Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: maxtog on August 21, 2019, 07:31:22 pm

Title: Turning off
Post by: maxtog on August 21, 2019, 07:31:22 pm
Hmm.  My Concours has started acting up on me a bit.  When I cold start it, it runs a bit rough and then wants to turn off.  Sometimes I make it down the driveway and then it shuts off on me.... or my fav, turning from the driveway on a sharp right and then apply power and bam, it is now, or was already off (I am very careful there now).  Has been doing it several weeks now.  After it comes off the cold idle onto the warm idle, it can't quite stay running until a few min later when it is actually warm.

In the past, I would check my logs and realize it had been a year since I ran Techron through it and run a tank through and it would be fine again for another year.  That didn't work this time (just did that at 39,965mi, 1800 miles/3 months ago).  Not sure what to think.  Correct gas.  Great mileage.   No power delivery problems after the initial 5 min.  I wouldn't expect such an issue on a modern, fuel-injected 4.  Any thoughts?  Run another tank of Techron?

Yes, I am way overdue for a valve check (never done yet), but I don't think that is it.
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: fartymarty on August 21, 2019, 11:50:50 pm
So is that air filter still in your Amazon cart or did you finally install it?
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: VirginiaJim on August 22, 2019, 04:45:01 am
Could be a bad batch of gas.  What's the warm idle speed?  Could be water in the gas...  Could be a lot of things.
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: maxtog on August 22, 2019, 05:19:44 am
So is that air filter still in your Amazon cart or did you finally install it?

I bought it.  Waiting to install it with some other stuff.... if I can ever get my mechanic friend motivated.  But I don't see how it could be an air filter.  As those get dirty, I believe it would affect top RPM speed first.  And it certainly wouldn't suddenly get clean when the bike is warmer :)
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: maxtog on August 22, 2019, 05:22:42 am
Could be a bad batch of gas.


Has been more than one tank.

Quote
What's the warm idle speed?


I think about 800rpm?  Cold seems to be something like 1100.  Are those even externally adjustable?  I seem to remember looking for an adjuster and couldn't find one.  Even if it is just a stop gap, it might be worth messing with.

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=17142.msg247461#msg247461 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=17142.msg247461#msg247461)

Hmm, I will investigate.

Quote
Could be water in the gas..  Could be a lot of things.


I know :(  That is why I am a bit concerned.  It isn't a major problem, but it is annoying.
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: lather on August 22, 2019, 06:51:10 am
800 rpm is too low.
I had stalling problems when my idle speed was set at oem spec. Since I set it up to 1300 it has never stalled again.
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: B.D.F. on August 22, 2019, 10:29:12 am
Yes, it is externally adjustable. In fact, Kawasaki ran a cable down the left side of the bike and put a knob on the end of that cable so it is easy to adjust. Look around the drain tubes in front of the left peg, just inside the mid fairing panel and you will find that cable. Adjust the idle so it is ~ 1,100 RPM when up to temp; the high- speed idle when the bike is cold is not adjustable (well, not easily and it is not made to be adjustable) so it will simply idle at some speed greater than the mechanical idle is set.

In major maintenance inspections at 25K and 50K miles the only thing I found changed significantly was the throttle body synchronization. The mechanical linkage between the two T.B. banks, 1&2 and 3&4 wears a bit and so the two groups of two T.B.'s get slightly out of synch. This hurts both idle and off- idle initial acceleration at low throttle openings. Otherwise, there was nothing that  needed to be changed on my bike even at 50K miles.

Brian

Has been more than one tank.

I think about 800rpm?  Cold seems to be something like 1100.  Are those even externally adjustable?  I seem to remember looking for an adjuster and couldn't find one.  Even if it is just a stop gap, it might be worth messing with.

[url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=17142.msg247461#msg247461[/url] ([url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=17142.msg247461#msg247461[/url])

Hmm, I will investigate.

I know :(  That is why I am a bit concerned.  It isn't a major problem, but it is annoying.
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on August 22, 2019, 03:12:37 pm
come on Max... 40k miles... no valve inspect.. and air filter still in package waiting for that elusive valve interval...

It's time man... get'r done dude.. don't be the poster child for "it ran great right up till she blowed up..."

I just replaced my fuel filter in a "pre-emptive" wise mode, as I figured if I didn't, I'd have issues "on the road".. and didn't want to do the job on a picnic table at a rest area.. wise move.. it looked horrible.. never really had any "running issues", so it was just a worthwhile thing, to ease my mind.. valve inspect, and air filter... need regular (at least by now one look...) attention.

