Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: YHSublime on August 26, 2019, 12:31:33 pm

Title: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: YHSublime on August 26, 2019, 12:31:33 pm
Hey Folks,

I've got a 2013 kawi concours that had the wireless key fall out while I was riding. Happened about 9 months ago and I have just been overwhelmed about it and it's been sitting around. You can read about that here: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23724.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23724.0) but to touch on what's been covered:
- I have no keys for this motorcycle, other than the stovepipe key, which I can't activate.
- Nobody knows about the credit card emergency key, the passive key is you will. Dealership has no clue, PO has no clue. (In thinking about places it might actually be even though nobody knows about it, there's a snowballs chance in hell its in the tool bag under the seat, but I can't get the seat off.)
- It's wheel locked

Well, we're getting repaving done at my place and I have to move the bike tonight, called up my local Kawasaki dealer and they told me that in parts alone this was going to cost $2,400. That's before the pressure system for the tires which they're quoting me at starting at $3,300.

Has anybody had to do this before, I'm having a hard time finding costs associated,

At this stage it would be easier for me to declare the bike totaled.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Rubber_Snake on August 26, 2019, 01:23:39 pm
Man!  How long has your bike been sitting in the street???  I’m thinking you might be better off finding a wrecked/parting out 2010-2014, take the fob/ecu/TPS from that bike and doing a swap.  I think it would be much cheaper.  Best of luck.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: YHSublime on August 26, 2019, 02:24:18 pm
The answer is too long. I'm not spending more than I paid for the bike, it's in immaculate condition sans this entire key thing. I just can't believe this is the end.

Pro move, I swapped out my gas tank lid with the key with an aftermarket so I didn't have to worry about about taking my key out all the time. I've taken the lid and lock to a local locksmith who will make a key for me so I can get into my seat at least, and then lets throw out some good vibes that the passive responded is in the tool kit bag or under the seat by some Christmas miracle.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on August 26, 2019, 02:53:22 pm
Earlier, when you first asked about this, I tried to explain a bit;

But, just today this same issue popped up on the COG forum...

this is the solution I have, pretty much the only one... go price the "kit's", and see if you want to put the money out... sounds like the dealership you are questioning is wayy out of line on his pricing, and simply doesn't want to deal with it...

I know for certain, if I had the KDS, I could accomplish all of the changes in less than 1 hour.. even while taking a smoke break... and at general shop rate time of $140-$180 max.. (ridiculous price) per hour...  It's a $1000 job... doubling and tripling the "parts costs" is abhorred...

Hey Folks,

I've got a 2013 kawi concours that had the wireless key fall out while I was riding. Happened about 9 months ago and I have just been overwhelmed about it and it's been sitting around. You can read about that here: [url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23724.0[/url] ([url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23724.0[/url]) but to touch on what's been covered:
- I have no keys for this motorcycle, other than the stovepipe key, which I can't activate.
- .....
Well, we're getting repaving done at my place and I have to move the bike tonight, called up my local Kawasaki dealer and they told me that in parts alone this was going to cost $2,400. That's before the pressure system for the tires which they're quoting me at starting at $3,300.

Has anybody had to do this before, I'm having a hard time finding costs associated,

At this stage it would be easier for me to declare the bike totaled.

THIS is the only way to get back into action....  the kit runs $875 approx...
mind you, you will need a physical "key" that fits the ignition.. or you will need a complete ignition module also... with a key.

you have a stovekey in ignition, you are fine with that.. during programming, it will be used and paired when the ECU and FOBs are layed on the bike, and system programming takes place... as for wheel sensors..? if they ain't bad, they get programmed as is.. during the process.. you don't need new ones unless they are dead...
   21176-0748   SENSOR,TPMS 315MHZ   2 req'd....   (approx $213 each.. )

2008-'09
2 matched active fobs, matched to ECU, and ECU..kit
21175-0183   CONTROL UNIT-ELECTRONIC

2010-thru '14
1 active FOB, and ECU, matched kit
21175-0299   CONTROL UNIT-ELECTRONIC

2015 up
1 active FOB, paired to ECU, matched kit
21175-0730   CONTROL UNIT-ELECTRONIC

extras, after buying the above, will give you "spares"
passive credit card immobilizer/fobs, for programming,
21175-0256   SPARE FOB KEY blank may need to be purchased..


It realllly makes me furious, to read of dealerships that do things like you have been dealt.. even with "part markup", the price of parts, and time/labor would never get over $1500, for everything, Kit, labor, etc... and the tech won't even have to wash his hands afterwards..
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: YHSublime on August 27, 2019, 10:13:02 am
Earlier, when you first asked about this, I tried to explain a bit;

But, just today this same issue popped up on the COG forum...

this is the solution I have, pretty much the only one... go price the "kit's", and see if you want to put the money out... sounds like the dealership you are questioning is wayy out of line on his pricing, and simply doesn't want to deal with it...

Thanks for this, it's super helpful. And this time around I understand what you're saying. Not that it's any better, but when you're staring down the barrel of $1000 vs almost $6000 it makes it hurt a little less. Obviously this monkey has been on my back for quite some time, I had the motorcycle moved to a small local shop last night. I'm in the process of getting a key for the seat made so I can at least see if the passive FOB is in the toolkit.

Believe it or not, most people I spoke to at a couple of dealerships were not even familiar with the issue. I think you're right, they just didn't want to deal with it. I was price shopping because I was going to have it towed to one of them, until I started getting those digits.

I'm going to order a kit this week. The motorcycle itself is still under a note, which means I'm also still paying full insurance on it.

I know for certain, if I had the KDS, I could accomplish all of the changes in less than 1 hour.. even while taking a smoke break... and at general shop rate time of $140-$180 max.. (ridiculous price) per hour...  It's a $1000 job... doubling and tripling the "parts costs" is abhorred...
THIS is the only way to get back into action....  the kit runs $875 approx...
mind you, you will need a physical "key" that fits the ignition.. or you will need a complete ignition module also... with a key.

you have a stovekey in ignition, you are fine with that.. during programming, it will be used and paired when the ECU and FOBs are layed on the bike, and system programming takes place... as for wheel sensors..? if they ain't bad, they get programmed as is.. during the process.. you don't need new ones unless they are dead...
   21176-0748   SENSOR,TPMS 315MHZ   2 req'd....   (approx $213 each.. )

2008-'09
2 matched active fobs, matched to ECU, and ECU..kit
21175-0183   CONTROL UNIT-ELECTRONIC

2010-thru '14
1 active FOB, and ECU, matched kit
21175-0299   CONTROL UNIT-ELECTRONIC

2015 up
1 active FOB, paired to ECU, matched kit
21175-0730   CONTROL UNIT-ELECTRONIC

extras, after buying the above, will give you "spares"
passive credit card immobilizer/fobs, for programming,
21175-0256   SPARE FOB KEY blank may need to be purchased..

I'm going to show this to the guy who helped me tow the bike, and who's shop it's at. I'm confident that he has the skillset to make this happen. Heck, I probably could work it out as well, I just don't have the time, space, or tools. Not yet at least. The wheel sensors are fine, the dealership didn't even see the bike, they just threw all that pricing out on a plate with a big middle finger.

