoline injectors; for diesel injectors, I clean and re-seal the seats myself but still using any F.I. (gasoline) solvent mixed with gasoline.

Brian


B.D.F. Thanks for the info about back flushing. What sort of solvent do you use. I use  Berrymans B12 cleaner for just about everything.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 12, 2018, 05:08:40 pm
This is going to be a challenge. I need to fit a battery, electronics, a gas tank and fuel pump in here..... Everything else is fitting nicely.

I think i will make a small tank not much bigger than the fuel pump. Run a gas line from the main tank down to a smaller on where the filter and stock fuel pump is now.

The manifold looks cool with  the acrylic ends so you can see right through it. It will be interesting to see what is happening inside with the motor running.... But it just occurred to me ...first time it backfires it's going to blow those two windows off...
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on April 13, 2018, 07:08:57 am
Your doing great.
Not much room to work in!!

Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: qman on April 15, 2018, 06:50:23 pm
"first time it backfires it's going to blow those two windows off"
Yes, but you get to go out with a blaze of glory!

Have you tested the abs and acrylic with "sealant" by soaking them in fuel for an extended time to see how it holds up?
If this puppy backfires and you have all this fuel soaked material....I do believe you are courting disaster.

 :o
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 17, 2018, 11:28:20 am
Permatex Permashield is fuel resistant.  ABS is not resistant to gasoline however I have a chunk of it soaking in gasoline for two days and it is still holding up. According to literature I  can find it will eventually soften and become spongy.

But it really doesn't matter. This is a prototype. Everything you see it temporary and will be replaced with metal.

ABS is great for fast prototypes, It is easy to work with, forgiving of mistakes and cheap enough you can throw it away if your mistake is too big to fix. (I've done it twice already)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 18, 2018, 03:57:22 pm
Ok. I'm giving in. I tested the ABS pipe material for 72 hours submerged in gasoline and found that it did (the surface) became soft enough that i can leave a mark with my fingernail. So heeding all the warnings I am converting it all over to steel. But I will not have the acrylic window into it like before. I am thinking of leaving a bolt in one end so I can put my bore camera inside if I want.

I am going to have to farm this one out. I suck at brazing. Especially on thin metal.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: qman on April 19, 2018, 06:58:20 am
You would be better off to use silver solder. Brazing will likely crack with the vibrations.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 19, 2018, 11:20:33 am
You would be better off to use silver solder. Brazing will likely crack with the vibrations.
Ok, I'll try that. I should be able to solder it myself. Waiting on UPS to deliver the 1.5" steel pipe.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 19, 2018, 03:31:56 pm
I have the beginnings of the fuel pump and return tank.  I was going to use ABS but since my experiment I have decided to use steel.

I cut a propane tank down about 2 inches. fuel pump, filter fit inside nicely and it all will fit in the area where the old fuel filter was.

Been practicing with the silver solder....I need improvement. Wish me luck.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 19, 2018, 08:03:31 pm
Just pulled the original tank out of storage.  It is a mess. Rusted beyond belief.  I put 3 gallons of vinegar in it an will let it set for a week. Take it to the car wash and pressure wash the insides. I hope it is not too far gone. I just watched a few videos on youtube and I think i will buy a gallon of evaporust at harbor freight. If you can believe the videos it may clean it. Anyone with experience with this product? 
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 20, 2018, 05:21:36 pm
Just finished the plenum for the 4th time. This one is all metal. Thanks for the tip on silver solder. I was able to do it myself.  The metal one is much harder to work with and does not forgive mistakes. It does not fit as well as the ABS version but the runners give it some flexibility.  This took the better part of a day. It is slightly smaller than the ABS one so I need to adjust the length of the runners to get it centered.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 21, 2018, 10:35:05 am
Updated the high res photo albums.... https://fuelinjectorproject.shutterfly.com/pictures/99

Been experimenting with this for a while now. The complete history https://fuelinjectorproject.shutterfly.com/pictures
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on April 22, 2018, 06:43:07 pm
Looking Good!!
No experience with the Harbor Freight remover.
Some have electroplated the inside of their tanks with a coating. (I think Zinc)
Haven't done so myself, but seems like a good idea and EZ to do..

