Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Pillow on December 07, 2019, 03:04:30 pm

Title: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Pillow on December 07, 2019, 03:04:30 pm
My 07 has a bit of a on/ off thing going on, just off of idle.  I've had a Shudabeen flash, which has made the bike almost perfectly fuelled.  It's just the low speed snatchiness.

Is it possible the secondary butterflies have been removed, and their loss is responsible for my low speed fuelling woes?  Is there a way to tell if they are present, without stripping the bike down?

Thoughts?  Advice?

Many thanks chaps, Nick
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: chi-gpz1100 on December 07, 2019, 03:23:37 pm
Do you have much free play in the throttle?  That can result in snatch too.  I prefer my throttle tight - with relatively no free play.  Makes the off/on transitions smoother (to me).
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on December 07, 2019, 03:30:08 pm
My 07

No such thing.  You must have a 2008 model (first model year).

Quote
has a bit of a on/ off thing going on, just off of idle.  I've had a Shudabeen flash, which has made the bike almost perfectly fuelled. It's just the low speed snatchiness.

As Chi pointed out, this is almost always due to throttle play needing to be adjusted.  It takes only about 60 seconds to do.  I find it needs adjustment at least every few years.

Quote
Is it possible the secondary butterflies have been removed, and their loss is responsible for my low speed fuelling woes?

You shouldn't have the bike flashed if the secondaries are removed....  controlling the secondary butterflies is 95% of what the flash does.  If the flies were removed, you would notice almost no difference before and after the flash... otherwise, the change is dramatic.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: gPink on December 07, 2019, 04:29:28 pm
Click bait... >:(  :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Michelle on December 07, 2019, 05:04:15 pm
No such thing.  You must have a 2008 model (first model year).

You do know there are other countries ... right?  ;)
OP hasn't given a location and some places did indeed get 07 models.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Freddy on December 07, 2019, 05:18:22 pm
..........built in 07 but advertised 2008MY (model year) down here - everything's a year older than what the salesperson says.   :o

But all this is :offtopic:
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: BruceR on December 07, 2019, 06:05:44 pm
I saw the title and thought this was a post about my ex wife?!?!

As was mentioned earlier I'd check throttle cables as the first/easiest/cheapest fix.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 07, 2019, 06:44:50 pm
Location is Uk and they do refer to the bike as an 07 at times.  Keep calm, and carry on.


As for the OP, throttle tamers do help.  It helped me for sure.  Also make sure that there is the correct amount of free play in the throttle as well.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on December 08, 2019, 12:10:47 am
..........built in 07 but advertised 2008MY (model year) down here - everything's a year older than what the salesperson says.   :o

Everything with vehicles is communicated by model year, not when it was actually made or purchased.  The annoying thing is the release of the next "model year" earlier and earlier, as if consumers are that stupid.  Kawasaki is pretty consistent, though (sticking pretty close to Sept/Oct).

There is nothing correct about calling a 2008 Concours a "2007."  Huge and minor changes in model year versions will cause major confusion with what was actually purchased (and what features it has, what specs, what parts).   If there is ever any question, the VIN puts it to rest (since the model year is encoded in it).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_identification_number#Vehicle_identifier_section

So while it might be OK to say "I bought it in 2007" when referring to a 2008, it is not correct to say "I have a 2007" or "My 2007" (as the OP did; regardless of where).  There are times semantics matter a lot.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Pillow on December 08, 2019, 04:43:21 am
Hi all

Thank you all so much for your replies.  Very informative.  I think as much as anything, I wondered if my bike had the flies- I am planning on a full service in Spring, but can't take the bike off the road as it's my 'daily drive'.

My bike is registered on 1st August 2007 and I'm in England

The title was intentional :)

I've adjusted the cables and idle speed.  Have stuff to do, so wont test it until my commute tomorrow, but I think it will make a big difference.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Daytona_Mike on December 08, 2019, 04:44:46 am
ZG1400 aka in the US -Concours- started as a 2007 model in Europe.
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/kawasaki/gtr1400/2007/ (https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/kawasaki/gtr1400/2007/)

It is very easy to check for secondary throttle plates. Remove seat...then gas tank...Remove inspection plates. 10 minutes maybe total. You can see the two inspection plates in this picture
http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/fuel-tank-removal-39649/ (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/fuel-tank-removal-39649/)
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Pillow on December 08, 2019, 04:51:25 am
It is very easy to check for secondary throttle plates. Remove seat...then gas tank...Remove inspection plates. 10 minutes maybe total.

Ok.  Much easier than I thought.  I would like to know, so I can restore them if they're not there.

Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Daytona_Mike on December 08, 2019, 04:54:25 am
Yes..Mine were missing. I had to buy a whole throttle body set off eBay because  the plates and screws are not sold separately. They are cheap on ebay. Any year will work
my bike was extremely snatchy without them
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on December 08, 2019, 06:15:29 am
I've adjusted the cables and idle speed.  Have stuff to do, so wont test it until my commute tomorrow, but I think it will make a big difference.