YMMV.. as it appears.. Techron is great stuff, but changing a fuel filter is cheaper, in the long run... and lets that Techron get to where it needs to get...

Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: maxtog on August 22, 2019, 03:27:12 pm
Yes, it is externally adjustable. In fact, Kawasaki ran a cable down the left side of the bike and put a knob on the end of that cable so it is easy to adjust. Look around the drain tubes in front of the left peg, just inside the mid fairing panel and you will find that cable.

Is it behind the panel?  If so, that might be why I remember it but didn't find it.  I would check now, but it is raining AGAIN.

Quote
In major maintenance inspections at 25K and 50K miles the only thing I found changed significantly was the throttle body synchronization. The mechanical linkage between the two T.B. banks, 1&2 and 3&4 wears a bit and so the two groups of two T.B.'s get slightly out of synch. This hurts both idle and off- idle initial acceleration at low throttle openings. Otherwise, there was nothing that  needed to be changed on my bike even at 50K miles.

Yeah, I am wondering about TB sync, too.  Definitely on the list....
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: maxtog on August 22, 2019, 03:31:50 pm
come on Max... 40k miles... no valve inspect.. and air filter still in package waiting for that elusive valve interval...  It's time man... get'r done dude.. don't be the poster child for "it ran great right up till she blowed up..."

I know, I am so bad.  I have never removed the gas tank before (even with all the farkling over the years) and I am very leery to do it without my friend helping.  Otherwise I would have at least replaced the air filter, coolant, and dumped the gas tank on my own.  Really, the ONLY reason this stuff has not been done is because of him not being available and my not trusting the dealer to do it right.  I wanted to do it all at the same time (I have quite a list now- all that plus leaky cam seal, valve adjust, TB sync, header bolts, windshield lube, inspection of stuff).  I will start actively pestering him again.... I think he is much more "stable" now.
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on August 22, 2019, 04:43:43 pm
now you make me feel guilty, because I moved back to Ohio from Va.....

heck, I would have just said "bring it over" if I still lived there.. I'm guilty of "neglecting" my bikes, over time, especially here in OHIO where i get a half year out of my License plate sticker.. but man o Man... just pick up some tools, do a stiff shot of liquor, and "go mess with it"... slow, careful, pay attention to what you remove, and it all works out in the end... of course saying a prayer won't hurt either....

take charge, and be large.... I see this long list of farkles, and think... wassup/?

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/5ca3ca51ea55c0bce0abf2daab7bf6bd/tumblr_pj0fl1zc7e1rrkahjo2_500.gif)

so, time to do some work, and be full of pride....  I know you love the bike....

(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/ab/ab7c8bcdf175c8a37835f44a345d3c4e738a06e090306be3043d80a30bcdb152.jpg)


you know I'm just being ridiculously silly, knowing how long we both been here.. 
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: CDII on August 22, 2019, 05:42:52 pm
My idle is lower cold and goes up after warmup.
Some of the simple maint. stuff can be fun Maxtog.
Dig in buddy!
 :)
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: VirginiaJim on August 23, 2019, 04:05:13 am
Max, don't make me ride my Indian down there and show you how it's done...  Although I've never done maintenance to a Gen 2 bike.  But hey, it's not my bike and I'd love to experiment on yours.  I do have a 'rebuilt' pump with a new screen in it.  Not sure if a Gen 1 pump will work in a Gen 2, though.  Update, that pump is used throughout all model years.
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: Conrad on August 23, 2019, 07:43:22 am
I know, I am so bad.  I have never removed the gas tank before (even with all the farkling over the years) and I am very leery to do it without my friend helping.  Otherwise I would have at least replaced the air filter, coolant, and dumped the gas tank on my own.  Really, the ONLY reason this stuff has not been done is because of him not being available and my not trusting the dealer to do it right.  I wanted to do it all at the same time (I have quite a list now- all that plus leaky cam seal, valve adjust, TB sync, header bolts, windshield lube, inspection of stuff).  I will start actively pestering him again.... I think he is much more "stable" now.

Why would you need to remove the tank to replace the air filter and coolant? Is that necessary on Gen2s? Not so on the superior Gen1s.    :)
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: VirginiaJim on August 23, 2019, 08:38:59 am
In case the fuel filtered is knackered..
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: B.D.F. on August 23, 2019, 10:54:07 am
You do not have to or even want to remove the tank for any / all of the maintenance being talked about here. In fact, you will need the tank on the bike to do a T.B. synch. anyway 'cause that is done with the bike running.