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 24, 2018, 06:23:31 pm
After a few days of soaking in vinegar I dumped it out into a bucket through a paint filter. Got about a quarter pound of rusty chunks. Though that would hav ecleaned it up but when I looked inside I cant see any improvement. So I put it all back in and wait another week.

Meanwhile today was my day off. So after i finished shutteling my wife around to her appointments I had a little time to finish up the plenum.  I got the injectors mounted and the fuel rail plumbing finished. It looks a lot better than the plastic prototype. I have one more part to solder in but i cant find one. I need a small vacuum port to run a line from the plenum back to the fuel regulator.  All I can find locally are made of plastic. I am afraid it will snap off first time it is bumped. Preferably brass or steel.  ANYONE???

The injectors a centered in the throat of the runners about 1.75 inches from the runner opening and about 5.5 inches from the stem of the intake valve.  I imagine there is going to be a good mixing of fuel an air in the 5 inches.  Wish I had a window in the end to put a camera to.

Oh BTW. The acrylic tube i was using in my injector tester jig. After a few uses it cracked in a dozen pieces and fell apart. So next time use glass, not plastic.
Thank goodness I was finished with my testing.



Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on April 25, 2018, 08:05:14 am
On your progress,  looks great!

While your soaking the tank, throw a handful of small nuts in,,,,,   and shake the "XXX" out of it.
Will help dislodge the corrosion.
NOTE: Count the nuts before and after..
Are you going to do a sealer coating inside the tank after you get it clean?

On the brass nipple, maybe a "Home Depot", but best to find an old style hardware store.
{In Houston we have "Ace Hardware"}. They carry items that the large places like Home Depot don't...
They will have metal fittings like you need.
My guess; Something like a 1/8" NPT x 1/8" (or 1/4") hose nipple?

After you get thru soldering, I suggest a leak check to ensure that all is sealed.
Plug everything with rubber plugs/etc and do a bubble test with low pressure air.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 25, 2018, 12:39:00 pm
Thanks for the advice. I will find some loose hardware to throw in there.

I just finished up the plumbing on the fuel rails and injectors. Ran it at 40 psi for 15 minutes and NO LEAKS. Took the opportunity  to see what sort of patter will be hitting the back of the intake valves. I am very happy with this. It is spraying straight down the runner and the pattern looks nice to me. I am sure there will be much better atomization under vacuum.

Take a look..... Latest test https://youtu.be/pr5m2zO6zvc (https://youtu.be/pr5m2zO6zvc)

Playlist I am compiling of the entire project. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9ZAieLe6zonSleaj5i7FP0fbTPn_Uqb9 (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9ZAieLe6zonSleaj5i7FP0fbTPn_Uqb9)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on April 25, 2018, 02:32:08 pm
Good stuff!
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: qman on April 25, 2018, 04:59:24 pm
you may want to pressure test the plenum to make sure that your solder joints are sealed properly. Ü
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 25, 2018, 05:36:31 pm
you may want to pressure test the plenum to make sure that your solder joints are sealed properly. Ü

Thanks,  All the joints looked good but to be sure that there are no vacuum leaks I coated the seams of all joints with Permatex RTV. I think it is all good but I will test for leaks the old fashion way using carb cleaner on the joints while it is running.


Regarding the tank.... :-\.  I think it is a lost cause. After 4 more days of soaking in vinegar it all came out black. I took it to the car wash and watch huge chunks of rust come out of the hole where I removed the fuel gauge sensor. That did clean it up a bit but I can still see a rash of rust spots inside. I put fresh vinegar inside and I can see several places where the vinegar is leaking out on the bottom of the tank.  It doesnt surprise me when I first got it i pulled the carbs and found piles of rust in the bowls. It had ben sitting for over 10 years when I found it.
 My only hope is to coat the outside with petrol proof epoxy and even if it worked I wouldnt trust it not to start leaking again. I should go shopping for a replacement.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 26, 2018, 01:23:17 pm
Got the fuel regulator mounted to the side of the tank and it actually fits in next to the battery.

https://youtu.be/_kzEaaSa7V4
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on April 29, 2018, 04:33:27 pm
I am at the end of the design/assembly of the fuel delivery. I have a plenum, injectors fuel-pump and regulator all finished and installed. Last piece was to test the MAP and temperature sensor.