It realllly makes me furious, to read of dealerships that do things like you have been dealt.. even with "part markup", the price of parts, and time/labor would never get over $1500, for everything, Kit, labor, etc... and the tech won't even have to wash his hands afterwards..

It get's me fired up as well. One of them is a reputable dealership with tons of five star reviews and a website that claims honesty, fairness, and best prices, all as core values.

Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on August 27, 2019, 02:20:20 pm
Again, I'll remind you, no matter what you will still need someone with the KDS3 Kawasaki software, and interface setup, in order to properly install the parts and have them done in the correct order, and properly programmed to the bike...

so, don't attempt installing or removing stuff until you have someone that can do the programming...

I'll also note, this bike has sat for a long time; when the programming and replacement process is going to be done the bike MUST have a reliable and fully charged battery... one that is not in question, preferably a new battery, installed and all of the terminations and cable ends, including the grounding point on the frame, must be abrasively cleaned and insuring fresh good connections...
an older battery that gives only 12v, or less than 14v fully charged, will not survive the programming time, nor provide the needs.

glad to be of assistance with the info for you.
best of luck getting it on the road.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: jwh20 on August 28, 2019, 03:42:08 am
It seems to me that the dealer's quote for parts to revive this bike is out of bounds.  Kawasaki lists a part number for a new KiPass ECU and a FOB, PN 21175-0730, which at https://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/kaw/50a99d8ef87002235ccd8081/ignition-switch-locks-reflectors, (https://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/kaw/50a99d8ef87002235ccd8081/ignition-switch-locks-reflectors,) is $871.  (See callout 21175B.)  Indeed you do need a KDS3 to complete this but even assuming 2 hours of labor for the install of the ECU and programming with the KDS3 (say $120/hour) that's another $240.  So you should be able to get out of this for $1000 more or less.

Did the dealer itemize the $2400 quote?  By the way, I'd ignore the TPMS issue at this point.  That's the least of your problems.  I'll also STRONGLY recommend that you purchase at least one additional "credit card" Key Immobilizer FOB as well (PN 21175-0256, SPARE FOB KEY - $45/each) and have them programmed to your bike at the same time.  It takes only a few additional minutes with the KDS3 to do this and will help prevent a repeat of this unfortunate scenario in the future.

Where are you located?  There are several frequenters of this board who have a KDS unit, myself included, so perhaps someone near you could help out.  One issue you do have is that the seat will need to be removed to gain access, and since you have no "hard" key either, the lock will need to be picked or the seat otherwise removed.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on August 28, 2019, 07:07:05 pm
I kinda mentioned that above.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: YHSublime on August 29, 2019, 01:16:33 pm
Again, I'll remind you, no matter what you will still need someone with the KDS3 Kawasaki software, and interface setup, in order to properly install the parts and have them done in the correct order, and properly programmed to the bike...

so, don't attempt installing or removing stuff until you have someone that can do the programming...

Got it, so my guy probably can not do that. Grumble Grumble.

I'll also note, this bike has sat for a long time; when the programming and replacement process is going to be done the bike MUST have a reliable and fully charged battery... one that is not in question, preferably a new battery, installed and all of the terminations and cable ends, including the grounding point on the frame, must be abrasively cleaned and insuring fresh good connections...

an older battery that gives only 12v, or less than 14v fully charged, will not survive the programming time, nor provide the needs.

Also super helpful, thanks for the additional details.

It seems to me that the dealer's quote for parts to revive this bike is out of bounds.  Kawasaki lists a part number for a new KiPass ECU and a FOB, PN 21175-0730, which at https://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/kaw/50a99d8ef87002235ccd8081/ignition-switch-locks-reflectors, (https://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/kaw/50a99d8ef87002235ccd8081/ignition-switch-locks-reflectors,) is $871.  (See callout 21175B.)  Indeed you do need a KDS3 to complete this but even assuming 2 hours of labor for the install of the ECU and programming with the KDS3 (say $120/hour) that's another $240.  So you should be able to get out of this for $1000 more or less.

Seems to be what I'm hearing, and that number sounds a lot better. Finding a KDS3 seems to be the biggest hurdle. I might just have to go down to the dealership with the parts in hand and explain exactly what I need. I bet they'll love that.

Did the dealer itemize the $2400 quote?  By the way, I'd ignore the TPMS issue at this point.  That's the least of your problems.  I'll also STRONGLY recommend that you purchase at least one additional "credit card" Key Immobilizer FOB as well (PN 21175-0256, SPARE FOB KEY - $45/each) and have them programmed to your bike at the same time.  It takes only a few additional minutes with the KDS3 to do this and will help prevent a repeat of this unfortunate scenario in the future.

They did not, they had to go and "research" for most of the morning to even figure out exactly how to tackle the issue. You better believe I'm getting keys for days for this thing. The hindsight thing is 20/20 as the saying goes, when I bought the bike used I had no idea about all these things I'm learning the hard way.

Where are you located?  There are several frequenters of this board who have a KDS unit, myself included, so perhaps someone near you could help out.  One issue you do have is that the seat will need to be removed to gain access, and since you have no "hard" key either, the lock will need to be picked or the seat otherwise removed.

I'm living in Arlington, Virginia right now. I'm 10 minutes from Washington, DC, and a hop skip and a jump from most places in MD as well.

Good news is the seat has been removed, bad news, no Passive FOB.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on August 29, 2019, 03:02:04 pm
BUMMER...
I moved from Hanover Va., back to Ohio in '11 and I probably could have helped you out a bit if I was still there, I know there is a COG member near you that does actually have a KDS, just have to roust him up, and see which version he has... gimme a while, I'll be back.. and put you in touch with him.. has to be 100x better than trying to deal with a dealership that has no clues... Only dealer I ever trusted is in Richmond, Ultimate Cycle... they are good folks..
I think I know someone in Md. that also has a KDS...
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: YHSublime on August 29, 2019, 05:44:09 pm
BUMMER...
I moved from Hanover Va., back to Ohio in '11 and I probably could have helped you out a bit if I was still there, I know there is a COG member near you that does actually have a KDS, just have to roust him up, and see which version he has... gimme a while, I'll be back.. and put you in touch with him.. has to be 100x better than trying to deal with a dealership that has no clues... Only dealer I ever trusted is in Richmond, Ultimate Cycle... they are good folks..
I think I know someone in Md. that also has a KDS...

Its still busy out here. And expensive. The cost of living is high.

I'll take any calvary you can find. The motorcycle is currently in MD, the guy who towed it is going to see what his buds at the dealership come back with as well.

I'm excited at the prospect of being on the saddle again!
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: chile62 on September 08, 2019, 01:48:08 pm
I just went thru this.  https://www.carmousa.com (https://www.carmousa.com) was the solution.  You will need to send them your ignition switch with the black box that is attached to it, plus $380.00, and  you'll get 2 keys, nothing else is needed to make your bike run.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 08, 2019, 04:27:30 pm
I just went thru this.  https://www.carmousa.com (https://www.carmousa.com) was the solution.  You will need to send them your ignition switch with the black box that is attached to it, plus $380.00, and  you'll get 2 keys, nothing else is needed to make your bike run.

OK
I've been dealing with Kipass issues for people since 2007.

please explain, exactly what you mean by
"You will need to send them your ignition switch with the black box that is attached to it, plus $380.00"

And also tell us all, exactly how this worked out...