If you have over 40K on the OE air filter, you must be down to 100 hp max...... :-)  Mine have always been downright filthy at 25K intervals.

Brian

I know, I am so bad.  I have never removed the gas tank before (even with all the farkling over the years) and I am very leery to do it without my friend helping.  Otherwise I would have at least replaced the air filter, coolant, and dumped the gas tank on my own.  Really, the ONLY reason this stuff has not been done is because of him not being available and my not trusting the dealer to do it right.  I wanted to do it all at the same time (I have quite a list now- all that plus leaky cam seal, valve adjust, TB sync, header bolts, windshield lube, inspection of stuff).  I will start actively pestering him again.... I think he is much more "stable" now.
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: fartymarty on August 23, 2019, 10:55:14 am
Is it behind the panel?  If so, that might be why I remember it but didn't find it.  I would check now, but it is raining AGAIN.

It's not supposed to be behind the panel, but frequently ends up there when the panel is removed and replaced. See page 216 Owner's Manual.

fyi: Here is what my filter looked like after leaving it in for over3X the mileage that I should have. (page 187 OM, 11,250 miles)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-pqGKPDb/2/4f1d8814/M/i-pqGKPDb-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-pqGKPDb/2/4f1d8814/X3/i-pqGKPDb-X3.jpg)

A fuel mileage improvement was very noticeable after the change.  ::) :-[
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: maxtog on August 24, 2019, 10:54:58 am
OK, it stopped raining long enough for me to finally look and test.  First up- the idle adjuster.  Nope, there isn't one (just like I thought).  So I have a feeling it has some how ended up behind the fairing.  There is no easy getting to that any time soon.  It is going to start raining again in probably an hour.

Next, I videoed starting the bike cold so I could study it and time it.  73F ambient, 75%RH.  After starting, it hovers erratically between 1300 to 1600 rpm.  At 40 seconds it starts to lower slowly until it hits 750rpm at 1 min 10 seconds.  That is where it stays, just barely running.  At 2 min I reved it some and it returns right back to 750.  At 2min 40 sec, still at 750 and I turned it off because it started raining (of course).  I really wanted to let it run longer to see where it would end up as it got warmer.

So.... Although there is a list of stuff that certainly needs doing, I think I need to get to that idle adjuster.
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: B.D.F. on August 24, 2019, 12:02:05 pm
You show your bike as being a 2011: that means that yeah, the adjuster is behind the rubber filler between the mid- fairing and the engine. Still, not much of a problem, simply open the very bottom of that filler and you will find it. I do not <think> you have to remove any fairing screws but you may have to remove the bottom / rear screw to pull the very bottom of the fairing away.

You can also try to reach up from underneath the fairings (Easy Boys!) and get to it that way. There may be room enough.

And it would be well worth a few minutes to do a Google search. The process should also be laid out clearly (well, kinda' clearly :-)  ) in the service manual and possibly even in the owner's manual.

The end result is that this just is not that big of a deal to avoid and instead deal with a stalling, possibly dangerous and far more likely to drop bike IMO. Really, it just will not be that bad to adjust.

Of course I suggest doing this on a cold bike and engine.

Best of luck.

Brian



OK, it stopped raining long enough for me to finally look and test.  First up- the idle adjuster.  Nope, there isn't one (just like I thought).  So I have a feeling it has some how ended up behind the fairing.  There is no easy getting to that any time soon.  It is going to start raining again in probably an hour.

Next, I videoed starting the bike cold so I could study it and time it.  73F ambient, 75%RH.  After starting, it hovers erratically between 1300 to 1600 rpm.  At 40 seconds it starts to lower slowly until it hits 750rpm at 1 min 10 seconds.  That is where it stays, just barely running.  At 2 min I reved it some and it returns right back to 750.  At 2min 40 sec, still at 750 and I turned it off because it started raining (of course).  I really wanted to let it run longer to see where it would end up as it got warmer.

So.... Although there is a list of stuff that certainly needs doing, I think I need to get to that idle adjuster.
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on August 24, 2019, 01:21:51 pm
OK, it stopped raining long enough for me to finally look and test.  First up- the idle adjuster.  Nope, there isn't one (just like I thought).  So I have a feeling it has some how ended up behind the fairing.  There is no easy getting to that any time soon.  It is going to start raining again in probably an hour.

Next, I videoed starting the bike cold so I could study it and time it.  73F ambient, 75%RH.  After starting, it hovers erratically between 1300 to 1600 rpm.  At 40 seconds it starts to lower slowly until it hits 750rpm at 1 min 10 seconds.  That is where it stays, just barely running.  At 2 min I reved it some and it returns right back to 750.  At 2min 40 sec, still at 750 and I turned it off because it started raining (of course).  I really wanted to let it run longer to see where it would end up as it got warmer.

So.... Although there is a list of stuff that certainly needs doing, I think I need to get to that idle adjuster.


that part about running erratically at cold start, 1300-1600 rpm, says you ain't getting air thru your filter..., and when the throttle is blipped anytime after the first 30-40 seconds has elapsed, the secondary butterflies will be closing, as they now do not need to be wide open, as they are during a cold start... this results in the change you see.

your bike has the increased heat flow shield, down bottom... but you can still get to the adjuster.. stick you finger in behind the rubber "deflector" and feel for the "knob", it can be pulled out, and accessed then.. when it's exposed, start and bring bike up to temp again, until the fast idle drops off... then turn the knob C/W, a bit, to see if the idle rises.. don't twist and twist tho, if it does not respond... should only take
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: maxtog on August 24, 2019, 01:31:33 pm
You show your bike as being a 2011: that means that yeah, the adjuster is behind the rubber filler between the mid- fairing and the engine. Still, not much of a problem, simply open the very bottom of that filler and you will find it. I do not <think> you have to remove any fairing screws but you may have to remove the bottom / rear screw to pull the very bottom of the fairing away.

Thank you for the words of encouragement!!  The rain ended.  So I went back out there with a flashlight and tools.  I had to partially remove the mid and lower fairing and then, there it was!  So I routed it back out to be external and put everything back.  10 minutes.  You are right, I probably could have done it from below, but not without know EXACTLY where it was and what it felt like.

Started it, let it get warm, then adjusted it to 1125rpm for now (wow that adjuster is sensitive).  Let's see how it behaves.  The idle is still a bit erratic, but I am betting the engine won't just shut off on me now.  Should be able to ride tonight if there is no more rain... forecast looks good so far...

I guess any time I remove that fairing, I will have to remember to route that stupid thing to be external.  Never paid it any mind, since I have never had any idle problems until now.
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: maxtog on August 24, 2019, 09:31:29 pm
Should be able to ride tonight if there is no more rain... forecast looks good so far...

OMG, *so* much better.
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: gPink on August 25, 2019, 07:06:30 am
 ::) There goes the air filter change.
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: PH14 on August 25, 2019, 09:00:55 am
::) There goes the air filter change.

 :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: kzz1king on August 25, 2019, 09:38:05 am
This is why Max tires last so long.😉

::) There goes the air filter change.
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: maxtog on August 25, 2019, 09:52:16 am
::) There goes the air filter change.

LOL! :)

The air filter shouldn't cause such symptoms- engine accelerates fine at 10 times the airflow.  Oh, it is probably dirty as hell, and needs replacement.  It is probably hurting higher flow power, but that wouldn't be enough to hurt idle.  If it were that dirty, the bike would ride like it had a wet rag in it.

The idle is still a bit erratic.  It is possible one of my plugs is a bit fouled- that could be caused by a valve being a bit loose.  I have been stepping up my efforts harassing my mechanic friend.

Rode it about 100 miles this morning at all speeds, rates, road types.  SO much better.  I didn't realize how much I was compensating for the issue with every launch.
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: maxtog on August 25, 2019, 10:13:53 am
This is why Max tires last so long.😉

Um, no.

But they are starting to show significant wear now at 14,674 miles, 2.3 years.  Almost at wear bars now- they would not pass inspection (if I bothered to ever have the bike inspected).  So I might have another 3K miles left, depending on exactly how they wear and how much I care about having tread for wet riding (which I try to avoid, of course).
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: kzz1king on August 25, 2019, 03:27:11 pm
I am a little jealous. I would be happy to get half that mileagevout of a rear tire.
Title: Re: Turning off
Post by: maxtog on August 25, 2019, 05:36:53 pm
I am a little jealous. I would be happy to get half that mileage out of a rear tire.

You would probably have to move to this area, because I think the roads make the most difference.