Now it is time to put together the electronics that controls all this stuff. It is time to put on my electrical engineers hat. I have a hardware design in mind but I have not even begun the software development. In my mind this is where 90% of the effort is to be done and I have been procrastinating too long about getting started. I probably wont post here while I work on those details. But I will be back periodically when I meet major milestones.

As far as posting code. I will not offer up my code to scrutiny and ridicule. My coding style is a my own style and does not suit snobbish engineers but it works well. I think if I am proud of it then i would share the binary for those that supported and encouraged me. (you know who you are) .

Back later.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on April 29, 2018, 06:19:21 pm
I'm not an engineer or a code monkey but I can offer up ridicule and humiliation with the best of them.  ;D Let me know if you need your spirits lifted.  8)

Check in and let us know how it's going.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on May 02, 2018, 09:18:29 am
The throttle body kept falling off. 

The  thought was to push a piece of the runner into the bottom of the body and hold it in place by pounding a steel pipe into the bottom. Miserable failure.


Ended up making a steel mount that mates the top of the plenum and sealed with a boot. I also added a stiffener between the plate and the frame. Now it is solid and wont move .
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on May 05, 2018, 08:24:02 pm

I decided to use the Arduino Duo board for the first prototype ECU. It is probably way overkill for this but I it is a versatile board with lots of I/O pins and features I may need. Also I dont want to have to restart when I find that a lesser processor cant keep up. If I am successful and it all fits in a smaller board I can downsize the processor to a cheaper solution but for now I am sticking with https://store.arduino.cc/usa/arduino-due

It ia s 3.3v IC so i will need to level shift all the I/O lines in and out of the board but that is not a major problem.

For injector drivers I am going to use the TI TPIC 46L02 Pre-FET DRIVER and the TPIS2601 Output transistor array.

 I will make my binary file available to a few. I will endeavor to make a user interface that is as programmable as possible.
I am thinking now about what user programmable adjustment to make available. Bear in mind I have a job and only do this in my spare time. this is going to take months.

things like,
injector rating in lbs/hr
engine size, cc
number of cyls (injectors)
rated HP
throttle sensor range, min-max
ox sensor (wide or narrow band)
water temp calibration (min-max)
map sensor min-max
learn mode,
tune mode.
sequential timed or batch injection.

Anything else?
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on May 06, 2018, 06:13:32 am
Your out of my league on this.
What comes to mind though is trigger point, firing sequence, air temp?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on June 05, 2018, 04:35:04 pm
I will be getting back to this project as soon as I change the head on my connie. Been a while gathering all the parts.
https://motostuff.shutterfly.com/pictures/250#234
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on June 05, 2018, 06:55:50 pm
We'll be watching.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on June 10, 2018, 02:33:00 pm

Locking per the OP's request...


However, members need to know that if you post something it will be commented on, possibly laughed at, or made fun of.  It's what we do.  If you don't want that to happen, please don't post.
So according to you there is no policing of rude arrogant people who think they are the elite on this forum and can disparage, ridicule and publicly shame other members.

I have a lot to contribute but if there is no one to moderate abusive comments here  then I will not post here again. 

For those that were following this thread, you can contact me via PM and follow my progress on shutterfly.
https://fuelinjectorproject.shutterfly.com/pictures/125
Thanks  to everyone for the suggestions and the comments.

And let's all thank the MAN OF BLUES for helping me see the light.  It’s been fun…NOT!
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: route66tc on June 10, 2018, 04:09:34 pm
So according to you there is no policing of rude arrogant people who think they are the elite on this forum and can disparage, ridicule and publicly shame other members.

I have a lot to contribute but if there is no one to moderate abusive comments here  then I will not post here again. 

For those that were following this thread, you can contact me via PM and follow my progress on shutterfly.
https://fuelinjectorproject.shutterfly.com/pictures/125
Thanks  to everyone for the suggestions and the comments.