I need some confirmation that you actually did this... I'm not believing it at all. Sorry, but I am skeptical about it in every way.

Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: chile62 on September 08, 2019, 06:30:44 pm
Man of blues, You sir, have a right to believe and or think whatever you wish.  i, on the other hand, dont have to prove anything to you.

YHSublime, you and I lost our FOBs around the same time (looking at my original thread about my lost FOB http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23715.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23715.0)  ). call or text Kevin at Carmousa it will take about 3 weeks and you will be riding again.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: maxtog on September 08, 2019, 08:17:03 pm
YHSublime, you and I lost our FOBs around the same time (looking at my original thread about my lost FOB [url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23715.0[/url] ([url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23715.0[/url])  ). call or text Kevin at Carmousa it will take about 3 weeks and you will be riding again.


Interesting, to say the least.

https://www.carmousa.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4105 (https://www.carmousa.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4105)

They even sell active fobs for $21????  (Says "0 in stock", however).

I wonder why it takes so long, though.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: fartymarty on September 08, 2019, 09:08:40 pm
Quote from: Carmo Electronics wbsite
Send the following items to Carmo electronics:
-ECM/ECU-unit of your motorcycle (Immobilizer ring for Yamaha, dashboard for Ducati/Aprilia motorcycles)
-One or two new chipkeys (or we can order them for you)
-Copy of your original purchase papers

Within 10 days we will send everything back!

It figures that near the end (if not the end) of the C14s production life, that this service would become available.  ::)
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: PH14 on September 08, 2019, 09:57:12 pm
Man of blues, You sir, have a right to believe and or think whatever you wish.  i, on the other hand, dont have to prove anything to you.

YHSublime, you and I lost our FOBs around the same time (looking at my original thread about my lost FOB [url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23715.0[/url] ([url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23715.0[/url])  ). call or text Kevin at Carmousa it will take about 3 weeks and you will be riding again.


You may not think you have to prove anything, but it would be helpful on a forum to back up your claims, so others can benefit. You see, so far, no one has been able to do what you say they did. Verification would be a wonderful thing, and considering this is a forum where people actually share information and knowledge, when someone balks at providing confirmation of a claim such as yours, people tend to become even more skeptical.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: chile62 on September 09, 2019, 06:10:02 am
You may not think you have to prove anything, but it would be helpful on a forum to back up your claims, so others can benefit. You see, so far, no one has been able to do what you say they did. Verification would be a wonderful thing, and considering this is a forum where people actually share information and knowledge, when someone balks at providing confirmation of a claim such as yours, people tend to become even more skeptical.

I would love to help, but when a fellow forum member questions your integrity in a public forum, and basically demands proof of your actions and calls you a liar, that upsets me.

Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: VirginiaJim on September 09, 2019, 06:18:30 am
Tone it down, fellas...
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Conrad on September 09, 2019, 07:15:24 am
I would love to help, but when a fellow forum member questions your integrity in a public forum, and basically demands proof of your actions and calls you a liar, that upsets me.

You have to understand something here. Most of us have been on this forum for a LONG time. People come and go but there are a lot of folks that have been here forever. Please check the post counts and you'll see what I mean.

We've seen it time and again. Someone looses their ONE working FOB and comes here for help. Up until now there was only one thing to do and that's to bend over and pay ~$1k to get their bike back on the road.

Now here you come, a guy with 14 posts, and tell us that there's another way to recover from a lost FOB but you won't say much else. Then when someone questions you about it (admittedly, not in the best way but that's how MOB can be), you go off.

What are we to think? What would you think in our positions?

You say that you don't have anything to prove? That's true, you don't. But if you'd like to get along with everyone here and get some help when you need it, then yes, you do have something to prove...
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: VirginiaJim on September 09, 2019, 10:37:14 am
+1
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: PH14 on September 09, 2019, 11:16:45 am
+2
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: PH14 on September 09, 2019, 11:22:31 am
I would love to help, but when a fellow forum member questions your integrity in a public forum, and basically demands proof of your actions and calls you a liar, that upsets me.

I understand what you are saying, but I for one, would really love to see a video of the system working. Are the keys used in place of the original stove key? If so, what keeps water out of the switch assembly?

Their site also mentions they want copies of your original purchase papers. Did you send those, and if so, did the papers include the code from Kawasaki that is used to program new fobs? That would be an important detail. IN all the years I have been on this forum, and others, (I have a 2009 bought new in 2010 and have been here since buying it.) I have never seen anyone get a new fob programed without the code.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: B.D.F. on September 09, 2019, 11:41:56 am
I took a look and they are really throwing me with the 'red' key and the 'black' key. Especially since they are the exact same price as the active fob, $21.38 each. ?? ?? I believe Ducati has a red (master) and black (slave) keys but of course C-14 keys have no electronics in them in the first place so why two different types? They show all combinations with one red key and the rest black, just as it would work with a Ducati but that is not how the KiPass system works. They further explain that both the keys and fob have to be programmed, which again is odd. And they are calling it the 'KISS' system. ??

Anyway, it all sounds great if it works and is as it appears (a real, active fob for $21 as opposed to a 'credit card' type of fob).

Brian

Interesting, to say the least.

https://www.carmousa.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4105 (https://www.carmousa.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4105)

They even sell active fobs for $21????  (Says "0 in stock", however).

I wonder why it takes so long, though.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: chile62 on September 09, 2019, 12:48:00 pm
Here's my experience.  (English is my second language, grammar, punctuation.are some of my weaknesses)

Some time in August of 2018 my keyfob (the only thing i had to start my Connie) fell off my desk and into the trash can next to it.
Started looking for used ECM/ECUs with a matching keyfob, in the process i found out that my 2012 requires a 2010 thru 2014 ecm (other years may not work correctly)
Searching around the web, i found Carmo.nl i contacted them and asked a bunch of questions, and they answered them all, very patiently. (I was thinking that it was too good to be true)
I had/have some health issues, had to put this aside for a while.
After a couple of months, i found CarmoUSA and contacted Kevin thru e-mail.  He sent me a picture of the computer that i needed to send them, and to my surprise it wasnt the main ECU but instead it was the black box that is attached to the ignition switch under the handle bars (stove key?).
After i drilled the key switch away from the top brace, i threw the switch and the black box attached to it into a box and along a few papers proving that it is my bike sent them to CarmoUSA.
About 2 weeks later i received an invoice for around 360 to 380 (they charged me about $40,00 to send it all back to me)
About a week after that, i had my switch and its computer back  put it on the bike and it cranked and ran right away.
Because i did not know that there are 2 different keys to the Connies, ( A key and B key) i did not specify to CarmoUSA which key i had they sent me the wrong key. ( if you do not know the differerence between the A and B keys, please research this,  "A" keys will not fit "B" switches and "B" keys will not fit "A" switches.
I took one of the keys that CarmoUSA sent back and cut off the metal part of the key and kept the plastic piece (with the transponder or key chip) and  epoxied it to the front side of the switch right under the plastic bezel.
To start my bike, i just put a key in the switch, push it in all the way, wait a second, when the key picture comes up on the screen i turn my key to the left, or center position, and start the engine. to turn it off i turn the key to the right, pull the key out, put it in my pocket and walk away. (while admiring my wonderful Connie.

