Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: katata1100 on June 26, 2019, 05:10:36 pm

Title: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: katata1100 on June 26, 2019, 05:10:36 pm
I replaced my carbone Lorraine pads with new ones. During slow speed braking with light brake application , the front brakes feel like they’re warped. During medium or hard braking, they feel fine .
I think I have about 200 miles on them. Do they need more time for break in or do I have a rotor problem?
Title: Re: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: Rubber_Snake on June 26, 2019, 06:17:35 pm
How are your bobbins?  Are they clean and spinning freely?

There’s a bunch of YouTubers with videos on how to clean.

Here’s one...

https://youtu.be/K5F6Yc9cuDo
Title: Re: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on June 26, 2019, 06:23:11 pm
pull the wheel, and abrasively scrub those rotors really well with 120 grit paper, some Brakekleen, and follow up with a scotchbrite pad, and further "degreasing" with the spray.. then re-install.. I actually pull the pads also, "face them" lightly, on a flat surface with sandpaper, spray them down and blow them dry, and re-install them to remove any "glaze".. you should be fine, and you won't take any "miles' off the life off them, other than maybe a few..  Like maybe 20 or so.
Title: Re: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on June 26, 2019, 06:26:08 pm
How are your bobbins?  Are they clean and spinning freely?

There’s a bunch of YouTubers with videos on how to clean.

Here’s one...

https://youtu.be/K5F6Yc9cuDo

cleaning the bobbins is useful, but if all he did was replace pads, and this surfaced, the bobbins would have been evident prior.. but it does not hurt to do it all, at one time.. so, yeaah, clean them also.. but then, you will never "know " which issue caused the problem.. so... I dunno.
Title: Re: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: Freddy on June 26, 2019, 10:10:18 pm
I've tried 'cleaning' the discs as MOB suggests, perhaps not as thoroughly tho, without success.  I have found that sand blasting them works for me.  Obviously, they must be removed to do so.  All based on the assumption that the discs are not warped, nor do they have a thin area, as one of mine did.  I had to get it surface-ground to restore flat & parallel faces, which required the removal and replacement of new bobbins by a bike brake specialist.  Thickness was still within spec after repair.
Title: Re: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: katata1100 on June 26, 2019, 10:56:45 pm
I sanded them with 400 grit paper ( that’s all I had in the garage ) with brake cleaner .
. I took for short ride and is much better, only a slight vibe now that pops up just before bike stops.
Is it possible it will get worse or end up perfect?
Title: Re: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: Freddy on June 27, 2019, 12:14:54 am
In my experience it won't get better of its own accord but if you can't feel it at higher speeds, don't worry about it.
Title: Re: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: maxtog on June 27, 2019, 05:32:13 am
pull the wheel, and abrasively scrub those rotors really well with 120 grit paper, some Brakekleen, and follow up with a scotchbrite pad, and further "degreasing" with the spray.. then re-install.

Is that something that can be done without removing the wheel?  Although I imagine it might ultimately be more difficult, because there is a much smaller working place...
Title: Re: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: Kman on June 27, 2019, 07:00:39 am
If the shudder happened only after replacing the pads, then the issue will be related to the pads. It will be either the new pads themselves being warped or defective in some way or some mechanical issue with the installation of the pads.
Title: Re: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on June 27, 2019, 04:57:55 pm
Is that something that can be done without removing the wheel?  Although I imagine it might ultimately be more difficult, because there is a much smaller working place...

not really.. in fact, the best way is wheel removal, and rotor removal, in order to correctly access the inner surface of the rotors..
I use a pneumatic orbital sander, what is called in a body shop as a 'DA' sander, it oscillates while it rotates, with 120 grit Emory or garnet paper, and evenly circle it around the plate, multiple times, cleaning with the spray, and drying it with air blasts, between.. what you are doing is removing adhered "migrated" pad material, and also micro ridges, restoring some "tooth" to the surface.. I do this whenever I replace pads, especially if i change "pad compound/brand".. I even do this on my trucks and other vehicles rotors, and even did "brake drums" by hand in ancient times... yeah, dating back to when my daddy taught me the process.... It always makes a lot of sense, so.. I just do it.  I have no issues, and whenever I had some "shudder", on the c14, as it was the first bike that I ever felt it rise up on, it's always worked..
400 grit sandpaper is just too fine to make any effect, it just "polishes" the high spots, and does nothing to smooth the rotor out, or reach into the depth of the micro grooving that exists.. it really needs to get "some bite", into base material, and knock off the high points, to make any effect... mind you, you can get great results doing this, without removing any appreciable amount of the rotor's thickness.. .

as for "abrasive blasting", I have done this in the past, and have seen many people attempt it not without poor results.. biggest problem you will have is "superheating" the surface, which causes warps... it happens very rapidly.. hard to control... and doing it on a "stationary" rotor, by hand, will almost everytime result in warpage..

