Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => Accessories and Modifications - C10 => Topic started by: Motor Head on November 06, 2011, 10:47:20 am

Title: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 06, 2011, 10:47:20 am
 I see bolt on Ignition advancers, also of course you can perform a modification to your stock one. Just wondering if anyone has used the bolt on ones, how did it perform on your bike? Also the scenario, altitude, stock or modified etc. Thanks.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: westkyguy on November 06, 2011, 11:03:53 am
 Yeah, couldn't really tell any difference. Not like with the stick coils.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 06, 2011, 11:09:14 am
westkyguy:
You went COP, Coil On Plug and got a gain? Did you have aged stock coils, or bad wires? Did you test them before replacement? I could see a difference for degraded parts for sure. Also when you wired up, did you use the same power circuit, or add a relay? Sometimes the difference in voltage supplied to the coils is the gain. Having voltage loss in the electrical, is a problem on many bikes.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Outback_Jon on November 06, 2011, 11:17:02 am
There's a fellow on here (T Cro) who I'm sure will be along shortly.  He sells a kit to convert over to the stick coils.  They're on my list of mods I want to do.  (Soon!)

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=61.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=61.0)

And I'm sure Steve In Sunny Florida will be along shortly to tell you how the ignition advancers aren't worth your $$.  Seems from most folks experience that I've heard around here, the aftermarket advancers don't do anything worthwhile on these engines.

There are however, plenty of other options.  Like Steve's advanced cam sprockets.  Which advance the exhaust cams and improve the midrange of the bike.  (Also on my short list)

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=364.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=364.0)
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 06, 2011, 11:23:45 am
 Already read about the "Kit" for the sticks. I've replaced so many COP Coils that they don't thrill me, sorry.
 Also the Cam Sprockets, Cams, Jet Kits, Overflow tubes, etc, on SISF web site.
 Baffelectomy and the other tid bits. Couldn't find much on the advance Rotors though.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Outback_Jon on November 06, 2011, 12:22:15 pm
Already read about the "Kit" for the sticks. I've replaced so many COP Coils that they don't thrill me, sorry.
 Also the Cam Sprockets, Cams, Jet Kits, Overflow tubes, etc, on SISF web site.
 Baffelectomy and the other tid bits. Couldn't find much on the advance Rotors though.
Unfortunately, this site crashed some months ago and took a lot of information with it.  It just hasn't been rehashed yet.  But this thread will probably start a rehashing.   :D

The biggest advantage (in my opinion) to the stick coils on these bikes is making the valve adjustments easier.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 06, 2011, 12:26:44 pm
 Yes I saw where the Forum Tanked.
 There is a lot of the same/ similar info on the COG Forum. Been lurking/ reading posts and Info once I saw the bike up for sale. Trying to see what the good and bad info on the model was. I have found both sites very helpful.
 I found the Valve adjustment a piece of cake, so easy to do. But that's me, been wrenching a very long time.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 06, 2011, 12:47:49 pm
Personally I think the bike would be fine with 38-40* total IF it could be delayed to finish around 4500 rpm or so. Currently it's 10 initial and 25 electronically advanced, total 35* @ 3500. Since the advance plate ads to  the initial, +4* gets you 39* @ 3500, which IMO is to much, as detonation will result at lower rpms unless higher octane is used.  I tried it way back when , but found other methods to increase the low rpm cylinder pressure, namely by re-timing the Ex cam. HTH, Steve
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 06, 2011, 12:55:04 pm
Yes dialing in the cam for more cylinder pressure, that would be a help at this altitude especially. The timing increase, is overall like you stated. Really a programmable box is the way to go instead of plopping money on a Rotor. But $$$$$.
Re setting the cam timing might be something for the colder months, over the winter. We got some 20 below last year, not for long though, but the snow was around for quite awhile for here.
 You have some great products and info on your site, SISF  ;)
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: westkyguy on November 07, 2011, 04:28:07 am
westkyguy:
You went COP, Coil On Plug and got a gain? Did you have aged stock coils, or bad wires? Did you test them before replacement? I could see a difference for degraded parts for sure. Also when you wired up, did you use the same power circuit, or add a relay? Sometimes the difference in voltage supplied to the coils is the gain. Having voltage loss in the electrical, is a problem on many bikes.