Sorry my English sucks.

Ed
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: chile62 on September 09, 2019, 01:13:58 pm
Quick video I made.  https://youtu.be/dcghuAh-w04 (https://youtu.be/dcghuAh-w04)

I think they send this computers overseas, where they are opened and the original chip that receives the code from the original keyfob and verifies it, is removed and replaced with a blank one.
the red and black keys are then "electronically married" to the new chip, the computer is then re-potted and sealed, and sent back.  No need to get KDS involved.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcghuAh-w04&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcghuAh-w04&feature=youtu.be)

Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: chile62 on September 09, 2019, 01:19:46 pm
You have to understand something here. Most of us have been on this forum for a LONG time. People come and go but there are a lot of folks that have been here forever. Please check the post counts and you'll see what I mean.

We've seen it time and again. Someone looses their ONE working FOB and comes here for help. Up until now there was only one thing to do and that's to bend over and pay ~$1k to get their bike back on the road.

Now here you come, a guy with 14 posts, and tell us that there's another way to recover from a lost FOB but you won't say much else. Then when someone questions you about it (admittedly, not in the best way but that's how MOB can be), you go off.

What are we to think? What would you think in our positions?

You say that you don't have anything to prove? That's true, you don't. But if you'd like to get along with everyone here and get some help when you need it, then yes, you do have something to prove...

You are 100% right,  i tried to share my knowledge as best as i could above.  My less than ideal communications skills, will probably raise more questions, i will try to answer as best as I can.

Ed
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 09, 2019, 03:32:49 pm
OK
I've been dealing with Kipass issues for people since 2007.

please explain, exactly what you mean by
"You will need to send them your ignition switch with the black box that is attached to it, plus $380.00"

And also tell us all, exactly how this worked out...

I need some confirmation that you actually did this... I'm not believing it at all. Sorry, but I am skeptical about it in every way.

So please allow me to go back, and explain why I was a skeptic, I was not calling you a "liar", or belittling you in any manner; I wanted clarity and confirmation...

Now, with what you have posted here, and reading the website completely, and understanding "all" of the parts involved, anyone that has lost active fobs, and has no key, or passive fob either, is at the mercy of what I explained in my prior response, #3.

BDF brought up the same thing as I was mulling over, but for clarity I'll take a moment and say a few things about the difference of "making the bike run", and "making the bike run correctly, like it did from the factory"... i.e., with a normal FOB in pocket scenario.

The company you sent the money and parts to, is no different than a foreign one that popped up a while back, in Poland; I addressed the scenario they were "proposing" as the "cure" at that time. Other than trusting sending all that stuff overseas, with no sure outcome (which was verified by someone that did just that, and ended up without his parts, charged $$$, and months later ended up buying e-bay parts).

In both instances, it's clear that they crack open the chip reader on the ignition switch..(it really is only that, a reader...) and replace a module with one that will read a "coded chip", and paired them. This is where the Red Key Black Key, you got, and the box you ended up attaching the passive chip to...   as you ignition switch was already "paired" to the bikes Kipass ECU, it didn't require a KDS.
BUT, had that module been damaged, or you simply didn't have thee stove key, it would have been more involved;  When you got the RED key, you should have placed it against the "bump" on the ignition switch, and seen if the stove knob could be actuated.. likely it would, because the RED key had a chip also (kinda weird they sent you a key that was opposite hand, since you actually sent them YOUR knob key in the first place... ) I guess you could have cut the head off that key, and glued it to the bump, and you would have had the BLACK key (which I assume also has a chip), which worked, and would turn the lock, as your new spare...
End result is:
for the money you spent, you still have no "active FOB", nor can you program one.. all you are doing is using the passive immobilizer.. to start and run the bike. If you loose your key now, you will be back to square one again. Chipped keys are easy to replace, and only run $20 with a chip, or $4 without the chip, but then, if they aren't cut to match the rest of the bikes locks, luggage, fuel tank, seat... etc.. you are still s.o.l.  which was the case the original poster here came to us with..

The only way to make the bike "see" a real pocket fob, is to do what is noted in my #3 posting. period.

By the way, the fellow that felt all insulted, when I explained the whole "Poland company", ended up spending well over $1k+ in the end, as he lost his parts to the Polish repair company, paid them a bunch of $$$, still had no running bike, and ended up "buying all the locks and parts" matched, from e-bay..for like $800 more, and then went online in a facebook page, to call azz on the "unfriendly idiots" from the COG sites, that tried to tell him the simple stuff.  ::) ::) ::) ::)

I will say this tho, if you ever need a "new ECU, or Ignition switch", you will find what I have said, to be very painfully true.
Without an active FOB and a key... you can't program another active fob, which you still don't have.

You also have an "open ignition lock" exposed to the weather, when you remove your stove key... so the result may be, "yes the bike runs", I don't dispute that... but the conditions resultant are not in my opinion, equal to a fully functioning as delivered security system, that works as it was designed.  So, paying $400+, to make the bike run, vs $875 to make a secure bike, as designed, I would say is whatever you think it's worth, either way. I ride in the rain, all the time... I know what my choice would be.
Hopefully, the company the sent you the "fixed" switch and chipped keys, goes to the extent of using "various chip codes"... but in the back of my mind, I think they would just keep coding all those "re-furbs" with the same chipset... so you may not have a "unique" chip anymore....

I do thank you for sharing that all tho, it is a viable means, if needed, someday.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 09, 2019, 03:46:49 pm
I almost forgot to ask this, but I still must;

Do you get "lost transponder" or "transponder battery" error codes on your dash now?

just asking.. I don't think you sent them the Kipass ECU, so I have to assume these errors will still be on dash.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: gPink on September 09, 2019, 04:17:54 pm
I took a look and they are really throwing me with the 'red' key and the 'black' key. Especially since they are the exact same price as the active fob, $21.38 each. ?? ?? I believe Ducati has a red (master) and black (slave) keys but of course C-14 keys have no electronics in them in the first place so why two different types? They show all combinations with one red key and the rest black, just as it would work with a Ducati but that is not how the KiPass system works. They further explain that both the keys and fob have to be programmed, which again is odd. And they are calling it the 'KISS' system. ??

Anyway, it all sounds great if it works and is as it appears (a real, active fob for $21 as opposed to a 'credit card' type of fob).

Brian

If I recall, with the Duc, if you lose the red master you're screwed.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: B.D.F. on September 09, 2019, 04:40:42 pm
First may I suggest, Ed, that you NOT apologize for your English skills; they seem to be excellent, and certainly adequate so that any English speaker can understand you. Hey, better than some native English speakers!

What you are explaining about the work- around for your C-14 is not really addressing KiPass but instead the RFID portion of the system located in the ignition switch housing. What they provided is not the main way KiPass is supposed to work but instead the back- up system for KiPass. Now that is fine, and well and good if you are satisfied but it is not the way KiPass was intended to operate. That said, if they can allow the back-up portion to operate, then it should be possible to use the KDS software (dealers have that) to code the system to use a new RF fob from Kawasaki. Those are somewhere around $300, with labor to code the bike to recognize them at something like $50 to $100. Once you have a working RF fob, you can just leave it in your pocket and when you press down on the main stove knob key, the system will activate (if it senses a legitimate fob within range).

Again, if you are happy with what you have then all is well and that is great.

My only other thought would be you might want to put something over the ignition switch key opening because that was not intended to be left open all the time- the original "stove knob" key (called that because it looks like a control knob from a kitchen stove) has a large diameter cone that covers the ignition switch and protects it from the elements.

This also explains the $21.XX cost for a 'fob' because it is not the RF fob pictured but instead either a chipped key or a 'credit card' fob that will not work unless held against the ignition switch housing. So for those who have lost all fobs, this may be a workable solution but not a complete system as came with the bike originally; that will cost another ~$400 or so for an RF fob and coding the bike to recognize it, which will bring the price up to more than $800.

I am not knocking this service, merely pointing out that it is not the same as getting a new ECU and two new RF fobs. To get to that point would be close to the same cost as buying original equipment and installing it on the bike.

Thanks for your detailed explanation of this service, and thanks for pointing it out in the first place- I am sure many of us, including myself, did not know this service was even available.

Brian

Here's my experience.  (English is my second language, grammar, punctuation.are some of my weaknesses)

Some time in August of 2018 my keyfob (the only thing i had to start my Connie) fell off my desk and into the trash can next to it.
Started looking for used ECM/ECUs with a matching keyfob, in the process i found out that my 2012 requires a 2010 thru 2014 ecm (other years may not work correctly)
Searching around the web, i found Carmo.nl i contacted them and asked a bunch of questions, and they answered them all, very patiently. (I was thinking that it was too good to be true)
I had/have some health issues, had to put this aside for a while.
After a couple of months, i found CarmoUSA and contacted Kevin thru e-mail.  He sent me a picture of the computer that i needed to send them, and to my surprise it wasnt the main ECU but instead it was the black box that is attached to the ignition switch under the handle bars (stove key?).
After i drilled the key switch away from the top brace, i threw the switch and the black box attached to it into a box and along a few papers proving that it is my bike sent them to CarmoUSA.
About 2 weeks later i received an invoice for around 360 to 380 (they charged me about $40,00 to send it all back to me)
About a week after that, i had my switch and its computer back  put it on the bike and it cranked and ran right away.
Because i did not know that there are 2 different keys to the Connies, ( A key and B key) i did not specify to CarmoUSA which key i had they sent me the wrong key. ( if you do not know the differerence between the A and B keys, please research this,  "A" keys will not fit "B" switches and "B" keys will not fit "A" switches.
I took one of the keys that CarmoUSA sent back and cut off the metal part of the key and kept the plastic piece (with the transponder or key chip) and  epoxied it to the front side of the switch right under the plastic bezel.
To start my bike, i just put a key in the switch, push it in all the way, wait a second, when the key picture comes up on the screen i turn my key to the left, or center position, and start the engine. to turn it off i turn the key to the right, pull the key out, put it in my pocket and walk away. (while admiring my wonderful Connie.

Sorry my English sucks.

Ed
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 09, 2019, 04:42:45 pm
If I recall, with the Duc, if you lose the red master you're screwed.

well, as always, I have a hard time with some vendors that are versed in one bikes needs, and totally ignorant in different bikes.. If I want something for my Kawasaki, I expect the vendor to be versed enough in the "lingo" and present "systems" of my bike, to refer to each part intelligently, and call them by the correct factory names, and descriptions...

and when they don't... I simply won't do business with them..

Kinda like seeing the old famous "Muzzy License plate/fender eliminator" on their website... with the C14's bikes bags installed on the opposite sides / backwards, of where they should have been... and they kept that picture there for 4 years, just to sell "product"...
(then, they dissipated into ...oblivion...poof) ::) :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :nuts: :banana
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: maxtog on September 09, 2019, 05:03:36 pm
What sent off "red flags" in my mind was the whole "red" and "black" key thing, the photo of the WAY underpriced active fob on their site, and the photo of what appeared to be the main ECU on the site.

I can believe what you end up with is a hacked system that has no active fob, or way to use one, and an open-to-the-elements ignition key switch.  But the inconsistencies in the photos, the description, and the long turnaround time would not make me comfortable.  Perhaps they were just lazy in their descriptions and such.  At worst, it will scare away people like me, who have enough knowledge of the system to be dangerous.  At best, the resulting "product" is being somewhat mis-represented.

Further, unless they are using a longer-range passive RFID reader, the range is not enough to reach to the "replacement" passive key when it sits in the ignition switch.  I know this, because I regularly use the factory/stock passive RFID fob combined with the original stovepipe ignition key when I am too lazy to go retrieve the active fob from my jacket.  The range is probably less than 1cm.  So how are you supposed to use it properly with their hacked setup?  Take one key and put it in the ignition, take a SECOND passive key and hold it to the front of the ignition and while doing that press in the first key so you can then turn it?  Every time?  Yuck.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: chile62 on September 09, 2019, 05:28:44 pm

No, i do not have the OEM fob,  nor do i have a $7000.00 "brick" sitting in my garage.  As far as i know, (all the research i did) the red key can be "cloned" (i will try this at my local locksmith and i will report back as time allows.)

As far as the lock being exposed to the weather, it should not be much of an issue with routine maintenance.  None of the previous bikes that i have owned had a problem with  rain or hand washes.

Kipass is not a foolproof system,  someone that wants a Connie bad enough, will take it.  As I just proved, this bikes can be made to run just as the did from factory without the active/passive modules.

I tried to explain that i did not specify which key i had, unfortunately i was sent the wrong type key and it will not fit in my switch.  My solution to this problem was to break-off the metal part of the black key and attach it to the ignition switch/KIPASS computer. (i wanted to ride right away) i did not want to send everything back so they code the right type key for my bike.

I am aware of the fact that my "approach" does away with the extra security feature that KIPASS provides.  The bike is insured and watched by two Pitbulls and a well armed, and highly trained combat veteran that requires daily medication to remain somewhat calm. LOL :) ;)

Ed
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: chile62 on September 09, 2019, 05:35:13 pm
I almost forgot to ask this, but I still must;

Do you get "lost transponder" or "transponder battery" error codes on your dash now?

just asking.. I don't think you sent them the Kipass ECU, so I have to assume these errors will still be on dash.

The only message i have seen since i put it back together (about 500+ miles ago) is for the rear TPMS low battery, when its colder in the morning i get a message for both tires.  NO other codes/messages present
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Freddy on September 09, 2019, 06:00:48 pm
In the hope of adding clarity to a couple of mis-statements:

1. Maxtog said: I can believe what you end up with is a hacked system that has no active fob, or way to use one.........   This is untrue, as BDF noted a little above it: if they can allow the back-up portion to operate, then it should be possible to use the KDS software (dealers have that) to code the system to use a new RF fob from Kawasaki.

If the ignition can be turned on then a new Kaw active fob can be registered to the KIPASS ECU.


2. In reply 28 MOB asked: Do you get "lost transponder" or "transponder battery" error codes on your dash now?  The answer will obviously be: no.  Maxtog alluded to this where he says: ....... because I regularly use the factory/stock passive RFID fob combined with the original stovepipe ignition key when I am too lazy to go retrieve the active fob from my jacket.

The reason Maztog and chile62 didn't get the "lost transponder" warning is not because he (Max) had the active fob in his pocket, but because KIPASS does not 'look' for the active fob if the bike has been started using a passive fob. 

Thanks for reporting your experience on all this Chile62 - good work.       :chugbeer: to all. 
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: chile62 on September 09, 2019, 06:05:22 pm
In the hope of adding clarity to a couple of mis-statements:

1. Maxtog said: I can believe what you end up with is a hacked system that has no active fob, or way to use one.........   This is untrue, as BDF noted a little above it: if they can allow the back-up portion to operate, then it should be possible to use the KDS software (dealers have that) to code the system to use a new RF fob from Kawasaki.

If the ignition can be turned on then a new Kaw active fob can be registered to the KIPASS ECU.


2. In reply 28 MOB asked: Do you get "lost transponder" or "transponder battery" error codes on your dash now?  The answer will obviously be: no.  Maxtog alluded to this where he says: ....... because I regularly use the factory/stock passive RFID fob combined with the original stovepipe ignition key when I am too lazy to go retrieve the active fob from my jacket.

The reason Maztog and chile62 didn't get the "lost transponder" warning is not because he (Max) had the active fob in his pocket, but because KIPASS does not 'look' for the active fob if the bike has been started using a passive fob. 

Thanks for reporting your experience on all this Chile62 - good work.       :chugbeer: to all.

Thank you for clarifying this.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: chile62 on September 09, 2019, 06:07:56 pm
Once again, here is the short video i made this afternoon (my first link didnt work).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcghuAh-w04&t=19s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcghuAh-w04&t=19s)

Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: maxtog on September 09, 2019, 06:10:16 pm
In the hope of adding clarity to a couple of mis-statements:  1. Maxtog said: I can believe what you end up with is a hacked system that has no active fob, or way to use one.........   This is untrue, as BDF noted a little above it: if they can allow the back-up portion to operate, then it should be possible to use the KDS software (dealers have that) to code the system to use a new RF fob from Kawasaki.

Well, that is a good clarification, and an option I completely forgot about.  Of course, that ability is not included in the service.  I bet the dealer charges mad $ for that (like they do for most everything).
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: maxtog on September 09, 2019, 06:16:38 pm
Once again, here is the short video i made this afternoon (my first link didnt work).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcghuAh-w04&t=19s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcghuAh-w04&t=19s)

Nice video.  Plus, you correctly pronounce "Concours", something that seemingly half the people out there can't do :)   (Hint to those people, it doesn't sound like something in an airport).

I know I would not be happy with that outcome (essentially defeating KIPASS), but it is nice to have options, especially for those desperate to get it working on a budget.  We are likely to see much more of this in the future as the Concours 14 gets older and older and more used ones are being sold with only a single fob that then gets lost and the new owner has no idea just how dangerous it is to not have a spare fob.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Michelle on September 09, 2019, 06:58:36 pm
If it is all as Chile62 says, it would be possible to restore the bike to normal KIPASS operation. One would need the active fob and a replacement ignition.

Once the bike is powered on you can code a new active fob with KDS - then turn off. Power it again using the active fob and code a replacement ignition switch, which would then enable you to code the passives to the ignition.

I don't know if that would work out cheaper than replacing the KIPASS module. I do know that an active fob in Australia costs $600.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Freddy on September 09, 2019, 07:06:01 pm
Daisy:   If it is all as Chile62 says, it would be possible to restore the bike to normal KIPASS operation. One would need the active fob and a replacement ignition. - not so.  If the ignition can be turned on, as shown, replacement ignition switch is not required as KIPASS has already recognised it.  You must have missed something in the translation.   ;D

I will be getting a new active fob shortly for $A390 for reasons detailed on the other forum.   :banghead:
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: PH14 on September 09, 2019, 08:24:23 pm
Once again, here is the short video i made this afternoon (my first link didnt work).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcghuAh-w04&t=19s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcghuAh-w04&t=19s)

Thanks for taking the time to post the follow ups, and the video. It is much appreciated. Glad you got your bike running again. That is the most important thing. It is good to see that you found a good workaround, and others may benefit from it as well.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Michelle on September 09, 2019, 08:30:14 pm
Daisy:   If it is all as Chile62 says, it would be possible to restore the bike to normal KIPASS operation. One would need the active fob and a replacement ignition. - not so.  If the ignition can be turned on, as shown, replacement ignition switch is not required as KIPASS has already recognised it.  You must have missed something in the translation.   ;D

I will be getting a new active fob shortly for $A390 for reasons detailed on the other forum.   :banghead:

What I got was that they have butchered the ignition to install a different chip. I could be wrong - its probably my turn.  :P

They would need to install an antenna loop to read the keyhead too ... no?
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Rubber_Snake on September 09, 2019, 08:56:04 pm
What I got was that they have butchered the ignition to install a different chip. I could be wrong - its probably my turn.  :P

They would need to install an antenna loop to read the keyhead too ... no?

Sounds like they replaced the chip reader module of the ignition and synced it with two keys, a red and a black one.  And as Max mentioned, when you use the passive card, it has to be right next to that module, within a centimeter, in order for it to recognize it.  So, yeah, an antenna loop around the ignition might do the trick.

If I were in Chile’s situation, I would keep the stove key in the ignition, and just use either passive key to activate the Kipass instead of mounting a passive key to the ignition.  And program some spares...
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Freddy on September 09, 2019, 09:08:22 pm
What I got was that they have butchered the ignition to install a different chip. I could be wrong - its probably my turn.  :P

They would need to install an antenna loop to read the keyhead too ... no?

Who cares?  He's got a great deal on the first ever solution to KIPASS & lost fob disaster.   :banana
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 09, 2019, 09:17:17 pm
What I got was that they have butchered the ignition to install a different chip. I could be wrong - its probably my turn.  :P

They would need to install an antenna loop to read the keyhead too ... no?

this complete situation, and cure, as cobbled up as it is, only provides Chili's bike to start, and run.

It does NOT offer the bike, to accept and record an active "pocket fob" in order for that to be possible, at least ONE active fob, must be placed in the zone to be sensed, and recorded, before a second "new active FOB" can be programmed..  there is no identity associated with a pocket fob, to access this.. only the "immobilzer functions" can be added.. so Freddy, I'm sorry, but I think you are off on the info. Not trying to be Debbie Downer here, it's just the fact.. an immobilizer chip, does not equal an active pocket fob.

and without a paired fob and ecu, one cannot be "added". an imoobilizer is programmed at a different stage of the FOB process.. without a FOB.. you just have immobilzer, and that will never be changed.

as I noted, it may work to get a ridable bike.. but it is not a representaion of the active fob/bike etc., as noted..

frankly, this bike as is, takes $2k off any selling price, in my honest opinion, or even more off, as anyone purchasing, is totally hosed.. totally hosed.. read that again, slowly.. and understand that statement.


I'm done with this convo, and actually done giving reliable, accurate, and concise helpfull assistance anymore.. this was the last straw.