the methods I used, where done on a "jig" I made that would actually hold the rotor, and spin it via a drill, connected to a chain, connected to the jig, at a significant "RPM" speed..  (about 200 rpm approx), and directing the abrasive "spray" from a distance and an angle, to not overheat the rotor.. if you saw sparks, it was too close.. about 18-20" away was about right, and I did not use "sand", I used "glass bead", as sand was much more heat inducing than the glass...

it' is very touchy to do, It took me a long while to perfect the "system", but was worth the effort in the long run, as I ended up making and selling some units for commercial "metal guys" in my hometown, to utilize..   for the home mechanic, it's way over the $$$ limits to try.
Title: Re: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: VirginiaJim on June 30, 2019, 05:14:15 am
I've had issues with Carbone Lorraine pads the one time I used them.  And remembering now, I think it was low speed issues.  Never again did I buy them.  The Kwackers pads are the best.  Clean up the rotors and get the Kwacker pads.
Title: Re: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: katata1100 on June 30, 2019, 08:31:04 am
These replaced a previous set of carbone Lorraine which I had no problems. Outside of the kawa pads ( which I’ll likely go back to) has anyone come across a decent organic pad that hold up to the C14?.
I say that because I love the way the organic pads work on my Suzuki.
Title: Re: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on June 30, 2019, 01:43:55 pm
These replaced a previous set of carbone Lorraine which I had no problems. Outside of the kawa pads ( which I’ll likely go back to) has anyone come across a decent organic pad that hold up to the C14?.
I say that because I love the way the organic pads work on my Suzuki.

I don't think you will find any organic's will hold up, and not cause shudder on the C14; the weight of the bike, and design of the brakes pretty much dictates you need HH Sintered compound pads, for heat dissipation, and to prevent pad material migration to the rotors when coming to a stop, after hard braking applications.
I've been running EBC HH Sintered, and they seem fine to me (sometimes they "hiss", but they work fine)..
Other than that, the "latest production run" of the OEM pads, installed on 2015 and up, are your best bet; the pad compounds have gone thru 3 actual compound changes so far since '07, and that latest compound seems to be the best so far...
Title: Re: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: maxtog on June 30, 2019, 07:55:46 pm
Other than that, the "latest production run" of the OEM pads, installed on 2015 and up, are your best bet; the pad compounds have gone thru 3 actual compound changes so far since '07, and that latest compound seems to be the best so far...

Yep, I just opted for OEM when I replaced my original pads a few months ago (which still had life left on them, after nearly 40K miles).  Figured, the original ones worked great, the pricing isn't crazy, they last forever, so why fiddle with anything else.  Not sure which production run it was, didn't care :)
Title: Re: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: strum on July 06, 2019, 05:11:11 pm
Where is the best place to get OEMs?    Ronayers  sells them but how do I know they are the latest?
Title: Re: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: maxtog on July 06, 2019, 09:31:16 pm
Where is the best place to get OEMs?    Ronayers  sells them but how do I know they are the latest?

I ordered mine from the dealer.
Title: Re: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: ginzburg on July 07, 2019, 05:37:18 pm
Where is the best place to get OEMs?    Ronayers  sells them but how do I know they are the latest?


Maybe Man of Blues can clarify this. It looks like the 08-09 have one part number. The 10-11 have another and then the 2012 on up have another.

I think he just means the 2012 part number is the latest.

Looks like it was already discussed here http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23582.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23582.0)

They look to be cheapest from Partzilla. I also think they stock them so they ship really fast. I think sometimes things are shipped from Kawasaki first and that takes extra time.



Title: Re: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: SVonhof on September 11, 2019, 10:47:50 pm
I had my front brakes re-done at 18k miles in Oct 2013 and also 25k miles on May of 2015, both under the extended factory warranty.

I just started noticing the shudder again at 42k miles and need to start looking at options. Seems like the latest Kawi pads, part number 43082-0122 are best per my reading.

Anyone have any info on the rotor thickness range? I can mic it out and see what it is, but don't have the ability to check run-out. Just wondering if in 17k miles, the rotor may need to be replaced?

It isn't bad yet, so I have time. I will be doing a cleaning and maybe even sanding of the rotors (as best as possible without removing them) I can do, to see if it helps. Also plan on adjusting the throttle cable tension (this is a thing right?) as I don't know that it has ever been done and seems a little "sloppy".
Title: Re: Low speed brake shudder
Post by: VirginiaJim on September 12, 2019, 03:29:35 am
Interestingly enough, my brake shudder on the C14 was caused by an errant piston in the front caliper.  Rebuilt the front (new seals) and it went away.  I lived with it for many years.  I kick myself for not doing them earlier.  It's not always the rotors.