 Yeah, bought one of TCros kits that some guy on here decided not to use. Put it on my 02 that has about 29k on it, lights off instantly and much smoother idle. Put in platinum plugs gapped to .050 and gas mileage went up about 2-3 mpg.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 07, 2011, 06:28:00 am
westkyguy:
 Thanks for the reply/ Info. Just wondering, have you done any research into those coils, per part # to see if there are Known issues?
 The COP is a good Technology, but sadly, like a lot of components these days, longevity can certainly be an issue.
 On some of the systems coil failure is pretty high, but then such can be said for some of the coil Packs.
 I think if I was using COP I would have a spare with me, for sure on any longer trips, or a ride into the mountains.
 There are certainly some really good twin fire coils, that are extremely reliable out there. I have Accel Coils on my KZ1000, and noticed the same, starts better, runs better, etc.
 Remember, those COP systems put the coil right on the head=Heat. What causes the most electrical component failures? Heat.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: T Cro ® on November 07, 2011, 02:50:58 pm
Have sold at least 200 sets in the last two years with only one coil known to gave shown a failure. Everyone who has bought my kits knows that I not only sell stick coils, run stick coils, and stand behind what I sell 110 %
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: jim snyder on November 08, 2011, 07:27:20 am
Have sold at least 200 sets in the last two years with only one coil known to gave shown a failure. Everyone who has bought my kits knows that I not only sell stick coils, run stick coils, and stand behind what I sell 110 %

I'll 2nd that. T Cro's coils are top notch items. There are certain things you don't do:

(1) Never tug on Supermans Cape
(2) Never question T Cro when it comes to coils
(3) Never question Steve in Florida when it comes to carbs or jetting or cams
(4) Never question me when it comes to exhaust.

If you follow these 4 simple guidelines you will never go wrong.   
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: T Cro ® on November 08, 2011, 09:22:54 am
I'll 2nd that. T Cro's coils are top notch items. There are certain things you don't do:
(2) Never question T Cro when it comes to coils

Or Shift Linkage Kits, Rear Rocker/Dog Leg Bushings...... giggle  ;)
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 08, 2011, 10:04:21 am
 Ok as the OP here, I plainly asked for Igniton Advancer Feedback.
 Now its just a waste of breath.
 Looks like I've Angered the Forum "GODS"
 Go ahead Bash away,  It won't change the fact of this thread became Off topic.
 But if you want, go ahead ride it boy's!!!
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Uglydog56 on November 08, 2011, 10:17:57 am
I started out on a HawkGT.  There was an ignition advancer available for it; dyno testing revealed no gains in horsepower.
After that I had an SV650.  There was an ignition advancer available for it; dyno testing revealed no gains in horsepower.
Now I have a Concours.  There is an ignition advancer available for it; dyno testing reveals no gains in horsepower.
My friend Rick ran several R6's as track-only bikes.  He tried ignition advancers on a couple of them to get more midrange off the corner, there was no noticeable change in lap times.

While this is just anecdotal data at best (none of these dyno tests were performed on my bike, just by fellow enthusiasts); I see a trend here regarding ignition advancers.
Does that answer your question?
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: T Cro ® on November 08, 2011, 11:07:03 am
Ok as the OP here, I plainly asked for Igniton Advancer Feedback.
 Now its just a waste of breath.
 Looks like I've Angered the Forum "GODS"
 Go ahead Bash away,  It won't change the fact of this thread became Off topic.
 But if you want, go ahead ride it boy's!!!

Angered the Forum "GODS" you say? No not really; perhaps slightly annoyed that in the very first reply to your question was a definitive answer of "Yeah, couldn't really tell any difference. Not like with the stick coils" To which several more posters chimed in with what helpful info they could offer about the advance plate as well numerous other mods which included the stick coils. The other mods as well the advance plate were discussed freely by you and others but  it seems that the mere mention of stick coils is steering your thread off topic....

In closing I don't see the thread as anything to ride as it is dead in the water due to one thing a negative attitude.

Good day...
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 08, 2011, 11:27:52 am
I started out on a HawkGT.  There was an ignition advancer available for it; dyno testing revealed no gains in horsepower.
After that I had an SV650.  There was an ignition advancer available for it; dyno testing revealed no gains in horsepower.
Now I have a Concours.  There is an ignition advancer available for it; dyno testing reveals no gains in horsepower.
My friend Rick ran several R6's as track-only bikes.  He tried ignition advancers on a couple of them to get more midrange off the corner, there was no noticeable change in lap times.

