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Mish mash => Open Forum => Topic started by: Bosco on June 28, 2012, 10:03:06 am

Title: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Bosco on June 28, 2012, 10:03:06 am
Now that Obama care is "constitutional" (I guess it's not my constitution anymore) I am thinking of cancelling my health insurance now.

Here is my reasoning:

I pay $1650 per month for me (57) my wife(57) and one son(22). As of 2014, based on my income, we can opt into the state’s exchange and have a maximum "Annual" premium of just $5700, or $475 monthly.

That is a lot of money I could save over the next year and a half. That could be a lot of farkles. I figure if I get sick I can just sign up then.

Here is a link for the premium calculator: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/what-health-bill-means-for-you/# (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/what-health-bill-means-for-you/#)
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: gPink on June 28, 2012, 10:19:12 am
The fed gov, as it is now constituted, will force the end of the private insurance market.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Strawboss on June 28, 2012, 10:22:41 am
I'd wait a bit.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Awaz on June 28, 2012, 10:32:11 am
Now that Obama care is "constitutional" (I guess it's not my constitution anymore) I am thinking of cancelling my health insurance now.


I have not following this all that closely. For now, I will stick with private insurer through work as I am not sure of service from a gov offering. But out of curiosity, are you referring to the clause to force anyone to take insurance as unconstitutional or the fact that they are offering a gov option?
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Bosco on June 28, 2012, 11:00:07 am
I have not following this all that closely. For now, I will stick with private insurer through work as I am not sure of service from a gov offering. But out of curiosity, are you referring to the clause to force anyone to take insurance as unconstitutional or the fact that they are offering a gov option?


I currently pay $1650 per month for my health insurance. Based on my income and the calculator (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/what-health-bill-means-for-you/# (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/what-health-bill-means-for-you/#)) I can get health insurance through the state for about $475 monthly in 2014. I have not until now stopped the very expensive and almost unaffordable health insurance because of a preexisting condition from a long time ago. But now, I can stop the health insurance and not be worried about the preexisting condition.

I could buy a lot of farkles with that money I am paying monthly to the health insurance company.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on June 28, 2012, 11:07:44 am
I don't understand (a bit thick sometimes).  Are you saying the new laws will help your situation?  In my case, I don't know yet how it will affect me but it should help my daughter tremendously with her premiums.  Her employer does not offer health benefits so she pays out of her own pocket.  Based on the calculator I think she'll be better off.  What's the down side of this?
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Mal on June 28, 2012, 11:25:27 am
I don't understand (a bit thick sometimes).  Are you saying the new laws will help your situation?  In my case, I don't know yet how it will affect me but it should help my daughter tremendously with her premiums.  Her employer does not offer health benefits so she pays out of her own pocket.  Based on the calculator I think she'll be better off.  What's the down side of this?

As with most things, you can have something cheap, you can have it fast, or you can have quality, but you only get to chose two of the three...

If socialized healthcare anywhere else is an example you can expect rationing, long wait times and a severe drop in quality... which is why most of the European countries are starting to swing toward free market healthcare.

As far as dropping your private insurance, you might want to wait until after November. If the GOP doesn't win, then I would go ahead and enlist in the govt option...


Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Bosco on June 28, 2012, 11:28:05 am
I don't understand (a bit thick sometimes).  Are you saying the new laws will help your situation?  In my case, I don't know yet how it will affect me but it should help my daughter tremendously with her premiums.  Her employer does not offer health benefits so she pays out of her own pocket.  Based on the calculator I think she'll be better off.  What's the down side of this?

What I am saying is:

Right now I pay $1650 monthly. If I stop, then I can't get back on because of preexisting condition
by 2014 (according to the calculator) I would pay $475 monthly no worries about preexisting condition.

So should I just stop my health insurance now, since I won't have to worry about the preexisting condition. I looks like I would just be throwing money away if I keep paying $1650 monthly, since if I get sick, I could just sign up then.

Just saying. Maybe it is time to get on the dole like everyone else. I am fed up paying when a lot of others are not.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on June 28, 2012, 11:57:00 am
As with most things, you can have something cheap, you can have it fast, or you can have quality, but you only get to chose two of the three...

If socialized healthcare anywhere else is an example you can expect rationing, long wait times and a severe drop in quality... which is why most of the European countries are starting to swing toward free market healthcare.

As far as dropping your private insurance, you might want to wait until after November. If the GOP doesn't win, then I would go ahead and enlist in the govt option...

I guess from that explanation, which is more speculative in nature, I need to do some research of my own to see what's around the corner.  I'll report back what I find.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: stevewfl on June 28, 2012, 12:21:57 pm
If you cancel now you won't be insured.

Plus the repubs are going to repeal this crap anyway soon enough
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: gPink on June 28, 2012, 02:14:43 pm
Look at the bigger picture than just obamacare. What the scotus just did was remove any constraint on government intrusion into your life. Taxes have always been used for behavior modification, but up until now we were always taxed on a received product or service. John Roberts has now given us a tax on NON-COMPLIANCE. Get it? We now get taxed for doing nothing. This is wrong on so many levels.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: sherob on June 28, 2012, 02:20:07 pm
Are you contributing to a 401k or IRA?  New tax for that coming soon!  You have Dental Insurance?  You have Mental Health Insurance?  You have Accidental Life Insurance?  What about substance abuse insurance?
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on June 28, 2012, 02:34:31 pm
News to me about the taxes but then I don't follow this stuff much.  Can you point me to where those taxes are discussed.  I'd like to learn more about it.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Stasch on June 28, 2012, 03:28:12 pm
Much of this is poorly written and poorly thought out.  It appears that completely within the rules, another option is to simply pay the 'no insurance' penalty and not carry any insurance at all - until you need it.

When / if a large event occurs where coverage is needed, buy the insurance then since you cannot be denied for pre-existing conditions. 

Why pay $475 a month when you can pay ~$120 / mo. in no-insurance penalties ($1,400 per year for penalties using rounded numbers based on limited info I saw) and bank the difference until you NEED insurance. 

Of course if everyone does this, it drastically skews the premium vs. expected claims ratios meaning - rate increases eventually.

Each family would have to evaluate the gov't coverages is in the form of limits/ costs / copays / deductibles compared to your ongoing normal needs.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Nosmo on June 28, 2012, 03:30:50 pm
Renounce your citizenship.  You then become an illegal alien.  If you get sick you can go to the Emergency Room for free.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: sherob on June 28, 2012, 03:34:58 pm
News to me about the taxes but then I don't follow this stuff much.  Can you point me to where those taxes are discussed.  I'd like to learn more about it.

I was joking about new taxes... being possible now that this has been passed.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Deadeye321 on June 28, 2012, 03:35:47 pm
Yeehaw.  Government run health insurance.  It can't be any worse than anything else they run. 
The only thing that is run well by the government is the military.
  Thankyou to those that are serving or have served.  I owe you my liberty.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Bosco on June 28, 2012, 03:39:21 pm
.....Why pay $475 a month when you can pay ~$120 / mo. in no-insurance penalties ($1,400 per year for penalties using rounded numbers based on limited info I saw) and bank the difference until you NEED insurance......

That is the best idea I have heard yet.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Bosco on June 28, 2012, 03:41:21 pm
Renounce your citizenship.  You then become an illegal alien.  If you get sick you can go to the Emergency Room for free.

Might be an option, it is not the same country anymore. I don't feel like a citizen and it surely is not the greatest county anymore. A sad day.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: gPink on June 28, 2012, 04:06:04 pm
Serious question to the Vets here. How is this ongoing debacle going to affect VA care?
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Mal on June 28, 2012, 04:09:44 pm
Yeehaw.  Government run health insurance.  It can't be any worse than anything else they run. 
The only thing that is run well by the government is the military.
  Thankyou to those that are serving or have served.  I owe you my liberty.

Well, what's left of it anyway...
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Mal on June 28, 2012, 04:15:43 pm
I guess from that explanation, which is more speculative in nature, I need to do some research of my own to see what's around the corner.  I'll report back what I find.

Looking forward to it! BTW, stay away from the World Health Organization, they have been shown to be very biased...
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Bosco on June 28, 2012, 04:34:07 pm
Might be an option, it is not the same country anymore. I don't feel like a citizen and it surely is not the greatest country anymore. A sad day.

A truly sad day.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: stevewfl on June 28, 2012, 04:49:08 pm
News to me about the taxes but then I don't follow this stuff much.  Can you point me to where those taxes are discussed.  I'd like to learn more about it.

Quote
In a 5-4 ruling based on the power of Congress to impose taxes, the nation's highest court preserved the law's "individual mandate" requiring that most Americans obtain health insurance by 2014 or pay a tax. The justices also preserved, with some changes, a provision of the law expanding the Medicaid health insurance program for the poor.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on June 28, 2012, 04:55:24 pm
That's not the tax or whatever you call it he was talking about in his post, Steve. My comments were directed at that.  I'm fully aware of that fee/tax/whatever for not having health insurance.  Really no need worrying about that now.  It could be repealed by next year depending on how the Congress makes it through election year.

Are you contributing to a 401k or IRA?  New tax for that coming soon!  You have Dental Insurance?  You have Mental Health Insurance?  You have Accidental Life Insurance?  What about substance abuse insurance?
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Excavator on June 28, 2012, 06:13:57 pm
Serious question to the Vets here. How is this ongoing debacle going to affect VA care?

Very interested in that myself Mr. Pink.

Has anyone read the 2700 pages yet?........Let me know.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Snibbor on June 28, 2012, 08:22:33 pm
As with most things, you can have something cheap, you can have it fast, or you can have quality, but you only get to chose two of the three...

If socialized healthcare anywhere else is an example you can expect rationing, long wait times and a severe drop in quality... which is why most of the European countries are starting to swing toward free market healthcare.

As far as dropping your private insurance, you might want to wait until after November. If the GOP doesn't win, then I would go ahead and enlist in the govt option...

You better believe it.  This is not going to make things better.  I have yet to hear one positive comment from a healthcare professional.  They should know. 
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Elfmaze on June 28, 2012, 08:26:14 pm
The only thing that is run well by the government is the military.
  Thankyou to those that are serving or have served.  I owe you my liberty.

HA!  lets talk about cost over runs and contractors gouging the government,  or planes and boats that dont work.   Military aint even close to efficient and streamlined
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Strawboss on June 30, 2012, 12:48:13 pm
I'm a health care professional-paramedic- as is my wife-RN/paramedic, and my comment is this. If you think health care was expensive before, wait until its free. If Gov't healthcare is so good in all the other countries, why do they all come here to live and to get medical care.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Cholla on June 30, 2012, 08:43:27 pm
You won't see your taxes go up if you make under 200k...I thought this was supposed to be free?
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: graham downunder on June 30, 2012, 11:22:25 pm
I'm a health care professional-paramedic- as is my wife-RN/paramedic, and my comment is this. If you think health care was expensive before, wait until its free. If Gov't healthcare is so good in all the other countries, why do they all come here to live and to get medical care.

As I live in Australia I can comment on our Government run system . IT was introduced in 1974  by a  left wing Government and was modified in by a right wing Government 1978 and has been played around with ever since by both parties . We still have it but you can top up with private health insurance which covers things that the National system dose not ,adding private health insurance gives you more options .

I cannot understand why your Government has not introduced a similar system to ours , it works and is cost effective . Yes it could be better and it is always getting changed slightly but it dose work .

 The sytem you are introducing is going to fail in about 5- 10 years after it is introduced .
 Your current system will also fail in about the same time

Why is it that some Governments can only get legislation passed that is so flawed as to fail .



Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: AZBiker on July 01, 2012, 12:54:46 am
I had an ex on AHCCCS and if Mr. Bosco thinks that the standard of care he will receive on the gov't insurance will come even remotely close to the private insurance he is sadly delusional.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Strawboss on July 01, 2012, 06:43:51 am
All the rhetoric I'm hearing is how this will greatly help the poor. Healthcare right now is free here for the poor, simply walk into any ER anywhere and this will be evident. So, if we are going to pay for something that we are already paying for, what will be be paying for?
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: AZBiker on July 01, 2012, 09:06:55 am
All the rhetoric I'm hearing is how this will greatly help the poor. Healthcare right now is free here for the poor, simply walk into any ER anywhere and this will be evident. So, if we are going to pay for something that we are already paying for, what will be be paying for?

The theory being that it will be much cheaper in the long run to provide the opportunity for maintenance care to the poor.

It is cheaper to schedule an appointment during the day and see a regular doc for BP meds than it is to go to the ER once every couple of weeks to get them.

Is the theory true?  Who knows.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: CigarSki® on July 01, 2012, 09:35:13 am
You won't see your taxes go up if you make under 200k...I thought this was supposed to be free?
How can it possibly be free?
 
The money has to come from somewhere. The Goverment's only income is taxes and fees (which are just taxes by a different name). Maybe, we could start to institute "tariffs" on all foreign made goods and services like offshore call centers. 
 
The only way to raise the scratch to cover the costs will be through new and inventive taxes like bammy's "Individual Mandate", taxes on any product or service deemed as harmful to the new national health initiative.
 
Motorycles, automobiles and trucks that are imports, tariffed. Dangerous activities like motorcycling, skiing, mountain climbing, bicycling tanning at the booth and beach, sky diving, etc, taxed at userous rates. Cigars, cigarettes, sweetened beverages, alcohol, foods with a high fat / calorie content, taxed.
 
It's a slippery slope and we're on the downside.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: gPink on July 01, 2012, 10:01:49 am
The scotus has got it covered now by ruling a non-compliance tax is constitutional. Not only are we getting screwed for what we do we now can get screwed for doing nothing.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Son of Pappy on July 01, 2012, 01:13:36 pm
20 years service.  Earned my benefits and have the broke bits to prove it.  What a crock.  VA has a 2 year backlog so how will that be impacted?  At the speed of govt is how.  I have been robbed by this entire progressive movt.  I feel sorry for my grandkids and feel that somehow I/we have failed them and they will be living in a nation torn by armed revolution.  I pray I am wrong but history is being repeated.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Awaz on July 02, 2012, 10:35:02 am
This may well be becoming arena material. But you guys are all left or right. Red or Blue. All you are doing is crying about how BAD the current initiative is. Can someone throw out one idea that is COMMON good?! Denouncing citizenship, country going to crap, blah blah, QQ. What is the republicans gonna do? What is their idea? Or you guys think everything is good as it was?

Bosco has a real situation here. $1600 a month is plain ridiculous !!! Why should not he have a better option?! I am not saying the current option is a good one, but hell it is an initiative ! Tell me please what is a good option for him. I had hospital bills from March that insurance company did not pay - about $6000 of it. Now the hospital is on my butt to get the money. I arranged a payment option and the hospital still turned me over to collection! Bishes! Trying to ruin my credit.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: gPink on July 02, 2012, 11:45:11 am
tort reform

interstate sales of insurance

repeal of government mandated coverage

require drug companies to sell products for the same cost in USA that they do overseas

How's that for a start. All these have been shot down by congress in the past.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: westkyguy on July 02, 2012, 11:49:55 am
tort reform

interstate sales of insurance

repeal of government mandated coverage

require drug companies to sell products for the same cost in USA that they do overseas

How's that for a start. All these have been shot down by congress in the past.


 BINGO!!!!!!!!!!! ladies and germs, we have a winner.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Mal on July 02, 2012, 12:18:07 pm
tort reform

interstate sales of insurance

repeal of government mandated coverage

require drug companies to sell products for the same cost in USA that they do overseas

How's that for a start. All these have been shot down by congress in the past.

Excellent  points! In addiction remove the tax incentive for employers to provide insurance, replace with a tax incentive to individual to purchase insurance.

Not only would individuals then be able to take their insurance with them if they change jobs, they would directly oversee the cost vs coverage of their insurance policy, and react to competition...
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 02, 2012, 12:27:39 pm
I like that idea and it would be independent of where you are employed or not.  Then the individual could shop for the best bang for the buck.  Unfortunately, the drug and medical companies, hospital corporations, and insurance companies lobby Congress and the President.  Getting something that makes sense is virtually impossible.   Oh, and I forgot the lawyers.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: CigarSki® on July 02, 2012, 03:07:29 pm
Shhh! I have really good insurance with a kick ass dental plan at a good price. I don't want to see a thing change on my end.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Awaz on July 02, 2012, 03:15:24 pm
Now we got some good idea flowing! And unfortunately, what Jim said is the truth :(
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: blue14 on July 02, 2012, 03:37:11 pm
And let us not forget to have all them Lawyers er..I mean..Members of Congress to be on the same plan as all of the rest of us.


It would get fixed instantly if that happened.  :thumbs:
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: gPink on July 02, 2012, 03:44:04 pm
Think how much free market competition, the influx of however many gov union employees, kicked to the private market with the rest of us, would generate. Competition for business directly affects pricing.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Excavator on July 02, 2012, 06:17:43 pm
And let us not forget to have all them Lawyers er..I mean..Members of Congress to be on the same plan as all of the rest of us.


It would get fixed instantly if that happened.  :thumbs:

There you go. If Obamacare is so great then why are they exempt?
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: CigarSki® on July 02, 2012, 06:26:09 pm
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: blue14 on July 02, 2012, 06:49:27 pm
There you go. If Obamacare is so great then why are they exempt?

Another way to fix this......everybody cancels their insurance.  TOMORROW.

Obama wants single payer, give it to him.  The chaos will end this idea in weeks maybe even days.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: graham downunder on July 03, 2012, 03:57:14 am
tort reform

interstate sales of insurance

repeal of government mandated coverage

require drug companies to sell products for the same cost in USA that they do overseas

How's that for a start. All these have been shot down by congress in the past.


That's a great start How about all politicians have to use the same system that returned serviceman do .

I was at Congress last year when in the USA and they have TWO Ambulances stationed behind the building One labeled for Senators and one for Congressmen .I mean they had them sitting there and HARD wired into a power supply with two security guards .
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Cholla on July 03, 2012, 11:39:58 am
To answer a question that was axed back on page 3, the reason the US didn't do this earlier is because it is unconstitutional! It is illegal! It is NOT a function of gummint per the CotUS. Our founder wanted less government rule and more individual freedom.
We have the right to PURSUE happiness, not the right TO happiness. Our gummint is supposed to PROMOTE the general welfare of the people-not PROVIDE it.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 03, 2012, 01:44:42 pm
Why is it illegal (Devil's advocate here)?  Is it illegal because you don't like it per your own values or the way you interpret the Constitution?  I don't like a lot of things but I don't think they are going to change the laws just for me or for you or even a goodly number of citizens claiming the same idea. Governments evolve and change.  Our founding base of laws was made to be modified, otherwise they (FFs) wouldn't have put in the ability to add amendments.  Events are happening today that the FFs couldn't conceivably imagine yet the government still functions and continues to evolve.

Supreme court Justices are chosen because of their backgrounds and the cases they've presided over.  Just because a Republican President picks a justice doesn't necessarily mean they'll vote conservative every time as we've just seen.  Same goes for the Democrats.   Interesting world to say the least.

I can certainly understand why you would be upset over the SC action but there's always different tactics (that rascally Constitution again) to change or modify laws.  Berate your Congress person to change what you feel is wrong.  That's about the best you can do in this case.  I certainly tell mine a thing or two at times.  You'll have a really good chance this Fall, I understand.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Strawboss on July 03, 2012, 01:57:27 pm
A court that tells me that I have to buy health insurance when I'm happy to not have it I think is what he's saying. The court is saying he'll be happy buying it thereby providing him with gov't happiness. He's saying he's persuing his happiness by NOT having it thank you. He'd like to choose another option that works better for him, and who better to know that than him. Thats what a mandate is I believe, mandatory. 
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: gPink on July 03, 2012, 02:03:43 pm
involuntary servitude
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 03, 2012, 02:06:44 pm
A court that tells me that I have to buy health insurance when I'm happy to not have it I think is what he's saying. The court is saying he'll be happy buying it thereby providing him with gov't happiness. He's saying he's persuing his happiness by NOT having it thank you. He'd like to choose another option that works better for him, and who better to know that than him. Thats what a mandate is I believe, mandatory.

Sounds like a personal issue to me.  Be angry, be upset, doesn't matter.  It is what it is for now.  Channel the anger towards changing the law.  Change the law by voting for the representative and Senator who shares your ideas.  It's the way the system works.  Didn't any of you take 'government' in high school?

And by the way, it's not the court telling you to do anything.  It's just affirming what Congress passed and the President signed.  It can all be undone, though it takes time and it has to go through the process all over again.  It's a beautiful thing, really.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: CigarSki® on July 03, 2012, 02:20:52 pm
Damn it Jim. Would you stop injecting logic and reason into a socio political discussion.  ;)
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 03, 2012, 02:25:26 pm
You're right, of course.  Wrong planet.  I thought I was on Vulcan.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Strawboss on July 03, 2012, 03:03:43 pm
Of course its very easy to say, well, its the law of the land and we must abide and work to change it in other ways. Well, yes, you are right, but you asked where did it say it was illegal. I'm not angry at all, dissappointed, but not angry, I was merely trying to convey to you what I thought another member was saying. I didn't need a patronizing comment about my high school education while answering your flippant question concerning the obvious. 
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Bosco on July 03, 2012, 03:27:33 pm
....... Channel the anger towards changing the law.  Change the law by voting for the representative and Senator who shares your ideas.  It's the way the system works.  ....................

In another time there where people who felt that the "system" would not work for them in any regard and that system must be shed. At one point these people where called patriots. They were people like Patrick Henry and Samuel Adams.

I wonder what they will be called this time.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 03, 2012, 03:48:53 pm
Didn't they have something to do with the present regime?

I spent time last night watching my DVRd episode of 'Queen and Country'.  It brought me to tears, but I digress.

Ok, so what kind of government do you want?  Now bear in mind, the majority of folks here in the US like the present form of government, me included, but I'm open to suggestions.....right now I'm leaning towards a monarchy....what's your druthers?


Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 03, 2012, 04:12:01 pm
Of course its very easy to say, well, its the law of the land and we must abide and work to change it in other ways. Well, yes, you are right, but you asked where did it say it was illegal. I'm not angry at all, dissappointed, but not angry, I was merely trying to convey to you what I thought another member was saying. I didn't need a patronizing comment about my high school education while answering your flippant question concerning the obvious.

Sorry, I missed your response.  I think I said that in a more rhetorical tone rather than an accusation, at least that was the intent.   Sorry about that.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Strawboss on July 03, 2012, 04:20:47 pm
Its ok. I'm just trying to keep this thread civil, I'm surprised its lasted this long here without name calling and troll comments designed to incite anger.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Bosco on July 03, 2012, 04:25:44 pm
Didn't they have something to do with the present regime?

I spent time last night watching my DVRd episode of 'Queen and Country'.  It brought me to tears, but I digress.

Ok, so what kind of government do you want?  Now bear in mind, the majority of folks here in the US like the present form of government, me included, but I'm open to suggestions.....right now I'm leaning towards a monarchy....what's your druthers?

Monarchy, who do you have in mind. :stirpot:
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Strawboss on July 03, 2012, 04:48:55 pm
Well, first off you don't vote for a king. And its been quite awhile since I've seen the lady of the lake, her arm clad in the purest if simmering samite holding aloft Excaliber, proclaiming someone king. So, I'm at a loss as to who we can get. ;D
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 03, 2012, 04:54:39 pm
Monarch,y who do you have in mind. :stirpot:

Why, the Queen of England, of course....
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: gPink on July 03, 2012, 04:57:12 pm
I'd be in favor of a representative republic. This form of government would only work if the people took an active part and the elected persons actually represented the people and not themselves and their quest for power.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 03, 2012, 04:58:17 pm
Well, first off you don't vote for a king. And its been quite awhile since I've seen the lady of the lake, her arm clad in the purest if simmering samite holding aloft Excaliber, proclaiming someone king. So, I'm at a loss as to who we can get. ;D

True enough.  I actually saw her the other day as I was sipping on a Margarita newly made on our new Margaritaville mixer.  Still trying to get the mix right.  Had to add more Tequila and more mix to make it taste right.  I'll have to work on that some more tonight.  Any more visions and I'll let you know.  ;D
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: gPink on July 03, 2012, 05:05:11 pm
You're not confusing your cacti are you?
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 03, 2012, 05:05:59 pm
I'd be in favor of a representative republic. This form of government would only work if the people took an active part and the elected persons actually represented the people and not themselves and their quest for power.

That's what happens now, doesn't it?  ;)   In theory.....

Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 03, 2012, 05:06:52 pm
You're not confusing your cacti are you?

Absolutely!
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 03, 2012, 05:09:14 pm
Its ok. I'm just trying to keep this thread civil, I'm surprised its lasted this long here without name calling and troll comments designed to incite anger.

So far...we don't usually discuss such things out of the Arena.  I'm impressed.  I'm hoping more people can get involved but so far it's not working.  Got me involved but that's not exciting at all.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Strawboss on July 03, 2012, 05:40:08 pm
I usually don't see the lady of the lake until 3 or 4 gin and tonics, twist of lime and a dash of bitters. But you know, they'd lock me up if I went around talking of watery tarts lobbing scimitars at me.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 03, 2012, 05:46:57 pm
I usually don't see the lady of the lake until 3 or 4 gin and tonics, twist of lime and a dash of bitters. But you know, they'd lock me up if I went around talking of watery tarts lobbing scimitars at me.

I wouldn't either...lock you up for talking such.  Gin and tonic.......ahhhhhh.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: CigarSki® on July 03, 2012, 05:52:26 pm
Benevolent Dictatorship! Kinda like the way I run my shop. Everybody gets a say as long as it's done my way.  ;D
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 03, 2012, 06:10:56 pm
That doesn't sound so benevolent to me... :-X
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Strawboss on July 03, 2012, 06:15:46 pm
Bombay Blue Saffire or Tanqaray Rangpur, of course I've been seen drinking Beefeaters in a pinch ;D. And nothing but Angostura bitters. The tonic water sold here has fructose in it, there are some others that are sold in specialty stores that have real sugar. Anyway, we've gotten off topic, sorry, back to the discussion. Do you think people like it here because of the system we have because if you asked I'd wager a majority wouldn't know what we have here, a Republic?
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Outback_Jon on July 03, 2012, 06:35:30 pm
Well, first off you don't vote for a king. And its been quite awhile since I've seen the lady of the lake, her arm clad in the purest if simmering samite holding aloft Excaliber, proclaiming someone king. So, I'm at a loss as to who we can get. ;D
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: gPink on July 03, 2012, 06:53:11 pm
...but ...it was a magic sword.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Strawboss on July 03, 2012, 07:20:26 pm
A moistened bint?
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 03, 2012, 08:11:58 pm
That's what I like about this place...bikes, liquor, women, tarts, swords...not necessarily in that order...  I guess that's what brings us together.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: CigarSki® on July 03, 2012, 08:33:03 pm
It's a democracy with me holding the deciding vote.  8)
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Jaxter on July 03, 2012, 09:14:48 pm
all I know is I'm gonna vote Republican this time
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Strawboss on July 03, 2012, 09:16:08 pm
Would that be a super majority?
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 04, 2012, 05:17:15 am
I rather doubt it.  Independents can sway elections as they did the last one.  Just depends on how they feel.  The polls suggest that it's fairly close right now so I think, yet again, the independents will decide how this one will go.  I think the current administration is nervous, but it's no slam dunk for the competition either.   It's usually quite hard to not elect a sitting President no matter what the party he represents.  However, it has been done in the past.  It will be very interesting this Fall.  The Health Care issue may be front and center on voters minds but again polls suggest (by a slim majority) that the electorate wants to get on with other business.  I know you guys don't want to hear that but I'm just relaying what I've seen on the 'net.  It has to be true. ;)
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: gPink on July 04, 2012, 05:48:48 am
Jim, I agree. The health care thing is something to be dealt with but people still want jobs and a better economy. Folks will have to decide if they are better off now or if if things will get worse under the current 'leadership'.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 04, 2012, 06:06:05 am
That will be one of the telling points for the current admin. and voters.  Am I better off now or not?  The incumbent may win the election but totally lose the legislative branches.  Fun times.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 04, 2012, 06:07:49 am
all I know is I'm gonna vote Republican this time

So I take it you didn't last election?  If so, you could be one of the 'swing' voters that will decide this upcoming election.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 04, 2012, 06:38:44 am
Here's a quiz I found on the Constitution....I got 73%...missed 4.  Not so good on the mechanics of how and who put it together.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Outback_Jon on July 04, 2012, 06:42:56 am
Here's a quiz I found on the Constitution....I got 73%...missed 4.  Not so good on the mechanics of how and who put it together.
I got 100%.


Well, not really, but since there was no link, I graded myself.   :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: blue14 on July 04, 2012, 06:55:03 am
I got 100%.


Well, not really, but since there was no link, I graded myself.   :rotflmao:

And how did Jim get any wrong? :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Outback_Jon on July 04, 2012, 07:07:20 am
And how did Jim get any wrong? :rotflmao:
He's not as lenient a grader as I am.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: stevewfl on July 04, 2012, 07:40:15 am
7 pages of what?

You don't trust the gubment with your healthcare needs?  I mean like take the post office for example, the mail has been reliable for years and its gubment runs with your tax dollars and a friendly union as well!?

(http://magellon.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jeep2.jpg)
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: gPink on July 04, 2012, 07:53:39 am
Maybe we should have the post office run health care.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 04, 2012, 09:11:15 am
I know, I know, very hard to believe.  There was a trick question or two on Federal Judge rulings and who signed it.  See, I'm only partly human after all.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 04, 2012, 09:16:13 am
Maybe we should have the post office run health care.

I'm not sure that would be a good idea.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: CigarSki® on July 04, 2012, 09:40:33 am
I'm not sure that would be a good idea.
Having worked for the USPS in the past, and, having family members who have also worked for the USPS, Dad, Uncle and two cousins...
I have to agree with VJ on this one. It would be a very scary move.  :o
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: stevewfl on July 04, 2012, 09:58:41 am
And we think gubment will do better with our health than they have the post office?  That was the point of my post even tho I jacked it up on a fishing expedition (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: blue14 on July 04, 2012, 10:30:59 am
I'm not sure that would be a good idea.

Why not?  The Postal Service wont screw up health care any worse than the department of Obamacare.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: snarf on July 04, 2012, 11:00:00 am
Maybe we should have the post office run health care.
It might work, just dont get sick or need major surgery on a Sunday. Of course your rates will increase 39 cents every year just like a stamp.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: gPink on July 04, 2012, 11:53:08 am
Might not be any babies delivered on Sat. soon. The ambulance ride to the hospital in those little carrier trucks might be uncomfortable too.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Roadhound on July 04, 2012, 12:08:24 pm
It might work, just dont get sick or need major surgery on a Sunday. Of course your rates will increase 39 cents every year just like a stamp.

I must of missed that one. When did stamps go up 39 cents in a year?
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Awaz on July 05, 2012, 10:14:45 am
I cannot remember....but was there an outcry when auto insurance was mandated?
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: gPink on July 05, 2012, 10:19:55 am
Driving on public roads is a privilege. If you drive only on private property you don't need insurance.
Therefore this is a choice made by an individual. The healthcare tax/fine/penalty is not a choice but commanded by the government and will be enforced by the IRS.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Strawboss on July 05, 2012, 10:36:19 am
Here in Ohio auto insurance is mandated, you want to know how many drivers here DON'T have it? And as stated, driving a car is a privledge, and I can get insurance from a wide range of different companies to choose from and in any amount I choose. Even though car insurance is mandated, I still pay high premiums for uninsured motorists, well, why is that if insurance is mandated for all. Health care is the same way, we already pay for all who are uninsured, well, why get it mandated if its already being payed for? 
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Mal on July 05, 2012, 10:40:09 am
Driving on public roads is a privilege. If you drive only on private property you don't need insurance.
Therefore this is a choice made by an individual. The healthcare tax/fine/penalty is not a choice but commanded by the government and will be enforced by the IRS.

Correct. Participation in auto insurance is voluntary, and only mandated if you choose to drive...
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Mal on July 05, 2012, 10:47:39 am
I cannot remember....but was there an outcry when auto insurance was mandated?

Hmm, lets continue the comparison...

Auto insurance doesn't cover maintenance. You pay for your own oil changes, tire changes, fluid replacements, etc.
If you fail to maintain your vehicle, and it fails, auto insurance doesn't cover your loss.
Auto insurance typically only pays if something catastrophic happens due to no fault of your own.
You can shop across state lines for your auto insurance.
Competition is very high among auto insurance providers.
For the most part, you can choose the levels of coverage that work for you with auto insurance.
When you decide to take a different job, your auto insurance goes with you.

Imagine how much cheaper health insurance would be if it followed the same outline.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 05, 2012, 10:51:59 am
In VA, there is a fine/penalty/what have you, if you want to drive without insurance.  So you can drive without insurance if you pay $500, I guess kinda like the penalty/tax for the new health care initiative.  I'm not sure I understand that one, except it's a money maker for the state.  There are still many that drive without any kind of 'insurance' and don't pay the fee.  I mean if someone can pay $500 they might be able to pay the insurance premium for at least one vehicle I would think.

In going back over it, I do like most of the provisions, but I don't understand the tax/penalty for people not buying it.  So you are making people pay that can't afford it anyway.  So what happens if they (who don't pay and really don't have much of anything) have to go to the hospital?  I've got a feeling I'll be paying for them.  Now, they get treated anyway, I guess.  Would the hospital refuse?   So what if the bill collector comes calling.....no money, no home....  Is the government going to fine the homeless?  What about the illegals?

I'm not really sure how this is going to work in practice.  Seems to be awkward at best.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: snarf on July 05, 2012, 01:47:08 pm
I must of missed that one. When did stamps go up 39 cents in a year?
They didnt it was just a little tongue and check attempt at humor.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: AZBiker on July 06, 2012, 06:13:47 am
I just want a Federal government that takes an extremely narrow and literal view of the Constitution (especially the ICC) and a very broad view of the BoR.

Interesting that Awaz cannot seem to distinguish between a privilege and a right.

Disturbing that Awaz seems to be a Marxist with all his talk about the Common Good.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: gPink on July 06, 2012, 06:33:35 am
I just want a Federal government that takes an extremely narrow and literal view of the Constitution (especially the ICC) and a very broad view of the BoR.

Interesting that Awaz cannot seem to distinguish between a privilege and a right.

Disturbing that Awaz seems to be a Marxist with all his talk about the Common Good.

I think that's unfair. The Preamble speaks to the general welfare of the people. Does that mean it's a marxist document?

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Strawboss on July 06, 2012, 07:19:32 am
Yeah VA-Jim, I also forgot to add in Ohio, if you are in a crash, get a citation or are asked for proof of insurance and you don't have it, you simply pay a fee. You are asked to sign a statement when renewing you plates if you have car insurance, guess what EVERYBODY says? And, if you are ever stopped and get the penalty and can't get your plates UNTIL you can show proof of insurance, guess what some do? Get a policy, go down to the BMV, show proof, get their plates, come home and cancel the policy. We are a bit behind the times here in OH. So, apply this to companies, not get insurance, pay the fee, lay people off. Simplistic? Could it happen? I don't know, only time will tell.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 06, 2012, 07:21:18 am
I just want a Federal government that takes an extremely narrow and literal view of the Constitution (especially the ICC) and a very broad view of the BoR.

Interesting that Awaz cannot seem to distinguish between a privilege and a right.

Disturbing that Awaz seems to be a Marxist with all his talk about the Common Good.

In the effort to keep this in 'Open' for other participants, let's not start calling people names.  In reviewing Awaz's posts I don't see how you can make the connection between him and a Marxist.  That is stretching it beyond the breaking point.

From what I've seen of the health initiative, I like most of the provisions.  At least someone is trying to do something about health care.  I haven't seen anything from the other side in that respect except negativity.  If you don't like something then propose something else.  I have a real problem with that and the legislative branch.  One party comes up with something and then the other trashes it without suggestions on compromise.  This goes for both of them.

I don't see anything in it......yet, that will negatively affect me.  Health care costs will increase, they say.  Where have they been for the last 20 years...  They've been increasing since I can remember.  It's nothing new.  My providers have changed many times over the years with the corresponding increases in premiums and the cutting of services.  At least this go round I can go to a specialist without a referral. 

We're speculating quite a bit on the potential impact of these initiatives.  I don't think we'll know for sure until they actually start being implemented.  At least one health care company said that they were keeping some of the initiatives in place even if the laws were considered un-Constitutional.  United Healthcare, I think.

All I can say is at my age (slightly corpulent 56), I need health insurance no matter what form it comes in.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: blue14 on July 06, 2012, 07:24:02 am
Yeah VA-Jim, I also forgot to add in Ohio, if you are in a crash, get a citation or are asked for proof of insurance and you don't have it, you simply pay a fee. You are asked to sign a statement when renewing you plates if you have car insurance, guess what EVERYBODY says? And, if you are ever stopped and get the penalty and can't get your plates UNTIL you can show proof of insurance, guess what some do? Get a policy, go down to the BMV, show proof, get their plates, come home and cancel the policy. We are a bit behind the times here in OH. So, apply this to companies, not get insurance, pay the fee, lay people off. Simplistic? Could it happen? I don't know, only time will tell.

 :goodpost:     People/Companies will learn the new rules of the ballgame, and then play the game to their own self interests.  These will likely be different than the authors of the rules originally thought or intended.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 06, 2012, 07:24:19 am
Yeah VA-Jim, I also forgot to add in Ohio, if you are in a crash, get a citation or are asked for proof of insurance and you don't have it, you simply pay a fee. You are asked to sign a statement when renewing you plates if you have car insurance, guess what EVERYBODY says? And, if you are ever stopped and get the penalty and can't get your plates UNTIL you can show proof of insurance, guess what some do? Get a policy, go down to the BMV, show proof, get their plates, come home and cancel the policy. We are a bit behind the times here in OH. So, apply this to companies, not get insurance, pay the fee, lay people off. Simplistic? Could it happen? I don't know, only time will tell.

I agree as well...although in VA I do get a letter from the DMV asking me for insurance information and if I don't provide it will do something to either your license or vehicle registration.  I don't remember since I haven't got one of those in awhile.

That's the big bug a boo for me is the forcing of people to buy insurance.  I'm ok with the rest of it so far.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 06, 2012, 07:26:24 am
:goodpost:     People/Companies will learn the new rules of the ballgame, and then play the game to their own self interests.  These will likely be different than the authors of the rules originally thought or intended.

Yep, that's the way it's been and that's the way it will always be.  They'll find the loop holes and work them the best they can.  It's human nature.  I imagine if the laws stand through the next election that after a few years they'll be changes to them.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Strawboss on July 06, 2012, 07:54:13 am
Yes, after 10 whole years, Ohio finally decided to send letters to folks on a purely random basis asking for proof of insurance. Guess what happens when you get a letter and don't have it? Yep, refer to above about a temporary policy. We also have a law that mandates you pay the full amount of your renewal for plates regardless if the vehicle is on the road or not. I can understand this. But what about seasonal vehicles? They waived the law for bikes as we are under snow for 6 months here but not for cars even though you can prove it hasn't been on the road.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: AZBiker on July 06, 2012, 08:31:28 am
I think that's unfair. The Preamble speaks to the general welfare of the people. Does that mean it's a marxist document?

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

But he did not say General Welfare, he said Common Good.

A phrase that pops up in Marxist/Leninist screeds over and over and over.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 06, 2012, 09:16:14 am
I don't have a problem with that phrase and don't equate it to anything negative.  It's used all over the place.   

Here's one...

http://www.commongood.org/pages/about-us (http://www.commongood.org/pages/about-us)

Some interesting people behind that organization and I don't think they are Marxists.

Common Good....I like it. Like that organization as well.

Mal, what do think of it?

Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Mal on July 06, 2012, 09:20:07 am
I think that's unfair. The Preamble speaks to the general welfare of the people. Does that mean it's a marxist document?

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

When the FF's talked of general welfare, they were saying that the US government will promote the state of well being, happiness, and prosperity for the whole. Not sure of your point, I hope you're not saying that the General Welfare clause supports the welfare state...

"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." - James Madison
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Mal on July 06, 2012, 09:23:51 am
In the effort to keep this in 'Open' for other participants, let's not start calling people names.  In reviewing Awaz's posts I don't see how you can make the connection between him and a Marxist.  That is stretching it beyond the breaking point.


Well said...

Quote
From what I've seen of the health initiative, I like most of the provisions.  At least someone is trying to do something about health care.  I haven't seen anything from the other side in that respect except negativity.  If you don't like something then propose something else.  I have a real problem with that and the legislative branch.  One party comes up with something and then the other trashes it without suggestions on compromise.  This goes for both of them.


It's not like the GOP doesn't have any ideas... http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/07/05/Paul-Ryan-We-Win-We-Repeal (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/07/05/Paul-Ryan-We-Win-We-Repeal)

He mentions Tort reform, that is one we missed in our list. Tort reform would go a long way to lowering our healthcare costs, as most physicians will run unnecessary tests just to cover their butt in case of a lawsuit. Plus, every dollar a physician or hospital pays for lawsuit insurance, is a dollar they pass onto the consumer...

Quote
I don't see anything in it......yet, that will negatively affect me.  Health care costs will increase, they say.  Where have they been for the last 20 years...  They've been increasing since I can remember.  It's nothing new.  My providers have changed many times over the years with the corresponding increases in premiums and the cutting of services.  At least this go round I can go to a specialist without a referral. 

We're speculating quite a bit on the potential impact of these initiatives.  I don't think we'll know for sure until they actually start being implemented.  At least one health care company said that they were keeping some of the initiatives in place even if the laws were considered un-Constitutional.  United Healthcare, I think.

All I can say is at my age (slightly corpulent 56), I need health insurance no matter what form it comes in.


I've done enough research to where I'm convinced our quality of care will go down, and our waiting times will go up. If the government does succeed in putting any kind of price restrictions in place, our innovation will also suffer. People/Companies don't do research out of benevolence alone, they are looking to make a profit. If there is no profit, there will be no research, or at least a lot less of it...

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest." —Adam Smith
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Mal on July 06, 2012, 09:28:26 am
I don't have a problem with that phrase and don't equate it to anything negative.  It's used all over the place.   

Here's one...

[url]http://www.commongood.org/pages/about-us[/url] ([url]http://www.commongood.org/pages/about-us[/url])

Some interesting people behind that organization and I don't think they are Marxists.

Common Good....I like it. Like that organization as well.

Mal, what do think of it?


I've never heard of them, but if they follow their mission statement, IMO they are on the right track...

"We propose practical, bold ideas to restore common sense to all three branches of government––legislative, executive and judicial––based on the principles of individual freedom, responsibility and accountability. Our mission is to overhaul governmental and legal systems to allow people to make sensible choices. We believe Americans need to be liberated to do their best."
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 06, 2012, 09:35:23 am
Thanks, got some reading to do...
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: W14 on July 06, 2012, 10:04:34 am
Referencing the posts on auto insurance in Ohio and Virginia, Virginia allows motorists to pay an uninsured motorist fee in lieu of paying for insurance. This fee does not the provide the motorist with insurance, and if the motorist causes an accident, they are personally liable. DMV keeps some of the money for admin costs, the rest goes to insurance companies to help lower overall  insurance costs. Cancelling your insurance can be costly, as insurance companies send cancellation info to the DMV. DMV, in turn, sends letters to motorists to verify insurance.  If DMV determines that you have supplied false info, you are in deep trouble. All driving and registration priviledges are suspended; the uninsured penalty is do and expensive proof of insurance is required for 3 years.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: AZBiker on July 06, 2012, 10:11:19 am
I don't have a problem with that phrase and don't equate it to anything negative.  It's used all over the place.   

Here's one...

[url]http://www.commongood.org/pages/about-us[/url] ([url]http://www.commongood.org/pages/about-us[/url])

Some interesting people behind that organization and I don't think they are Marxists.

Common Good....I like it. Like that organization as well.

Mal, what do think of it?


I think the subversiveness of it has ol' Saul rolling in his grave.   ;)

http://puntocracy.blogspot.com/2007/10/common-good-and-marxism.html (http://puntocracy.blogspot.com/2007/10/common-good-and-marxism.html)

History calls those men the greatest who have ennobled themselves by working for the common good; experience acclaims as happiest the man who has made the greatest number of people happy.
Marx, Letter to His Father (1837)

"The Radical... is that person to whom the common good is the greatest personal value"  Saul Alinsky

It's not only that--it's Awaz's statist views on things like gun control.

Well I'm out.

I live where I do because of my political views.  It also dictates where and how I spend my money.

I've made it a habit instead of debating it on the internet I write emails and send letters to my Congresspeople and donate money to groups that I think have my best interests in mind.

I also vote and have been to a protest or three.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Awaz on July 06, 2012, 10:20:28 am
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He mentions Tort reform, that is one we missed in our list. Tort reform would go a long way to lowering our healthcare costs, as most physicians will run unnecessary tests just to cover their butt in case of a lawsuit. Plus, every dollar a physician or hospital pays for lawsuit insurance, is a dollar they pass onto the consumer...

Ideally, tort reform should lower the cost. But I am paranoid that hospitals and doctors may continue to charge the same rate, do the unnecessary tests and pocket the profit.

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I've done enough research to where I'm convinced our quality of care will go down, and our waiting times will go up. If the government does succeed in putting any kind of price restrictions in place, our innovation will also suffer. People/Companies don't do research out of benevolence alone, they are looking to make a profit. If there is no profit, there will be no research, or at least a lot less of it...
I know one can argue that this sets a precedence on other things and I will not deny that. But in my mind, unless I am missing something, we are talking about a gov funded insurance option. I am not looking at it like it will be the only player. The private players will still exist. As you have stated, a gov funded option will most definitely be littered with low quality and poor service. Where I stand now, I will probably not take it. But from my step daughters stand-point, it may be god send. Her employer provides no insurance and so she has none. At least it is something instead of nothing at all. After all, the doctors and hospitals are not providing the service for free. You can also argue the pre-existing condition. In literal terms, removing pre-existing condition removes the definition of 'insurance' and that is a major beef for the insurance companies - and rightfully so. But if you really look at their pre-existing condition clauses, they put almost the whole wide world in there. Even if you took antibiotics for a major infection, they can put you on a wait time and tack on a surcharge to your premium. Eliminating pre-existing condition does help out a ton of people - I am sure even Bosco. You can argue that as socilaist/marxist whatever - but you cannot deny that it does help a good chunk of the people. But it just does not make business sense and that is why the mandate for all to have insurance. You just cannot have one without the other. I agree, it is an unpopular way to achieve a goal just by the principle of it - principle of freedom. But is it an effective way? I unfortunately think it is.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Awaz on July 06, 2012, 10:23:18 am
I think the subversiveness of it has ol' Saul rolling in his grave.   ;)

[url]http://puntocracy.blogspot.com/2007/10/common-good-and-marxism.html[/url] ([url]http://puntocracy.blogspot.com/2007/10/common-good-and-marxism.html[/url])

History calls those men the greatest who have ennobled themselves by working for the common good; experience acclaims as happiest the man who has made the greatest number of people happy.
Marx, Letter to His Father (1837)

"The Radical... is that person to whom the common good is the greatest personal value"  Saul Alinsky

It's not only that--it's Awaz's statist views on things like gun control.

Well I'm out.

I live where I do because of my political views.  It also dictates where and how I spend my money.

I've made it a habit instead of debating it on the internet I write emails and send letters to my Congresspeople and donate money to groups that I think have my best interests in mind.

I also vote and have been to a protest or three.


I am entitled to my opinion. I am not judging you for yours. Peace brother.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: VirginiaJim on July 06, 2012, 10:35:58 am
 :thumbs:
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Rhino on July 06, 2012, 11:03:33 am
OK, I'm late to the party here (I've been out riding for the last week and a half) so pardon me if I cover some already covered ground. Here it goes:

There is ZERO comparison between the mandate for auto insurance and this obamanation. You are required to have liability insurance to cover another motorist should you cause an accident. You are NOT required to have collision insurance to cover yourself. See the difference?
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Mal on July 06, 2012, 11:24:49 am
Ideally, tort reform should lower the cost. But I am paranoid that hospitals and doctors may continue to charge the same rate, do the unnecessary tests and pocket the profit.

While that is a distinct possibility, I can't believe all doctors and hospitals would do so. Even if only a few lowered their rates, the others would be forced to do so because of competition.


As for the rest, there are valid arguments that Obamacare is designed to force private insurers out of business. The simple fact that the fines for employers dropping employees are so much lower than the cost of employers providing insurance go a long way to supporting that argument...
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Strawboss on July 06, 2012, 12:00:20 pm
Rhino, the other guy without insurance? What does he pay? If insurance for "the other guy without it" is mandated, he should already have it right? In case I don't have it. Then why are we required to get something already there since health care is already payed for people who don't have it by people who do. Devil's advocate, thats all.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Rhino on July 06, 2012, 12:33:52 pm
I would argue liability insurance is not for "the other guy without it", liability insurance is to make sure you can cover damages you might cause to another person weather or not they have any insurance.

Rhino, the other guy without insurance? What does he pay? If insurance for "the other guy without it" is mandated, he should already have it right? In case I don't have it. Then why are we required to get something already there since health care is already payed for people who don't have it by people who do. Devil's advocate, thats all.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Strawboss on July 06, 2012, 01:03:34 pm
You are right Rhino. You know, this particular thread is normally not a subject I follow, but its been interesting, and very civil for the most part, almost enjoyable. As stated before it is what it is and people are what they are, you aren't going to change folks opinions about things like this and many times it devolves into name calling, this time it hasn't. Refreshing.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Tim on July 06, 2012, 07:43:27 pm
Using auto insurance as an example twists the health care intent. Driving, number one is a privilege not a right. If you don’t drive then you most likely will not need auto insurance. With Obama care if you breathe, you have to have it. Plus if you make under $25,000.00 a year, get ready for your 12 new taxes Obama won’t talk about. AS Nancy said they have to pass it to find out what’s in it…..and it isn’t looking good.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Strawboss on July 07, 2012, 08:35:03 am
Well, yes, of course. What folks were comparing was a mandate, not a complete apples to apples comparison, it was just an easy analogy many would understand and relate to. If you drive insurance is a mandate in many areas. Of course not everyone drives, but everyone who does drive must get it, and when they get it, theres many choices, and if you wanted, you don't even need to get it, just pay a penalty if required to prove it.
Title: Re: Should I stop my Health Insurance
Post by: Mal on July 10, 2012, 09:44:03 am
"Actually, Paul Ryan’s alternative to Obamacare—the Patient’s Choice Act—proposes an enormous expansion of coverage. Among other things, it would transform today’s tax exclusion for employer-provided coverage into a capped universal health-care tax credit, which people could use to buy coverage or care regardless of their circumstances. A similar proposal by John McCain in the 2008 campaign was projected to reduce the number of uninsured Americans by roughly 21 million. Over time the effect would likely be even greater than that since this system would create an enormous incentive for insurers to offer attractive low-premium plans that could be purchased for the amount made available by the credit (simply put, neither consumers nor insurers would leave billions of dollars on the table unclaimed, and the enormous competition among insurers for that money would yield appealing options). So while it wouldn’t always involve insurance as comprehensive as Obamacare would require, it would be likely to get us closer to universal access to health insurance than Obamacare—and without the kinds of violations of individual liberty, the Constitution, and the laws of economics involved with Obamacare."

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/304823/dream-command-economics-yuval-levin (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/304823/dream-command-economics-yuval-levin)

IMO, eliminating the tax rebates to employers for offering health care, and creating tax rebates to individuals is the main answer, for all of the reasons stated above...