Hopefully that will do the trick.  On mine, it does.  The C-14 is already very "snatchy", natively/stock, which is why I first installed a "Throttle Tamer" (which was perfect).   But the Shoodabeen flash also addresses "snatch", so now mine is a little over-corrected (whatever one would call the opposite of "snatchy."
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: gPink on December 08, 2019, 06:37:36 am
Hopefully that will do the trick.  On mine, it does.  The C-14 is already very "snatchy", natively/stock, which is why I first installed a "Throttle Tamer" (which was perfect).   But the Shoodabeen flash also addresses "snatch", so now mine is a little over-corrected (whatever one would call the opposite of "snatchy."
cocky?
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 08, 2019, 06:52:20 am
LOL..
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Conrad on December 08, 2019, 07:03:58 am
Location is Uk and they do refer to the bike as an 07 at times.  Keep calm, and carry on.


As for the OP, throttle tamers do help.  It helped me for sure.  Also make sure that there is the correct amount of free play in the throttle as well.

That reminded me of some funny coasters that my wife just bought.

Tut, tut,....language my dear friend. (the management)
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on December 08, 2019, 07:31:45 am
cocky?

OMG
I supposed I asked for that...
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 08, 2019, 03:32:35 pm
Hi all

Thank you all so much for your replies.  Very informative.  I think as much as anything, I wondered if my bike had the flies- I am planning on a full service in Spring, but can't take the bike off the road as it's my 'daily drive'.

My bike is registered on 1st August 2007 and I'm in England

The title was intentional :)

I've adjusted the cables and idle speed.  Have stuff to do, so wont test it until my commute tomorrow, but I think it will make a big difference.

My '08 was purchased here in the USA on 7/7/07, but both the title, and registration for plates, describe the model year as 2008.
Furthermore, if you go to the Kawasaki website, and research parts; and input a model year of 2007.... you will find there is no Concours model listed; either C10, or C14... just to clarify.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: fartymarty on December 08, 2019, 04:33:03 pm
Let's use this scenario so we are all talking about the same nasty bits.

You're sitting at a red light astride your Gen II C14 in a left turn lane (US, right turn lane UK etc) behind a Prius (why not) ..anyway...the protected left turn arrow turns green
and the car in front of you goes into the turn...as the car is in the middle of the intersection you take off behind it...
just as the Prius is entering the lane of the cross street it brakes and decides to go slowly fade to the right so it can enter the corner gas station.
You don't have to brake, but you do have to close the throttle to avoid rear ending the Prius, ...finally the Prius is out of the way and you add a little
throttle...when Nasty Snatch.  Now in this scenario you aren't going very fast (you're behind a Prius remember)
and you are still in first gear and slightly banked for the slow turn, so you don't add a whole lot of throttle, just enough to continue.

I've had all three flashes* (4 if you count the OEM factory flash; 5 if you count eco mode {or whatever max' wants to insist on calling it ::)}), I've had my throttle adjusted per the owner's manual,
 and I have it as Steve said to adjust it where it has no play at all....and in the above scenario there has been no change...ever. It always does it. Now with over 90,000 miles on my bike it could be
that I have excessive drive line wear, however my C14 has done this since new in 2011. No I haven't tried a throttle tamer, but I think I can simulate one by being extra careful and gradually
 adding throttle which I have tried and got nasty snatch regardless.  Frankly I give up, it's just going to stay nasty. I still love the bike anyway and I like two of the 3 after market flashes (I'm not getting
 into the which is better wars, let's leave that on the other forum where it belongs) but none of them solved this problem.
Before someone says all bikes do that, my Dr650 doesn't, maybe all shaft drives do that as I've only owned one of those.

* Guhl; Steve's Decel; Ivan's
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on December 08, 2019, 04:59:36 pm
if you count eco mode {or whatever max' wants to insist on calling it ::)}),

I call it what the manual calls it- FEAM (fuel economy assistance mode), but I know what is meant by "eco", as long as we aren't talking about the confusing indicators on the dash.

Quote
and in the above scenario there has been no change...ever. It always does it. No I haven't tried a throttle tamer, but I think I can simulate one by being extra careful and gradually  adding throttle which I have tried and got nasty snatch regardless.

You might try one, but there is a certain amount of "snatchiness" that seems to be in the very soul of the Concours.  However, it is also my experience that both the Shoodaben reflash and Throttle Tamer help considerably with the issue.  (The Guhl flash doesn't address it at all; I suspect Ivan's doesn't much, but I don't know).

Quote
maybe all shaft drives do that as I've only owned one of those.

I don't see how it could relate to shaft drive.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: O.C. on December 09, 2019, 01:36:27 am
Hi all

Thank you all so much for your replies.  Very informative.  I think as much as anything, I wondered if my bike had the flies- I am planning on a full service in Spring, but can't take the bike off the road as it's my 'daily drive'.

My bike is registered on 1st August 2007 and I'm in England

The title was intentional :)

I've adjusted the cables and idle speed.  Have stuff to do, so wont test it until my commute tomorrow, but I think it will make a big difference.


There is a UK forum which may also be of help /interest to you , registration  is required its f.o.c  ;)   

http://www.gtr1400.co.uk/forums/ (http://www.gtr1400.co.uk/forums/)   
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Conrad on December 09, 2019, 05:49:54 am
Throttle Tamer to the rescue. (click to zoom)


Stock tube on the left Throttle Tamer on the right.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: B.D.F. on December 09, 2019, 06:10:39 am
Just my personal opinion and experience but taking all the slack out of the throttle cables has, at least so far, cured the throttle snatch on several C-14's I have adjusted and ridden, including my own. In fact, the difference between slightly loose and no slack throttle cables is almost amazing. Of course I have to be careful doing this so that there is no additional strain put on the throttle body throttle rod, and that is easy to do by not over- tightening the cables but making the adjustment slowly while carefully feeling for throttle cable slack has worked well for me.

Shaft drive bikes have more drive train play due to gear clearance and so present more of a problem with throttle snatch that chain drive bikes do. Plus chain drive bikes have a little give in the chain as it comes up to full tightness when rolling on the throttle while shaft drive bikes simply use up the clearance and the gears slam into each other.

Brian


<snip>

I've had all three flashes* (4 if you count the OEM factory flash; 5 if you count eco mode {or whatever max' wants to insist on calling it ::)}), I've had my throttle adjusted per the owner's manual,
 and I have it as Steve said to adjust it where it has no play at all....and in the above scenario there has been no change...ever. It always does it. Now with over 90,000 miles on my bike it could be
that I have excessive drive line wear, however my C14 has done this since new in 2011. No I haven't tried a throttle tamer, but I think I can simulate one by being extra careful and gradually
 adding throttle which I have tried and got nasty snatch regardless.  Frankly I give up, it's just going to stay nasty. I still love the bike anyway and I like two of the 3 after market flashes (I'm not getting
 into the which is better wars, let's leave that on the other forum where it belongs) but none of them solved this problem.
Before someone says all bikes do that, my Dr650 doesn't, maybe all shaft drives do that as I've only owned one of those.

* Guhl; Steve's Decel; Ivan's
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Pillow on December 09, 2019, 11:27:27 am
Rode much better on the test commute.  Problem feels 50%+ better.  If that's as good as I can get it, then I'll be ok with that.  One thing that does bother me is when 'overclosing' the throttle, the bike stalls.  And only when cold.  It did it before I made the adjustment, I just forgot to mention it.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Y0ssarian on December 09, 2019, 02:05:08 pm
I've found that fresh gear oil in the rear seems to help, also.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: B.D.F. on December 09, 2019, 03:02:39 pm
This is starting to look like that 'how to keep your rocket pointed up' thread.....

Brian

I've found that fresh gear oil in the rear seems to help, also.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on December 09, 2019, 03:19:58 pm
Shaft drive bikes have more drive train play due to gear clearance and so present more of a problem with throttle snatch that chain drive bikes do.

Never thought of it that way.

Quote
Plus chain drive bikes have a little give in the chain as it comes up to full tightness when rolling on the throttle while shaft drive bikes simply use up the clearance and the gears slam into each other.

But our shaft drive has a cush-drive that would absorb at least some shock (or at least isolate that from transmitting to the ground), acting like a "stretching" unit, too, no?
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on December 09, 2019, 03:25:05 pm
Rode much better on the test commute.  Problem feels 50%+ better.  If that's as good as I can get it, then I'll be ok with that.  One thing that does bother me is when 'overclosing' the throttle, the bike stalls.  And only when cold.  It did it before I made the adjustment, I just forgot to mention it.

Hmm.  Well, I can say I had a LOT of problems with cold stalling and ride performance when my valves started getting way out of spec.... to the point it was doing it not just when cold, either.  Let's hope that isn't your issue, too.  In which case I would ask how many miles does the bike have, and at what point was the valve lash last checked/adjusted?

Otherwise, what is your cold idle speed?  You can adjust that up some to compensate and it might help some...
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: B.D.F. on December 09, 2019, 03:29:50 pm
Chain drive bikes also have a cush drive and it serves the same purpose. But no matter how good the 'fix' or damper is, nothing beats not generating that metallic clack in the first place and chain drives just do not generate it. So yes, the cush drive does make a shaft drive motorcycle transfer power better and buffers it but shaft drives just cannot be as smooth as chains or belts.

As a chain drive comes up due to tension, it gets stiffer and more resistant to further stiffening. But it is a curve over time, not a sudden jolt and that is why chain drive motorcycles (and all machinery for that matter) are so well buffered regarding power transmission. Add to that that chain drives absorb <almost> no power and they really are a great way to transmit power on weight sensitive vehicles and other machinery. The only downside is that on a motorcycle, they are external and exposed to the environment; change the roller design to a timing chain design and seal it in an oil bath environment and it would approach nirvana, though at the price of complexity and a very involved sealing system. Hence shaft drives.....

Brian

Never thought of it that way.

But our shaft drive has a cush-drive that would absorb at least some shock (or at least isolate that from transmitting to the ground), acting like a "stretching" unit, too, no?
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: chi-gpz1100 on December 09, 2019, 03:38:18 pm
I think the way the throttle is closed plays a role in this as well.  It's a minute thing but rather than abruptly closing it, try easing into the closed position (if that makes sense) then easing out.  Last bike was chain driven ('09 fz1).  It too had some driveline lash in throttle transitions. It was a rocket alright, with just shy of 150hp at the wheel (thanks fuel moto). Easing in the transitions is key (as is the case with many things........).
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on December 09, 2019, 03:47:45 pm
I think the way the throttle is closed plays a role in this as well.  It's a minute thing but rather than abruptly closing it, try easing into the closed position (if that makes sense) then easing out. 

That is exactly how I describe "snatch"- abrupt power on AND off, making it difficult to control and finesse.  It was a HUGE adjustment coming from the ZRX and moving to the Concours.... and I could just not get used to it.  It wasn't until I installed the Throttle Tamer that I felt like I was in-control once again.  All it does is change the rate as which the throttle is opened and closed in the lower segments (making it require more movement).  A nice side-effect is the lined-metal tube seems much smoother.  The C-14 was my first fuel-injected bike, which I think was part of it; I have to wonder if later/different models act the same.

Anyway, I recommend people NOT install a Throttle Tamer if they are going to reflash with Shoodaben.  Flash first and see if that is enough change (because it does help) and if not, then take further action.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on December 09, 2019, 03:50:58 pm
Chain drive bikes also have a cush drive and it serves the same purpose. [...]

All good info.

Quote
But no matter how good the 'fix' or damper is, nothing beats not generating that metallic clack in the first place and chain drives just do not generate it. So yes, the cush drive does make a shaft drive motorcycle transfer power better and buffers it but shaft drives just cannot be as smooth as chains or belts.

While I can agree with all that, it isn't what I think of as "snatch" (see previous post), nor have I found those effects to be of much consequence.  But I can understand if some people might feel something like that and throw it into the "snatch" category.  Although I don't.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: strum on December 09, 2019, 08:27:45 pm
 I know no will run out and get a full exhaust to solve this but one pleasant surprise I have with my new exhaust and Steve's Area P MRP flash is the best on off throttle of any I have tried.  I cant find a snatchy spot any where.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Boomer on December 10, 2019, 02:42:41 am
Welcome Pillow  8)
Nice initial subject line  :rotflmao:

You will never get rid of the snatch, but correct adjustment of the cables and one of SiSFs flashes helps greatly (I have the Decel flash but have no experience of other flashes, so can we please not start the flash wars here?).
I used to filter (lane-split for the Yanks ;)) some 20-30 miles every day on the M25/A127 and when you are constantly switching between acceleration and deceleration like that the snatch gets REALLY irritating. On a normal ride it's barely noticeable but in traffic, especially with such a powerful bike, it's a PITA.
My carburettor fuelled GTR1000 doesn't have any snatch at all, despite having shaft drive.

I think part of the problem is that the frame/motor/ecu were designed for the ZZR1400 (ZX14) which is chain driven.
Is there anyone on here that has an FJR1300 or Honda ST1300 that can comment on how snatchy those injected shaft-drive bikes are.

I guess I'm asking if Shaft + Injection leads to Snatch  :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on December 10, 2019, 05:37:15 am
I think part of the problem is that the frame/motor/ecu were designed for the ZZR1400 (ZX14) which is chain driven.
Is there anyone on here that has an FJR1300 or Honda ST1300 that can comment on how snatchy those injected shaft-drive bikes are.

Or, conversely, anyone who has a ZX14 and can share how "snatchy" or not it is, compared to the C14?
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: O.C. on December 10, 2019, 07:15:16 am
Welcome Pillow  8)
Nice initial subject line  :rotflmao:

You will never get rid of the snatch, but correct adjustment of the cables and one of SiSFs flashes helps greatly (I have the Decel flash but have no experience of other flashes, so can we please not start the flash wars here?).
I used to filter (lane-split for the Yanks ;)) some 20-30 miles every day on the M25/A127 and when you are constantly switching between acceleration and deceleration like that the snatch gets REALLY irritating. On a normal ride it's barely noticeable but in traffic, especially with such a powerful bike, it's a PITA.
My carburettor fuelled GTR1000 doesn't have any snatch at all, despite having shaft drive.

I think part of the problem is that the frame/motor/ecu were designed for the ZZR1400 (ZX14) which is chain driven.
Is there anyone on here that has an FJR1300 or Honda ST1300 that can comment on how snatchy those injected shaft-drive bikes are.

I guess I'm asking if Shaft + Injection leads to Snatch  :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :popcorn:

I owned a Yamaha 1200 Super Tenere which was shaft drive and injected, it was only slightly 'snatchy' but it was a twin cylinder machine and had 2 mapping options Town or Sport modes, it also had fly by wire combined YCC-T Yamaha Chip Controlled Throttle.... it was still a little 'snatchy'   ::)   

FWIW, my pal who also owns a Super Ten has had his bike Chipped and he says it is now a smooth as silk  ;)   
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Pillow on December 10, 2019, 10:37:32 am
Hmm.  Well, I can say I had a LOT of problems with cold stalling and ride performance when my valves started getting way out of spec.... to the point it was doing it not just when cold, either.  Let's hope that isn't your issue, too.  In which case I would ask how many miles does the bike have, and at what point was the valve lash last checked/adjusted?

Otherwise, what is your cold idle speed?  You can adjust that up some to compensate and it might help some...

It's done about 34, 000, only 3, 000 of which are mine.  Seller said it had recently been done, but I was planning on checking in the warmer weather, when I would do 'everything'.  Cold idle speed is slightly slower than when warm, plus as I mentioned, if you overclose the throttle, it stalls (doesn't do this when warm).
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Pillow on December 10, 2019, 10:41:27 am
I think part of the problem is that the frame/motor/ecu were designed for the ZZR1400 (ZX14) which is chain driven.
Is there anyone on here that has an FJR1300 or Honda ST1300 that can comment on how snatchy those injected shaft-drive bikes are.

I guess I'm asking if Shaft + Injection leads to Snatch  :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :popcorn:

My previous main bike was an ST1300.  It would do it, but to a MUCH lesser extent.  There were threads on getting rid of the throttle snatch (my mate's one is sorted). 
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 10, 2019, 01:08:55 pm
It's done about 34, 000, only 3, 000 of which are mine.  Seller said it had recently been done, but I was planning on checking in the warmer weather, when I would do 'everything'.  Cold idle speed is slightly slower than when warm, plus as I mentioned, if you overclose the throttle, it stalls (doesn't do this when warm).


Set the idle about 1100 or so when warm...
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Pillow on December 10, 2019, 01:34:54 pm

Set the idle about 1100 or so when warm...

Yep, done already.  Still idles lower and splutters on light throttle when cold.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 10, 2019, 01:38:44 pm
Even without the flash from Shoodaben Engineering, it never did that.  Never did it with the flash either.  Smoothest idling machine I've ever owned.  Mine was an early model bought in Aug of 2007.

Brings tears to my eyes, it does, to see all those English/UK flags on our site.

There's another site you should look at as well.   http://gtr1400.co.uk (http://gtr1400.co.uk)  Bunch of fine people over there.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 10, 2019, 02:55:43 pm
gonna go out on the limb again, and suggest pulling that air filter out, for inspection and replacement if needed...

Search online for the HiFlo brand, it will save big $$ and works as good as OEM

(https://www.partsgiant.com/images/RHLZ253OW3YHHNOJ-product-primary.jpg)
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on December 10, 2019, 03:48:04 pm
Yep, done already.  Still idles lower and splutters on light throttle when cold.

That is not a good sign.  The C14 is notoriously good at idling and not acting up with throttle when cold.  My was fine for 8 years and then starting having issues- all due to valve lash.  I had never even TOUCHED the idle speed adjuster before then (didn't even know it was there).  Did he provide proof/maintenance records that the valve inspection was done?  Maybe a dealer that you can contact?  Might also want to run a few tanks of Techron additive through it just for giggles, but don't expect some miracle (unless the injectors are really fouled).  Clogged air filter could contribute, although that might show more on high rpm (like a clogged fuel filter would show on higher throttle and RPM).

I believe dying/sputtering and such on too much throttle (especially when cold, but otherwise to some extent, too) is primarily an fuel/air mix/combustion issue (too rich/lean, contaminated with exhaust, etc).  If your gas is good, and the injectors are clean, it is most likely the valves :(
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 10, 2019, 04:21:14 pm
OK, NOW WE ARE DOING "i THINK" stuff.. think... low speed cold idle is where the airflow is MOST criticle, to make a bike run.. not wide open.. a clogged filter will not idle, but will run at higher rpms, when warm.. once the engine warms, the air in the airbox is warmer, and will allow airflow thru the congealed goop, on a cold air filter.. once warmed, it softens, and melts a bit, and air can be supplied..

any bike can run well when it's pressed and at high rpm, not so much off idle, or cold.. and being fuel injected, and not having the same issues a "jetted carb has", air is the prime factor. Now, that said, if valves are "off", they also control flow into the cylinders, but really don't change the performance as much as the "available air just off idle", that a combo of tight valves, and a restricted filter do.

there is method to my comments, I have been doing this a while.... not trying to be "snippy", but the airfilter controls a lot more than most people realize on this bike. IMHO it's marginal for its longevity, and needs regimented, and regular attention to make the bike run right.

So Please, take this from someone who HAS done their own service, in timely manners, and has been inside of the "plastic wayyyy to many times to count".  Again, if you have not actually "done" the work, it's a bit hard to swallow advice on what may "seem" to be the issue... kinda like playing the blues, without paying the dues. :rotflmao:

Oh, and PLEASE, refrain from dumping chemicals into the fuel.. it NEVER helps diagnose, or correct an issue, it just masks underlying issues for a tank of fuel.. bump the cold speed idle up to 1100rpm, at startup, via the adjuster knob;  it will drop back once warm... Insure clean fresh fuel, and a clean air filter.. and run from there.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 10, 2019, 04:40:05 pm
Could it be the fuel filter in the tank?
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 10, 2019, 04:58:10 pm
Could it be the fuel filter in the tank?

not likely with the miles he has, and the fact it runs well when warm, and does not exhibit higher RPM stumble issues.. fuel filter really shows up when trying to maintain constant higher speeds, on longer runs, and is evident by variations in performance "when forced to flow more" than at idle..  The only thing I've found that is really clearly effecting idle speed vs off idle, especially cold, is air filter, and poor quality fuel. The filter had/has little to do with the quality of the fuel.

I did mine this summer, never had an issue, but just did it due to the time it spent idle, and differences in fuel from Va, to Ohio.

probably could have let it go till 60k, but as I was doing the test on new MRP flash, and going to the Nationals.. I did it pre-preemptively..and as I waned to be very precise in my testing, I wanted a perfectly clean system to evaluate the changes... I don't like doing 5 different things, and trying to figure later which really made the difference.. if ya get my drift;  so I won't be doing it for another 30k miles, or much more.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on December 10, 2019, 05:05:11 pm
low speed cold idle is where the airflow is MOST criticle, to make a bike run.. not wide open..

Agreed, although the OP indicated no problem with idle, just with low-throttle dying.

Quote
a clogged filter will not idle, but will run at higher rpms, when warm.. [...] any bike can run well when it's pressed and at high rpm,

I am not sure I completely agree with that (not that you would care if I do or not), based on how it was explained to me by my friend (a master mechanic).  He would agree that a very clogged air filter would affect idle and, to a lesser degree, low-throttle dying.  But as the RPM goes up, the amount of air needed goes up tremendously and the engine will get starved for air, greatly affecting performance.  That is what I meant when I said "although that might show more on high rpm."  A filter that is even 80% clogged should have enough air for idle and low-throttle take-off.  OP hasn't said how high throttle/high RPM performance is, but I suspect at a clog level enough to affect idle, it would destroy high performance, too.  This is not to say I don't think it would be a good idea to check/replace the air filter- it is an excellent troubleshooting step, although it isn't all that easy (at least it wasn't to me, lots of stuff to remove, and Canyons in the way too; hell of a lot easier than a valve lash inspection, though).

Quote
there is method to my comments, I have been doing this a while.... not trying to be "snippy"

Oh come on, you can't help but be "snippy"!  At least us old-timers know it is your nature.  :)
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 10, 2019, 05:26:26 pm
no problem Max, you can come over and work on my bike anytime, I'll just stand behind you with a cane, and correct any errors during a process... :rotflmao: :chugbeer: :chugbeer:

(https://coconuts.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/000_M42NO.jpg)

 :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :stirpot: :rotflmao: :hail:
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on December 10, 2019, 05:50:09 pm
no problem Max, you can come over and work on my bike anytime, I'll just stand behind you with a cane, and correct any errors during a process...

Ug, I would die from blood loss in no time!
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: gPink on December 10, 2019, 06:28:34 pm
no problem Max, you can come over and work on my bike anytime, I'll just stand behind you with a cane, and correct any errors during a process... :rotflmao: :chugbeer: :chugbeer:

 :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :stirpot: :rotflmao: :hail:


https://youtu.be/BtAyDfMIB1w
Title: herky jerky throttle
Post by: Riverszzr on December 10, 2019, 07:12:52 pm
Man, couldn't anyone think up a better thread topic title than nasty snatch........

Nobody likes nasty snatch, nobody....

Many a gsxr have this issue when the TPS sensor is adjusted too high or too low......... But who am I fooling, far too many don't think you ever need to adjust the TPS or any of the other sensors......
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: strum on December 10, 2019, 07:36:51 pm
Im gonna have to go with MOB on this one .  Its worth a look to check out the air filter.  At least it'll eliminate one thing.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on December 10, 2019, 07:47:28 pm
Im gonna have to go with MOB on this one.  Its worth a look to check out the air filter.  At least it'll eliminate one thing.

I am pretty sure probably all of us agree that checking the air filter is a good troubleshooting step.  Especially true when there is any type of performance issue and the bike was purchased used with perhaps an unknown or uncertain regimen of maintenance.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Freddy on December 11, 2019, 05:37:21 am
MOB said:bump the cold speed idle up to 1100rpm, at startup, via the adjuster knob;  it will drop back once warm..     

Cold idle speed is factory set by the adjustment on the left side of the throttle body and controlled by the ECU via the secondary throttle shaft as I remember (I haven't had the plastic off one recently) and not to be played with. The adjuster knob you refer to is for warm idle. 
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 11, 2019, 09:45:57 am
MOB said:bump the cold speed idle up to 1100rpm, at startup, via the adjuster knob;  it will drop back once warm..     

Cold idle speed is factory set by the adjustment on the left side of the throttle body and controlled by the ECU via the secondary throttle shaft as I remember (I haven't had the plastic off one recently) and not to be played with. The adjuster knob you refer to is for warm idle.

You are correct, I was having a brain fart when I made that comment... My apologies;
But, if continued "cold start" issues are a problem, and are not remedied by all the other options (i.e. air filter, valve adjust, no leaks, etc,) and the throttle body "bypass"/synch screws were never messed with, a minor adjustment to that "stop screw" for cold idle shaft would do no harm... the one in the picture below..  It could be tricky and time consuming, as it has to be done "cold engine", upon cold start, and the throttle cannot be touched as that would throw off the way the sensors read each time.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Freddy on December 11, 2019, 04:02:01 pm
 :goodpost:   :chugbeer:
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Pillow on December 12, 2019, 03:13:00 pm
You are correct, I was having a brain fart when I made that comment... My apologies;
But, if continued "cold start" issues are a problem, and are not remedied by all the other options (i.e. air filter, valve adjust, no leaks, etc,) and the throttle body "bypass"/synch screws were never messed with, a minor adjustment to that "stop screw" for cold idle shaft would do no harm... the one in the picture below..  It could be tricky and time consuming, as it has to be done "cold engine", upon cold start, and the throttle cannot be touched as that would throw off the way the sensors read each time.

That screw doesn't touch the linkage when cold.  Might that indicate it being out of adjustment?  What engine speed would you set it to when cold?
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Freddy on December 12, 2019, 03:24:35 pm
What rpm does it show at startup?
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 12, 2019, 03:26:49 pm
ahhhhh... revelations....

that screw should rest on the link, before turning the ignition on, and you can twist the throttle one of 2 times, and let it slam home, prior to turning the ignition on.. when you turn it "on", you might hear a "clack", that is the throttle plates closing fully..when COLD...(with the ignition key turned "on") before touching throttle, and before ever starting, check again in that manner, and if it does "not" touch, then adjust that screw, again I stress cold, and before ever starting the bike, until it touches when the ignition is on... and then add about 1/8 to 1/4 turn to the screw... then proceed to start and test.. the idle should fall back off as it runs and warms (withing about 1 minute max elapsed time) and then rely on the "warm' bike adjustment via the adjuster knob.. again, it might take a couple tries, but everything must begin from "cold" condition.

as for "cold start idle rpm", I can't give a specific figure, non exists.. but I can say my '08 when cold started, hovers about 1200-1400+rpm, and drops back rapidly on the first "blip" of the wrist, about 40 seconds later..   after a full minute or more, you are on the "manual knob" adjuster stop, as the throttle control closes the butterfly's shaft electrically, via the throttle controller system.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Pillow on December 12, 2019, 03:30:41 pm
Ah, indeed.  I think the vital info may be here.  Just out of interest, is the adjustment referred to in the workshop manual anywhere?  I ask, because I did look through it to find out any fast idle info and couldn't find it.

Idle is about 1000 when cold and a couple hundred more warm.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Freddy on December 12, 2019, 03:39:18 pm
Like MOB's bike, my 09 when cold is about 1400 cold then drops back to about 1100 warm (adjusted).
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 12, 2019, 03:47:58 pm
Like MOB's bike, my 09 when cold is about 1400 cold then drops back to about 1100 warm (adjusted).

perfect..

Ah, indeed.  I think the vital info may be here.  Just out of interest, is the adjustment referred to in the workshop manual anywhere?  I ask, because I did look through it to find out any fast idle info and couldn't find it.

Idle is about 1000 when cold and a couple hundred more warm.

no you won't find this in any manual, just from people who do this stuff, and share... cold start idle is as noted by myself and also Freddy, and will drop off when warm.. 1000 rpm is very low for cold start... and when it warms, the rise dictates a mal adjustment on Cold Start adjuster screw... it should end up around 1100 +/- 50 rpm, when warmed...
and, to reiterate, you will not be able to adjust this when you start the bike, as the time for adjustment is just moments.. so giving an "rpm" setting, isn't gonna happen, or be reliable to the process.. follow the 1/8 to 1/4 turn thing I spoke of.. you should find happy things.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on December 12, 2019, 05:23:32 pm
Idle is about 1000 when cold and a couple hundred more warm.

1000 on a truly cold engine?  I am surprised it will run at all that low without immediately cutting off/dying!  Cold, mine probably is close to 1500 or something, maybe higher, then gradually lowers until it hits the manual adjustment (which I set to about 1100) a few minutes later.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Pillow on December 12, 2019, 10:16:42 pm
Well lads, I'll do it Sunday, try it Monday and report how I get on. 
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Pillow on December 15, 2019, 04:27:16 am
Well... it didn't go too well.  Made some adjustments, which helped with the cold start idle speed. 

Whilst I was out, I decided to see if I have the secondary butterflies.  Turns out I don't.  Also, I can't seem to find them either on eBay or on the parts catalogue (unless I buy the whole throttle body).

Does anyone know of a workaround?  Someone who can supply just the flaps maybe???
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on December 15, 2019, 05:44:51 am
I decided to see if I have the secondary butterflies.  Turns out I don't.


That would explain how the flash probably made no difference and didn't help with snatchiness (since the ECU can't control airflow without the secondaries).

Quote
Also, I can't seem to find them either on eBay or on the parts catalogue (unless I buy the whole throttle body).  Does anyone know of a workaround?  Someone who can supply just the flaps maybe???


Have no idea how you are going to get your hands on some, outside of waiting for a wrecked/scrapped bike to be parted out (in which case you will still at the mercy of how that seller will or won't sell individual parts).  Removing the secondaries is typically no longer done, because reflashing works so much better; so finding just the flaps is going to be very difficult (and I don't think any other bike in the world uses the same ones).

If it were me, I would at least start by posting you need them on this and the other two boards.

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?board=17.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?board=17.0)
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 15, 2019, 07:14:42 am
Well... it didn't go too well.  Made some adjustments, which helped with the cold start idle speed. 

Whilst I was out, I decided to see if I have the secondary butterflies.  Turns out I don't.  Also, I can't seem to find them either on eBay or on the parts catalogue (unless I buy the whole throttle body).

Does anyone know of a workaround?  Someone who can supply just the flaps maybe???


You might try posting that request in the Wanted board.  Ah, I see you did.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 15, 2019, 01:54:06 pm
Well... it didn't go too well.  Made some adjustments, which helped with the cold start idle speed. 

Whilst I was out, I decided to see if I have the secondary butterflies.  Turns out I don't.  Also, I can't seem to find them either on eBay or on the parts catalogue (unless I buy the whole throttle body).

Does anyone know of a workaround?  Someone who can supply just the flaps maybe???

HERE... GRAB THEM FAST.....

https://www.ebay.com/i/272353276870?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=272353276870&targetid=475515225101&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9015276&poi=&campaignid=6469981122&mkgroupid=79220336802&rlsatarget=pla-475515225101&abcId=1141176&merchantid=131375965&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkY-l-sO45gIVAdbACh2STwDjEAQYByABEgKfs_D_BwE (https://www.ebay.com/i/272353276870?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=272353276870&targetid=475515225101&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9015276&poi=&campaignid=6469981122&mkgroupid=79220336802&rlsatarget=pla-475515225101&abcId=1141176&merchantid=131375965&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkY-l-sO45gIVAdbACh2STwDjEAQYByABEgKfs_D_BwE)
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on December 15, 2019, 04:05:19 pm
HERE... GRAB THEM FAST.....

Good find.  Seller even shows pictures of top and bottom (although he uses the word "carburetors", LOL).  Has been a couple of hours and they are still not sold yet.  For $40, that is a steal.  Even if Kawasaki sold the plates separately, they would cost way more than that.  MOB- you must have good Ebay Karma.  I have a friend like that- seems to magically find whatever he wants whenever he wants.  Me, not so much.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Boomer on December 16, 2019, 03:58:46 am
Only problem is Pillow is in the UK, so shipping from the US will be stupidly expensive.
There are plenty of throttle bodies available in the UK on ebay.co.uk but prices are £150 upwards.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on December 17, 2019, 04:59:01 pm
It's still available...

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: Pillow on February 17, 2020, 03:26:50 pm
First- a big shout out to Lather for sending me his spare secondaries.  Thank you so much, I really appreciate it.

Went in pretty uneventfully.  I noticed it pulls much easier, more keen to accelerate.  Very clean through the revs.  It's still a bit snatchy and kind of kicks as I start to open off of idle sometimes.  I did notice one of the inlet rubbers was kinda crumpled, but it doesn't seem to be leaking air.

I've run out of time for this issue for now, but I'll investigate in spring, when I do a full service.

Thanks to all for your advice.
Title: Re: Nasty Snatch
Post by: maxtog on February 17, 2020, 03:31:24 pm
Went in pretty uneventfully.  I noticed it pulls much easier, more keen to accelerate.  Very clean through the revs. 

:)