While this is just anecdotal data at best (none of these dyno tests were performed on my bike, just by fellow enthusiasts); I see a trend here regarding ignition advancers.
Does that answer your question?

 Yes this is the feedback info I would like, and appreciate your input.
 I would also like input from anyone who has done an Increase of timing advance and Tracked Fuel mileage both before and after. Doesn't have to be a bolt on Rotor, could ma just a Mod. Or the big buck replacement programmable box.
It is all taken in and absorbed, then maybe and maybe not, as to do anything at all. But good info, that's the quest.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: T Cro ® on November 08, 2011, 11:41:36 am
BTW While I'm not the first I am one of the few who have tried the advance plate and still run the advance plate simply cause I'm too lazy to see what the bike feels like today without it as it's been in there a long time. Long before Steve came out with the re-drilled exhaust sprocket which I do have as well as a DJ Jet kit with a K&N filter and free flowing exhaust. I like the way my engine runs and have no knock or ping but I'll honestly say that I do not recall much if any difference it made other than a tad better low end response. I don't track my MPG but in town it sucks as I expect it to but on the long stretch I get onto the mid 40's or a touch better.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 08, 2011, 12:10:51 pm
BTW While I'm not the first I am one of the few who have tried the advance plate and still run the advance plate simply cause I'm too lazy to see what the bike feels like today without it as it's been in there a long time. Long before Steve came out with the re-drilled exhaust sprocket which I do have as well as a DJ Jet kit with a K&N filter and free flowing exhaust. I like the way my engine runs and have no knock or ping but I'll honestly say that I do not recall much if any difference it made other than a tad better low end response. I don't track my MPG but in town it sucks as I expect it to but on the long stretch I get onto the mid 40's or a touch better.

 Is that with the +2 or +4, if you could clarify. I would suspect the +4. Thanks.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: T Cro ® on November 08, 2011, 01:10:02 pm
Mine is the +4 from Factory. Or is it Factory Pro Racibg? Same company that makes shift kits, jet kilts, and other go fast racing parts.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: xjs36uk on November 10, 2011, 06:54:29 am
One of the members of the GPZ900R club in the UK makes and sells 4 degree ignition advancers for £20 each, a lot of club members have bought these and all bar one report noticeable improvements in throttle response and mid-range, whilst sacrificing a small amount of top end. (This of course relates to the GPZ900R/Ninja 900R)

The thing to bear in mind if doing this conversion is fuel quality, a good quality fuel will be quite happy with 4 degrees advance, but as fuel quality can be unreliable from one vendor to the next it may be best to stick with the standard unless you are happy with the quality of your fuel.

I personally have not done this conversion as I am not overly confident in the quality of european fuel sold outside of Germany. (and I like my top end more than midrange).
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 10, 2011, 07:07:22 am
xjs36uk,
Thanks for you input.
One of the Products I've Looked at is from APE. Is is an adjustable/ slotted advancer. Looks like the high quality you expect from APE, but I've also looked into some Programmable boxes. All just Info gathering at this point. I also found where  removing .032" from the right side of the slot on the advancer will show as +4 when tightened in the new location. Sock advancers are a dime a dozen, so if you want to get one, modify/ try your not out of pocket much.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 10, 2011, 07:23:55 am
xjs36uk,
Thanks for you input.
One of the Products I've Looked at is from APE. Is is an adjustable/ slotted advancer. Looks like the high quality you expect from APE, but I've also looked into some Programmable boxes. All just Info gathering at this point. I also found where  removing .032" from the right side of the slot on the advancer will show as +4 when tightened in the new location. Sock advancers are a dime a dozen, so if you want to get one, modify/ try your not out of pocket much.

motorhead, do what you want, that's how we learn, but having BTDT, I can say if you're looking for power either pony up for a dyna with different curves, or look / spend your money elsewhere. I personally haven't done the dyna, so there may not be much to gain there, either. Keep in mind that the later ignitions incorporate ktric or other methods to effectively advance timing based on throttle position, so they can pump in timing under light throttle that will help fuel economy, then instantly drop back to the base timing by rpm for more power when the throttle is cranked on. This is a much better approach than a static ign advance. I'm not saying that some advance may not help at high rpm, I just haven't seen it. BTW, if you're going to get serious, get to know a good dyno operator, you're going to need him... Steve
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 10, 2011, 07:34:53 am
Steve in Sunny Fla,
I don't think I need to get to carried away. Big bucks on this bike, its not nice enough for starters. A few degrees either way with the timing, that's easy. Dyno, well that would be nice, no access at the moment. But I know where in the area to go if needed. Probably be the Butt Dyno for now.
 The old KZ was easier with its springs and weights for a change in the curve. But then there is maintenance on that also.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 10, 2011, 08:40:56 am
The butt dyno isn't going to work perfectly in this scenario. Reason being that it will feel sharper to light throttle at low rpm, but that doesn't mean it's best under heavier accelleration all the way through the rpm's. The light throttle response increase would be just like adding the ktric, or in old-school automotive tech, the vacuum advance. I know you know that to much advance is a bad thing. Over on zrxoa, there's multitudes of dyno runs on the zrx's that show the bikes lost top end HP with advanced plates. I try to deal in real world increases, not placebo effects, so I personally have not run advanced plates once I determined that it wasn't helping anything. JMO,  Steve
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 10, 2011, 08:56:59 am
Steve in Sunny Fla,
Well you see the loss of Top End isn't a worry. I  don't want a bike that revs out and screams. These Bikes seem to run good in the lower RPM range as designed. I would just like to see an Increase in Fuel Mileage more than any other thing. But that said, a power gain in the low/Mid range would also be OK. The old Air Cooled KZ Stock curve is from 10-45 degrees. This you probably already know. I shortened the total on it, to 36 as that motor will see 8500 R's, But left the Initial at 10. The old KZ has about the same HP rating as the C10, but more pull in the Top. Still it is only a Fun occasional high pull. Mostly gets shifted at 5K or less, and run at 4K on the highway. I can get 50mpg on the old KZ, freeway and 65mph.
 Most of my riding is a quite an elevation, with a loss in cylinder pressure. So an increase in overall advance, at this altitude should be fine., and help the C10. First to get some mileage documentation. Then I might turn it up a couple and recheck.

 By the way your input IS appreciated, as you seem to be the fellow with the Tuning Lab.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: jklhill on November 10, 2011, 01:42:03 pm
Save up and get Steve's 2 Minute Mod Jet Kit and Exhaust Sprocket for $150. You'll be glad you did.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: SteveJ. on November 10, 2011, 09:12:16 pm
Save up and get Steve's 2 Minute Mod Jet Kit and Exhaust Sprocket for $150. You'll be glad you did.
For that $150, you'll get a lot of bang for the buck. The cam sprocket builds up cylinder pressures quite nicely in the low and mid range, the jet kit makes normal throttle openings feel more spirited, without being too abrupt. You can really feel the difference from a stock bike. Nice low buck way to get real improvement on both the butt and regular dyno. My cams were getting to look kinda nasty at about 140k miles, so I put in one of the initial sets of SiSF's torque cams. These build even more cyl pressure and made the bike "come alive" in normal part throttle acceleration. More $$, better results. :thumbs: (but not that much more)

On topic. I also had ground that plate for the advance, I put it back to stock. I get about 39 mpg commuting on two lane road for 12 miles, two traffic lights, about 7-8 corners, speed limit 45-55, which I routinely exceed, driven in a more spirited(sometimes much more) manner on the way home in daylight, more conservative in the morning darkness. I'll also add that there is a lot of junk hanging on my bike, two sets of driving lights(I like to see in the dark :thumbs: ) tip over bars. and a big old 26" Cee Bailey shield, all contributing to extra drag.  Running a 110/80zr18 PR3 radial up front, 160/80/16 Pilot GT bias in the rear. Hope this all helps.

Disclaimer: I've known SiSF personally for about 5 years. A decent human being that knows his stuff. We are hooking up Saturday morning to go here: 

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=4834.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=4834.0)

BTW Motor Head, welcome to this place. A new person with a handle like that is a good thing. The more people thinking about stuff, the more stuff gets better. Hope to meet up with you some day.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 11, 2011, 06:12:32 am
SteveJ,
 That's some good info there. I assume that as you had put you Ignition timing back to stock, that you had issues? Your place is down low near Sea Level?
 Loss of cylinder pressure is a problem at this altitude. It has a history of Turbo Charging, still popular, but not like years ago. Modern engines of course make much more power than the older stuff.
 When I was in the Valve adjustment part of the Initial maintenance, I took note of the cam chain layout. Unlike my KZ the ZG has a much easier set up to Degree the cams. The KZ has a slipper block for the top chain guide, in the valve cover, once the valve cover is removed, then no chain tension etc. A tool to mimic the valve cover needs to be installed.
 More cylinder pressure is a good thing, especially up here.  If I reset the ZG cam timing, and want to re-jet, etc, I have that capability.  But unlike my younger years when Gas was cheap, I don't want to drop the mileage, I want to increase it, if possible.
 Performance of the ZG is already decent, while more, as a rule is always fun, where do you stop?
 This particular bike is not going to be a Crotch Rocket bike, as long as I own it.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 11, 2011, 06:34:08 am
 Actually I've found a Programmable Box at what I consider a very reasonable price. Which I may pursue. About $100 + Freight.

 Programmable High Energy Ignition System
 The system can be used simply to intercept and modify the factory ignition timing or turned into a stand alone ignition system with remapped timing, electronic coil control and anti-knock sensing. The unit will trigger from a range of sources including points, Hall effect sensors, optical sensors, or the 5 volt signal from the car's ECU. Timing can be mapped against engine load and RPM and adjusted in step as small as 0.5°.
Features:
> Timing retard & advance over a wide range
> Suitable for single coil systems
> Dwell adjustment
> Single or dual mapping ranges
> Two de-bounce settings
> Max & min RPM adjustment
> Suits 1 to 12 cylinder four stroke engines and 1 to 6 cylinder two stroke engines
> Optional knock sensing & correction



 But first the Stats have to be gathered as to what mileage I'm getting now. That might take quite a while with winter coming.
 Your Smackdown at the shack sounds like fun, but I can't make that. I've never even been to that part of the USA.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: roger dodger on November 11, 2011, 08:11:59 am
Motor, I hesitate to tell you what works best, but the last 3 pages tried.

I had a V/H 5' advance and SISF talked me out of it WHEN I installed his exhaust cam instead. I can tell you Connie went from mildly zippy to noticably more TORQUEY!!!  This $40 is the best bang for your buck, then the jet kit if you want more input to how you are running (@ altitude).

Don't spend all your time (and $$$) guessing what might work, listen to those that have MADE it work....and enjoy the ride! ;)

Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 11, 2011, 08:50:35 am

 More cylinder pressure is a good thing, especially up here.  If I reset the ZG cam timing, and want to re-jet, etc, I have that capability.  But unlike my younger years when Gas was cheap, I don't want to drop the mileage, I want to increase it, if possible.


1) why would re-jetting cause in loss of fuel economy if it's properly engineered? I think most guys running my kits get better economy, particularly at elevation

2) what altitude are you at? I can see your point on increasing the timing at high altitude, but I think getting the jetting done first is the more appropriate way to go. As you have stock jetting, the richness will cover up some overly advanced timing and suppress detonation. Get the jetting right then try to dial in some timing, that would be my approach. you may find the economy increases and performance you're looking for. Stock connies are jetted rich at sea level, so you know what happens at altitude... Steve
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 11, 2011, 08:54:02 am
 Yes the Jetting is being addressed. Comes off choke pretty quick even at 40F. 6200" is the house, and all the fun happens up hill from here, to 10K. So 7500+ mostly.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: AZBiker on November 11, 2011, 10:55:15 pm
Yes the Jetting is being addressed. Comes off choke pretty quick even at 40F. 6200" is the house, and all the fun happens up hill from here, to 10K. So 7500+ mostly.

I'm interested too.  I live at 5000' but the good roads by my house go up to 7,000'.  I barely had to use the choke on my A8L even when I lived at 1100'.

My current jetting is stock Kalifornia--135 main, 38 pilot.  FM says I can go down to 122/35.  Bike will also be deKalifornicated and the CA emissions equipment either thrown in the trash where it belongs or given away for shipping cost.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 12, 2011, 07:46:03 am
AZBiker,
 I posted some info in your thread on Hi-Altitude Jetting.
 Once I get some more miles on this bike, which is hard in the weather coming, I'll post up some info. Maybe good, or maybe not, but I'll add changes I make.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: connie_rider on November 12, 2011, 09:16:11 am
MH you sound pretty knowledgable. Your inputs ino the discussions will be interesting.

I've looked into the advance plate. Was always told that it was not worthwhile. Your box sounds interesting!

Now, getting off the original subject again,,,,,,,,,,

I'm a flatlander. (Houston) Made 2 trips to Colorado with my 86. The first trip it was waay down on power. Second trip I (guessed on jett sizes)  and leaned out the Jetting. It made a big difference. Plus my mileage was the best I  had ever gotten.
BUT, when I returned home it was BAAAD!  Had to rejett richer.

Bottom line, be careful that you don't go too lean if you plan to ride other area's.

NOTE: My lean jetting "might" have worked at home if I had known about Steves original 2 min mod.
BUT NO ONE ever considered restricting the intake until he came up with the idea....
(you might be able to jett lean for Hi Altitude and add restricter when you go down to the flatlands....)

Ride safe, Ted

Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 12, 2011, 09:25:13 am
connie_rider,
Yes like a lot of things the Jetting for a certain situation, then it changing, will put you well out of those Tuned parameters.
There are Altitude Compensators on Many Old Carburetor Cars, Snow Mobiles etc.  This a possibility, but I have not tried this on this bike/ CVK carb. Like you say, if you set it for say 7K' and go down hill, probably 2K and below, you will be to lean. A quick change main jet plug in the Float bowl, and an Adjustable Needle are two things to consider.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: connie_rider on November 12, 2011, 09:59:08 am


You mentioned a High Altitude Jetting discussion. Should we move this to that discussion? If so, just say so?

Until then. My guess is that you will have to find jetting that is the best for both worlds. I clearly jetted too lean when I did mine. Plus rejetting is a heck of a lot of work to do if you change altitudes a lot.
Soo,,,, my thought was (you might be able to jett lean for Hi Altitude and add restricter when you go down to the flatlands....)

Is this a viable solution?
 By the way, Steve join in with your thoughts.
    Have you already built a 2 min kit for altitude and do you recommend changing restriction if you use that kit at lower altuitudes?


Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 12, 2011, 10:20:03 am
connie_rider,
 The fellow who is AZBiker has a High Altitude thread. Maybe this could go there? he would maybe benefit from some of the input from everyone. I made 1 post there already.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: connie_rider on November 12, 2011, 01:38:27 pm
Agreed.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: jim snyder on November 12, 2011, 06:20:40 pm
You mentioned a High Altitude Jetting discussion. Should we move this to that discussion? If so, just say so?

Until then. My guess is that you will have to find jetting that is the best for both worlds. I clearly jetted too lean when I did mine. Plus rejetting is a heck of a lot of work to do if you change altitudes a lot.
Soo,,,, my thought was (you might be able to jett lean for Hi Altitude and add restricter when you go down to the flatlands....)

Is this a viable solution?
 By the way, Steve join in with your thoughts.
    Have you already built a 2 min kit for altitude and do you recommend changing restriction if you use that kit at lower altuitudes?


Ride safe, Ted

Heres where my adjustable intake plate would come in handy in conjunction with Steve's 2 min jetting.
If you knew where to set the air intake at high altitude and where to set it for lower ones, you could
mark the plate with a sharpie and simply move it to the desired location needed for the specific altitude.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: AZBiker on November 12, 2011, 09:39:56 pm
Heres where my adjustable intake plate would come in handy in conjunction with Steve's 2 min jetting.
If you knew where to set the air intake at high altitude and where to set it for lower ones, you could
mark the plate with a sharpie and simply move it to the desired location needed for the specific altitude.