And let's all thank the MAN OF BLUES for helping me see the light.  It’s been fun…NOT!
Seems like if you request that a thread be locked because you can't deal with the responses to your posts, that you might want to just hush about that thread.  I guess I'm just not smart enough to understand why one would then continue the pain inducing conversation in another thread......unless they think they are the only one that should be talking and everyone else should just listen.  I'm a 50/50 guy.  If I have to listen to you, then you get to listen to me.  One can learn a lot here if they listen more than they talk and most of all......check one's feelings at the door.  So many people running around these days with hurt feelings.  Mercy!  Good luck.....I'm thinking you'll need it.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: route66tc on June 10, 2018, 05:33:54 pm
thank you for your comments, as I am refraining from any commentary relating to the OP's technical prowess, or projects from this point forward. I do feel however, it's necessary to make a point that making posts here is a free exchange, exchange being the operative word, and as such, you open the door from the first key you hit typing the post. If you don't want someone sharing, and saying something to prevent an otherwise costly and problematic experience on your part, well, as Jim said nicely, just don't make the post.
This forum has existed for decades, and the knowledge sharing (accepted or not) has been the staple of intent, without the input of those that have done silly things, and tell others not to repeat their mistakes out of kindness, there wouldn't be much sense in repeating things like oil and tire threads.. we all learn from mistakes, hopefully. When someone doesn't take what is given ( like correct part numbers, methods, and research given for free.. ) and want's to shut 'er down, pout, and whine, well... not much can be said.
I've asked the moderator to refrain from locking a post, just because the O/P gets a bug in his craw, as it's simply a waste of time for all those wanting to learn, (or learn how not to do something).. and we will see what becomes of it.

so, wasting months of time, and many pages of forum space, because of a a perceived feeling on a response that was given really degrades the experience.

dragging this all over here, served no purpose either,
share the information or choose not to.
don't waste peoples time tho, it's really rude. Much more rude than any comment I have made. Just because a thread is locked, doesn't make what was posted dissapear... and i'll add, once locked, it can't be modified to remove content... ;)

Sounds like advice my dad would give.  He was wounded on the front lines in Korea.  One of many from a generation that defined the word tough.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on June 23, 2018, 01:44:48 pm
Had some free time today.
Using a shield board for the  injector drive circuit.
Arduino and shield board mated.

https://fuelinjectorproject.shutterfly.com/pictures/126
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on June 23, 2018, 02:41:25 pm
Glad to see you get back to it.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on June 23, 2018, 06:17:39 pm
Great.  More progress.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on July 01, 2018, 08:08:35 pm
This topic was first created on the v4musclebike forums and duplicated on the zggtr.org forum.

Since the beginning the "project" has created much interest, praise and criticism.

Since the project is not specific to the concours or the v4 muscle bikes I have decided to continue the discussion here in a format that is generic to any bike with carburetors.

http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=2#p2 (http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=2#p2)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on July 01, 2018, 08:46:19 pm
Will you not be updating this thread?
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on July 06, 2018, 11:22:31 am
I will only post major achievements and milestones.

http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=2#p2 (http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=2#p2)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on July 06, 2018, 06:51:31 pm
Thanks, looking forward to your updates.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on July 12, 2018, 05:37:46 pm
just getting started again.
http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=5#p5 (http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=5#p5)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on July 17, 2018, 02:24:56 pm
Some news. Maybe good , maybe not. But I got excited when I learned about it.

My hardware design is a pretty primitive breadboard and the software has just begun. I learned from a friend  that there is a group that has already gone down the same path. They are using the same hardware that I picked and are very far along on the software development.

I just found it and am looking at their information now. Looks very promising. If it pans out then I am miles ahead to just scrap my circuit board and go with their's .. I will update after I have a chance to dig into it.

I just bought the hardware boards and it will take several weeks to arrive from Iseral. I already have their software loaded on my machine and I will be ready when the hardware arrives.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on July 17, 2018, 06:30:13 pm
Do you know what they are using for a test mule?
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on July 17, 2018, 08:57:35 pm
not sure but they are claiming 80 known installations ranging  from car to motorcycles to stationary engines. 

With all the research I have done and all the googling I have done I am shocked that I did not see this before.

I have the hardware ordered and I have the firmware on my machine. I am configuring it now a will be trying to compile the code and load it onto my ecu.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on July 18, 2018, 10:25:16 am
The ECU is based on the Arduino micro-controller.  They control both the injectors and the spark and require feedback from the motor timing.

It requires either a sensor on a crank sprocket with one missing tooth or a once around signal on the camshaft to know when top dead center of cylinder 1 occurs.

Last time I looked inside the crankshaft cover it seemed pretty crowded. I don't think there is room for another sensor in there. 

Perhaps a magnet mounted on one of the cam sprockets would suffice.  More study is required.

???
From their documentation ...

" A dual wheel trigger is one where there is a primary multi-tooth wheel combined with a secondary single pulse to provide location information. The primary input should contain no missing teeth. Both pulses can run at either cam or crank speed, but sequential operations requires that the secondary pulse is located on the cam. The design of the secondary trigger can vary (Eg a single short tooth, half-moon wheel etc), provided it only provides a single pulse per revolution.

Tooth #1 is defined to be the first tooth on the primary wheel AFTER the pulse on the secondary wheel."

it looks like the missing tooth is not necessary if there is a second sensor to indicate where the cam is. So a sensor on the flywheel and another on the cam should be what they are looking for.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on July 19, 2018, 07:30:30 pm
Not keeping it secret. Just wanted to understand it and that is is a viable solution before sending everyone off to chase after it. Looks good so far.

Maybe you have already heard of them but I never did until about 4 days ago.

I think they are based in England and are miles ahead of my one off prototype.

Here is a link that will get you to their website.

https://speeduino.com/wiki/index.php/Overview
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on July 23, 2018, 09:56:08 am
Been talking with the developers and others about this EFI solution
Turns out the crank sensor is not necessary for basic operation.

http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=6#p6 (http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=6#p6)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on July 24, 2018, 07:47:10 pm
http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=8#p8 (http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=8#p8)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on August 01, 2018, 04:30:48 pm
Still waiting for my speeduino board to arrive from Israel.  Meanwhile ....I got some new toys.

http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=9#p9 (http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=9#p9)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on August 09, 2018, 12:58:56 pm
My Speeduino board finally arrived. I found the schematics and documentation online. There was even a CAD file of a case for it to fit in which I promply printed on my new 3D printer.

I've got a lot of bench testing to do but this is going to be fun for a while.

https://fuelinjectorproject.shutterfly.com/pictures/129#129
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on August 10, 2018, 03:28:46 pm
I've been playing with it all day and made some progress. Time to quit and go to work.
http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=13#p13 (http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=13#p13)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on August 10, 2018, 05:41:34 pm
 :thumbs: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on August 17, 2018, 07:13:22 pm
 :banana
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on August 20, 2018, 11:54:54 am
Gentlemen, your attention please.  I want to sincerely thank all of my friends that supported and encouraged me to continue this project. 
Also want to thank the naysayers because the best way to get me to do something is to tell me I can’t. 

This is the end of chapter one. 
So with that said I want you all to have a look at the first..

1987 FUEL-INJECTED HONDA MAGNA.   https://youtu.be/_oLNUT8rP28

Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on August 20, 2018, 01:00:05 pm
I think the proper words for today are.
:banana :banana It is "Ahhh L-I-V-E" !! :banana :banana

PS: Congratulations!

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on August 20, 2018, 07:14:52 pm
Congrats on all the work coming to fruition. Do you have a realtime O2 sensor in the exhaust to measure the fuel air ratio?
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on August 22, 2018, 11:41:22 am
Thanks for the positive reactions.
when I finish this I will start on the Connie C10.

http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=17#p17 (http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=17#p17)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on August 25, 2018, 07:03:07 pm
Congrats on all the work coming to fruition. Do you have a realtime O2 sensor in the exhaust to measure the fuel air ratio?

Gary,
location, location, location..

https://youtu.be/lyv0wh3fsLM

Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on August 25, 2018, 07:35:04 pm
Rich, I concur with your assessment of location of the sensor. I located the O2 sensor in the collector of the catless zx header I installed on my '08. I think the stock headers have a boss at about the curve of the downtube.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on August 26, 2018, 03:16:00 pm
Rich, I concur with your assessment of location of the sensor. I located the O2 sensor in the collector of the catless zx header I installed on my '08. I think the stock headers have a boss at about the curve of the downtube.

correct...
and you installed a single O2 sensor there, in the collector, which works.
IIRC, the Magna has a dual pipe, dual exhaust also.... just mentioning.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on August 27, 2018, 09:43:35 pm
The O2 sensor seems to be behaving where it is.  It is a narrow band sensor and switches quickly from rich to lean .

