Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: CDII on August 04, 2019, 11:02:32 am

Title: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: CDII on August 04, 2019, 11:02:32 am
I received my Delkevic header & 14" stainless slip on.
Here is a little more info I hope you all find a bit helpful.

Weights are as follows: 2009 C14
Stock header- 11lbs. 10oz.
Stock muffler & pipe - 19lbs. 10 oz.
Total 31lbs. 4 oz.

Delkevic Header 8lbs. 10oz.
14" Stainless muffler & pipe. 6lbs, 6 oz.
Total 15lbs.
Delkevic header primary tubes. I.D.   34.4mm / 1.35"
Delkevic header primary tubes. O.D. 41.6mm - 1.64"

I did not measure the primary tube diameter of the stock header. I'm sure that info is out there somewhere.
Overall I feel the Delkevic is a good quality header, it looks great but I did not like the transition of the primary tubes into the collector.
There is quite a lip inside the collector.
I'm revising it for better flow. Also taking out the 02 sensor bungs, don't need them on my '09.
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: connie_rider on August 04, 2019, 05:20:38 pm
If you keep the Sensor Bung, you could probably use it for dyno pulls / wide band. {?}
   Your Delkevic is very similar to a ZX-14R header.
   I think you'll find; the first 2" of the Primary Tubes are smaller than 41.6mm - 1.64" O.D. and Cyl's 1/2 and 3/4 are paired. {??}

Here are some dimensions I worked out..
 
ZX-14 2006 - 2007
 Entire head pipe dia is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2") {approx. 51 mm}
 Has no Catalytic converter.
Cyl's 1/4 and 2/3 are paired.


ZX-14 2008 - 2011
 Entire head pipe dia is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2 1/8") {approx. 54 mm}
 Has Catalytic converter.
Cyl's 1/4 and 2/3 are paired.   

ZX-14R: (2013 to current)
 Head pipe dia at the Flange is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
 Head pipe dia from 2" below the Flange, flares to (1 11/16") {43 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2 1/8") {54 mm}
 No Catalytic converter.
Cyl's 1/2 and 3/4 are paired.

ZG-14 (Concours)
 Entire head pipe dia is (1 3/8") {35 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x1) is (2 1/8") {54 mm}
 Has Catalytic converter.
Cyl's 1/4 and 2/3 are paired.

Full Area P System
  Head pipe dia at the Flange is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
  Head pipe dia from 2" below the Flange, flares to {approx. 1 23/32"}) {44 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x1) is approx. (2 1/4") {57 mm}
 No Catalytic converter.
{I think} Cyl's 1/4 and 2/3 are paired.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: maxtog on August 04, 2019, 10:39:25 pm
If you keep the Sensor Bung, you could probably use it for dyno pulls / wide band.

Could also increase value if resold later for any reason.  I can't imagine removing them would have any great advantage.
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: CDII on August 05, 2019, 07:57:22 am
Thanks connie_rider

No pairing on the primary tubes.
Would you recommend keeping the collector bung?
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: connie_rider on August 05, 2019, 03:24:40 pm
Assuming they are not interfering with anything I would leave the 3 bungs on, as they aren't hurting anything, might be useful for tuning, and if you choose to sell they would be in place for someone with a newer model.

When I referred to pairing: I think there is a short Y pipe for cyl's 1/2, and another for cyl's 3/4. They are just prior to the collector?    Hard to see in this image.
https://delkevic.com/headers/kawasaki/2012-models/concours-14-gtr1400/ (https://delkevic.com/headers/kawasaki/2012-models/concours-14-gtr1400/)

Found an image of a used stocker on Ebay. You can see the 2 Y's and the change in Primary Tube diameters more distinctly in a stock ZX-14R header.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-12-16-Kawasaki-Ninja-ZX14R-ZX14-Exhaust-Header-Manifold-Pipe-2016/253931403717?hash=item3b1f7db9c5:g:JfoAAOSwPxRbwVQn (https://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-12-16-Kawasaki-Ninja-ZX14R-ZX14-Exhaust-Header-Manifold-Pipe-2016/253931403717?hash=item3b1f7db9c5:g:JfoAAOSwPxRbwVQn)