Love your 4-1 pipe.  I used to have an old-school yosh can on my GPz750 lo these many years ago.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 15, 2011, 08:40:36 pm
 Just did the 4 degree addition to the timing rotor/ curve. Set to 14 Initial and 39 total. Sounds good, now a couple of rides before any thing else gets changed.
 First documented 5 Gallons= 46mpg.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 22, 2011, 08:27:44 am
 I did 1 ride of about 150mi the other day. So far the +4 is good. I could feel the difference in how much easier the motor pulls throughout the RPM range. While I haven't used enough gas to refuel, the gauge seems to have stayed a lot closer to Full than before. But that's just a guess. I did several WOT runs up through the 1,2,3 gears and all the way to redline it pulls stronger.
 One of these winter days I'll degree the cams, and with that I will do a Positive Stop, to find true TDC to see if the Factory case/ Rotor marks were indeed correct.  Weather permitting I'll get some more rides, and mileage figures.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 22, 2011, 02:21:11 pm
I've degreed several sets of cams, and have found the factory rotor marks to be spot on so far. Japanese engines, in general, have always impressed me more than any others as far as thier control of tolerances. Steve
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 23, 2011, 07:11:37 am
 Just Standard procedure to verify TDC, to set up the pointer for the Degree Wheel. Then a quick verification of the OEM marks.
 Then also another Mark Added to the OEM Rotor For Full Advance, then Stamped with the #.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: connie_rider on November 23, 2011, 07:47:24 am
Ok, have questions. Earlier you said that you (did the 4 degree addition to the timing rotor/ curve).

From that I assume you cut 4*off the back of the slot on the rotor? (to advance the rotor)

That would make all the (rotor) timing marks off  by 4*. (Correct)??

So, when you degree the cams;
   will you redo all the marks and numbers on the rotor itself
   or will you add a mark elsewhere to align the original rotor marks with?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 23, 2011, 10:06:04 am
Ok, have questions. Earlier you said that you (did the 4 degree addition to the timing rotor/ curve).

From that I assume you cut 4*off the back of the slot on the rotor? (to advance the rotor)

That would make all the (rotor) timing marks off  by 4*. (Correct)??

So, when you degree the cams;
   will you redo all the marks and numbers on the rotor itself
   or will you add a mark elsewhere to align the original rotor marks with?

Ride safe, Ted

 Yes when you move the Notch for the locating pin over, it now is going to rotate over, against the normal direction of engine travel= Advance. this makes the factory marks move, since you're moving the Rotor on the pin. Using a Degree Wheel or Protractor, angle finder etc. It is easy to scribe another set of marks. I did a White Paint set. Once TDC is Verified, then permanent marks can/ will be made. Also the slop in the Pin Notch can be eliminated if so desired at that time.
 A stock Rotor can be purchased if desired to re-set back. Also on Ebay there are Rotors Real reasonable, with a gasket, Like $45 shipped. Search for a Timing Rotor for a ZL, and ELS +4 should show up.
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 24, 2011, 06:25:18 am
MH, do you have any idea of the LC's you're going to dial in to? What are you targeting, lower end or higher rpms? If higher R's you may want to look at a set of zx900 or zx1000 cams from 84 to 87. They'll get you 10hp or so, and start outpulling stockers from 7000rpm up. Steve
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Motor Head on November 24, 2011, 05:20:40 pm
 More Mid range if there is got to be a target zone to hit. Not really interested in spinning it hard, just an occasional thrill.
 No cam change for this bike is in its future. But I am willing to listen to suggestions since you are the experienced hand with these motors, and have Dyno figures to back the Info up.
 The bike is running great for such a cheap deal. I have been still getting about 43-44 consistently, and figure with out some Altitude jetting it won't change, unless I keep out of the throttle. I actually had a Very close call today with the Sheriff. Luckily only a warning. What do you do when the sign says 40, but the bike says 60 is about right?
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: roger dodger on November 25, 2011, 09:34:13 am
go 80 ;)
Title: Re: +2 or +4 degree Ignition Rotors, Anybody bolted one on? What's Your results?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 25, 2011, 05:59:51 pm
MH, I kinda need to go easy here... I've been experimenting with connies like a madman for coming up on 7 years, and have tried / done all the typical hotrodding stuff - the stuff you're just starting into doing. I don't want to suppress your affinity to experiment and learn as I did, as that's kinda part of our DNA, to take stuff apart and see how it works. If I come off (as I may have already been) as a know it all, it's just going to agitate you, which isn't my intent. That said, I'll offer some info here or there, but basically try not to tell you "how the movie ends" and ruin it for you. with that in mind, I can say this on dialing in the stock cams for midrange - IMO the best midrange doesn't come from any dial in on the stock cams. You definitely can sharpen things here and there with dial in, but the REALLY BIG difference in midrange IMO wasn't borne from cam dial ins.  HTH, Steve