I have a new wide band sensor on order along with controller for it.   When the new one arrives I will mount it closer to the collector to make sure there is no oxygen  "leaking" into the exhaust after combustion.

Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on August 28, 2018, 05:26:01 am
 :thumbs:
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on September 05, 2018, 09:43:29 pm
So frustrating.  Still waiting on my broadband sensor and controller.  However have made some progress but still a long way to go.

http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=22#p22 (http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=22#p22)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on September 06, 2018, 07:57:29 am
Gpineau, I followed you on the mechanical, but your way above my capabilities' on the electrical portion of this project.
I am enjoying (and learning some) as I watch you work your way thru the process.
Have a few questions.

1) You said you only have 1 pulse and your temporarily telling the system it is only a 2 cylinder.
     A C-10 has 2 pick up coils so I assume you could use both?
      Does this bike only have 1 pick up coil?

2) At the start of this project you planned a low budget version of what others have built.
    With all the special parts you have been ordering, isn't your budget higher than expected?
      NOTE: I realize the development process costs extra as you determine correct components.
                So, I'm not referring to the development costs as you work out details..
                I'm referring to the costs for the special boards etc that you finalized on.

3) My guess is; this has become more complicated that you originally though it would be?

4) Have you cranked it anymore?

Ride safe, Ted

Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on September 06, 2018, 01:01:43 pm
Connie_rider

http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=23#p23 (http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=23#p23)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on September 12, 2018, 04:19:55 pm
Got my wide band sensor and controller. Tuning will proceed faster now.

http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=28#p28 (http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=28#p28)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on September 12, 2018, 06:23:10 pm
Got my wide band sensor and controller. Tuning will proceed faster now. ]



Running as a closed loop system?
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on September 12, 2018, 07:12:56 pm
No, well, sort of. I am closing the loop myself.

http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=32#p32 (http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=32#p32)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on October 11, 2018, 05:07:53 pm
Sorry no progress and no updates for the past month. It's been hectic. Hailstorm trashed my roof about the time I got called home that my mother's health was failing. She passed away and I am travelling back home again to close her affairs.  I haven't even thought about it and don't know when I am getting back on this project. It may be in the spring.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on October 11, 2018, 05:43:18 pm
Very sorry for your loss. Loosing Mom was tough for me too. Don't forget us when you're of a mind to get back to it.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: qman on October 13, 2018, 08:53:54 am
Prayers are with you and your family at this time of loss.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on October 15, 2018, 01:10:21 pm
Sorry to hear the news.
Prayers for you and your family.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on November 01, 2018, 04:26:22 pm
Things have returned to normal. I settled moms affairs and got a new roof put on.

http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=38#p38 (http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=38#p38)


Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on November 03, 2018, 07:57:26 am
Temperature during warm-up is very sensitive. I made a new video that  may be a little more clear.

http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=38#p42 (http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&p=38#p42)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on November 04, 2018, 08:30:04 am
I found this video very informative in explaining why we run slightly rich. 
https://youtu.be/gPWI8QTRg9g

https://youtu.be/8IuYRVgMlDg
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on November 07, 2018, 04:34:14 pm
is this subject going to be applied to a ZG/GTR Concours, or will it continue in an adjunct, after 12 pages?

maybe relocate it, as some of it is interesting, but not currently related to the Concours.. yet.

 :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :nuts: :banghead: :deadhorse: :salute:

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?board=11.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?board=11.0)
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on November 08, 2018, 09:18:58 am
My Connie is next on my list of things to do after this Magna is highway worthy. .

Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on December 18, 2018, 11:49:38 pm
Updates.

A couple months ago, I tried to use the wires coming from the alternator to see if I could extract a usable signal from the mess of pulses. The alternator is 3 phase so the frequency is 18/3 per rev.  Possible to get 6 pulses per rev from the alternator?
 ++++++
I measured the bolt pattern on the starter clutch and had a machine shop cut me a trigger wheel. I really dread installing it because of the mess I am going to make when i remove the side cover. I got the wheel in the mail today. Bolts right onto the starter clutch. Next job is to find out where I can mount the sensor.
++++++
 I need correct crank timing information to the ECU. At the moment I am only providing one of the coil signals to the ECU and fooling the ECU into think it is a 2 cylinder machine so it will run. I think the MAP signal is noisy because as each intake valve opens there is a pulse of vacuum that enters the plenum then tapers off until the next intake valve opens. I think the noise could be smoothed out if the ECU would sample the MAP sensor at the same time on every revolution. And in order to do that it needs more precise crank position information which the trigger wheel will provide.
++++++
 Today I was about to crack open the side cover to install my newly purchased trigger wheel and I thought I would give it one more try. But this time rather than measure from phase to phase I measured one phase to chassis ground and wow! I got a nice clean square wave output . I used the coil signal as sync and counted the pulses between and I get a rock steady 6 square waves between coil firings.

I thought I had it licked. The alternator was putting out a very nice square wave signal, 6 pulses per rev. But I discovered at high rpm some pulsed just up and disappeared. Poof, gone! Come to find out the alternator regulator is not a regulator at all. It is brute force short the output to ground if the voltage gets too large. .

So... to feed the ecu more information I have removed the alternator flywheel and added "teeth" to it by drilling holes every 10 degrees. I skipped one tooth so it will have a timing mark to determine TDC of cylinder 1. So there are 35 teeth and one missing tooth. Added a VR sensor to the outside of the alternator cover to sense the "teeth" .The reason for going through this trouble to get better crank position information to the ECU is.. It allows the ECU to filter out spurious variations in sensor readings by sampling them at known points in the rotation and always at the same time on each rotation. It certainly made a difference in the way this engine is running now. This is working much better and think I am actually have a chance of tuning this on the road.

 I am anxious  to get a chance to ride. I am in the process of adding a bluetooth communications to the ECU so I can log data with my cell phone while riding on the road.

Meanwhile I have a 1999 Connie waiting for attention. I am running several ideas through my mind.

http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&start=30#p46 (http://gpineau.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2&start=30#p46)

https://youtu.be/GvVWf3nls4A (https://youtu.be/GvVWf3nls4A)

https://youtu.be/oN94ygs3Bio (https://youtu.be/oN94ygs3Bio)

Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on December 19, 2018, 11:32:29 am
Still following this. Admit some went way over my capabilities.
Wondering why you built a trigger wheel and mounted where you did rather than building one where the original ignition pick-up is located?

This has grown in scope a lot over what was originally thought as an inexpensive project.
I understand that as I get myself into similar situations..
It goes from I'll do this EZ project, to I won't let this thing beat me and then "continue" to solve problems as they come up.

Keep tinkering...
I want to see this finished and then done to a Connie.
Should be a bit simpler as you've already done a lot of trial and error.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on December 19, 2018, 11:56:03 am
The trigger wheel pictured above is mounted to the starter clutch about a quarter inch away from the original spark trigger teeth. I had every intent of using it but I dreaded the installation of it.

 I have had the side cover off before when I was working on the starter. It is messy. You must drain the oil and when done you need to re-gasket the side cover and it would have been difficult to find a place for the sensor.  Since I had a spare flywheel I took a shot at putting teeth on it and behold it worked.

If I do another magna I will use the alternator winding's.  to use the alternator winding you must first replace the shunt regulator with a series regulator to prevent the pulses from disappearing at high rpm.  But you can use the 6 pulses from the alternator along with a single spark trigger to accurately divide the crank rotation into 6, 60 degree segments.

Yes this has grown in scope.  But in all I am still under the predicted year in development. It has turned into a long learning process. But the first time is always more involved. I could repeat this in another bike it a quarter the time and cost.

connie_rider You have been an avid reader and supporter from the beginning and you will be the first to know when I take M EFI retrofitted Connie for a test drive.

The Magna being a V4 caused a lot of extra work in designing the manifolds and injector mounts and plumbing.  Doing this on a Connie is going to be a lot simpler.  I am thinking the Connie retrofit will be under 500. If someone wants to replicate this on a Magna it is going to run between 6 and 7 hundred.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on December 24, 2018, 08:38:29 am

Installed a bluetooth adapter on the ECU so I can do logging and tuning from my cellphone while riding .

It took me over a week to get the bluetooth working on my ECU. I burned up the first USB-serial adapter. Maybe it was DOA but I couldn't tell if it was dead or the Bluetooth dongle was dead but they wouldn't talk to each other.  So I ordered a couple more bluetooth dongles and a different brand of USB- serial adapters.  The bluetooth arrived but the USB parts are still in the mail so I tried the alternative method of wiring them up to a aurdrino .  Worked great this time and now I have 3 Bluetooth dongles that are set up for Speeduino.

So next warm day I am going to get this bike out of the garage and take it for a ride.

https://youtu.be/_t49LNSpihU
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on December 26, 2018, 07:37:19 am
Your speaking a language I don't understand, so I'm not even sure I know what you said.
But it sounds like your ready to do a test ride, and be able to tune on the go...
Yahooooooooooo

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on January 12, 2019, 02:40:41 am
For the past week I have been fighting an intermittent problem where the RPM drops to zero then spikes to 4k causing the ECU to loose sync. It turned out to be noise being generated from the fuel pump getting into the ECU power and required some rewiring to resolve. Just one more ghost that needed busted.

From the beginning I knew it was going to be a steep learning curve but I never would have thought it was going to be as involved as it has become.  I have made a lot of mistakes. I’ve pursued some ideas that turned into dead ends and had to find alternatives.

The scope of what was necessary to get this bike running is much more than I expected. The removing of the flywheel and drilling teeth every 10 degrees was just about the limit of my skills and capabilities.  The expenses involved in purchasing materials and components only to throw them away when they served their purpose or didn't work out. I have also purchases specialized tools that I may never use again.  I don’t expect that anyone would want to go through the trouble that I have to replicate what I have done.
 
 Today was cold and raining but I ventured out anyway.  The bike has a rough idle and wants to stall at stop signs. Off idle it runs well with good throttle response.  I went out on the back road. It has plenty of power.  I rode it a couple of miles.  It's 30 years old. The tires are bald and won’t hold air overnight and it hemorrhages oil while it is running.  It sputtered to its final resting place under its own power. This old bike has served as a learning experience and I’ve learned a lot.
 
Things I have learned.

You must have crank position information for the ECU.   Without position information it will run but it won’t run well. And most certainly you can not control ignition without crank position information.

There is a time lag between the ECU fuel adjustment and the O2 sensors feedback to the ECU.  The O2 sensor should be as close to the exhaust port as possible. (thanks MOB)
 
ABS plastic will not hold up to gasoline for a long time. It gets soft and spongy.
 
JB Weld is great stuff. It will solve most attachment and plumbing problem quickly but even JB Weld is temporary.

High pressure fuel lines must be securely clamped. Preferably with screw clamps on barbed fittings.
 
Fuel pumps generate a lot of electrical noise. They can cause all sorts of strange intermittent problems. They should be connected to the battery through a relay. They should not share the same power line as the ECU.
 
Temperature sensors are critical to fuel injection and you must know their specs or be able to calibrate them. Use only parts that you know the specifications of or have the ability to characterize them.

Know the specifications of the fuel injectors you are using or have the capability to characterize them. You can’t guess at it. Open delay and Injector performance will vary with battery voltage.

Engines need air at idle. A closed throttle body will suffocate an engine. You need to bypass the throttle plate with a little air at idle.

Poor crimps and loose connections will haunt you. Use quality connectors. Crimp and solder all connections.  Use the correct connector for the application.

I got a lot of good advice from this forum. Thanks for that. 
I am not calling this a success I am calling an experiment that turned our well.  I have begun salvaging parts for my next project. 
I have some better ideas for doing a better job next time.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: Freddy on January 12, 2019, 07:04:51 am
I just re-read your first post.   :goodpost:  12 out of 10 for persistence and innovation.   
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gPink on January 12, 2019, 09:54:34 am
Thanks for posting. Come back with your next project.
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: connie_rider on January 12, 2019, 10:35:49 am
Thanks for the final report.
What is the next project?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Fuel injection retrofit
Post by: gpineau on January 12, 2019, 12:10:52 pm
The entire saga including the final tune.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9ZAieLe6zonSleaj5i7FP0fbTPn_Uqb9 (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9ZAieLe6zonSleaj5i7FP0fbTPn_Uqb9)

I still have a Connie and a lot of ideas. ......i'll be back.