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: CDII on August 05, 2019, 04:02:53 pm
No crossover tubes for sure.
I'll look again to see how the collectors merge.
I didn't like the possibility of diisruption of flow of the bung if I didn't need it.
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: connie_rider on August 06, 2019, 09:34:03 am
On the OEM ZX-14R headers, the metal tube's between cyls 1/2 and 3/4 are brace's and do not have crossflow.
ie; Each brace has a hole drilled in the bottom and are not open to the head pipes.

If you have the capability to weld SS it will be simple to remove the Bung tubes.

Dimension explanation; When I installed my headers, I bought headers from a 2006 ZX-14 and a 2012 ZX-14R so that I could compare.
I opted to use the 2006 headers as they had 1/4 and 2/3 pairing like a Concours and head pipe dia that is a closer match to the ones on a C-14.  The bike runs very well now and I'm happy with the set up. 
NOTE: I have Steve's MRP flash in my ECU.

Now that Delkevic is offering these {which are basically ZX-14R copies} it makes me wonder if I made the right choice.  :banghead:
So, I'm watching to see what folks think about the Delkevic set up and how successful Steve is as he develops a Flash for them..
  {shhhh, Don't tell my wife}

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: MtnRider on August 06, 2019, 10:34:47 am
Just buy the Delkevic headers, Ted! You know you want to!     :rotflmao: :loco: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:  :popcorn: :chugbeer:
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: connie_rider on August 06, 2019, 12:31:14 pm
Yes, I want some, but I also want to remain married...…….

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: MtnRider on August 06, 2019, 12:51:12 pm
Oh yeah! I know that sentiment....     :o   :-X   ;D
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: CDII on August 07, 2019, 07:02:40 pm
Bungs cut out & patched, lip on the collector ground out.
I'm excited to put it on. Too busy this weekend so it looks like next week before it's done.
Next up the tune...stay tuned.
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: connie_rider on August 08, 2019, 09:50:35 am
If you get a chance, can you post some photo's of the mods you made?
Anxious to hear how the bike runs after the install.
Do you intend to install a Flash/other, and {if yes} when?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: CDII on August 15, 2019, 05:22:47 am
Here are the before and after pics. The lip is now ground out for better flow.
If you have one of these you'll see what I mean.
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: connie_rider on August 15, 2019, 10:21:51 am
Thank you.
I can see where your grind would improve flow.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: CDII on August 16, 2019, 06:38:04 pm
Thanks Ted

Yes, it should by a fair amount.
I'll compare & post heat and noise data with my Son's stock header with cat & Delkovec 14" stainless.
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: CDII on August 21, 2019, 08:35:59 pm
Just got it back together, no official tests yet, but it feels cooler without the cat, and butt dyno likes the Delkevic header.  Now for a tune! I'll be looking for one for this system.

Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: maxtog on August 22, 2019, 05:46:45 am
Just got it back together, no official tests yet, but it feels cooler without the cat, and butt dyno likes the Delkevic header.  Now for a tune! I'll be looking for one for this system.

Most people's "butt dyno" is based far more on noise/sound than actual power.  Not saying that is the case with you, just pointing something out that I have observed many times over the years.  Especially funny with people swapping just mufflers and claiming so much more power (when in reality, it might be +3hp at 10+K which no human could ever discern.)  With your full exhaust change, you should end up with less power at lower RPM, and more at higher (more like a ZX14 behaves)....  assuming the existing ECU tune doesn't interfere.

Cool that you got it done... I bet it was a lot of work.
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: CDII on August 22, 2019, 07:44:01 am
Hi Maxtog
I know wht you mean about butt dyno feel.
I've got a lot of "seat time" in a lot of race machines so I may be different
not that I'm imune to an improved sound byte! :) it is a bit louder.more pops.
Not too bad of a job. Mid & lowers off radiator and of course old system.
Good time to flush the coolant too.
Heat and noise comparison coming.
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: CDII on September 02, 2019, 07:10:39 pm
The wheels are off.
Getting new tires mounted tomorrow for a trip, but wanted to give a little more info on header performance.
Did only one roll on with a flashed C14.  Went from 5k in 2nd gear knowing mine is a bit off on the low end especially compared to the Steve's flashed bike. Dead even through the top of 3rd gear. I had bags and tools, the other bike didn't.

I hope to compare to an Ivan's flashed 2015 C14 by next week.

I'll let you know how that turns out.
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: maxtog on September 02, 2019, 09:28:26 pm
Did only one roll on [simultaneous comparison] with a flashed C14.  Went from 5k in 2nd gear knowing mine is a bit off on the low end especially compared to the Steve's flashed bike. Dead even through the top of 3rd gear. I had bags and tools, the other bike didn't.

You also need to take note the weight of the riders, geared.  I only weigh 150 lbs :)  So one can pile all the bags, loaded, on mine, and I will still weigh less than many other riders with no bags/tools.  Weight and aerodynamics make a lot of difference in non-dyno [real-word] tests.

Anyway, I wouldn't expect all that much difference under maybe 7 or 8K rpm.  From looking at charts and posts, the stock exhaust system (including muffler) flows quite well to pretty darn high rpm.  In any case, there is a trade-off, lose some low power, gain some high power.  So it depends on how you ride as to which is "better."

Quote
I hope to compare to an Ivan's flashed 2015 C14 by next week.  I'll let you know how that turns out.

Kewl!
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: connie_rider on September 03, 2019, 07:03:05 am
In the roll on, his bike was flashed and has a slip on?
Yours has the Delk full system, but is not flashed?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: CDII on September 04, 2019, 08:41:08 am
That's right Ted mine has no flash yet just full Delkevic system. His has Delk 14" slip on.
Thanks for the reminder Maxtog.
His bike is 625 w/half tank of fuel, mine is 680 + tools I didn't weigh.
He is 165, I'm 180  :-\. That's more than 70lbs in his favor. Hmm
Can't wait for that flash!
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: maxtog on September 04, 2019, 03:32:17 pm
That's right Ted mine has no flash yet just full Delkevic system.

Oh, I didn't know you had no flash at all.  That will seriously hurt performance.

Quote
Thanks for the reminder Maxtog.  His bike is 625 w/half tank of fuel, mine is 680 + tools I didn't weigh. He is 165, I'm 180  :-\. That's more than 70lbs in his favor. Hmm

That will matter.

Quote
Can't wait for that flash!

That will matter a LOT.  Matter much much more than anything else you have, will, or can do.  I wish I could see the smile on your face after...
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: CDII on September 04, 2019, 07:06:20 pm
Yes Maxtog
I know Steve's tune made a huge difference.
My newest to me 09 is just as fast from 5k up with just the full exhaust.
I'm sure the tune will help pick more bottom end too.
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: connie_rider on September 04, 2019, 07:49:55 pm
Steve has modified a Full Area P Flash for the Delk. full system.
Several that bought the Delk. System have installed it in their ECU..
Early reports are "very" good...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: Daytona_Mike on September 05, 2019, 03:15:56 pm
I have the new Premium Full AreaP flash from Steve.  You cannot compare that to his previous flashes or even his previous flash that was on my bike.
 It is THAT much better. Holy mackerel. I thought there was no way this bike could be faster.... well.. IT IS~~!!
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: maxtog on September 05, 2019, 03:25:04 pm
I have the new Premium Full AreaP flash from Steve.  You cannot compare that to his previous flashes.  It is THAT much better. Holy mackerel. I thought there was no way this bike could be faster.... well.. IT IS~~!!

Since (like most motorcycles) the Concours has no air mass sensor (and no active O2 sensor in most cases), it depends completely on maps for fuel metering.  These maps has to make lots of assumptions about how much air is going into the engine under all kinds of conditions.  At the high end of the RPM scale (maybe 7K+), there will be a potential performance difference between the stock exhaust and a full exhaust system replacement (and especially combined with TB replacement).  That can't be dialed into the "stock" reflash he offers, because it would hurt stock performance.  So, yeah, if you slap on an AreaP, it makes sense to get a flash specifically designed for it.  (It can also correct some of the loss of power on the low end, too, that I would expect from putting on an AreaP; it can't correct it all, because it will lose some lower-end power, regardless.  But you don't want to make things worse than necessary).

It does make one wonder why we don't have mass air flow sensors.  They aren't THAT expensive or big anymore, and makes things so much easier and more accurate.  Oh well.
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: CDII on September 05, 2019, 08:42:47 pm
Thanks guys for all your replies.
I love the big block, and it can get even better!

Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: CDII on September 05, 2019, 08:45:47 pm
Is anyone running the ZX14 throttle bodies with the full Delkevic system?

Does the flash cover any additional bottom end torque/hp loss?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: maxtog on September 06, 2019, 12:49:36 am
Is anyone running the ZX14 throttle bodies with the full Delkevic system?

Yes.  Several people have because I have seen such postings in the past.

Quote
Does the flash cover any additional bottom end torque/hp loss?

That question doesn't relate to your first.  I can answer in theory (which is supported by facts, like physics and dyno runs), and did so in my previous post.  Yes, a reflash that is designed specifically for a "full exhaust" should be able to help some compared to a reflash not designed for a "full exhaust", but it will not recover all the lost low-end torque/hp.  It is just a matter of physics :) 

The Concours has more low-end power than a ZX-14 and less high-end power.  Same displacement engine, different design parameters.  Smaller exhaust/TB and different/variable cams allowed the Concours to be tuned to deliver more power in the "comfort" areas where "touring" users are more likely to use it and appreciate it.  The opposite for the ZX-14, where the tuning (exhaust/TB different cam and lack of variable valves) shifted the power to the higher-end, raising the power (and, thus, maximum HP) in the range more appropriate for that type of rider.

The more the Concours engine setup is changed to be like the ZX14, the more loss of low-end power and the more gain in high-end power.  It is a trade-off.  Power can't be invented out of thin air- it is being shifted from one place to another.... aside from the fact that reflashing a stock Concours unlocks the full power it has because it undoes most of the things Kawasaki did for noise and emissions control (so that is kinda "free power").

Knowing the peak HP on a vehicle (which most people obsess over), which is a single point, doesn't tell the story of everything that came before it, as you can see in the attached graph.  So.... is the ZX-14 (reflashed or not) more "powerful" than the reflashed (otherwise stock) Concours?  No.  Is it "faster"?  In few cases, no.  In most cases, yes.  In some cases very much so.  The ZX-14 is lighter (it has fewer features and storage and convenience), is more aerodynamic (making it more uncomfortable), is geared a little lower (which is better for getting the the higher RPM sooner, but not good for keeping in the comfort zone), and has a chain drive which reduces final drive loss (making it require more maintenance).  The cam profile and lack of variable valves makes it less responsive and smooth, less fuel efficient, and louder, in the relaxed-riding RPM range.  It also makes it, overall, less reliable.  Trade-offs.
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: connie_rider on September 06, 2019, 07:38:24 am
There are 2 ride reports in this discussion by HR. Well written.
They will give you a good idea of what to expect with the Delk. System and Steve's modified Area P Flash.

http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/pro-cons-of-de-catting-exhaust/msg676950/#msg676950 (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/pro-cons-of-de-catting-exhaust/msg676950/#msg676950)

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Delkevic full exhaust
Post by: CDII on September 08, 2019, 08:38:12 pm
Thanks Ted

Exactly what I expected with larger diameter primary tubes. It moves the torque curve up higher in the revs.
The tune I think will cover that and have great top end, of course with all the smoothness of Steve's flashes.  :goodpost: