Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: gpineau on January 05, 2020, 05:29:29 pm

Title: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 05, 2020, 05:29:29 pm
This was supposed to be a bike for my wife's trike but things changed.

Its taken a while to finally get this to the point that it ready to tune. I have had so many interruptions and family emergencies that took priority away from this project. I had this built and running for quite a while but am just in the last month giving it the attention that it needs to move toward a bike I can actually ride.
The hardware is complete and working.

Now time for tuning.  One  of the problems I have with tuning is that there is not enough vacuum variations between full Idle and wide open throttle. So I need to generate a new  AFR and VE tables that are scaled to match the MAP in the motor.

 I have finished tuning the idle tables and it seems to like the settings at 1000 RPM. I will need to re-tune idle after I have made the new tables.  Lot of work to be done on other throttle/load conditions. Wish i had a dyno in the garage cause I am not going riding in the middle of winter.

Here are some clips of it's progress.  https://youtu.be/aClwRT8BqTw
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: Boomer on January 06, 2020, 03:48:13 am
The only one I know of that has EFI-ed the C10 is Rev Ryder.
He EFI-ed his due to the fitment of a Turbo.
Chuck is I believe still recovering from illness but seems to be active on the COG forum.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: sport rider on January 06, 2020, 01:15:48 pm
interesting!  will order 2 kits from you when you get it done.  :D
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 06, 2020, 03:21:54 pm
Sport Rider,  I don't have a kit per say. I have lists, drawings, and documentation about how I did it. I tried to keep it simple and don't do anything exotic that any one else would struggle with. I think the biggest hurdle in the whole project was fabricating a crank position sensor.  Everything else can either be purchased or easily fabricated by "most" weekend mechanics.

I've seen what you can do on your cafe racer and can say you wont have any problems replicating what I have done.

Getting the mechanics and electrical is done and behind me. Now comes the tuning part which I am not an expert. I have done one other project like this but the hardware design was much different.

I will show updates when it is working well enough and the weather is warm enough to go riding.
This video shows a bit of the good, the bad....PM me if you want to see the Ugly.

https://youtu.be/R6w4ER7ydb4
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: fred-houston on January 07, 2020, 06:02:48 pm
The only one I know of that has EFI-ed the C10 is Rev Ryder.
He EFI-ed his due to the fitment of a Turbo.
Chuck is I believe still recovering from illness but seems to be active on the COG forum.

He is not the only one.  Mine is naturally aspirated, no turbo.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 10, 2020, 12:57:14 pm
I think B.D.F. (Jim) has also converted a C10 to EFI. I got a lot of good advice from him when I started the EFI project last year on my Honda.

Meanwhile I am tossing my cheap Ebay Wide band controller and replacing it with one that I can trust. The one I have installed will read a certain AFR but lie to the ECU so that the ecu thinks the bike is running lean. I have verified this by scoping the output of the Wide band controller.  So I need to make a new harness for the new controller.

Also got the Cafe' Racer seat from China yesterday. It looks sweet when sitting on the bike by itself but looks  NOT sweet when you add the huge gas tank.  Not sure I'm going to be able to use it.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: sport rider on January 10, 2020, 02:03:23 pm
agree on both.  looks sweet.  not so sweet.  oh well...it was an interesting try.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 15, 2020, 07:23:04 pm
Playing with the used side panels.  I think it looks good with them. I also think I will paint the tank again to match the panels.

If it't not too cold tomorrow I am going to  take it for a test ride. See if I can make it a few miles without a catastrophe. Hope I don't have to push it home. 

https://youtu.be/0qlYigRRfeM
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 15, 2020, 07:27:33 pm
so, is this bike now fuel injected?
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 15, 2020, 07:35:56 pm
yes
But it has never been outside the garage since I brought it home.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 15, 2020, 07:50:23 pm
yes
But it has never been outside the garage since I brought it home.
ok....
what ever.
I'm nutz. don't get it.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 15, 2020, 07:52:43 pm
Looks stock, don't it?   But it ain't. When I am finished I will do a revealing walk around.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 15, 2020, 08:04:48 pm
Looks stock, don't it?   But it ain't. When I am finished I will do a revealing walk around.

reveal your throttle body.
because I don't buy it.

 :loco: :loco: :loco: :loco:

I'm saying, reallly, this vid is not really telling me you have fuel injection...
https://youtu.be/aClwRT8BqTw


ok
you win.
somehow the throttle position sensor was not showing any movement on you computer.
If you plan to ride, it's a heavy bike to push home... might want to decommission the air cut diaphragm valves on carb 1 & 4 also... as they are not functional anymore in this application.
have fun, ride safe,
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 15, 2020, 08:05:54 pm
interesting!  will order 2 kits from you when you get it done.  :D

 hide your wallet...
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 16, 2020, 08:36:23 am
please, no need to... I really have to be honest, and as a longtime tech savvy person, really dislike fake crap. Sorry.
reveal your throttle body.
because I don't buy it.
I'm saying, really, this vid is not really telling me you have fuel injection... do you really take us all for fools?
 
Seriously, no. Not everyone is a fool. Just you!

You so often scrutinize others work. You disparage me again by calling me a fake. You imply that I am trying to fool everyone.

For someone like yourself, “a long time tech savvy person” I would have though you figured it out by now but I’m beginning to think you are the biggest fool here. 
You like to capture images, blow them up and point out “important” details that support your belief.

But for someone that pays such attention to details I am shocked that you have overlooked so many blaring clues in plain sight!

In the image you captured you are pointing right at the throttle bodies and the throttle position sensor.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: kzz1king on January 16, 2020, 09:29:01 am
I am guessing the injectors are in the carb throats? Using carbs to control air flow? Just a guess I guess.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 16, 2020, 09:47:16 am
kzz1king, Ding ding ding!. Good deduction and observation!

MOB,  How lame can you get....You asked me to show you the throttle bodies while you were pointing right at them.

Some other things you may have missed.

Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 16, 2020, 10:43:11 am
man of blues, I have put way too much into this project for you to Pis* all over it.



https://youtu.be/Xuqw9u9Zw_A
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 16, 2020, 03:37:43 pm
man of blues,

And I see now that you have gone back and removed all the disparaging remarks you made to me. Covering your tracks? 

You called me "fake" and implied that I was being dishonest by trying to "fool all of us."

Your not only a troll, you're a dishonest sneaky troll.

So now no one can understand why I am so pis*sed off.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: T Cro ® on January 16, 2020, 04:16:56 pm
man of blues,

And I see now that you have gone back and removed all the disparaging remarks you made to me. Covering your tracks? 

You called me "fake" and implied that I was being dishonest by trying to "fool all of us."

Your not only a troll, you're a dishonest sneaky troll.

So now no one can understand why I am so pis*sed off.

No I saw it, just didn't have the time to react... I'll be quite honest if this pattern continues I will take corrective action...
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 16, 2020, 06:25:39 pm
No I saw it, just didn't have the time to react... I'll be quite honest if this pattern continues I will take corrective action...

Understood Tony.
And, I will admit to removing the disparaging remarks, (it is clearly evident I did so, by the edit time and date stamp on my post, and by the quoted portion he placed.. no mystery. No deception implicated.. I simply removed it.), because I felt the need to, based on the lack of info given prior. I based my comment on what I saw. The hidden aspects of his assembly, were not revealed, until I commented. SO, I removed the insulting sounding remarks. I did see the throttle position sensor, but in his vid, it was not showing any input on his computer. I therefore committed to asking about throttle body. The injectors, and the location of same, were never revealed ever prior, and un seen in any prior revelations.

I apologize for jumping at conclusions, but only for that, and my personal comments.
other than that, I really have no desire to further brow beat the man. I'm sorry.

there will be no further interaction from me in response to anything the O/P posts on this subject.. I wish him best of luck.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: Rick Hall on January 16, 2020, 09:01:46 pm
No I saw it, just didn't have the time to react... I'll be quite honest if this pattern continues we will take corrective action...

Corrected it for you.

Rick
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 17, 2020, 04:02:50 am
To my fellow forum members,
I joined this forum shortly after purchasing my first C10. I am now on my third.  I joined because I was enthusiastic about my new toy and had a list of questions. Along with my question I wished to share my experiences. Both my successes and failures, new things I learned and interesting discoveries. I have a keen interest in experimenting with my motorcycles. Doing things that challenge me and keep life interesting.  I have tried to openly share those experiences here with everyone. But when I do, I am often criticized, disparaged, demeaned, and called dishonest. It Is very disheartening to want to share, be accepted but then be rejected.

I had planned to publish of all the details of my latest experiment but only after I had worked out all the kinks and could call it successful.  Maybe I was premature in showing my progress before it was completely ready, but the response I received was shocking and demotivating. So, I find no joy in sharing here anymore.   Anyone interested in the experience and how I got this far can get some of the information from this document.
http://gpineau.com/Public_files/ (http://gpineau.com/Public_files/)
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: Stasch on January 17, 2020, 06:37:06 am
As an FYI, the link won't open as posted, as the spaces in the file name got converted to 'A20' in the link.

I was able to get to it by shortening your link to: http://gpineau.com/Public_files/ (http://gpineau.com/Public_files/) and opening the file from the 'read only' ftp equivalent link found there.

I saw all the posts and have just read your DOCX file.  I really wish you could find a way to continue to post your progress and not let what happened keep you away.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: T Cro ® on January 17, 2020, 06:44:30 am
I really wish you could find a way to continue to post your progress and not let what happened keep you away.

I'll 2nd that wish, even though I don't ride anymore I do enjoy reading the "I'm gonna make it work" attitude...
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: sport rider on January 17, 2020, 01:08:33 pm
I'm still following....
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 17, 2020, 04:10:41 pm
I know I said I didn't want to post here anymore but I cant contain it.

So I was setting in the garage, motor running, pointed toward the street and scared Shi-t-less.  Pondering should I chance it or not? This is a big bike and I don't want to push it home.  I gave it a little throttle and released the clutch and I am down the driveway and heading down the block toward the corner. Christ ! I have never even tested the brakes on this thing, hoping it will stop.  From the stop sign I turn left and gave it more gas and away it went with me holding on. This is the most thrilled I have been since I can't remember.  It FRIGGING_SCREAMS ! I was at the end of the block before I could get to second gear. I spent the next ten minutes tooling around the neighborhood milking the throttle, goosing it then engine braking.  At times at WOT it would begin to sputter but the ECU would soon make the correction. I never got past 3rd gear.  Then it begins to snow, sleet... So I pulled into the garage and killed it. Took a deep breath and tried to wipe the smile off my face but I am still grinning.

 It has be a long road to get to this point and I and so thankful for the support and advice I have been getting in both public and in private conversations. Far from done but I am so encouraged right now.
Compared to my other C10, I can tell that this one will smoke it, hands down.  I need to find my go-pro and mount it on a helmet. I cant wait till tomorrow. 
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: tweeter55 on January 17, 2020, 04:20:45 pm
That is AWESOME results!!!
Please, please, please keep posting here.
I'm with T Cro. Enjoying the read & results.
Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on January 18, 2020, 07:16:34 am
That's great news!!
   I've been following since the beginning.
   I'll start with; I admit that most of the electrical/programming is way over my head.
   But' I've enjoyed watching as you worked your way around all...
    Your solutions to problems are different, and out of the box.
          Keep up the good work.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Please be careful out there.
      There are more things (than braking problems) to be concerned with on the road.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 18, 2020, 07:40:31 pm
Ted,
I bet you could to this. I have already made all the silly mistakes and found all the ways not to do it. Just do what I did and it will work.

 I was a computer hardware designer and a embedded  firmware engineer in a previous life. So the electrical and hardware assembly was not that hard for me.

 It was working out the mechanical and physical aspects that took the most time. It is the tuning that frightens me the most. Manly because I have no experience in that aspect of EFI.
 I purchased the pro version of Tuner studio which is a terrific help in getting things right under all the other conditions. All you need is to set up the AFR tables, preliminary VE table and the spark advance table. The base tune is provided with the ECU firmware so you don't have to start from scratch. The base tune is good enough to get it started.

Getting it started, warmed up and idle is half the battle. After that the tuner studio has a function that will check the settings against what you want the final AFR to be and make adjustment to the VE table to bring the AFR inline with whats in the table. There is a free version that takes a lot of measurements and makes recommendations then you make the changes manually. But in my opinion the paid auto-tune version is worth the price.

Yesterday I had tuned around idle and low RPM with no load.  The rest of the VE table was just based off default "base tune". When I left the garage it performed very well under the conditions I had tuned for but as I put it under different loading conditions I could feel it hesitate briefly then the auto tune would start to work out and correct the setting and shortly it was pulling strong.  The longer you drive it around with Auto tune the better it gets and eventually it is tuned for all speed and load conditions.   
here s a great video that will give you an idea of how helpful tuner studio is.

As for the firmware in the ECU...I gave up on that in the middle of my first project. The guys at Speeduino were so far ahead it didn't make sense to roll my own. All you need is a PC and the development tools and a USB port. They make it simple to download the firmware to the ECU.  And the guys at the Speeduino forum are so very friendly and helpful. When you get stumped they can walk you through getting un-stumped.

And since I have already done it I am sure you can do it too. I bet there are hundreds of old Connies sitting in garages and sheds that have not been started in years. Good candidates for a interesting and fun project.
 
Here is the document that names the different steps I took that I think anyone can follow. Anyone with basic mechanical/electrical skills will not have too much difficulty in replicating what I have done.

http://gpineau.com/Public_files/ (http://gpineau.com/Public_files/)

https://youtu.be/x4RBi8Xf92Y (https://youtu.be/x4RBi8Xf92Y)

Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: sport rider on January 21, 2020, 08:13:18 am
Very nice!  I can relate to the enthusiasm.   :thumbs:
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 21, 2020, 09:18:30 am
It's been cold the past few days so I took the time to look up the parts I had purchased to get an idea of all I have spent.
It is not exactly cheap but my expenditures were spread out over the past year so it really did not feel that expensive a little each month.
I actually had a lot more invested in the development tools and experiments that did not yield fruit. But to replicate it I think I can do it cheaper a second time.
If I had been a more frugal ebay shopper I could have done better.   

Most of the expense was in the ECU and the wide band controller, with the rest being $5 here, $10 there, it all adds up.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 23, 2020, 08:40:45 am
Here are most of the steps I went through starting in August.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9ZAieLe6zon1TuzB_mU4w5h5qqh5WuXQ (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9ZAieLe6zon1TuzB_mU4w5h5qqh5WuXQ)

I didn't video the mods I made to the gas tank.  But it is necessary to drill out the vent pipe that exits just under the gas cap. The gas cap will need to be removed to get access the the vent. I drill strait down and at an angle toward the front of the tank. This will allow gas returned from the fuel pressure regulator to circulate through the tank.  Also I drilled a 2mm hole on the opposite side to allow pressure build-up to escape the tank.  Sorry no video or photos.

And this is worth watching. But you must turn on the sound.  https://www.facebook.com/202314740312386/videos/572135050032021/ (https://www.facebook.com/202314740312386/videos/572135050032021/)
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 24, 2020, 04:40:54 pm
Third time out with tuner studio in auto tune. Each time it gets better.  When ever if hits a bad spot on the throttle I just hold it there for a few seconds and soon it is pulling strong again. Tuner studio is worth every penny.   Trying to ride at all different speeds in all gears and under differing loads. Cant do all that in my neighborhood.  Not much left to do since it is running well. Still a little stubborn when starting but it will start after a few seconds of cranking.

Each time I go for a ride it gets better than the last time. Its about time I headed out on the highway. But first I need to tighten down the rear view mirrors. And  calibrate the speedometer (it seems to be off by about a third). some weird formula, =1000/ (wheel circumference in meters/2) or something like that. Also need to adjust the camera so it is looking at something besides the front tire.
 https://youtu.be/NfqR8AeMjg4
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on January 25, 2020, 09:48:57 am
Seems that your making great progress.

I know your not done, but have questions.

1) If you sharply twist the throttle how sharp is the response?
      MY stock C-10 is not as sharp as my C-14. Think this is partially due to be carbureted.
      Wondering if EFI will make the initial response sharper.
2) Does your controls monitor and adjust for changes in altitude or barometric pressure?
      Mixture will have to change as air density changes.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 25, 2020, 07:06:55 pm
There is a programmable throttle enrichment value. It is a curve that adds more fuel based on the rate of change of the throttle position. This is measured in %/second, with higher values representing faster twists of the throttle and values in the range 50%/s to 1000%/s are normal.
Eg:
100%/s = pressing the throttle from 0% to 100% in 1 second
1000%/s = pressing the throttle from 0% to 100% in 0.1s

TPSdot forms the X axis of the acceleration curve, with the Y axis value representing the % increase in fuel.
The tuning software allows you to adjust the different points on the curve to suit your engine.  In the tool shown in the photo the software allows you to pick points on the curve and move them higher or lower depending on how you want acceleration enrichment to behave.

I am using the default on mine and it seem to e very responsive. I have not played with the curve yet, so perhaps I can make it even more responsive.

At the moment the software only takes a barometer reading at key on. It then uses the map pressure to determine the engine load.  Since it only has one map sensor it cannot make barometer measurements while the engine is running. It only takes the measurement once per key cycle. This is adequate if you plan to drive across states like Kansas or Nebraska. But if your are going to cross the Rockies you probably need to stop every once and a while and cycle the power.  There are plans for a second barometer sensor but it has not been implemented yet.

PS. took my bike out on a tuning ride again today and it ran great for a while the it got temperamental.  slow to get up to speed and bogged down on WOT. I kept driving around hoping that auto-tune would work it out but it just kept getting worse.  I limped home and after I parked it noticed the AFR was showing it running very lean.  Then I noticed the fuel pressure showed about half of what it normally reads. Then I realized it was running on an empty tank! All the engine was getting was air mixed with what ever fuel was splashing around in the tank.  So now that it has a full tank and plenty of pressure it is running too rich. I need to re-tune to un-do what auto-tune did to correct for running out of gas.  So today was a washout. But tomorrow is going to be a warm 57 degrees.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on January 26, 2020, 08:56:21 am
Ok, thanks for the information.
Seems your getting there.....

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 26, 2020, 03:02:26 pm
Connie_rider,

Took it out again today. Longest ride so far. You asked is the throttle responsive when twisted hard.  Rolling at about 20 MPH I got the front wheel off the ground by goosing the throttle. I am very happy with the way this has turned out. I managed to un-do the bad tuning I did yesterday while running on an empty tank.  Acceleration it good in all gears. First time ever got int 5th and 6th gears. I still have trouble with cold starts and 1st gear at low speeds but everything else looks good to me.  looks like my cheap aftermarket speeduino died just as I arrived home. I need to go check on that.

Made a 20 minute video. it is uploading now. youtube says it will be an hour before it is processed. https://youtu.be/M8fvjvZv_z4
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on January 26, 2020, 04:27:27 pm
Yahoo. More progress..
I like your music, but couldn't hear the motor. Have you done any hard accells thru a few gears?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 26, 2020, 05:43:01 pm
Yahoo. More progress..
I like your music, but couldn't hear the motor. Have you done any hard accells thru a few gears?

Ride safe, Ted
Hard excel in 1,2,3rd. By then I am over the speed limit and shut it down. Ill try that out on the back rode and let you know.   As for the music, you cant hear the motor real well anyway because of the wind noise on the camera. I am thinking of putting another recorder inside my helmet and overdub the audio when i am done.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: sport rider on January 27, 2020, 08:20:47 am
I'm really wanting this for my cafe project.   :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 27, 2020, 11:32:34 am
I'm really wanting this for my cafe project.   :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

The only things unique about my implementation is the crankshaft sprocket and the position sensor. Everything else you can get from several sources. Mostly eBay, Craig's list, and amazon.

If you decide to go down the path I can share with you where I got everything and give you the crankshaft sensor and sprocket at my cost.
I will also share my "tune" settings with you but they probably won't be optimum for you since I live at 5000 feet and I would bet the air is denser where you live. But it will be enough to get started and if you use the auto tune feature of tuner studio it should be an easy chore to get it the way you like it.

It is a tedious project full of opportunities to mess up. Your vocabulary of 4 letter words will increase exponentially.  But it was a fun project and I feel a sense of accomplishment. 

It's road worthy now and for a while I will just be doing tweaks to the tuning. Then what? It's not awesome but I am proud of it.  I'm not sure I will keep it. I have short legs and I find this and my other Connie difficult to ride.  I have  lowering links for my other Connie and i've got  my Yamaha V-Star which I love..  I suspect this will be parked most of the time. 
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 28, 2020, 06:34:34 pm
Connie_Rider.

I just saw that a second barometer feature has been added to the software. If you are going to ride around locally you dont need it but, If you want to cross several states or climb mountains you can add a second barometer sensor to your bike and it operates like this.

The logic is (in this order):
If external baro sensor is enabled, use it (And update approx. every 1 second)
If external baro is disabled, make a reading on startup and check whether it’s within sane limits. If it is, this value is saved in EEPROM and used until the system is switched off
If the startup reading was outside of the valid range (Can occur if the engine is already running for example), then check the last baro value that was saved in EEPROM.
Finally if that value in EEPROM was outside the valid range, default to 100kPa (sea level).
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on January 29, 2020, 08:46:56 am
Ok, thanx.
I'm not going to install one of these.
I ride the C-14 most of the time and the C-10 is a spare/loaner.
  & I'm happy e'nuff with the carbs..
And admittedly; The electrical end is over my head..

I'm just interested in your project...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on January 30, 2020, 02:57:59 pm
I was having a problem where the fuel injected into the carb would strike the back of the throttle plate and some would splash back and pool in the seam between the carb and the rubber boot to the air-box. Some of it was finding a way to drip out about 1 drop every 10 seconds.  I fitted the back of the carb with a mesh screen that atomizes the spray from the injector and there is no longer any splash-back.

The screen is awesome.  Took some videos with and without the screen and a slow motion with screen. Without the screen the injector is like a squirt gun. With the screen it looks like an air-freshener  aerosol spray.

No kidding with the screen inside the air-box boot, the bike was sucking in that vapor and actually trying to start  (no carb/throttle body) just 5 inches of air space.

https://youtu.be/2TxDRWqNi-k
Title: PAINT PROBLEMS
Post by: gpineau on February 12, 2020, 11:44:42 am
First time using single step paint.
This is Starfire Acrylic Enamel Auto Paint - Merlot Metallic.
mixed 4-1 reducer.  Looks shiny from a distance but not "wet" looking. Up close looks very rough.
I've read that your not supposed to wet sand Acrylic paint  but it looks terrible. like this.
Anyone with experience with single step acrylic enamel? What must I do to get a glossy finish?
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on February 12, 2020, 11:46:44 am
On a slightly better note.
I picked up my seat today. I am very pleased. Much better that what I had glued together.  He added more padding and smoothed out what the previous owner had done.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: sport rider on February 13, 2020, 09:15:52 am
looks pretty good!
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on February 14, 2020, 03:37:15 pm
lot better second try. Used a slower reducer and less air pressure.  But I am done with single step paint. It's much more problemetic than base/clear. And with clear coat its easier to fix your mistakes.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on February 16, 2020, 12:55:09 pm
Not so cold today so I got a chance to work in the garage. Finished painting, Welded up an extension and added a small seat. Will never use the extra seat but it makes it look more balanced.

The tune is all messed up since I added the mesh screen in the carb throat. I need to go on another tuning ride when the weather warms  up.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: Hooligan on February 16, 2020, 09:46:50 pm
This bike looks good, great job!! :chugbeer: :chugbeer:
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on February 17, 2020, 06:51:52 am
Looks like your getting there.
Keep up the good work.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: sport rider on February 17, 2020, 09:09:11 am
Looking good!!!!!
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gPink on February 17, 2020, 04:20:50 pm
Not so cold today so I got a chance to work in the garage. Finished painting, Welded up an extension and added a small seat. Will never use the extra seat but it makes it look more balanced.

The tune is all messed up since I added the mesh screen in the carb throat. I need to go on another tuning ride when the weather warms  up.

What's with the mesh screen in the carbs?
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on February 17, 2020, 05:55:00 pm
What's with the mesh screen in the carbs?
Well I detected a leak a week ago. Not a big one, just a drop every 10 seconds or so.

It turns out the fuel coming from the injectors was not atomized like you would think. It actually looks like a group of squirt guns aiming at the throttle plate. Well at idle the throttle plate is nearly closed so those streams of liquid were splashing back and collecting in the seam of the air-box boot and eventually dripping.  The screen mesh breaks the streams into a mist that does not splash back and stays inside the throttle body.
You cans see the difference in the video I posted. In the first part of the video you can see the output of the injectors in a stream of liquid. In the next part of the video  you can see the difference the screen mesh makes to the the fuel spray. The last part of the video is in slow motion and you can see the screen breaks the fuel into a mist.
https://youtu.be/2TxDRWqNi-k


The screens change the volumetric efficiency of the cylinder slightly. So I have to make minor adjustment to the VE table to make up for the change in air flow. 
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gPink on February 18, 2020, 04:17:58 pm
ok, thanks
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on February 19, 2020, 07:35:24 am
I went back to reply #44 and looked at your photo of the screen mesh installed in the carbs.
One concern.
Is there any chance of the screen mesh moving and holding a throttle slide open?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on February 19, 2020, 09:28:17 am
I went back to reply #44 and looked at your photo of the screen mesh installed in the carbs.
One concern.
Is there any chance of the screen mesh moving and holding a throttle slide open?

Ride safe, Ted
Actually Ted, it is not possible.
The outer ring of the screen mesh is just the right size to be press fitted into the opening of the carb (46mm) and the carb opening is larger than the throat of the carb (32mm).  The screen will not fit into the throat more than 3 quarter of an inch where it begins to taper down to the throttle plate. And at that it is still a good inch away from the throttle plate. 
Thanks for paying such close attention to the details of my work.
Once I press it into place I run a thin high temp RTV around the circumference to insure it does not move.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on February 19, 2020, 09:55:19 am
Ok, seems fine.
Suggest removing/inspecting them after a time as wires could weaken/break from repeated pulsation flexing.


Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on February 23, 2020, 01:55:47 pm
Lowered my C10 !!!   I may actually keep this bike.

I have been procrastinating about this because I thought it was going to be very difficult. In fact it took less that two hours.
I bought this lowering second hand rocker made by Norm, it is a 2"version.
worked like a charm. I got 1.25 inches lower.  Now I can set flat foot on hold it upright.   
Seems closer to the ground but still have ample clearance. I'm not going to be going around corners knee down. I need to go for a few drives to see how it handles.

 https://youtu.be/oHRdTUlVB6Y
 
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on February 23, 2020, 07:11:51 pm
Found the windscreen hiding in the garage. Cleaned it an put it on just for looks. What's a cafe racer without a cafe racer windscreen?
Wish it would warm up I want to ride.

Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: sport rider on February 24, 2020, 08:51:54 am
looks good.  I've been keeping mine naked so far, but have thought of this too...
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on February 24, 2020, 10:25:28 am
looks good.  I've been keeping mine naked so far, but have thought of this too...
The wind screen came with the bike so I cleaned it and put it on. I'm not sure I will leave it that way. In a way (from the side) it looks cool. But (front on) I'm not sure...sort of looks like a Yamaha scooter. I have not made any permanent attachment.

I'm having trouble with the side panels.
The frame has been cut off right where the grommets for the Beau Clip Fasteners should be. 
Also the right side panel is being held away from the frame by the fuel regulator and fuel lines.
 Both solvable problems. I want the panels on so it hides all the plumbing and wiring. 
Its still snowing... :yikes:
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: sport rider on February 24, 2020, 11:25:43 am
given that you're going EFI and managing air/fuel yourself, why are you sticking with the air box?
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on February 24, 2020, 12:02:29 pm
given that you're going EFI and managing air/fuel yourself, why are you sticking with the air box?

The air box is part of the design. 
The fuel rail and the injectors are inside..
The front side of the air box provides the mounting surface for the injectors/fuel rail. 
And I get the stock air filter and boots.

I could have gone a different route but it would involve inventing and fabrication something that didn't exist.
I've done a fair amount of that already and this seemed like a natural solution to a problem of mounting and fuel delivery.

https://youtu.be/aLRq8trYBgU
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: sport rider on February 24, 2020, 12:45:20 pm
as you refine and improve, it would be nice to see that go away, but i get it now.  :)
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on February 29, 2020, 10:14:39 pm
Yesterday, finally it was warm enough to go for a tuning ride. It was total crap. Ran very poorly, no power and not very responsive to the throttle. All I did was put those screen mesh in the carbs.
So I took it home and used the warmer afternoon to go for a ride on my V-Star. That felt good.

This morning I started in on finding out why it was running so poorly.
Big clue...after 30 seconds of running I felt all the pipes. Cylinder 2 was stone cold. So I am guessing that when I pulled the carbs and I had everything apart I broke a wire or pulled some wire out of a connector or something like that.  Either injector 2 is not connected or coil pack 2 is not connected.  I figure it out tomorrow. 

Update: It was a loose connection.
 
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on March 02, 2020, 06:12:16 pm
I need to run some test on a set of injectors.

I think the fuel pressure on a C14 is 58 psi.  Can anyone validate that pressure.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on March 02, 2020, 07:32:46 pm
that's a bit high;

from the manual/


•Measure the fuel pressure with the engine stopped.
Fuel Pressure
right after Ignition Switch ON, with pump running:
Standard: 304 kPa (3.1 kgf/cm², 44 psi)
after 3 seconds from Ignition Switch ON, with pump
stopped:
Standard: 280 kPa (2.9 kgf/cm², 41 psi) , residual fuel
pressure
The system should hold the residual
pressure about 30 seconds.
•Start the engine, and let it idle. •Measure the fuel pressure with the engine idling.
Fuel Pressure (idling)
Standard: 304 kPa (3.1 kgf/cm², 44 psi)
NOTE
○The gauge hand will fluctuate. Read the pressure at the
average of the maximum and minimum indications.

from the manual...

also flow:

67ml (2.26oz) during the 3 second test.

good luck.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on March 03, 2020, 09:21:54 am
Thanks for the information. I don't have a manual . 

It is getting harder and harder to google for information/data. More often you will get a few hundred advertisements for items remotely similar to what you were searching for. 

I  searched for " kawasaki c14 fuel regulator specs"  And waded through dozens of pages wanting to sell me a regulator. Finally I found a site that made a reference to 400kpa  which is where I got the 58 psi from

Seriously, Thanks again this information saved me from a very big mistake.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on March 03, 2020, 07:17:27 pm
 :thumbs: :thumbs:
just ask.(feel free to p/m me and ask....)
 I am not going to make any more comments on your project, that you would deem as negative;
in retrospect, I feel compelled to share what I actually do know. we all need to work together in some fashion.
we have a huge data base, and can be accessed, at any moment. I also realize you do not have the longevity within the group, to understand, and access what we have done for more than a decade (actually more than 2 decades...)  in the past. just a fact, and not a foible.
truly,
best to you,
Rich
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on March 03, 2020, 11:27:12 pm
MOB, will do.

I finally got around to turning that doc file into a html page that is readable online. So you don't need to download it and open it in a text editor.

http://gpineau.com/EFI/MOD_Kawasaki%20ZG1000%20to%20EFI-RO%20(6).htm (http://gpineau.com/EFI/MOD_Kawasaki%20ZG1000%20to%20EFI-RO%20(6).htm)

Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: fred-houston on March 04, 2020, 06:55:42 am
Mine runs at 40psi with no issues.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on March 04, 2020, 08:40:14 am
Mine runs at 40psi with no issues.

I've been running my regulator at 43.5psi.

The reason for my question was that I was wanting to characterize a new set of injectors and wanted to know the environment that the are normally in. But when I went looking for data on fuel pressure I could not find any other than a reference to to 400kpa on a C14 regulator which didn't seem right. 

 41-45 is about the right answer and I am happy to know that because with that bogus information i was ready to embark on an experiment that would not have yielded any useful data.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on March 07, 2020, 06:09:17 pm
A hole in my test method.

When I characterized these injectors I was able to get good data on CC/Minute and on slope of the voltage correction. But what I though i had found for the "dead time" was way off.  The default setting in tuner studio was better than the numbers i got from my test jig. 

So I went through an exercise to determine the dead time for the injectors while in the bike.
It involved running the bike at a dead time setting and use 1 squirt per cycle and record the AFR. Then repeat with 2 squirts. Compare the 2 AFR readings. If they are far apart then make .1 ms adjustments and repeat the test until the 2 AFR measurements are the same or very close to the same.

That did the trick the dead time was about 1.2ms.  I went for another tuning ride around the local neighborhood and performance was pretty good. Tomorrow I will take on a longer drive. Get out on the highway and go climbs some hills.  Tuner studio auto-tune is worth every penny.
https://youtu.be/yhRdv9BFkN8
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on March 08, 2020, 08:39:31 am
Sounds like your making more progress….
Keep swinging. You'll get the bugs knocked out.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on March 12, 2020, 01:21:20 pm
The lowering rocker worked out well. That guy knew his geometry. It dropped the bike about an inch and a quarter.  I can now stand the bike up  straight without standing on my toes. Both feet on the ground. I feel much safer now. It could ba a half inch lower but for now I feel comfortable riding this.

The injectors I am using now came off a ZX14R and are a bit over-sized for this bike. They are preforming well but, I think that smaller injectors with a lower flow rate would be easier for the ECU to control and do fine adjustments to.

I have a set of injectors off a Kawasaki Z1000 that arrived the other day.

I am contemplating starting over with the small injectors to see what happens if anything.

Oh and I got some stick on decals that accent the tank.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: Hooligan on March 13, 2020, 03:06:46 am
This boney looks sweet man, great job :chugbeer: :chugbeer:
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on March 25, 2020, 10:01:14 pm
I finally got some injectors for a 1000cc engine.   They came off a z1000. I also have the complete throttle bodies and fuel rail .

So I am thinking out loud here.....if i am going to change out the injectors then maybe use the z1000 throttle bodies as well.  If I hold the throttle bodies up to the head, the spacing is nearly perfect between 1-2 and between 3-4, however the gap between 2 -3 is different. I believe that if I put a small spacer between 2-3 I can make this fit.

Potential problem is if I increase the space between 2 -3 then it will probably screw up the linkage between them.



This is just me doing some thinking.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: sport rider on March 26, 2020, 07:32:36 am
wish I had your skills!  I'll stick to fabrication.  :D
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on March 27, 2020, 04:12:21 pm
The reason I am contemplating changing the injectors is because at low speed first gear the bike is surging. Something like wanting to stall and wanting to race. This happens at minimum throttle, 5-10 MPH.  My hunch is that the injectors are about 40% to big for this motor and the ECU is having trouble providing the correct amount of fuel under these condition. Someone here characterized it as using a fire hose when only a garden hose is needed. Well its not that bad but it does make a difference. The bike runs great on the highway and anytime above 10 MPH. But I think the low end would be a more comfortable ride if I had injectors rated more closely to 1000cc engine. 

I have characterized the flow rate of the Z1000 injectors at 230cc/min That is more inline with the requirements of a 1000 cc motor.
The injector I am using now are 380 cc/min.  I think I will proceed with my plan to use the Z1000 throttle body.

I have also checked the secondary injectors.
So FYI
 injector (EAT250) 396 cc/min (RED)
 injector (EAT287) 380 cc/min (GREEN)
injector (25004Z9)  230 cc/min (ORANGE)
injector Secondary 219cc/min   (little black one)

All the measurements made at 43.5 psi.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 01, 2020, 09:36:44 pm
Modifying a Z1000 Throttle body to fit on a ZG1000 concours.

The cylinder in-port spacing on the Z1000 is consistent from cylinder to cylinder.
But on a ZG1000 the spacing between 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 are the same however there is an addition 13 mm space between cylinders 2 and 3.

In order to make the throttle body from the Z1000 fit the Concours it is necessary to separate the two halves and insert 13 mm spacing between them.  This involves 12.5 mm spacers between the two halves and an extension of the fuel rail as well as an extension of the throttle linkage between the two halves.

https://youtu.be/nFgQnJeQ0mM
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: sport rider on April 02, 2020, 09:24:41 am
not such an easy task.... 
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on April 02, 2020, 09:46:07 am
Lookin' good Gpineau.
I like the way you solve at a problem.
ie; Break it down into multiple smaller issues, and then find a solution for each.

Couple of thoughts; {Ok, a few}
 1: Be sure the threads of the screw pass thru the nylon locking material. {on the nut inside your throttle body}
      {If that nut vibrates of, would be a baaaad day}
 2: Is the material you used to lengthen the throttle plate strong e'nuff?
 3: If you damage a C-10 intake boot, I have spares.
 4: With the new injector's will you be going back to an unmodified air box?
        {If so, I have one}

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 02, 2020, 10:23:44 am
Lookin' good Gpineau.
I like the way you solve at a problem.
ie; Break it down into multiple smaller issues, and then find a solution for each.

Couple of thoughts; {Ok, a few}
 1: Be sure the threads of the screw pass thru the nylon locking material. {on the nut inside your throttle body}
      {If that nut vibrates of, would be a baaaad day}
 2: Is the material you used to lengthen the throttle plate strong e'nuff?
 3: If you damage a C-10 intake boot, I have spares.
 4: With the new injector's will you be going back to an unmodified air box?
        {If so, I have one}

Ride safe, Ted
All good questions.
1. I did make sure the screw was long enough to pass through the nylon part of the nut. no chance it will vibrate off.  But if it ever did   :(

2.  Not sure what you mean. But i will guess your speak of the tab of metal I used to extend the linkage between the the two sets of throttle bodies. Actually the first thing I tried had too much spring to it and I could see that the first set would move slightly before the second set. The solution was a much stiffer steel and I bent a curve into it to increase its stiffness. So it is not flat anymore but is a little dish shaped along its length.  If there is a weak point in all this that would be it.

3.Thanks for  the offer. Hope I don't need them but I may take you up on it . I don't plan to cut all the way through the boot but to use a drimmel with a stone wheel to hollow out just enough material to allow the injector enough room for the spray to  fan out and a straight shot at the intake port.

4. I have some pod filters that I was thinking of using but the rear of the throttle bodies is not round. They are oval and wont easily mate with the filter pods. I did check  the rubber boot on the air-box and they can be stretched to fit the throttle bodies.  So..Yes I will disassemble the mods I made to the air-box and seal it back up and reuse it. There is a port on the bottom of the air-box to vent the crank case that i think is still useful. And the air box is where I mounted the intake air temperature sensor.

Being under a stay at home order makes for a lot of idle time to rethink some things and contemplate on how it could be done better.  I really think my original design works well and  changing to the smaller injectors would solve the issue of surging at low speed. But since I had the throttle body sitting right in front of me I said  "why not?" .   ( I actually purchased the injectors but they came with the throttle body attached...lol)
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 02, 2020, 10:34:09 am
not such an easy task....

In my opinion, none of this was easy but I am having a blast.! Edwards Deming is my hero...."continuous improvement".

Whats easier? modifying a throttle body or cutting up an air-box and mounting injectors inside? Easy is relative.

Your bike is looking good.  You know that beautiful charcoal metal-flake paint job I did on my tank. I'm not sure what was up with the clear coat but I spilled some gasoline on it a week later and it literally melted off. I was heartbroken .  But the new burgundy looks good with the side panels.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 02, 2020, 05:08:53 pm
I think I have a solution for adapting the throttle body to the existing boots.

https://youtu.be/Jomnrn0MhEk

Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 03, 2020, 12:18:49 pm
Well, it fits..!
I don't have enough four letter words in my vocabulary to describe how difficult this was! Should have been a 30 min job but 4 hours later I finally got it.

Alignment is crucial. But the biggest obstacle was the coolant pipe that is attached to the rear of the head interferes with all 4 boots.  I ended up grinding the side of the boots that faces the coolant pipe nearly flat so I could get the boot on and force a clamp between them.

This is just a test for fit. I will need to construct an new air-box because the stock box will not fit any more without some modifications.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on April 03, 2020, 03:15:51 pm
Well done.
Suspecting the air box won't work because the throttle bodies are closer to the air box than the carbs?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 03, 2020, 03:21:20 pm
Well done.
Suspecting the air box won't work because the throttle bodies are closer to the air box than the carbs?

Ride safe, Ted
Your suspensions are right.  I am modifying the airbox now to see what part I can salvage.  It may require a whole new airbox.

And the throttle cables are too short. They need to be about 2 feet longer to cross over and come from underneath. replacements on order.


Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 04, 2020, 08:02:26 am
I cut the back off of the air-box but that was not enough. It is the width at the back side of  the box that prevents you from mounting it any further back.  It does not need to be as big as it is. It is a huge box with a small filter and a tiny input port. It looks like it was formed to fill the available space.   

I think I am wasting my time but I am printing a replacement box out of ABS. Its too big to for my printer to handle so I am making it in two pieces. I'll give it a try but I have my eye on an air-box on ebay that will fit. Also there are always filter pods..
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on April 04, 2020, 10:05:58 am
Sounds like a project. I was thinking more of cutting off the front or middle of the box and move it rearward.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 04, 2020, 02:17:26 pm
Sounds like a project. I was thinking more of cutting off the front or middle of the box and move it rearward.

Ride safe, Ted

That wont work. The filter is in the front. The closest point toward the front that you can cut is at the rear edge of the filter, which I have done. At that point the box is too wide to go back any further. Cant take anything off the sides cause the filter dictates the width.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 05, 2020, 07:20:09 pm
I test fired my new throttle bodies and it ran for a few seconds.  no sensors connected  just injectors and coils and it ran....Woohoo!  The stock air-box will not fit any more since the throttle bodies are a bit longer than the carbs were.  I got some filter pods ordered and on the way. I need to fabricate a bracket to hold the throttle bodies up because I am afraid that with the added weight of the filters they may be pulled from the boots. But it is looking good.

https://youtu.be/DIfKgmlk4u4
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 10, 2020, 01:48:41 pm
Connie_rider. You asked about adjusting for altitude. Well I just did it.
Wanted to use the MAP sensor that came with the Kawasaki throttle bodies.
To do this I lifted pin 1 of the existing speeduino MAP sensor and connected the output of the Kawasaki MAP sensor to the pad under the lifted pin.
I picked up power and ground for the sensor at pins 2 & 3.
I ran pin 1 of the old MAP sensor through a 470 resistor to the analogue pin A05 of the arduino. 
This now makes the Kawasaki sensor which is mounted on the throttle bodies the main MAP sensor for the ECU and the original MAP sensor is now a barometer. 
To calibrate the Kawasaki sensor I set the 0 volt setting to 2 kpa and the 5 volt setting to 125 kpa.
With these settings the MAP and Barometer meters tracked each other. So now the ECU can check the barometer every couple seconds meaning I can Ride from Denver to Tampa Bay without worrying about   the changes in atmospheric pressure.

https://youtu.be/gyYeJQyZTVQ
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on April 10, 2020, 02:37:59 pm
I think that was an important improvement.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 18, 2020, 02:00:15 pm
Cleaned up the throttle cable extensions. The original cables were too short to go under the throttle bodies and reach the far side so I had to extend them.. I kept the original sheath and ends and bought a couple replacement cables that were long enough. After I threaded the new cables through the old sheath I measured the amount that it it would take to reach the bottom of the throttle bodies. Then I cut a couple pieces of sheath from another cable and slid it over the cable.  Where the joints are, I drilled through an aluminum spacer so the both pieces of the sheath fit snugly into it.  The part that mates with the throttle bodies was cut from the old cables and mated with the new cable I had constructed.  Clear as mud right?  It's easier to see in the photos. I would rather have a single cable sheath but I wanted to keep the ends that fit in the throttle handle and the throttle body.

Bored to death. I have done the warm up enrichment tune 3 times this week.  Can't go for a tuning ride because we are restricted to essential errands only.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: sport rider on April 18, 2020, 07:43:33 pm
not seeing a problem.  a tuning ride IS essential!  :)
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on April 19, 2020, 08:05:53 am
Did you ever determine what the engine noise was?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 19, 2020, 08:28:30 am
Did you ever determine what the engine noise was?

Ride safe, Ted
No I didn't.
The noise is still there it is not as loud as when it first happened. Could be only at certain temperatures. I am guessing the cam is slapping the cam follower but cant be sure unless I pull the valve cover,which I dread.  But I may pull the cover and do a valve adjustment just to stay busy.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 19, 2020, 04:44:41 pm
I broke down and pulled the valve cover. Glad I did.

I guess the valves have never been adjusted since the factory.
All of the intake valves had zero clearance. None whatsoever.  And the exhaust were almost as bad. 

Cylinder 1 exhaust had zero clearance.

Set the intakes to .007 and the exhaust to .009.
Now all the valves sound the same when it is running.

I wish Colorado would let us go for a ride!
 
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on April 19, 2020, 09:34:13 pm
Wow. That is going to effect the tune you did as well.
You probably had leakage at the valves.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 20, 2020, 10:53:20 am
Wow. That is going to effect the tune you did as well.
You probably had leakage at the valves.

Ride safe, Ted

Yes, I am going to start the tune over again. Should not have changed that much. It starts and runs ok now. I can't tell for sure how much it changed until I can get out on the road.

One thing for sure, the engine is louder than before. The valves are actually closing now. Before the adjustment I think most of the valves didn't actually seat. I can now hear the cam followers tapping on top of the valves where before they were always in contact.

Its a beautiful day outside I wish I could get out but with  my luck I would get pulled over for violating the stay at home order.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 21, 2020, 03:37:03 pm
Running out of things to do and stuck at home due to the corona virus. I remembered I forgot something....I need to balance the throttle bodies.
It took about 30 minutes now I am bored again....!

https://youtu.be/Ph2pYHU4iOo

Is everyone else as bored as me? Colorado has a stay at home order until April 26th.

What's it like where you live?
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on April 21, 2020, 04:28:12 pm
What do you do when you need to go get groceries/supplies?
        I assume you drive to the store..
So, ride to the store {and while doing so} do an adjust..
  Your not going to be face to face with anyone.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 21, 2020, 07:00:27 pm
Being my age and taking immune supressive drugs, I try not to go inside the stores. I send my wife in with a mask and gloves. I'm not afraid to ride my bike since I would not be interacting with anyone. But if the sheriff sees me out on a country road wandering aimlessly I might get a citation.  The order is supposed to be lifted on Sunday with continued social distancing and masks when in public.  I can wait another 5 days

 This is how I felt all week...https://youtu.be/HpU6NtOE1SY
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: kkja13 on April 22, 2020, 08:18:19 am
Our stay at home order is more of a suggestion in our county (East TX, Smith Co).  I've been out on my C10 many times just burning up the cheap fuel!
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on April 22, 2020, 11:00:32 am
My store suggestion was an excuse if your stopped.
  Not an actual destination / shopping trip.

      <evil grin>   :rotflmao:

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Here's something to sing while we're setting at home...……

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Their+coming+to+take+me+away+Haa+haa%2c%2c%2c%2c&view=detail&mid=46AFBD4359200CF75E5C46AFBD4359200CF75E5C&FORM=VIRE&cc=US&setlang=en-US&cvid=4374ea3658fd41c7ac338b052070d8ee&qs=SW&nclid=CAA502AFF7FAB55ECF9B91C37058FC0D&ts=1587573400732 (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Their+coming+to+take+me+away+Haa+haa%2c%2c%2c%2c&view=detail&mid=46AFBD4359200CF75E5C46AFBD4359200CF75E5C&FORM=VIRE&cc=US&setlang=en-US&cvid=4374ea3658fd41c7ac338b052070d8ee&qs=SW&nclid=CAA502AFF7FAB55ECF9B91C37058FC0D&ts=1587573400732)
 
Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: VirginiaJim on April 22, 2020, 12:13:45 pm
I don't think anyone is stopping anyone out here in Virginia.  At least I've never heard of it happening.  They might look at large groups but that's about it as far as I know.  In fact, I went out this morning (truck) to get some tools and there was quite a bit of traffic on the road.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 22, 2020, 01:27:36 pm
I underwent an organ transplant 4 years ago and I take immune supressive medications to prevent my immune system from attacking the donor organ. That makes me very susceptible to any virus or bacteria. Since my wife is out at work all day we are maintaining distance between us and we sleep in different rooms. Constantly wiping down surfaces and washing hands.  My daughter also works  and she has been living at a hotel since this started. 

I didn't mean to imply that we are under marshal law here. But we do have a stay at home order in force.  I see more police patrols in the neighborhood than before. We of course can go out for groceries and supplies. For the most part the streets are empty in my neighborhood, but occasionally I see kids out playing on their bikes and I see adults walking their dogs but I don't see groups anywhere.

My wife works at Walmart and they take your temperature when you enter the store. And they limit the number of people that can be in the store at any one time. Same at home depot. I have made trips to home depot but I place my order online and wait for a text message before I go get it. Then it is in the lockers at the front of the store.

I don't leave the house unless I have a destination and I am wearing my mask.  I might take a spin on the bike later today but I probably wont leave the neighborhood.

Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 22, 2020, 05:17:52 pm
I went out for a short 15 minute ride. I went out the back of the neighborhood and took the route that would take me past all the fast food places so I would have a plausible reason for being out. 

I turned on auto tune before I left and let it adjust the VE tables as I drove around. The original tune that  was done with the larger injectors and injected from behind the  butterfly is a lot different than the  new configuration. With the smaller injectors and throttle bodies instead of re-purposed carbs the original tune was way too rich and auto-tune spent most of the time leaning out the VE table. A few cells at low RPM required more fuel.
 
I need to change the throttle enrichment curve. Its going too lean when you go to wide open throttle too quickly it will bog down for a second or two. I think that is why Kawasaki put the secondary throttle plates in the throttle bodies.

Worst of it I lost one cylinder on the final half mile. I got on a strait road and opened up,  I got up to 85 then shut it down and glided the rest of the way to the stop light. Just as i reached the light it started backfiring and running really rough. I thought I was going to have to push it the rest of the way home. But it stayed running long enough to get back the house.  It would run fine for a few seconds then start sputtering again. I think this is a fouled plug or intermittent coil.  Oh well I have something to do tomorrow. 

I looked at the VE table when I got home and see a few unexpected numbers that I cant explain. ( ve values of 5 or less when downshifting).  In the chart to the right of the ve table green is all the cells that were changed , red means it was adjusted leaner and blue means it was adjusted richer. Darker color represents larger adjustments.
 
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on April 23, 2020, 06:31:20 am
Sounds promising.
I understand your still not done.
Prior to the misfire, did it seem better than with the other Throttle bodies/injectors?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 23, 2020, 08:14:24 am
Yes it does seem better in some ways. The acceleration at the low end is stronger than before (as long as you don't go full throttle).  Cold start is better, usually on the first or second revolution.

Yesterday was  the fastest I have ever ridden it.  85 mph,  it had more but I was coming up on an intersection so I shut it down. 
I need to address the problem of it running out of steam at full throttle. Up to 3/4 throttle is does very well with great acceleration. But that last quarter turn on the throttle does not seem to add much. It still goes a bit faster but the acceleration is slower.  I think it it going too lean at wide open throttle. I can do some logs of the AFR while running and see exactly what is going on.

First I need to find out what caused it to start backfiring. Usually that is a fouled plug. When I got it home it was idling, but I could hear an occasional misfire. Ill check the plugs today.  I hope it is that simple.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on April 23, 2020, 01:52:01 pm
Hate to mention this, but is it possible that the injectors are now too small?
If so, it would run out of steam and go lean..

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 23, 2020, 03:51:50 pm
Hate to mention this, but is it possible that the injectors are now too small?
If so, it would run out of steam and go lean..

Ride safe, Ted

 You had to mention that!
But yes that has crossed my mind. OR it could have been the #1 plug on the verge of fouling.

 I will need to take a data log while it is doing it in order to be sure.  I can monitor the pulse width and see if at any time it goes over 90% duty cycle. That is where I set the limit.

The most recent  log I have, there is not an instance of the issue. The highest RPM recorded was 4500 RPM and corresponds to a duty cycle of 28.9% and a pulse width of 4.1ms. To exceed 90% duty cycle the pulse width would be over 13 ms. (lowest part of the graph).

 But that is under no load. I need to capture the log while it is under load and exhibiting the problem.

I took these injectors off a 1000cc Kawasaki Z1000 so they should be enough but the proof is in the testing.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 23, 2020, 05:45:30 pm
watching and listening to progress,
did you remove and or completely block the functions of the old reed valve zone?
In the 45 years i've been tuning, I think what you are seeing now, with the lack of accell rise, and the backfire thing, is that things are going very rich, when a bike runs lean, it will rev sky high, (bwawwwwww), and when it is being over fueled, they bog..((braaaawwBoggggg), and fall flat..and won't high rev.
The backfire, is un burnt fuel, which ignites, when it finally mixes with air, in the exhaust, as secondary sign..
I also see you are running big pod filters, so, that may be adding some oddity.. maybe wrap them in a single layer of porous foam, to add some resistance for airflow.. it may have an effect on "back off "throttle fuel atomisation..

also glad to see you finally adjusted valves.. that should have been done from the beginning, as everything you have done relies on those.  :thumbs: :thumbs:

just tossing some tidbits.. but I don't think you are really running lean, remember, your valves, and timing.. are not the same, as the EFI bike your injectors came from.  If you compare the C14, which has larger displacement, a lot of fuel flow when desired, and much smaller exhaust pipes and restrictions, has a huge airbox where the filter lives.. it's function is to contain, and prevent reversion/pulse effects, of air supplied to the intake.

Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 23, 2020, 06:50:35 pm
watching and listening to progress,
did you remove and or completely block the functions of the old reed valve zone?
In the 45 years i've been tuning, I think what you are seeing now, with the lack of accell rise, and the backfire thing, is that things are going very rich, when a bike runs lean, it will rev sky high, (bwawwwwww), and when it is being over fueled, they bog..((braaaawwBoggggg), and fall flat..and won't high rev.
The backfire, is un burnt fuel, which ignites, when it finally mixes with air, in the exhaust, as secondary sign..
I also see you are running big pod filters, so, that may be adding some oddity.. maybe wrap them in a single layer of porous foam, to add some resistance for airflow.. it may have an effect on "back off "throttle fuel atomisation..

also glad to see you finally adjusted valves.. that should have been done from the beginning, as everything you have done relies on those.  :thumbs: :thumbs:

just tossing some tidbits.. but I don't think you are really running lean, remember, your valves, and timing.. are not the same, as the EFI bike your injectors came from.  If you compare the C14, which has larger displacement, a lot of fuel flow when desired, and much smaller exhaust pipes and restrictions, has a huge air-box where the filter lives.. it's function is to contain, and prevent reversion/pulse effects, of air supplied to the intake.

Thanks, for the advice. You may be right. It could be too rich. I checked all the plugs and 1 & 4 are black , 2 & 3 are dark.  I cleaned them and the log I posted previously was after i reinstalled them. I can see in the log that the AFR during that short run was in the neighborhood of 16:1 But those readings were all while it was still warming up and me milking the throttle. 

The VE table I started with was from the old tune when I had the larger injectors inside the air-box. So now I have a complete set of throttle bodies and injectors of a Z1000 the tune is far from optimum.  I could see when I got home that  tuner studio spent most of its time trying to lean it out. I am sure there is a lot more to do.   The misfire seems to have passed since I cleaned the plugs.  I will have more information when I next ride. I will turn on logging before I leave the garage so I will have a record of everything that happens from start to finish.

As far as the valves.... I should have known. But I had a lot of things on my mind and tons of other distractions.  This is the 3rd used Connie I have purchased. The first 2 had the same problem, little or no valve clearance.

The old reed valves were removed and the ports were blocked.  If they were leaking what would be the effect?
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 23, 2020, 09:07:48 pm
if you truley wanna block those ports, best way is to pull the cover, run a 5/16" tap in each hole, and install a rtv coated setscrew.. to truely block the port hole. Sometimes the cover plates leak, when just installing those as a remedie.

the Air Ingress, afforded thru the reeds, did actually prevent that back fire thing, by allowing fresh air into the exhaust, just past the actual exhaust valves, to burn off excessive fuel on decell mode, without backfires.. If they were removed, and there is a leak, its a tricky leak thing, as it allows pulses to puff back up, and into the valve cover (the reed is a one way valve, allow flow down, but not back up..)

if you did away with that all, the excess fuel, when shutting down the throttle, will accumulate, and pop, and backfire when the LEL (lower explosive limit) is reached, in the exhaust when the exhaust is diluted with enough oxygen, to explode. Usually down lower in the exhaust pipe, due to pulse.

Following you, keep up on it. I'm just trying to help at this point, not to be messing with you.(I think you know I apologized, and hopefully you realize I'm being sincere)

carry on,
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 24, 2020, 08:18:52 am
Up until yesterday when ever I saw your name attached to a post I would say to myself, "oh hell here we go again". But yesterday was different. I appreciate the constructive advice and help.

Let me say THANKS again. I can see from the tone that you are sincerely trying to help.

I want to put the past head butting behind us. I saw your apology and I sent you a private message acknowledging it. Now I publicly accept it so now we can move on. 
I hope that going forward we can help each other in common goals to achieve successful projects.

PS. Honestly I am so relieved. Gerry




Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: sport rider on April 24, 2020, 08:51:10 am
Geez...enough of this hugging and kissing stuff.  Fix the damn bike!   :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

 :1DeadBanana
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 24, 2020, 09:19:07 am
Well... darn it.
I have waited long enough. 

I need to get sneaky. I know a place that has a strait 2.5 mile flat, paved, farm road..hmmm 
40°11'23.2"N 104°58'19.9"W  <<<<------X Follow along for a virtual ride.
left on county road 7
left on CR 5 1/2
left on 119
under I-25 underpass.
left on I-25 East frontage road.  Head north.
right on state highway 66. ....
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on April 24, 2020, 09:49:59 am
Go for it….

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 24, 2020, 04:03:12 pm
Made some changes to the AFR settings and leaned out the VE table at the high end. Started out and after about 10 miles I gave up and went home. Ran very poorly. The same as yesterday only worse. couldnt get over 60mph.

But I was in the mood and hopped on my V-Star and made the run described above. It felt really good to get out and feel the bike on the road. I love the sound of a V-Twin.
 
It's turned cold and looking like rain. So now I am home analyzing the log and scratching my head.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: T Cro ® on April 24, 2020, 04:52:38 pm
Following you, keep up on it. I'm just trying to help at this point, not to be messing with you.(I think you know I apologized, and hopefully you realize I'm being sincere)

carry on,

Who are you and what have you done with Rich? Please don't hurt him... MUCH
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 24, 2020, 05:04:28 pm
Who are you and what have you done with Rich? Please don't hurt him... MUCH

DON'T MAKE ME COME DOWN THERE...  :rotflmao: :yikes: :thumbs: :salute:

I'm recovering from a complete "Opti-rectomy", where I removed my head, from my rectum.
it's a seasonal thing... and I believe in Karma....
peace
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: T Cro ® on April 24, 2020, 06:59:40 pm
DON'T MAKE ME COME DOWN THERE...  :rotflmao: :yikes: :thumbs: :salute:

I'm recovering from a complete "Opti-rectomy", where I removed my head, from my rectum.
it's a seasonal thing... and I believe in Karma....
peace

I could come to you or at least come closer... I'm in Toledo and Cleveland quite frequently...  ;)  8)
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: Rick Hall on April 25, 2020, 12:24:22 am
Who are you and what have you done with Rich? Please don't hurt him... MUCH

Wot Tony sed ;)

Rick
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: Rick Hall on April 25, 2020, 12:38:25 am
Well... darn it.
I have waited long enough. 

I need to get sneaky. I know a place that has a strait 2.5 mile flat, paved, farm road..hmmm 
40°11'23.2"N 104°58'19.9"W  <<<<------X Follow along for a virtual ride.
left on county road 7
left on CR 5 1/2
left on 119
under I-25 underpass.
left on I-25 East frontage road.  Head north.
right on state highway 66. ....

So close...
From Lyons, I'm a 10 minute ride, or 12 miles. Unless you ride a Hardley... or drive a Chebby ;) Not like I'd answer the door if you showed up, but you never know ;)

Wash yer lunch hooks, wear a mask, keep posting updates!!

Rick
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 25, 2020, 05:22:42 am
So close...
From Lyons, I'm a 10 minute ride, or 12 miles. Unless you ride a Hardley... or drive a Chebby ;) Not like I'd answer the door if you showed up, but you never know ;)

Wash yer lunch hooks, wear a mask, keep posting updates!!

Rick
Really? That's another great stretch of flat highway between  Longmont and Lyons But I didn't want to get that far from home in-case I had problems.

I found one problem that would possible be causing the bad performance.  Last time I did the warm-up enrichment the warm-up threshold was set at 174 degrees. Looking at the log I see the coolant temperature is teetering between 174  and 178. So the ECU was going in and out of warm-up enrichment.  Another strangeness in the data log is the timing advance is not correct.
There is always a tomorrow. 
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 25, 2020, 03:59:51 pm
I could come to you or at least come closer... I'm in Toledo and Cleveland quite frequently...  ;)  8)

I thought you retired?

damn, I didn't realize.. I wanna get together with Strawboss (Dave), maybe we can make it a mini outdoor get together.. I'll bring my "6 foot pole/jabby stick"..   Both Dave and I could be in downtown in less than a half hour. :grouphug: :grouphug: :popcorn:
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: VirginiaJim on April 26, 2020, 07:51:47 am
Who are you and what have you done with Rich? Please don't hurt him... MUCH


Don't worry.   It's only a phase he's going through....LOL  I'm sure it's due to too much Corona.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: T Cro ® on April 26, 2020, 08:40:02 am
I thought you retired?

damn, I didn't realize.. I wanna get together with Strawboss (Dave), maybe we can make it a mini outdoor get together.. I'll bring my "6 foot pole/jabby stick"..   Both Dave and I could be in downtown in less than a half hour. :grouphug: :grouphug: :popcorn:

Nope no plans on retiring just yet, I've got it too good where I'm at... Moved down to TN about 6 years ago, but plans change as it looks like we are gonna come back north to get closer to family for the wife. Looking at north east corner of IN right in the James chain of lakes...
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: VirginiaJim on April 26, 2020, 09:16:11 am
That should lessen the commute...
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 26, 2020, 09:52:19 am
Back on topic.
Found some issues. The reason it was running poorly is three fold.
1. The warm up enrichment threshold  temperature was set too high. So the ECU was switching in and out of warm up. (dangers of auto-tune)
2. The spark advance table got botched somehow. I created a new table using megasquirt spark table generator.
3. The heater in the O2 sensor has burned out. I was tuning the last 30 minutes with a defective O2 sensor. This will set me back about a week waiting for a replacement.

Friends tell me the reason for the O2 sensor failure was thermal shock.  I was powering it on with the key. If I waited too long to start the engine then condensation inside the tail pipe would hit the hot sensor causing thermal shock. It is recommended that the O2 sensor be powered after / at the same time as the engine.  So I am going to power the O2 sensor heater at the same time as the fuel pump which only runs when the engine is running.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: T Cro ® on April 26, 2020, 05:36:00 pm
... Back on topic...

Apologies for the hijack...
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 26, 2020, 06:49:01 pm
No problem,
The whole forum is a social club anyway. I just had an update I needed to post so ...carry on.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: T Cro ® on April 26, 2020, 07:29:17 pm
No problem,
The whole forum is a social club anyway. I just had an update I needed to post so ...carry on.

Where is the LIKE button...
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on April 27, 2020, 12:07:56 pm
Back on topic.
Found some issues. The reason it was running poorly is three fold.
1. The warm up enrichment threshold  temperature was set too high. So the ECU was switching in and out of warm up. (dangers of auto-tune)
2. The spark advance table got botched somehow. I created a new table using megasquirt spark table generator.
3. The heater in the O2 sensor has burned out. I was tuning the last 30 minutes with a defective O2 sensor. This will set me back about a week waiting for a replacement.

Friends tell me the reason for the O2 sensor failure was thermal shock.  I was powering it on with the key. If I waited too long to start the engine then condensation inside the tail pipe would hit the hot sensor causing thermal shock. It is recommended that the O2 sensor be powered after / at the same time as the engine.  So I am going to power the O2 sensor heater at the same time as the fuel pump which only runs when the engine is running.

Yahooo!
      Progress...  :thumbs:

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 28, 2020, 06:55:29 pm
This is possibly the last post for a while. I have solved the issues that I posted previously.
The bike now has the correct spark advance table and a brand new O2 sensor.
I moved the power for the O2 sensor over to the fuel pump relay so that it does not have a chance to heat up before the engine exhaust is cleared of vapor.

I set the warm up enrichment to terminate at 116 degrees coolant temperature.

Went for a tuning ride. Because the last tune attempt was done with a defective O2 sensor the bike was running way too rich. After about 10 minutes of tuning at various RPM and loads the bike is running better than ever.  I'm not real good at speed shifting but it is very easy to hit 80 mph before you realize it. It is an absolute thrill to find an open stretch of straight road and go through the gears. It accelerates very well and pulls hills with little effort. I know my other Connie and my V-Star would not be able to keep up.

There is still some tweaking to be done but for the most part I am calling the project finished. Unless there is  a cool exhaust or raised handle bars or some really amazing improvement I won't be posting as often.

 I learned a lot, enhanced my vocabulary of 4 letter words, and broke a few tools.  God only knows how much money I spent on solutions that didn't work out. But all in all I had fun and I feel a level of accomplishment.

Maybe a video is coming soon....https://youtu.be/HxlnfWB97fk

 
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: Gitbox on April 29, 2020, 10:16:37 am
I've been following your progress on the EFI conversion and I do admire your tenacity and persistence. It was a project I considered way back but just did not have the time to pursue it. After watching your project, I'm glad I didn't - LOL It's a LOT to undertake. Great job!

I'd like to see a video of the bike when you get it completely finished.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 29, 2020, 12:53:55 pm
I've been following your progress on the EFI conversion and I do admire your tenacity and persistence. It was a project I considered way back but just did not have the time to pursue it. After watching your project, I'm glad I didn't - LOL It's a LOT to undertake. Great job!

I'd like to see a video of the bike when you get it completely finished.
Hey go for it.  It should be much easier for you.  I have already made all the stupid mistakes.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: sport rider on April 29, 2020, 02:01:53 pm
it's been lots of fun following this one.  only wish I had the capability to do this....or course, that would cost me more $  :D
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on April 29, 2020, 07:59:04 pm
I've been following your progress on the EFI conversion and I do admire your tenacity and persistence. It was a project I considered way back but just did not have the time to pursue it. After watching your project, I'm glad I didn't - LOL It's a LOT to undertake. Great job!

I'd like to see a video of the bike when you get it completely finished.

I don't understand why you say "completely finished" I think is is finished but it will never be completely finished.
If you really think you want to try, let me know. The guys at the speeduino forum are a terrific bunch of mates. They done this on everything from cars to skidoos, to lawnmower, to motorcycles. 
Some memories from the build. https://youtu.be/odRc84ogfQ4
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: Gitbox on April 30, 2020, 06:37:11 am
Hey gp, I just meant when everything is all tidied up and back together like it's your daily driver. Kind of like the prototype is finished and now you're into production.  ;D


I won't be trying this as I have moved on to a factory EFI bike - a Yamaha FJR 1300. (I also wanted ABS brakes)


Again, thanks for a very interesting project!
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on May 03, 2020, 01:38:05 pm
it's been lots of fun following this one.  only wish I had the capability to do this....or course, that would cost me more $  :D

I've seen your work and I know you could do it better than me. The cost is between 600-700 $.  Less if you are a good shopper.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on May 08, 2020, 11:43:03 am
Changed out the racer handle bars. Now I can actually sit up straight . I think they are a good 8 inches higher. And much more comfortable.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on May 09, 2020, 05:15:32 pm
Well crap!
Raising the handle bars puts a strain on the homemade throttle cables and now they are binding. The throttle will not return to idle by itself. I need to make another couple custom  cables. How does the song go?  If it wernt for bad luck, i'd have no luck at all.....
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 09, 2020, 05:53:08 pm
just sharing, I feel your pain man.. but.. I'm a Bluesman.. so.....

https://youtu.be/pKxqKRyjMZY (https://youtu.be/pKxqKRyjMZY)
http://youtu.be/pKxqKRyjMZY (http://youtu.be/pKxqKRyjMZY)


keep on trucking man, you are almost there...  :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on May 09, 2020, 07:04:53 pm
Hey , while I got your attention, how do I tell if the alternator is going bad.
When I start the bike the voltage is 12 something, then slowly creeps up to 13.9. Takes about a minute to reach 13.9. I know the battery is good cause it is new and it has no trouble cranking.


I would think that the voltage would jump to 13.9 immediately after the motor started.

 
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 10, 2020, 05:18:11 pm
Takes a minute or so, to "recover" from the initial current draw at start.. then it pops up to 13+ v, normal.

Do a check, left side, near the J box, the 2 wire harness that comes from the generator, up to the harness, may have to unwrap some tape, if it was never unwrapped prior.. look for a 2 blade white nylon faston connector in that run.. coming from the generator it will have a brown, and a dark gray wire, with a cloth type insulation. unplug it, replug it, a couple times, and examine if it has any signs of melting.. it's a resistive point in the charge circuit, and many melt down when farkles are attached, unbeknownst, until it melts completely and shorts.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on May 11, 2020, 11:20:48 am
Thanks,
That was it. At least part of the problem. The alternator connector has overheated.   I guess the added load of a fuel pump pushed it over the edge. When I went to open the connector it was so brittle it fell apart. I tossed the  old contacts  and replaced them with new ones.  Then heat shrink both ends. I'll check it again later and see how well it is holding up. Maybe replace with a different connector that can handle more current.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on May 11, 2020, 12:49:40 pm
The bike is charging very slowly. it takes about 5 minutes from start to get back to 13.9 volts.  I found that if I increase idle from 1000 RPM to 1200 RPM it will charge faster. 

The alternator is rated for 25 amps and I am pulling 19 with everything running. I think the addition of the fuel pump is the cause of the slow charging. The fuel pump is pulling 8 amps and the headlight is pulling 5 amps.

I think if I replace the headlight with an LED lamp I can cut it's pull down to 2.5 amps.  For the fuel pump I can get a smaller one or make a PWN controller for is so that it runs at a slower speed.

There is another alternator that puts out 50% more power. Is is a zzr1200 alternator. It will bolt on and with a little wiring change it will fit the zg1000. But the cheapest I found on ebay is $150.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 11, 2020, 03:25:25 pm
Thanks,
That was it. At least part of the problem. The alternator connector has overheated.   I guess the added load of a fuel pump pushed it over the edge. When I went to open the connector it was so brittle it fell apart. I tossed the  old contacts  and replaced them with new ones.  Then heat shrink both ends. I'll check it again later and see how well it is holding up. Maybe replace with a different connector that can handle more current.

Glad I could point you to that; It is a common thing moreso, in older bikes, and comes from an invisible resistive coating, that takes place on those blades after time.. and, progresses to a point it will melt, or be a thermally resistive connection... Had it happen to me, in the high speed lane, during a 12 hour trip... took me out, and my bike was actually running on the batt only for a half hour.. scavenged wires from my aux driving lights, to replace the connector on the roadside.. and got it going and made it home, where I repaired it correctly..  When this occurred, I devised a method for prevention, and have done it on numerous C10's, and it works... note which wire color mates on either side of the old connector... then, snip the old connection on both sides... strip those wires back about 1/2", and scrape them free of any discoloration, if it is real bad, trim them all back more, till you get to bright copper.. (the wires them selves, will actually carry the current output of the generator... the faston blades however, can only handle about 15 amps MAX.. which is the week spot...)...
Create 8 pieces of 14 awg copper wire "pigtails", 4 with "male" Blades crimped on, and 4 with insulated (covered) "female" Blade recepticles.... make them all about 4" long, for ease of construction..
Slip heatshrink over each existing wire on bike (4 wires), then solder a pair of the new pigtail wires, to each existing connection, and slip the shrink over it, and shrink it.. this make a single wire, into a pair of wires, which will double the ampacity by the use of 2 blades, where only one pre-existed.. (basically making each wire that was there, a "Y" with 2 blades..) do the same on the other side, with the receptcle pigtails.. color code them for future use..
As noted again, a single 1/4" Faston blade, will only handle 15 amps, before it overheats..

So, you really don't need a new plastic type connector, the Faston connectors, just doubled up, cost $0, and work perfectly..

Some of the older COG folks,(I know both Ted "Connie Rider", and Rick Hall, this forums owner, were there watching this all..I have photos..) and many more that attended the '07 National rally, saw this conversion firsthand, during one of my tech sessions there, when the owner of the bike I was doing a carb rebuild demo on, happened to mention just that same day/morning he smelled "something like burning clutch/plastic" during a conversation..I looked over at the bike, and realized he had some aux lights, and lots of electrical farkles.. (which I knew in my bikes failure, was the straw that caused the meltdown)  I stopped the carb demo, walked over to the bike, exposed the connector, and showed him...it was worse than the one in your photo..he was right at the point where within the next couple rides.. it would have been a total meltdown, and short circuit.. we jumped the shark on that, and I directed 3 people in this process, while I was finishing my carb lecture.
Luckily for all, at that particular venue, and time, I had my "rolling garage" in my truck,(which my loving wife drove to the rally with) specifically designed for this 3 day tech session I volunteered for.. and had wire, connectors, soldering equipment.. TOOLS, compressor and AIR tools.. solvents, and "juices", of all types, and quite realistically could have disassembled, and rebuilt a C10, onsite, with no need to run for supplies..
One other tidbit you won't find anywhere; when you initially "start the bike", the headlights come on.. when the bike is running, (and this takes a bit of practice, but can be quickly learned by a few attempts)  you can then, pull "up" slightly on the ignition key, and "quickly" cycle it left and right from run to off to on, you have to do it fast... and this will release the lighting relay, and allow much more charging amps while sitting idle..   I ran NAPA 80/100 headlight bulbs... and as you see, the bike at "idle" does not produce amps, it takes about 2500 rpm, to get to the real charging amps.. the "headlight trick" will effectively free up almost 7-8 amps, during idle...

.  For the fuel pump I can get a smaller one or make a PWN controller for is so that it runs at a slower speed.

There is another alternator that puts out 50% more power. Is is a zzr1200 alternator. It will bolt on and with a little wiring change it will fit the zg1000. But the cheapest I found on ebay is $150.

I'm not an electrical wizard/guru, but knowing motors, and such, I'm not sure you are correct, but then I may be wrong again, and if so, any thing I can learn is good.. but the pump itself need s a fixed amperage supply, to start, and run.. voltage changes will control the speed, but amps have to be there, to begin, and continue the process.. DC motors rely on amps to start, and run; As I say, I'm not that well versed, but know what I know, as an engineer.

the ZZR alternator / generator, upgrade, does require a bit of re modding of the system, but, has been done many times, might be good for your needs, but not the "allbeit" of the cure, some wire size changes may be needed, and some semblance of protection to other electrics also.  I picked up a couple off e-bay, and stored them, for low prices when we were discussing this all about 15-17 years ago.  they are still boxed up, never saw the need on either of my C10's for them then, but may break them out someday.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on May 11, 2020, 04:07:12 pm
I think I have the answer for the connector. These are rated for 60 amps and they are not that big.  And I just happen to have a bag of them.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ETROGP4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ETROGP4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

But I still have the problem that the alternator can just stay ahead of the power draw of everything,  If I get stuck in slow traffic and the radiator fan comes on the it will probably drain the battery in a while.

I need to save up and purchase that ZZR1200 alternator. It is rated at 45 amps.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on May 11, 2020, 04:33:59 pm
Ok, Village (electrical) idiot here.
I would have thought the Alt plenty big to add a fuel pump and injectors to your system.
    (Particularly as you are not using all the lights that a stock Connie uses).

Couple of thought's.
5 amps continuously at the fuel pump sounds excessive.
  Is it sized correctly? (Too much fuel flow?)
  Is pressure higher than it needs to be? (Pump dead heading at max pressure?)
   Seems like lower fuel pressures and longer cycle times at the injectors would make the system more tunable and give you a better mixture throughout the cycle.

Is the control system for the Fi system drawing  a lot of power?

Lights; Add; LED's throughout.
                   Wiring system with relays and on/off switch.

Ride safe, Ted
     

Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on May 11, 2020, 05:35:38 pm
Ok, Village (electrical) idiot here.
I would have thought the Alt plenty big to add a fuel pump and injectors to your system.
    (Particularly as you are not using all the lights that a stock Connie uses).

Couple of thought's.
5 amps continuously at the fuel pump sounds excessive.
  Is it sized correctly? (Too much fuel flow?)
  Is pressure higher than it needs to be? (Pump dead heading at max pressure?)
   Seems like lower fuel pressures and longer cycle times at the injectors would make the system more tunable and give you a better mixture throughout the cycle.

Is the control system for the Fi system drawing  a lot of power?

Lights; Add; LED's throughout.
                   Wiring system with relays and on/off switch.

Ride safe, Ted
   

the fuel pump adds as much as a stock headlight does, to the load..  can'r be shortcutted, unless a more efficient pump, (lower inrush amp) is used, but still need supply of like 40 psi to the rail.. I'm not spending the time for free, to research them, but the correlation between peak pipe pressure/fuel pump amp draw/ and delivery, is kind of critical, as dropping pump pressure, via PWM voltage chopping, still places a full amp draw when the pump pulses.. lowering voltage, just slows the motor, and reduces pressure.. it's a coin toss, to regulate pressure, and pulse.. but "inrush" current, when a DC motor spins up, is greater than a constant state DC motor ampacity.  i feel "chopping" actually exacerbates this, making the motor stop, and start, consuming more amps, than running in a constant state... maybe a fuel pressure regulator, set at a point reduced from what is being produced now, "may assist", but during demand periods, may fall short on delivery (based on the flow needs of the injectors).. tough call.  In reality, maybe a higher rated mechanical limiter (as the pump limiter is a spring and poppet based assembly, actually part of the pump output flow path) might maintain pressure better, reducing the load on the pump, to keep pressure up to spec.. I dunno.    LED's, while pretty much efficient, really don't offer much to the C10.. really... they drop the load when running by about 15 %,20% at most... which really is not a lot.. Biggest benefit would be Increasing wire sizes thruout the bike, adding the Free Power Thang from SISF, having a higher amp capacity batt, like an Odyssey, and making sure all connections are brightly cleaned regularly, and proper.. oh, and not running 3 sets of driving lights, and other drains, unless off an aux fusebox, for Farkles like heated clothing, and aux lights.. Bigger wires do make a difference... just saying..

I never had issue with this batt, I did however put foam spacers in the box, so it fit tightly..
https://www.odysseybatteries.com/pc545.htm (https://www.odysseybatteries.com/pc545.htm)



BTW..... Ted... I thought you did the ZZR generator thang, didn't you?  what was the outcome?
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on May 12, 2020, 09:01:01 am
No, I've never done anything with the charging system on any of my C-10's. I've been very fortunate.

I was referring to his fuel line system. {I used to build remote fueling systems for our test cars at Shell}
#1) Some builders put a regulator before the fuel rail (the unused fuel returns to the tank before the regulator or not at all). Using this type, they maintain the fuel rail at a select pressure. (say 40 psi) The problem with this system is the pressure prior to the regulator is higher than the fuel rail pressure all the time (say 80 psi). {draws more amps/fuel got hotter}
#2) Most cars used a system where the regulator is in/after the fuel rail (unused fuel returns to the tank after the regulator) Doing it this way, the entire system never exceeds 40 psi and the pump would doesn't work as hard. {draw's less amps and the fuel remains cooler.}
#3) Later cars went to a return-less system where the pressure is regulated at the fuel pump. {Lowest amp draw of all and coolest fuel}

I'm not familiar with the fuel system on this bike, but I think his first system (on his Honda) was like type #1.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on May 12, 2020, 12:57:31 pm
Attaching a drawing on how my fuel system is plumbed.
My pump is rated to deliver a Flow rate - 135ltr/hr @ 3bar (35 gal/hr @ 45 psi), Max pressure - 8.5bar (125 psi). When connected to 12 volts that is what it will do. what the injectors don't use at 43.psi needs to be rerouted back to the tank.

Regardless where the regulator is placed it will keep the fuel line pressurized at 43 psi and send the rest back to the tank.

In my opinion it does not matter where the regulator is placed. The pump works just as hard to produce its rated flow rate regardless if the excess is relieved before or after the fuel rail.  ( I have seen Kawasaki fuel rails configured both ways)

About the power.
MOB, I tried that trick of quickly switching the key off and back on. The light did go off and the battery charged back up to 13.9 in about 5 seconds.  That tells me that the power to run everything is on the very edge of not being enough, and one more accessory will push it over the edge. I think the coolant fan will drain the battery in a short while.

The headlight  is off a Honda Magna that I am cannibalizing for parts. It pulls 5 amps. The new lamp is rated for 2.5 amps.  LED head lamp is on a UPS truck and should arrive on Wednesday.

I am contemplating getting a smaller fuel pump or doing some electrical changes to lower the power it requires. I am going to do some more thinking on it before I do anything at all.  In the end I may just swap out the alternator for a bigger one and stop worrying about scrimping on power.

In the beginning I never intended to make this bike a daily rider. It was intended to become a trike for my wife but since that didn't pan out I decided to do an EFI project instead and when finished sell it. But....

 I have raised the handle bars , lowered the frame and made a custom seat. I am beginning to like it. Now I can sit on it and get both feet on the ground. I'm not afraid of it any more. And I get a real thrill going through the gears at full throttle. I may just keep it.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on May 13, 2020, 09:36:15 am
Thanks GP. That answers my question.
The regulator you have is a type 2. It controls pressure before the regulator.
  {Your regulator is effectively after the fuel rail {because the line to the fuel rail, is located before the regulator}.

NOTE: Many automobiles have their regulator and return fuel line at the fuel rail itself.
           This location purges air, and prevents vapor lock due to heat build up in the rail.
           I doubt you'll have vapor lock problems on a motorcycle.

A type 1 regulator/system is like the regulator that is used on an air compressor.
It controls pressure after the regulator.
ie; On an air compressor, the tank holds 120 psi, but the air pressure to the hose can be reduced by adjusting the regulator.

At Shell, many of the remote fuel systems we used were type 1.
Due to heat build up and slow response during acceleration's, we changed to type 2 regulators.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on June 02, 2020, 02:50:02 pm
This bike is really fun to ride  (for a little while) ...Maybe it is my small stature but I've lowered  the frame, made a custom seat, and raised the handlebars. After riding around for the past week I say this is the most uncomfortable ride of any bike I have owned.  The  problem is I can't sit up completely. If I straighten my back my arms are stretched as far as possible and that feels dangerous. If I lean forward to get a good grip on the handles after a few miles my hands start to ache because of the weight pushing on the tendon between my thumb and index finger. 

It's sad that I have put all this effort into this bike and find that I can't ride it for any length of time.  Iv'e come to the conclusion that the C10 is just too big a bike for me.

I may execute my original plan and make it into a trike. But while I am waiting for an affordable trike kit to pop up on craigslist I will probably try to sell it.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: sport rider on June 03, 2020, 07:30:56 am
you might consider converting the triples to a standard bar riser where you could use an aftermarket set of bars.  you have a much wider selection of rise and pull-back to make yourself more comfortable.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on June 04, 2020, 09:26:30 am
you might consider converting the triples to a standard bar riser where you could use an aftermarket set of bars.  you have a much wider selection of rise and pull-back to make yourself more comfortable.


where I have the bar now has stretched the brake line to the max. Any higher bar or moving toward the rider is going to require a longer brake line or relocating the hydraulic  manifold on the forks.  More surgery! 

And those risers are not cheap. I'll go to the salvage  yard this weekend and see what I can find.

I have limited time now. My wife has drafted me for a summer project.  Finish the basement!
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: sport rider on June 04, 2020, 02:41:13 pm
ordering longer brake lines is simple.  the part that's problematic is the enrichment cable.  oh wait....you don't have that now, right?  new brake lines and new clutch line.  easy....
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on June 05, 2020, 03:49:51 pm
I hope this is the last hundred buck I have to spend on this project.
I have new bars and pullback raisers on the way. 
I can steal the hydraulic lines off my junk magna. 
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on June 20, 2020, 03:31:56 pm
My pull back risers finally arrived yesterday. (3 weeks)  I will never purchase from that outfit again.
I had to replace the brake and clutch hydraulic lines because the stock ones are too short.
Drilled new holes in the tripple tree to mount the risers.
Had to reroute a couple of harnesses to make them reach the new position of the handles.
In all it took a couple hours.
I took it for a short ride and it made a world of difference. I can sit up erect now. No more hunched over.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on June 21, 2020, 09:44:32 am
Feels like a completely different bike. It handles like my Magna.
Some before and after photos. Look at the angle of my back.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on June 22, 2020, 07:10:19 am
Looks more comfortable for you.
Well done.

I've lost track on the project.
Is it tuned and running correctly now?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on June 22, 2020, 05:50:34 pm
Yes, I went out for an hour today and it is running great. Got home, drank a beer and went out again. I love the way it handles now.  I just need to fix the turn signals.

I need to delete some of my bikes.  I think I will keep this one since I have so much invested in it.   My V-star I will keep forever. That leaves the Magna and my other Connie. 

I'm selling the magna to the salvage yard.
 I'm  putting the other Connie (the one with full dress cowling) on craigslist.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on June 22, 2020, 06:23:09 pm
before you "delete' your other bikes, ride this one on an extended trip, i.e. at least 500 miles, or 2 full tanks of fuel.. not being a party pooper, just giving some sage advice.  stuff happens "on the road", and if it's not stock/easily and easily fixed.... well, bad times and pain are not fun.    but glad you found and made this bike "what you wanted" so far..
When I mounted any of  my bikes, I never even thought "will it get me home, no matter where I go".. I can't say I'd be comfortable with that, in the back of my mind... we all like to experiment, but in the end, reliability and coming home, means a lot.

 :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :hail: :thumbs:
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on August 16, 2020, 12:19:26 pm
Been doing a lot of work finishing my basement so have not had any time to do serious riding until last week.
I have found that at low to medium throttle this bike is full of power and acceleration but if I go to wide open throttle it will bog down and and want to stall until I back off the throttle slightly, Then it takes off like a rocket.
took a lot of data logs and finally can see in the logs what is happening. The MAP pressure has maxed out while the throttle position is still rising. In fact the MAP pressure maxes out at before 50%throttle.

 I am using the speed density method of fuel control which relies on MAP being somewhat linear from idle to WOT and that is mostly the case on single throttle bodies feeding a plenum.  But I have individual throttle bodies and there is not shared plenum to buffer the vacuum.

So I will be switching to alpha-n fuel control which uses the throttle position to determine the engine load and will give me higher resolution on fueling. This should fix the problem at wide open throttle.

You can see in the photo that MAP pressure has maxed out while the throttle is still rising.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: Chrome Megaphone on August 16, 2020, 04:26:08 pm
Very interesting project, I appreciate inventiveness and DIY tech.  8). I've only read the first two pages plus this.  Do you plan on selling kits or releasing instructions to replicate your completed project?  Updating older designs with high efficiency engine management that pushes classics up into the performance realm of late models has been successfully done for autos, I like the prospects.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: Chrome Megaphone on August 16, 2020, 05:01:06 pm
Quote
But I have individual throttle bodies and there is not shared plenum to buffer the vacuum.
Have you thought about taking the signal from a vacuum chamber (plastic bottle) connected to the four manifold boot ports?
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on August 16, 2020, 05:53:50 pm
I have a vacuum canister already and it does slow down the rise in MAP to a degree but not enough.  And even with it,  MAP will reach max (atmosphere ) before the throttle reaches 50%.

For instance if I am  cruising  gingerly at half throttle and in 3rd gear. MAP will  rise to near max even with TPS at 50%. Now if I suddenly want to go WOT and beat the streetlight that just turned yellow....I will get a little burst of fuel due to accelerator enrichment then it will bog down.  I could make the top of fuel table the much richer to compensate but then it would be too rich while cruising at a lower throttle. There is just not enough range in MAP and it is not linear.

I found a your tube video that does a real good job explaining it(better than me)

https://youtu.be/9XvXfX3QhlU (https://youtu.be/9XvXfX3QhlU)

I've already made the changes to the fueling scheme and re-scaled the tuning tables. Problem is, I cant test it right away. Last trip out I was sitting at a stop sign waiting for a gap in traffic when the lower radiator hose decided to explode.  Replacement hoses are on order but by the time they arrive I will be on to my basement project.  Dry wall arrives tomorrow ...darn.

No not planing to sell any kits. Most everything is available online. As far as instructions, every painful step is well documented in an online forum and I made a you-tube history along the way.

https://speeduino.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2555&start=50 (https://speeduino.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2555&start=50)

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9ZAieLe6zon1TuzB_mU4w5h5qqh5WuXQ (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9ZAieLe6zon1TuzB_mU4w5h5qqh5WuXQ)
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on August 16, 2020, 07:24:32 pm
MOB,
I sold one of my magnas and gave the other away to a good home.
Some day when I am not run ragged with other projects I will spruce up my other connie and get it ready to sell.
That will leave me with my V-Star and my EFI C10. 

After by lowering the frame and making a custom lower seat then  adding the pullback risers and Magna handlebar, the EFI C10 handles like a sports bike.  I thought I would miss my magna but I am liking this one better.  It's 30 years old so I hope it holds together a few more years.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on August 19, 2020, 11:26:42 am
man I am pissed and very very sad.
while changing out the coolant hoses I had the tank straddle the frame sideways.
My beautiful tank got dropped on the garage floor. Full tank so it weighs about 50 pounds.
Bounced once and came to rest upside down. Luckily no punctures but the tank is seriously messed up.
A baseball size dent in the left front lobe and a crater in center near the seat.
Really sad to loose all the work I put into it.
Not sure if I should fix it , buy a new one or just live with it.

Anyone?  can dents be filled with bondo ?
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: Chrome Megaphone on August 19, 2020, 03:39:20 pm
I've fixed a dent with Bondo but you have to hand sand down to metal then hand sand the Bondo so you'll need an afternoon and a tube of Ben Gay.
I have a clean 1979 KZ1000L tank, will check fitment if you like.
Sorry to hear of your mishap.  :(
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on August 19, 2020, 05:53:02 pm
Thanks but I am certain it wont fit.
 I'll try my hand at pulling out these dents the best I can and see how it turns out.
I have a history with this tank. Originally I had a mirror finish polished on it but that got destroyed by rust(long story) . Then I painted it metallic carbon. Looked really nice until I got gas on the clear coat before it was cured. Then I painted it Burgundy like it is now. So I was so bummed when it hit the floor.
I found a mint 1979 tanks for $250. Not sure I want to spend another $250 on this bike.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: Chrome Megaphone on August 19, 2020, 07:10:21 pm
Put some propane in it then throw in a match  :banana
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on August 20, 2020, 02:21:50 pm
Great idea. Have you tried that before?  How did it turn out? :cannon:
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on August 20, 2020, 02:49:27 pm
I got to try this.

https://youtu.be/PNtj-B3I6SA?t=87
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: Chrome Megaphone on August 20, 2020, 11:04:25 pm
Maybe just ignore the dent for now and solve that EFI gremlin.
Sorry if you took the joke wrong.   
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on August 21, 2020, 09:39:24 am
No, I knew you were kidding.

Today taking a break from the drywall in the basement and cleaning around the garage.
I hope to have some time this afternoon to download a new tune to the ECU where I swapped out the fueling table for Alpha-N fueling.
 I re-scaled the table to be weighted more on low to mid throttle 1,2,4,8,10...16%  then the last few table look up are at 50-60-80-100%  Maybe it will start?

I ordered an inflatable bladder to  see if I can push the dents out from the inside.  But that's just lipstick for later. I need to get it running again first.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on August 21, 2020, 01:33:21 pm
pick up or make one of these.. works like a charm on that kind of dent...

https://www.harborfreight.com/crossbar-dent-repair-kit-66957.html (https://www.harborfreight.com/crossbar-dent-repair-kit-66957.html)

Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on August 24, 2020, 08:54:18 am
Sorry to hear about the dent/dents?
I like the innertube in the tank idea, but wonder about getting it in the tank/proper location.
Know MOB's tool could be the tool to use too...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on November 02, 2020, 08:06:36 am
I haven not solved the bogging down problem at full throttle fully yet. I changed the fueling from speed density to alpha-n It runs much bette now but still needs to tweaking at high speed.   l i Was getting ready to winterize and when I pulled the radiator cap the rubber seal ripped in half with half stuck to the inside of the filler tube. Damn!  We had some bad weather forecast so I just pulled the bottom radiator hose off and drained all the coolant out.

I will deal with it in the  spring. So now it is in its winter pajamas on the back patio.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on November 02, 2020, 08:35:22 am
GP, haven't heard from you in awhile. Hope your doing ok?
On your bogging at full throttle, I think I recall that you had the bike running fine and something changed?
If so, fuel flow/pressure can be the culprit. Have you confirmed those at high flow rate?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on November 02, 2020, 04:46:36 pm
It was running great up until near full throttle then the O2 sensor read very lean.  If I never go full throttle it performed very well.  But I wanted to be able to twist the throttle full open without it going lean on me. The root cause it that there is not enough vacuum range in the VE table with individual throttle bodies. (my honda didn't have this problem because I was using a manifold)  One work around was to tie the vacuum line from all the throttle bodies and connect them to a small vacuum  canister. That helped a lot but the problem still occurred if I twisted the throttle to quickly.

That is why I switched to alpha-n fueling which uses the throttle position instead of manifold vacuum.  I was getting close to getting the tune right when I had to set the project aside and construct an apartment for my daughter in the basement. That work is done and I am waiting for the certificate of occupancy from the town government.  By that time cold weather hit so I parked in on the patio and put its winter pajamas on it.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on November 03, 2020, 08:13:15 am
It's a shame that you have to wait out the winter. But understood.

Question; Are you now using real Fi Throttle Bodies? (I thought you were using Connie carbs)
The reason I ask is, Low vacuum should momentarily reduce fuel flow and regulate the rate that flow increases {to match throttle position and engine need}. I suspect that "if" you could have kept the throttle slide's working, you would have maintained a better vacuum curve as you opened the throttle.
{ie; as the RPM's increased the air velocity would control the rate the slide lifted. The slides would give some vacuum control/signal as they wouldn't fully lift until RPM's increase.}

Your far ahead of me in programming etc. {My mind is more mechanical than digital}
I'm just offering this thought as I think using only a TPS will remove the effect of engine load.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on November 04, 2020, 09:29:45 pm
 I guess you missed my video. https://youtu.be/nFgQnJeQ0mM

Yes I am using real throttle bodies off of a Z1000. And they were designed to get around this problem. They had secondary throttle plates that opened slowly.   The were driven by a stepper motor under ECU control. I had no way to control them so i removed them. Now I have straight throttle bodies. The original using old carbs a throttle bodies had the same problem but not  as bad.

Just getting interested in bikes again since I have finished the basement.  So this afternoon I put the battery charger on it and put antifreeze in. I got a replacement for the radiator cap I tore up. So tomorrow I will drive it into the garage so I can play with something this winter.

BTW since I am finished with the basement I had several left over cabinets and rather than sell them on craigs list I repurposed them for my garage work bench. Turned out great. I will be tearing out the old bench tomorrow.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on November 05, 2020, 09:06:25 am
Shop looks great.

"OOps", I had forgotten you went to TB's and motorcycle injectors.
I now remember the video/throttle body addition.
My excuse; My memory sux..  :doh:

Final thought; I suspect the Z-1000 Throttle Bodie ID's are larger then the ZG-1000 venturi size?
If so, {only if you still need some type of restriction} you could re-install the secondary throttle plates ands lock them at a position to add some slight restriction?   (mebbe 3/4 to 7/8 open?)

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on November 15, 2020, 09:17:24 pm
That's a good Idea but the shaft is just long enough for the original configuration. Remember I widened these by 13 mm in the center to fit a zg1000.  I guess I could cut the shaft in two and use the two  halves separately ,.if I still had it! I think it went into the trash bin months ago. I may be able to 3D print something to do it.  But not sure it will help. Its too cold to go for tuning ride so any tuning on this will wait till next spring.

Meanwhile..
Thinking ahead to my next idea. converting my other connie over to EFI. I see the throttle bodies from a ZG1400 will almost fit a ZG1000. I think that there is maybe an eighth of an inch difference between the throttle bodies and the head ports. I think that may  be easier to modify than widening the throttle bodies off a Z1000.
Just about talked myself into it.

I have finished the basement and my daughter has moved in so now I need something to keep me occupied this winter.
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: connie_rider on November 16, 2020, 07:10:06 am
Before you go that route, check the throat sizes  of the 2.
The TB's for the 1400 may be too big.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: C10 EFI Project
Post by: gpineau on November 17, 2020, 03:15:54 pm
It has been sitting in the back yard under wraps for 2 years. I needed to move it to garage for my winter project.
I thought this would take all day.. But  am surprised.  I took my time, drained the tank, drained the bowls, added fresh gas, dropped in a fresh battery and after 10 seconds of cranking.. te voilà.  It started. I took it for a spin down the block and then parked it in the garage next to its cousin.

Now I am not sure how to proceed. I am torn between scavenging the old naked café racer to convert Connie over to EFI then sell it for scrap. Or I can just start from scratch on the Connie and buy all new stuff for the conversion. That way I will have a good bike to sell when I am finished.  What to do? 
But I do intend to exchange the shock rocker to lower the Connie an inch or so.