Later.. best of luck... call me if you have my number.. I work cheap, comparatively.. but... toss the bike.


outta here. Tired of being the azzhole.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Freddy on September 09, 2019, 09:21:39 pm
Oh well, seeing as MOB's outta here it's not worth asking him a question on the ! active fob needed to add another one issue.  But for other interested parties, the process starts on page 26 of the KDS instruction manual, which was written for the early bikes that came with 2 active fobs.  The manual say you must have 'an already registered FOB must be used to be able to turn ON the vehicle to start the process.'  This includes the later passive immobiliser key fob thingy.  p/n 21175-0256 must already have been 'added' to the KIPASS ECU. 
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 09, 2019, 09:28:47 pm
Oh well, seeing as MOB's outta here it's not worth asking him a question on the ! active fob needed to add another one issue.

re read the "sequence" on programming.

you just aren't getting the picture yet.

If I could save somone a bunch of money, I would.. I made it a point when I got half price extended warranties years ago..   do you actually believe i would mislead someone?
WHY would I do that... after 15 years of giving everything I know, here... for free?


yah, bybye. done with this subject'
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 09, 2019, 09:44:20 pm
ASSuming the procedure is being done, by someone with braaaaaaanze.. and the ability of comprehension, to follow thru... I've played the reprogram game, and will admit, you may have to"re-educate" during the process... just mentioning.

sometimes it takes a couple "tries".

Last Kaw shop I was in, I asked for a job app.. they told me right off I was too old, but took my app..
I actually rode there on the C14, and asked the service manager how many valve adjusts he had done on them.. he looked at the floor.. done deal. evy body funny.. now you funny to..

Might go back and ask them for a job.. I dunno. :deadhorse: :chugbeer: :chugbeer: :1DeadBanana :1DeadBanana :hitfan: :hail:
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Michelle on September 09, 2019, 10:31:25 pm
The manual say you must have 'an already registered FOB must be used to be able to turn ON the vehicle to start the process.'  This includes the later passive immobiliser key fob thingy.  p/n 21175-0256 must already have been 'added' to the KIPASS ECU.

Except that now old mate has his bike turned on without a registered fob - thus bypassing that requirement - so as far as I can tell, it should be possible to introduce a new active fob?
When they wrote the manual, I don't think they saw this situation as even possible.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Freddy on September 09, 2019, 10:47:54 pm
Yes Daisy, that's my understanding too.  My comment was to indicate that as long as the ignition can be turned ON, as KDS states (whether by active, passive, cloned or 'fabricated chip in red & black keys') you can do anything/everything else.

MOB, you really need to do yourself a favour and get ya hands on KDS before you set yourself up as the foremost authority on KDS.  I will provide the software for you.  I don't claim that mantle nor does Michelle (Daisy on another forum we frequent) but we both have KDS and know how to use it. 

Ride safe.   :chugbeer:
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: maxtog on September 10, 2019, 05:37:58 am
Speculation:  It seems unlikely that the system would be designed that if the active fob were lost it would be impossible to add a new active fob by starting the process with only a passive fob (or even the active fob with a dead active transmitter).  The bike has shipped with only a single active fob for 10 years now.  The normal operation premise is that the active fob is taken with the user and the passive fob is the backup, typically stored at home; the most likely lost/damaged fob would be the active one.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Freddy on September 10, 2019, 06:04:37 am
That speculation is, in fact, how it works.  Chile62, however, has found someone who can 'transplant' something somewhere to fool the KIPASS ECU into recognising a passive fob.  Full points to him & them!
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Conrad on September 10, 2019, 07:09:03 am
this complete situation, and cure, as cobbled up as it is, only provides Chili's bike to start, and run.

It does NOT offer the bike, to accept and record an active "pocket fob" in order for that to be possible, at least ONE active fob, must be placed in the zone to be sensed, and recorded, before a second "new active FOB" can be programmed..  there is no identity associated with a pocket fob, to access this.. only the "immobilzer functions" can be added.. so Freddy, I'm sorry, but I think you are off on the info. Not trying to be Debbie Downer here, it's just the fact.. an immobilizer chip, does not equal an active pocket fob.

and without a paired fob and ecu, one cannot be "added". an imoobilizer is programmed at a different stage of the FOB process.. without a FOB.. you just have immobilzer, and that will never be changed.

as I noted, it may work to get a ridable bike.. but it is not a representaion of the active fob/bike etc., as noted..

frankly, this bike as is, takes $2k off any selling price, in my honest opinion, or even more off, as anyone purchasing, is totally hosed.. totally hosed.. read that again, slowly.. and understand that statement.


I'm done with this convo, and actually done giving reliable, accurate, and concise helpfull assistance anymore.. this was the last straw.

Later.. best of luck... call me if you have my number.. I work cheap, comparatively.. but... toss the bike.


outta here. Tired of being the azzhole.

Damn, you're tired of being the asshole? There's a solution to that, stop being an asshole. 
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: MrPepsi on September 10, 2019, 09:18:58 am
It seems every thread nowadays degrades into someone calling someone else names and people storming off all pissed off. Why can't we all just have civilized conversations anymore?

Who cares if they understand YOUR point of view, they have their own, and they're entitled to it too.
You can only inform them to a point. If they don't absorb the info, you really don't need to tell them 15 more times.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Rubber_Snake on September 10, 2019, 09:25:54 am
Not to throw gasoline on this little fire, but...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kawasaki-GTR-1400-Concours-14-KIPASS-hands-free-FOB-keys-programming/323687902211?hash=item4b5d4d6c03:g:8FEAAOSwIz5cXzCD (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kawasaki-GTR-1400-Concours-14-KIPASS-hands-free-FOB-keys-programming/323687902211?hash=item4b5d4d6c03:g:8FEAAOSwIz5cXzCD)

This must be that “service” from Poland.  An eBayer with a 90% rating is severely suspect.  Reviews of their service are hit and miss AND I couldn’t find evidence of a GTR being programmed.  Their $555.00 claim:


“FOR KAWASAKI GTR 1400 / 1400GTR / CONCOURS 14

The price includes: 1 hands free key FOB (OEM Kawasaki) + 1 spare passive key
programmed and ready to start your bike!

you would have to send us 3 units: ECU, KIPASS and ignition lock,
we will do reprogramming service without cutting neither ECU nor KIPASS plastic case (!)”
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: B.D.F. on September 10, 2019, 11:26:02 am
As long as you can get into the KiPass system using either method available (passive RFID in the ign. sw. housing or active RF fob that connects with the KiPass ECU under the rider's saddle) then you can alter / add fobs to the system using KDS.

The RFID is a back- door, simplified way into KiPass and it would seem this service chili has found can access that. They <may> be altering the circuitry in the ign. switch housing itself, thereby allowing any RFID chip they want to activate the system.

The red and black keys would not seem to really mean anything, they are simply another device that carries and RFID identifier and so are the same as the inactive part of the original KiPass system. In fact chili said that he had to hold the key that came back with the modified system close to the front of the ign. switch housing, where the RFID scanner is located, to start the bike. Other vehicles use this in different ways but KiPass only has one RFID identifier so there is no 'master' or slave keys. I think the page showing that is a left- over from the other pages that deal with other manufacturer's bikes.

Anyway, it does seem that there is a way to crowbar the system that is substantially less expensive than buying a new KiPass ECU that comes with new fobs. The downside is that it can only be used in emergency mode; if one wanted to use the system as designed, one would still have to purchase a new RF fob (~$300) and have the KiPass ECU coded to recognize it (by a dealer or someone with KDS software).

Brian

Yes Daisy, that's my understanding too.  My comment was to indicate that as long as the ignition can be turned ON, as KDS states (whether by active, passive, cloned or 'fabricated chip in red & black keys') you can do anything/everything else.

MOB, you really need to do yourself a favour and get ya hands on KDS before you set yourself up as the foremost authority on KDS.  I will provide the software for you.  I don't claim that mantle nor does Michelle (Daisy on another forum we frequent) but we both have KDS and know how to use it. 

Ride safe.   :chugbeer:
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: maxtog on September 10, 2019, 03:27:34 pm
This must be that “service” from Poland.  An eBayer with a 90% rating is severely suspect.  Reviews of their service are hit and miss AND I couldn’t find evidence of a GTR being programmed.

Shows a flag of Poland on the item, then says "Based in Ireland" on the user... but, whatever.

Not a chance in hell I would send the brains and guts of my $15K bike overseas with $580 to an unknown 90% Ebayer!  No USA phone number.  "No returns".  No references.  No web site.  Can't even find a review of the vendor that says "Kawasaki" or "Concours" or "GTR" in the description.  Wow, talk about risk!!
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: gPink on September 10, 2019, 04:10:50 pm
It seems every thread nowadays degrades into someone calling someone else names and people storming off all pissed off. Why can't we all just have civilized conversations anymore?

Who cares if they understand YOUR point of view, they have their own, and they're entitled to it too.
You can only inform them to a point. If they don't absorb the info, you really don't need to tell them 15 more times.

That's funny.....
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: MrPepsi on September 10, 2019, 05:10:13 pm
That's funny.....

yeah yeah, guilty as well sometimes.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: gPink on September 10, 2019, 05:14:58 pm
yeah yeah, guilty as well sometimes.
:chugbeer:
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Conrad on September 11, 2019, 06:21:16 am
It seems every thread nowadays degrades into someone calling someone else names and people storming off all pissed off. Why can't we all just have civilized conversations anymore?

Who cares if they understand YOUR point of view, they have their own, and they're entitled to it too.
You can only inform them to a point. If they don't absorb the info, you really don't need to tell them 15 more times.

I assume that you're talking about me? I didn't call anyone names. I just repeated what MOB said and agreed with him. Oh wait, should I have used z's instead of s's?   ;)
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: VirginiaJim on September 11, 2019, 07:24:18 am
That's funny.....


I'm keeping an eye on both you and C.  Troublemakers to the core you are.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: MrPepsi on September 11, 2019, 10:09:10 am
I assume that you're talking about me? I didn't call anyone names. I just repeated what MOB said and agreed with him. Oh wait, should I have used z's instead of s's?   ;)

Actually I didn't have anyone in mind, just seems some of these threads get everyone heated nowadays.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: VirginiaJim on September 11, 2019, 11:42:17 am
Totally agree with your initial assessment, Mr. Pepsi.



Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: gPink on September 11, 2019, 04:07:13 pm
It's all good, Jim.  Mr Pepsi is correct in that folks seem to choose to be offended more easily and more often these days. Makes for a lot of low hanging fruit.  8)
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Conrad on September 12, 2019, 06:40:29 am

I'm keeping an eye on both you and C.  Troublemakers to the core you are.

Your good eye?
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: strum on September 12, 2019, 08:27:46 am
 This was a very good informational post. It doesn't solve all the KIPASS issues but it does provide a work around that is a viable solution.
 Thanks for the Info Chile62 . 
 And more importantly
 Thank you for your service.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: VirginiaJim on September 12, 2019, 11:30:34 am
Your good eye?


Idiot.. :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Conrad on September 13, 2019, 06:27:12 am
 :)
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Wizzdome on September 13, 2019, 09:11:43 am
It is funny to read about the replacement key not waterproofing the the ignition... cause most people just leave their bikes out in the rain to rot with no cover...sheesh if you take care of your bike you wont have to worry about water in your ignition... riding in the rain with the key in it is not gonna fill it up with rain water... leaving it uncovered in the rain with the key out of it might though and well that just goes to the point I said take care of your bike.  Okay past my little rant.... this info would have been pretty usefull before my nephew started to tear the bike apart trying to bypass the security on a bike  that he owns but cant operate with a lost fob. Anti theft is great but not everyone  wants or needs it.... but for  those who do the price is extreme. Hell I think you could put a regular car alarm on a bike cheaper. The part is so expensive because it is not kawasaki.... it is Mitsubishi.... however the programming is  Kawasaki and this is where the cost goes up... come on kawasaki how hard would it be to have say a finger print scanner where the ignition  switch is and use your thumb to start the bike without the need for a key at all... security achieved keyless system achieved... never being stranded due to a lost fob... unless you lose your finger... now have all this registered  through dealership and maintain it on file for backup, recovery, and in the event of resale so it can be programmed to fit a new owner. Just a though on how to provide a reliable feature on a bike where as the current one should be recalled and refund people who had to buy a new fob or new ecu or ignition due to your poor lack of seeing what harm could become of the use of this type of system. If I ride out to the mountains... lost fob and died in the cold due to kipass there would be a serious lawsuit. Not saying it is bad just saying it is not 100% safe... and pointing out that kawasaki can do better and I hope they do.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: fartymarty on September 13, 2019, 09:49:33 am
If I ride out to the mountains... lost fob and died in the cold due to kipass there would be a serious lawsuit.

I'm not saying your other points aren't valid, but I grow weary of people that talk about suing some big corporations in a macho way thinking that the corporations are trembling in fear of their postmortem litigation. It will be difficult to find a decent lawyer that will take the case and it will be difficult to win once the jury knows that YOU decided to go riding in the cold, and YOU decided to ride in the mountains, and YOU lost the fob.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: PH14 on September 13, 2019, 10:49:45 am
It is funny to read about the replacement key not waterproofing the the ignition... cause most people just leave their bikes out in the rain to rot with no cover...sheesh if you take care of your bike you wont have to worry about water in your ignition... riding in the rain with the key in it is not gonna fill it up with rain water... leaving it uncovered in the rain with the key out of it might though and well that just goes to the point I said take care of your bike. 

Do you own a Concours? Just wondering, because its, "ignition," is not like other bikes. It isn't the key hole that is subject to water getting in, it is the openings around it that can get water in if the stove key is not in, which can cause issues with the mechanism that releases the lock when you depress the stove key. The stove key was designed to remain in the ignition, and made to cover it and prevent water intrusion. If that mechanism gets stuck, nothing will happen when you press the stove key down, and you will be stranded, unless you can find a good KROCK somewhere near.
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: VirginiaJim on September 13, 2019, 11:41:04 am
Or Maxwell's silver hammer and the Little Book of Essential English Swear Words by Stewart Ferris. 
Title: Re: Lost FOB, KIPASS replacement cost?
Post by: Freddy on September 13, 2019, 05:18:42 pm
See reply 18:  http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23202.msg302076#msg302076 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23202.msg302076#msg302076)

and the long version here:  http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/2010-c14-lost-fob-options-and-owners-rights/ (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/2010-c14-lost-fob-options-and-owners-rights/)

The poor man.   :chugbeer: