Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Tree on October 20, 2017, 04:21:41 am

Title: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)
Post by: Tree on October 20, 2017, 04:21:41 am
For those of you just tuning in I had experienced the dreaded ignition switch problem a little while ago (stuck microswitch).  My "fix" was not entirely elegant and the repair itself resulted in electrical problems that persisted.  I finally removed the Steering Lock Unit (SLU) and repaired the microswitch by shaving off some plastic.  All is well with the SLU now.

The toggle switch that I installed to 'bypass' the faulty SLU microswitch has been removed and the electrical has been restored to original/normal. 

The toggle switch created a short circuit in the Charging System because it was contacting the left rail for the windscreen.  The 30A fuse from the battery was blowing because of the short.  I went around and around trying to find/fix this problem that I had actually installed myself.  You can search for my other posts about it if you need a good laugh.

I have replaced the Voltage Regulator 2 times as a result.  There shouldn't be any more problems with the charging circuit because everything is back to stock now.  What concerns me is the effect that all of this may have had upon the Stator.  The regulator is a load for the stator and I basically destroyed 2 regulators as a result of my prior frankensteinian actions.  What did I do to the stator, if anything?  Did I weaken it to the point that it will fail next?  Should I test it or just replace it?

I would like to hear from anyone with experience or knowledge about testing, replacing the stator.  If the part can be obtained without buying an entire alternator or is an alternator replacement my only option?

Again, the Charging Circuit works fine now.  I'm just concerned that I may have stressed the stator to the point that it will fail prematurely.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: gPink on October 20, 2017, 05:00:57 am
I think you're barking up the wrong tree.



Sorry, I really have know idea but I couldn't resist using that line.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Freddy on October 20, 2017, 06:34:00 am
Don't worry - be happy.  Stators function at max load for half their life due to AC earthed thru the Regulator/Rectifier.  That doesn't cause a problem for them.  Triumph 1050 stators are another matter - some folks carry a spare.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: B.D.F. on October 20, 2017, 09:28:12 am
Last line first: the stator IS the alternator on the C-14. The only other part of the alternator are the permanent magnets that the stator turns inside of and they are not really anything that fails under any normal conditions.

As to the stator or coil winding itself, the only way to 'stress' it would be to overheat it and damage the insulation. This is the common failure mode but only on older motorcycles that had insufficiently large stators that were constantly overloaded (look up KZ 1300 for an excellent example). The C-14's coil, which is also the ZX 14's coil, has not proven to be problematic.

As far as whether you have damaged it or not, I believe it unlikely that you have. But beyond that, there is no test or even a visual examination that I know of that would be of any benefit in finding that out; you would have to actually unwind the coil to examine the lacquer insulation along the inside part of the coil and in doing that, you would have effectively destroyed the stator anyway. So the question left is whether or not you should replace it: no way to know, and frankly I do not understand what you did to the wiring on the bike (and did not way back when when you described what you had done at the time either) so cannot have any opinion on whether your mods. could have damaged that coil or not. My outright guess would be no but again, without having any understanding of the changes made, that really is only a guess.

They are fairly expensive to purchase as a replacement part but you <may> find one used from a damaged Concours or ZX engine that is being parted out. If you do locate a used one, the odds are very high that it is fine and will work basically forever and so may be worthwhile to change yours out just for piece of mind. ?? So you may want to take a look around at used parts sources and Ebay to see if any are available. You can test one before installing it by checking the resistance of the entire coil- it should be very high but not infinite, and the service manual should give an acceptable range you will find on a good coil.

Brian

For those of you just tuning in I had experienced the dreaded ignition switch problem a little while ago (stuck microswitch).  My "fix" was not entirely elegant and the repair itself resulted in electrical problems that persisted.  I finally removed the Steering Lock Unit (SLU) and repaired the microswitch by shaving off some plastic.  All is well with the SLU now.

The toggle switch that I installed to 'bypass' the faulty SLU microswitch has been removed and the electrical has been restored to original/normal. 

The toggle switch created a short circuit in the Charging System because it was contacting the left rail for the windscreen.  The 30A fuse from the battery was blowing because of the short.  I went around and around trying to find/fix this problem that I had actually installed myself.  You can search for my other posts about it if you need a good laugh.

I have replaced the Voltage Regulator 2 times as a result.  There shouldn't be any more problems with the charging circuit because everything is back to stock now.  What concerns me is the effect that all of this may have had upon the Stator.  The regulator is a load for the stator and I basically destroyed 2 regulators as a result of my prior frankensteinian actions.  What did I do to the stator, if anything?  Did I weaken it to the point that it will fail next?  Should I test it or just replace it?

I would like to hear from anyone with experience or knowledge about testing, replacing the stator.  If the part can be obtained without buying an entire alternator or is an alternator replacement my only option?

Again, the Charging Circuit works fine now.  I'm just concerned that I may have stressed the stator to the point that it will fail prematurely.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: VirginiaJim on October 20, 2017, 02:16:35 pm
They aren't that expensive on ebay...
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Freddy on October 20, 2017, 05:31:54 pm
This is a Triumph 1050 stator. The burnt coil is easily seen - after it's failed.  Often, tho, the burnt coil is not so bad.  A visual inspection may not reveal anything if it's still charging.  My son was just one owner who used to carry a spare when touring.


(https://www.tiger1050.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=30947.0;attach=31632;image)

Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: zrx mitch on October 21, 2017, 09:24:55 am
Tree,

There should be a stator output test described in the Service Manual, I'm away from home so I can't look up the specs. It should describe testing voltage across the wires coming out of the stator and before they get to the regulator/rectifier, and spec a voltage across any combination of 2 of the 3 wires at a specified elevated rpm. All 3 possible combinations should measure approximately the same voltage and the spec may be 60, 70, or 80 volts.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: B.D.F. on October 21, 2017, 09:32:04 am
Yes, that is the problem, the coils change with heat and that could be when it is on the way to failure or just changing color because they get a little warm. Absolutely no way to tell is one is any more likely to fail.

What I go by is the history of the specific alternator on the specific engine / bike, some are well known for cooking alternators and others are not. The C-14 is not known for frying coils, so I would expect any C-14 or ZX stator that was working to keep doing so basically forever.

The entire series of KZ 1300's were notorious for burning up stator coils. The coil was too small and so overloaded all the time and they simply burned up. Kawasaki sort of addressed the problem by adding an entire separate alternator on the other side of the crankcase along with another regulator.... it was kind of a Frankenbike situation but it did work, mostly. Actually I have one of the uber- rare left alternator ass'ys, all the way to the magnets and crankcase cover that holds them. Had to turn a 10mm left- handed bolt to mount the magnet ass'y to the crankshaft; the crankshafts are drilled and tapped from the factory but the bolts are made of pure unobtanium, as are the left- side crankcase covers that set up those engines for dual alternators. If the Truimph suffers from a similar situation, the only solution is to keep a coil on- hand and set up a replacement schedule to hopefully catch each coil before it shorts and quits working outright. This is what some FJR owners do; those coils are known to cook if the electrical system is heavily loaded by the owner, which is a common situation on sport- tourers and tourers due to additional lighting, and heated clothing.

Brian

This is a Triumph 1050 stator. The burnt coil is easily seen - after it's failed.  Often, tho, the burnt coil is not so bad.  A visual inspection may not reveal anything if it's still charging.  My son was just one owner who used to carry a spare when touring.


(https://www.tiger1050.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=30947.0;attach=31632;image)
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on October 21, 2017, 06:20:34 pm
I knew you guys wouldn't let me down.  I appreciate all of the input.  I guess I'm a little gun shy wondering "What next?".  I'm just thankful that my bike is running again.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on October 21, 2017, 06:22:14 pm
BTW, I wasn't ignoring the wit and I appreciated it.  I was wondering if someone was going to comment on the word play.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree.



Sorry, I really have know idea but I couldn't resist using that line.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: mikeyw64 on October 22, 2017, 10:48:46 am
No other ex Kawasaki GPZ500 (Ninja 500 that side of the pond) owners here who had the magnets fall out due to the glue failing then  ;)


Last line first: the stator IS the alternator on the C-14. The only other part of the alternator are the permanent magnets that the stator turns inside of and they are not really anything that fails under any normal conditions.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: B.D.F. on October 22, 2017, 12:01:43 pm
Beats me. But generally permanent magnet alternators just do not suffer from that so I did not consider it. Even if that does happen once in a blue moon, or there were a string of them on a particular model and make of motorcycle, I would consider that an assembly or design failure rather than an actual alternator failure. Hey, permanent magnets can also be demagnetized (kinda' takes the 'permanent' out of permanent magnet, doesn't it?) by heat, mechanical shock and very strong external magnetic fields but again, it is generally not a problem in the real world.

So when a P.M. alternator fails, I would always suspect the coil rather than the magnets. And in this thread, the O.P. was concerned about having overloaded the alternator and the only part it is possible to damage in that context is the coil, not the magnets.

Brian

No other ex Kawasaki GPZ500 (Ninja 500 that side of the pond) owners here who had the magnets fall out due to the glue failing then  ;)
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: mikeyw64 on October 22, 2017, 12:33:41 pm
It was a known problem on the pre 94 Gen 1 bikes, I think there may even have been a factory recall for it

Beats me. But generally permanent magnet alternators just do not suffer from that so I did not consider it. Even if that does happen once in a blue moon, or there were a string of them on a particular model and make of motorcycle, I would consider that an assembly or design failure rather than an actual alternator failure. Hey, permanent magnets can also be demagnetized (kinda' takes the 'permanent' out of permanent magnet, doesn't it?) by heat, mechanical shock and very strong external magnetic fields but again, it is generally not a problem in the real world.

So when a P.M. alternator fails, I would always suspect the coil rather than the magnets. And in this thread, the O.P. was concerned about having overloaded the alternator and the only part it is possible to damage in that context is the coil, not the magnets.

Brian
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on November 24, 2017, 05:30:14 pm
I can't say for sure if the new regulator (VR) has just failed (or what) but I got stranded on the way to work the other day, again.  I had just installed a new VR and was just as happy as can be.  I just recieved another OEM, made in Japan, much more expensive VR ($214).  I am hesitant to install it and call it good because I didn't expect a new one to fail so soon.  It only cost $60 so maybe I "got what I paid for".  Who knows?

I haven't had the time to look into it all week so I will see what's going on this weekend.  In addition to verifying a bad VR I will check the voltage output of the Stator.  It is suppose to put out 50-ish VAC to the VR on 3 phases.  I don't have the gear to check the insulation resistance but I sure would like to know what condition it's in also.  If the stator voltages are OK I'll just slap in the new VR and hope for the best.  If I have the same issue after this I'll replace the stator and VR (again) next.  There's nothing else in the charging circuit.

I'm doing the brake pads and tires too.  I just got over 12,000 miles from a set of Angel GT-A's.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on November 26, 2017, 04:42:42 pm
I assumed something was broken before I actually looked.  When I did finally look I found that the battery had failed so I replaced it (It resembled an orb vs a rectangle).  While I had it out I checked the 30A main line fuse - it was good.  I replaced it anyway.  I reconnected the new battery.

The bike didn't respond to the ignition switch when pressed.  I was meaning to replace the battery in both of my key Fobs anyway so I did that.  Still no response to the key press.  I checked all of the fuses under the seat and found 2 were blown - the 15A for the ECU (fuse box #2, fuse #2) and the 10A for the SMART ECU (KIPASS) (fuse box #3, fuse #3).  I replaced both fuses and they both blew when I reconnected the battery.  I removed both ECU's and replaced the fuses - then reconnected the battery.  The 10A fuse for the SMART ECU blew and the 15A fuse for the ECU did not.  I then installed the ECU and blew its 15A fuse.

So, I have the 10A fuse for the SMART ECU blowing without the SMART ECU connected - and - I have the 15A ECU fuse blowing when I connect the ECU.  That's as far as I got today due to working outside and some liquid weather rolling in.  We need the rain so I have mixed emotions.  I'm going to spend some time looking into this electrical PITA.  If someone has any experience or suggestions I would appreciate the feedback.  Thx.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: B.D.F. on November 26, 2017, 05:04:27 pm
As I remember, you did some re- wiring on the bike to fix something and I did not understand what you had done at that time. If you could go back and again try to explain what you did (not why, just what, exactly, you did) then we may be able to help with a lot more accuracy.

What you have written here simply leads me to believe something in the KiPass 'system' is fried such as the instrument cluster, the ignition switch housing electronics or similar. With no other information, I would suggest unplugging both of those things and again testing both fuses; if they do not open, reconnect one item at a time and again test the fuses until you find the object that is causing the fuse(s) to open. This is 'crowbar' diagnosis and not very accurate; it may NOT be the device you are unplugging / re- plugging in that is actually causing the problem but at least it will isolate the area in which to look.

Brian

I assumed something was broken before I actually looked.  When I did finally look I found that the battery had failed so I replaced it (It resembled an orb vs a rectangle).  While I had it out I checked the 30A main line fuse - it was good.  I replaced it anyway.  I reconnected the new battery.

The bike didn't respond to the ignition switch when pressed.  I was meaning to replace the battery in both of my key Fobs anyway so I did that.  Still no response to the key press.  I checked all of the fuses under the seat and found 2 were blown - the 15A for the ECU (fuse box #2, fuse #2) and the 10A for the SMART ECU (KIPASS) (fuse box #3, fuse #3).  I replaced both fuses and they both blew when I reconnected the battery.  I removed both ECU's and replaced the fuses - then reconnected the battery.  The 10A fuse for the SMART ECU blew and the 15A fuse for the ECU did not.  I then installed the ECU and blew its 15A fuse.

So, I have the 10A fuse for the SMART ECU blowing without the SMART ECU connected - and - I have the 15A ECU fuse blowing when I connect the ECU.  That's as far as I got today due to working outside and some liquid weather rolling in.  We need the rain so I have mixed emotions.  I'm going to spend some time looking into this electrical PITA.  If someone has any experience or suggestions I would appreciate the feedback.  Thx.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Freddy on November 26, 2017, 05:15:16 pm
What he said ^ but I wouldn't suspect the cluster - just everything else you've tampered with.  Back tracking is probably the only way to find the cause. 
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on November 26, 2017, 06:49:25 pm
In a way this is new..  But I can give more background info.  It can't hurt.  Nothing but my pride anyhow. :)

I encountered the "ignition switch - stuck switch" problem a couple of years ago.  The one where the internal switch stuck down and didn't return when the key was released.  I thought that circuit was associated with the White/Brown wire pair that shared one of the two connectors for the Steering Lock Unit (SLU).  My "fix" consisted of bypassing the SLU where those 2 wires entered - assuming that they did actually connect through the sticky switch which is internal to the SLU.  I placed another switch in the circuit and joined the White/Brown wire pair through it.  The bike ran and functioned so I thought nothing more of it until the switch eventually shorted to ground (via the left windscreen rail) and started blowing the 30A main fuse in the charging circuit (which is housed in the starter relay bucket in the battery compartment).  I didn't discover the self-made short for awhile because I am a prideful idiot.  I must have shorted the charging circuit to ground a good number of times.  I don't have a true number of times that I replaced that fuse in my attempts to figure out what I did - hence the idiot comment.

After I got tired of replacing the fuse, and realizing that the switch that I installed was not the correct fix, I eventually restored the white/brown wire pair to the original configuration in the SLU circuit via the connector.  I removed the SLU and sanded off some of the plastic on the internal switch so it wouldn't stick.   I put it back together and it worked.  Yep, should of done that a long time ago.

Months later it broke down again.  The 30A fuse had blown again.  This time I left the SLU alone and looked at the other components in the charging circuit and eventually found a bad Voltage Regulator and replaced it last month.  Back on the road and running fine...  I put a good hurting on the battery through all of this - I shorted it to ground a lot.  It makes sense that it finally failed.  I stressed the hell out of that circuit and everything connected to it.

So the current indications are:
1. The 15A fuse for the ECU blows with the ECU installed.  It does not blow with the ECU removed.
2. The 10A fuse for the KIPASS ECU (SMART) blows with or with out the KIPASS ECU installed.

That is as far as I got.  I'll continue after the weather clears up.  Meanwhile I'm looking at the print and looking for inspiration.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: B.D.F. on November 26, 2017, 08:03:58 pm
OK. That wiring pair powers up the Ign. Housing circuit and the white wire is connected directly to the output of the voltage regulator (rectifier).

I get the 15 amp fuse for ECU as fuse #2 in fusebox #2, and it appears to be powering up the ECU itself but also quite a few other circuits, mostly the coils of relays.
The closest thing I get to your description for the 10 amp fuse is: 'KIPASS signal relay fuse, 10A', Fusebox #3, fuse #1

OR: 'KIPASS fuse 10A', fusebox #3, fuse #3.

I have no fuses marked 'smart'. ??

The first KIPASS fuse, 10A, goes to the KIPASS relay, then to the KIPASS signal diode, which is some kind of non- defined 'secret' box, and then to the front turn signal lights.

The other fuse, KIPASS, 15A, powers up the ECU, the dash display, the steering lock unit, and the first fuse in Fusebox #2, marked 'Fan fuse, 15A', which are the cooling fans. Any chance one of them is jammed? Try to reach in there and see if each one turns freely.

After that, it will be a matter of pulling connectors and checking continuity and then current draw at each of those devices I listed. I do have the pin numbers w/in the connectors at least.

Brian

In a way this is new..  But I can give more background info.  It can't hurt.  Nothing but my pride anyhow. :)

I encountered the "ignition switch - stuck switch" problem a couple of years ago.  The one where the internal switch stuck down and didn't return when the key was released.  I thought that circuit was associated with the White/Brown wire pair that shared one of the two connectors for the Steering Lock Unit (SLU).  My "fix" consisted of bypassing the SLU where those 2 wires entered - assuming that they did actually connect through the sticky switch which is internal to the SLU.  I placed another switch in the circuit and joined the White/Brown wire pair through it.  The bike ran and functioned so I thought nothing more of it until the switch eventually shorted to ground (via the left windscreen rail) and started blowing the 30A main fuse in the charging circuit (which is housed in the starter relay bucket in the battery compartment).  I didn't discover the self-made short for awhile because I am a prideful idiot.  I must have shorted the charging circuit to ground a good number of times.  I don't have a true number of times that I replaced that fuse in my attempts to figure out what I did - hence the idiot comment.

After I got tired of replacing the fuse, and realizing that the switch that I installed was not the correct fix, I eventually restored the white/brown wire pair to the original configuration in the SLU circuit via the connector.  I removed the SLU and sanded off some of the plastic on the internal switch so it wouldn't stick.   I put it back together and it worked.  Yep, should of done that a long time ago.

Months later it broke down again.  The 30A fuse had blown again.  This time I left the SLU alone and looked at the other components in the charging circuit and eventually found a bad Voltage Regulator and replaced it last month.  Back on the road and running fine...  I put a good hurting on the battery through all of this - I shorted it to ground a lot.  It makes sense that it finally failed.  I stressed the hell out of that circuit and everything connected to it.

So the current indications are:
1. The 15A fuse for the ECU blows with the ECU installed.  It does not blow with the ECU removed.
2. The 10A fuse for the KIPASS ECU (SMART) blows with or with out the KIPASS ECU installed.

That is as far as I got.  I'll continue after the weather clears up.  Meanwhile I'm looking at the print and looking for inspiration.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: fartymarty on November 26, 2017, 10:18:13 pm
....then to the KIPASS signal diode, which is some kind of non- defined 'secret' box...

Totally unrelated to the problem that TREE is having, but isn't that just a diode setup that allows the KIPASS flash (all four turn signals) at startup without the left and right turn signals being interconnected during regular signal operation?....not understanding the 'secret' box reference.  ???
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on November 27, 2017, 12:50:26 am
My drawing reference is pages 16-14 & 16-15,  Electrical System Wiring Diagram (ABS Equipped Models).  The drawing is a PDF file that has http://mototh.com (http://mototh.com) on the bottom/footer of the page.  I honestly can't recall where I got it from. (honest).  My bike is a 2008.

Fuse Issue #1:
Fuse box #3, fuse #3 (10A) is labelled SMART on top of the fuse box cover and the drawing refers to it as KIPASS fuse 10A.  Fuse #3 only goes to the KIPASS ECU at 2 different pins as far as the drawing that I have shows.  That fuse blows whether or not the KIPASS ECU is connected or not, so I am doubting the accuracy of the drawing as far as power flow is concerned.

Fuse Issue #2:
Fuse box #2, fuse #2 (15A) for the ECU blows when the ECU is connected.  It does not blow with the ECU disconnected.

That's as far as I got before it started to rain and I had to cover everything up.

Thanks for the replies.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: fartymarty on November 27, 2017, 10:13:05 am
Yes, there is a discrepancy between the label on fuse box #3 and the usually seen online wiring diagram.
I have found that on my 2010 model the label on the fuse box is accurate. (I'm assuming your 2008 looks the same only without a grip heater circuit?)
Here for comparison:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-NKFpq6B/0/9664c3d9/O/i-NKFpq6B.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Npqb2Fk/0/9fcff681/M/i-Npqb2Fk-M.jpg)

ANSWER BACK is the Kipass signal relay fuse. I've never removed the KIPASS fuse (labeled SMART) nor the Oil Control Valve fuse, but I verified the other 4 as being accurate
on the label on the fuse block cover. I've always wanted to see how the bike would run without the OCV fuse but never tested it out of fear of damage to the VVT system. The
usually seen online 2008 wiring diagram doesn't seem to be as accurate as the 2010 diagram (it shows the OCV on the same fuse as the O2 sensor heater? perhaps an EU 2008?).

I think the (2010) wiring diagram is accurate except for fuse box #3 and the numbering on fuse box #2 (mine is labeled 12125 instead of 123456).
 I do believe the diagram is is true to itself, so I think you should start by determining why the the SMART fuse is blowing even when the the KIPASS ECU is disconnected. Must be a short somewhere?
 Perhaps the the fuse for the ECU is blowing through the KIPASS ECU?..that is if only the KIPASS ECU is disconnected does it stop both fuses from blowing?... or does the ECU fuse still blow?
I suppose the short causing the KIPASS fuse to blow could also be in the steering lock unit since you were into that as well right? You might have nicked a wire while you were working on the switch?

I sure hope I haven't muddied the waters here with this post.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: B.D.F. on November 27, 2017, 12:30:48 pm
Yes, that is what flashes the four lights.

But I am a bit put off by the dotted box around the diodes and am reading something into that. ?? Maybe nothing too, I just do not know.

Brian

Totally unrelated to the problem that TREE is having, but isn't that just a diode setup that allows the KIPASS flash (all four turn signals) at startup without the left and right turn signals being interconnected during regular signal operation?....not understanding the 'secret' box reference.  ???
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: B.D.F. on November 27, 2017, 12:34:45 pm
I must have an old schematic because mine looks nothing like that at all.

Thanks for the photo Marty, now I will hunt around and see if I can come up with a schematic that matches those fuse positions and labels.

Tree, ignore my previous posts they are apparently based on the wrong schematic, or the schematic and the actual fuse labeling on the bike are different. Either way, let me see if I can get Marty's photo and <any> schematic to agree before I say anything else.

Brian

Yes, there is a discrepancy between the label on fuse box #3 and the usually seen online wiring diagram.
I have found that on my 2010 model the label on the fuse box is accurate. (I'm assuming your 2008 looks the same only without a grip heater circuit?)
Here for comparison:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-NKFpq6B/0/9664c3d9/O/i-NKFpq6B.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Npqb2Fk/0/9fcff681/M/i-Npqb2Fk-M.jpg)

ANSWER BACK is the Kipass signal relay fuse. I've never removed the KIPASS fuse (labeled SMART) nor the Oil Control Valve fuse, but I verified the other 4 as being accurate
on the label on the fuse block cover. I've always wanted to see how the bike would run without the OCV fuse but never tested it out of fear of damage to the VVT system. The
usually seen online 2008 wiring diagram doesn't seem to be as accurate as the 2010 diagram (it shows the OCV on the same fuse as the O2 sensor heater? perhaps an EU 2008?).

I think the (2010) wiring diagram is accurate except for fuse box #3 and the numbering on fuse box #2 (mine is labeled 12125 instead of 123456).
 I do believe the diagram is is true to itself, so I think you should start by determining why the the SMART fuse is blowing even when the the KIPASS ECU is disconnected. Must be a short somewhere?
 Perhaps the the fuse for the ECU is blowing through the KIPASS ECU?..that is if only the KIPASS ECU is disconnected does it stop both fuses from blowing?... or does the ECU fuse still blow?
I suppose the short causing the KIPASS fuse to blow could also be in the steering lock unit since you were into that as well right? You might have nicked a wire while you were working on the switch?

I sure hope I haven't muddied the waters here with this post.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on November 27, 2017, 07:39:24 pm
I'm still looking at the print too.  Not much to it.  I can't get to troubleshooting it tonight but I did manage to grab a can of contact cleaner.  Thanks for the clarification on the fuse box cover Marty - and mine is different from what you have.  The SMART fuse is in position 3 on my '08 like it says on the print.

Thanks for giving this a look Brian.  Much appreciated.

Hey, the rain stopped!
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on November 28, 2017, 06:27:19 pm
The right side connector (viewed from the front) is blowing the 15A fuse for the ECU.  I ran out of fuses.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: maxtog on November 28, 2017, 08:24:05 pm
The right side connector (viewed from the front) is blowing the 15A fuse for the ECU.  I ran out of fuses.

Oh, that's easy, just use a coin!   :stirpot:   :yikes:
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: VirginiaJim on November 29, 2017, 05:57:08 am
Or tinfoil.   I nearly torched a car using that method.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: B.D.F. on November 29, 2017, 06:32:07 am
What stopped it, run out of tinfoil?

Remember, you have to use 'copious amounts' for it to reach the full rating....

(https://i.imgur.com/gyODaEt.jpg)

Brian

Or tinfoil.   I nearly torched a car using that method.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on November 29, 2017, 01:21:26 pm
What stopped it, run out of tinfoil?

Remember, you have to use 'copious amounts' for it to reach the full rating....

(https://i.imgur.com/gyODaEt.jpg)

Brian

Or tinfoil.   I nearly torched a car using that method.
Oh, that's easy, just use a coin!   :stirpot:   :yikes:

If the "Burn Through" method was feasible I would give it some thought.  But, no, that's not an option for me.  Nice try.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: B.D.F. on November 29, 2017, 02:49:52 pm
Yeah, it is always fun to post / see that drawing, well at least it is for me- I really like the 'slow- blow' feature of the bolt.  ;D  And it is a valid testing method too; take out the fuse, replace it with one of those replacement items, remove the battery and instead use a DC, constant current welder (stick or TIG power supply, not MIG which is constant voltage, at least the short- arc MIG welders most people can get to), set the machine for 200 or more amps, and turn it on. Wait a bit and something will glow and melt- there is your culprit! If inside of something else, such as a partition wall of a house, it will take longer to find but just as easy: watch carefully exactly where the firefighters are paying the most attention to and sending the water and again, you got the problem!

But back to your situation, I have been chewing on an idea to limit the amount of current going through a circuit so that you can power the system up and keep it powered up while you disconnect different things. The crude but inexpensive and very easy way of doing that is to use a tungsten light bulb, something like an taillight or interior lamp from a car would do. Just put the two legs of the bulb where the fuse would be and the light will turn on and should stay on; then start pulling component blocks off the harness and when you get the right one, the lamp will go out. Simple, cheap and absolutely valid as a testing tool.

I really cannot think of anything 'slick' or clever or anything that will reduce the troubleshooting time and difficultly. You are just going to have to remove things until you find the source of the short, and then further chase it down to the exact cause, such as will be possible. For example, if a wire is shorted going from the ECU, it is going to have to be pinned out and tested, which will be tedious at best. If it appears to be the ECU itself, you really will simply not know for sure unless you swap it out for another and of course that is going to be expensive and a little risky 'cause if it is NOT the ECU and you swap it, you may fry the trial ECU also.

Sorry to bring this as my best idea but I cannot figure out a way around it. ??

Brian

If the "Burn Through" method was feasible I would give it some thought.  But, no, that's not an option for me.  Nice try.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: VirginiaJim on November 29, 2017, 04:44:51 pm
If the "Burn Through" method was feasible I would give it some thought.  But, no, that's not an option for me.  Nice try.


Gee willikers, you're no fun at all.. ;)
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on November 29, 2017, 06:56:36 pm
Since the fuses blow when the DFI ECU and KIPASS ECU are plugged in and they don't blow when I disconnect them I figured that the ECU's must be the problem.  I certainly didn't want them to be IT but I have to follow my indications.  I measured the resistances from pins that get battery voltage to ones that connect to ground on each ECU.  This is what I found:

KIPASS ECU (OHMS)
Ground Pin - Battery Pin

5 - 7 = 0.4
5 - 20 = 1000
5 - 24 = 0.4
22 - 7 = 0.4
22 - 20 = 1000
22 - 24 = 0.4

DFI ECU (OHMS)

21 - 35 = 470
21 - 44 = 0.4
22 - 35 = 470
22- 44 = 0.4
52 - 35 = 470
52 - 44 = 0.4

Power connections should not connect directly to ground.  Right?  So, it appears that the electrical distribution went sideways when the battery failed and the ECU's failed as a result?  I can't think of anything else.  If anyone would care to verify my pinouts are correct I would appreciate it.  Also, if anyone is brave enough to check a "spare" ECU to get a benchmark I would like to know those numbers.

It looks like I will be replacing these ECU's.  Crap.

(I just noticed the sticker on the DFI ECU, I had it flashed in MAY.  Steve's flash is gone too.)
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: maxtog on November 29, 2017, 07:51:43 pm
So, it appears that the electrical distribution went sideways when the battery failed and the ECU's failed as a result?  I can't think of anything else.

It is possible that there are things that go through the ECU bus, once it is connected, that could be the problem and not the ECU, itself.  But you are right that it doesn't look very good, I would probably jump to the same conclusion you did.  I don't have much experience troubleshooting vehicle electronics- it can be really complicated.  But I don't think a battery failure of any type [excluding an explosion] would cause ECU damage, unless the voltage went really high- and that is not typically how any battery is going to fail.  Low voltage typically will not damage most electronics.  Sending too much power through a sensor or data wire- that could do it, however.  And such things point back to the harness and the things connected to it that are also connected to the ECU.  And there are likely quite a few things connected.

Quote
(I just noticed the sticker on the DFI ECU, I had it flashed in MAY.  Steve's flash is gone too.)

If it became necessary, it is possible that Steve might only charge you shipping and perhaps a handling fee to put the flash back on a replacement ECU, since it is more like you already bought a license to use it.  Of course I can't speak for him...  there might be people who would or have tried to scam him claiming such things (not saying you would ever do such a thing).  Likely he would take such matters on a case-by-case basis, so don't assume the worst.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: B.D.F. on November 30, 2017, 01:26:48 am
Solid state electronics are current- direction sensitive, so must be checked with an Ohmmeter using the Red test lead on the 'in' points and the black test lead on the 'out' points for a valid reading. A diode in the way will yield false readings, So your ECU reading of pins 21 to 44 should be checked the other way, from pin 44 to 21.

And checked that way, no, it should not read 0.4 Ohms. Given a nominal 12 volts, that would allow 30 amps to flow through that circuit, which is far too high.

I assume you are checking the ECU's alone, with NOTHING attached to them, right?

Brian

Since the fuses blow when the DFI ECU and KIPASS ECU are plugged in and they don't blow when I disconnect them I figured that the ECU's must be the problem.  I certainly didn't want them to be IT but I have to follow my indications.  I measured the resistances from pins that get battery voltage to ones that connect to ground on each ECU.  This is what I found:

KIPASS ECU (OHMS)
Ground Pin - Battery Pin

5 - 7 = 0.4
5 - 20 = 1000
5 - 24 = 0.4
22 - 7 = 0.4
22 - 20 = 1000
22 - 24 = 0.4

DFI ECU (OHMS)

21 - 35 = 470
21 - 44 = 0.4
22 - 35 = 470
22- 44 = 0.4
52 - 35 = 470
52 - 44 = 0.4

Power connections should not connect directly to ground.  Right?  So, it appears that the electrical distribution went sideways when the battery failed and the ECU's failed as a result?  I can't think of anything else.  If anyone would care to verify my pinouts are correct I would appreciate it.  Also, if anyone is brave enough to check a "spare" ECU to get a benchmark I would like to know those numbers.

It looks like I will be replacing these ECU's.  Crap.

(I just noticed the sticker on the DFI ECU, I had it flashed in MAY.  Steve's flash is gone too.)
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: gPink on November 30, 2017, 04:03:44 am
How can you tell the reflash is gone? And if it's gone there would be nothing in it's place so the ecu would be effectively brain dead wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: fartymarty on November 30, 2017, 05:33:15 am
I assume you are checking the ECU's alone, with NOTHING attached to them, right?
Kind of important, this part.
How can you tell the reflash is gone? And if it's gone there would be nothing in it's place so the ecu would be effectively brain dead wouldn't it?

I think he means, if the ECU is gone (internally teats up) so is the money he spent on a reflash.

If it became necessary, it is possible that Steve might only charge you shipping and perhaps a handling fee to put the flash back on a replacement ECU, since it is more like you already bought a license to use it.

If I recall correctly, in addition to the labor and intellectual property payment, Steve also has to pay some sort of fee to someone else for each flash performed so don't get your hopes up for a postage only reflash. Of course, one of the cheapest ways to check the ECU is to send it in to a reflash facility (Like Steve) and see if it looks normal to them on the equipment? (it must be obvious at this point that I have no idea what's involved with reflashing an ECU).

If (and I'm not saying that's the case just yet) both of the ECUs need replacing (and perhaps associated dealer labor to set up FOBs and TPSM software?) on a 2008 model, it might be $marter to think about parting it out and look for a newer used model.

Best wishes to you Tree, hopefully your inspections will find something obvious to fix and all these speculations will be just mental exercises on all of our parts. Hang in there.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: VirginiaJim on November 30, 2017, 05:57:30 am

If I recall correctly, in addition to the labor and intellectual property payment, Steve also has to pay some sort of fee to someone else for each flash performed so don't get your hopes up for a postage only reflash. Of course, one of the cheapest ways to check the ECU is to send it in to a reflash facility (Like Steve) and see if it looks normal to them on the equipment? (it must be obvious at this point that I have no idea what's involved with reflashing an ECU).



You know, that's a good idea if you're not sure of the status of the ECU (send it to Steve)(Let him know first of all).  He might be able to at least say it's ok or not.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: gPink on November 30, 2017, 07:06:36 am

I think he means, if the ECU is gone (internally teats up) so is the money he spent on a reflash.

Thanks Marty. Makes more sense that way.  ::)
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: VirginiaJim on November 30, 2017, 07:19:02 am
And how would someone know that by looking at it?
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: fartymarty on November 30, 2017, 07:51:25 am

And how would someone know that by looking at it?

Well, he did look at it through the eyes of an ohm meter, but the question remains was it hooked up to the bike's circuitry or was it disconnected.....and whatever else Brian said  :-\ :)...

Solid state electronics are current- direction sensitive, so must be checked with an Ohmmeter using the Red test lead on the 'in' points and the black test lead on the 'out' points for a valid reading. A diode in the way will yield false readings, So your ECU reading of pins 21 to 44 should be checked the other way, from pin 44 to 21.

And checked that way, no, it should not read 0.4 Ohms. Given a nominal 12 volts, that would allow 30 amps to flow through that circuit, which is far too high.

I assume you are checking the ECU's alone, with NOTHING attached to them, right?

Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: VirginiaJim on November 30, 2017, 08:06:46 am
Unless you have some sort of tester you can hook up to it like a KDS tool possibly, there's no way of knowing it's bad or not.  Course if there's a great big hole in it, that's pretty self apparent.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on November 30, 2017, 09:46:15 am
I chose to not quote every reply because that would clutter this reply.  Thanks for everyone's interest and participation in this thread.

The ECU's were removed from the bike prior to testing.  I didn't bother with reverse polarity tests because a short circuit across a power connection is a short circuit across a power connection - blown fuses provided the initial indicator of a problem.  I will see if my local shop has a tester to verify what I have concluded.

I did imply that I had also lost the $$$ I spent on the flash on the DFI ECU.  I only had it a few short months and I was very happy with it.

I could provide a total of the $$$ that I had recently spent on the bike to keep it going but I'll just list what I have recently done:

Valve adjustment.
New Tires, zero miles on them.
New Front Brakes, zero miles on them.
New Battery.
2 Voltage Regulators replaced.

I don't know if I have the stamina to replace the ECU's.  I certainly don't have the spare $$$.  I don't know what I'm going to do but I need to restore or replace the bike.  One of the two.  That's where I'm at.

I would be interested with speaking to anyone who has a source for used DFI and KIPASS ECU's.  Maybe someone who is parting out a Connie.  Mine is a 2008.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on November 30, 2017, 06:32:52 pm
I have decided to get some modules from ebay.  I don't think the DFI ECU will pose any problem.  It's plug-N-play I think.

The KIPASS ECU will be different tho.  I don't know the process besides taking the bike to a shop that has KDS and having them sync/register it.  Do I need to replace my FOB's too or can my existing ones be "learned" by the replacement KIPASS ECU?

Can someone give me some info on what to expect or what I need to do?
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: B.D.F. on November 30, 2017, 09:30:51 pm
If you swap ECU and / or KiPass ECU, the bike will need to be attached to KDS and 'set straight'.

If you replace the KiPass ECU, you can still use your RFID fobs, again once the ignition switch housing circuity is programmed to recognize them but you will require the activation number for the RF (full function, battery operated, fobs) fobs, which almost no one ever has with existing fobs. No way to retreive the number from the old KiPass ECU either; you either have it written down or not and with most people, it is 'not'. As 2008's came with two RF fobs, you will most likely want to replace at least one, which is somewhat expensive at around $200+ for the hardware plus programming.

Brian

I have decided to get some modules from ebay.  I don't think the DFI ECU will pose any problem.  It's plug-N-play I think.

The KIPASS ECU will be different tho.  I don't know the process besides taking the bike to a shop that has KDS and having them sync/register it.  Do I need to replace my FOB's too or can my existing ones be "learned" by the replacement KIPASS ECU?

Can someone give me some info on what to expect or what I need to do?
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on December 01, 2017, 05:29:12 pm
If you swap ECU and / or KiPass ECU, the bike will need to be attached to KDS and 'set straight'.

If you replace the KiPass ECU, you can still use your RFID fobs, again once the ignition switch housing circuity is programmed to recognize them but you will require the activation number for the RF (full function, battery operated, fobs) fobs, which almost no one ever has with existing fobs. No way to retreive the number from the old KiPass ECU either; you either have it written down or not and with most people, it is 'not'. As 2008's came with two RF fobs, you will most likely want to replace at least one, which is somewhat expensive at around $200+ for the hardware plus programming.

Brian


I got the bike used from a Dealer.  I didn't know about the KIPASS registration numbers so I didn't ask, I got 2 full function FOB's sans numbers.  So the FOB's that I have are now useless because the ECU that they were paired with is also useless.  I intend to replace the KIPASS ECU, purchase one new FOB, and pair them together using the new registration number that comes with the FOB.  Is that what has to be done or am I still missing something?
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: fartymarty on December 01, 2017, 10:34:17 pm
With any luck, the replacement KIPASS will come with at least one active FOB already registered. Don't toss your old FOBs
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but your old FOBs are only useless in the active mode. Each one should have an passive RFID chip in them which can be programmed to the replacement KIPASS ECU. Great backups to have on hand or at least back home to be expressed overnight to where ever you are stranded and FOB-less (for what ever reason).
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: B.D.F. on December 01, 2017, 11:19:04 pm
What Marty said.

Almost no one has the number that was on the package the fobs came in when they were new; I bought my bike new in '07 and never got those numbers.

But the RFID portion of the fob could be made to work on a different bike, and besides, they are keyed to the circuitry inside the ign. switch housing anyway, not the KiPass ECU.

Also, if you do buy a new KiPass ECU, it comes with one passive (RFID) and one active (RF) fob, or two active (RF) fobs anyway, depending on what year KiPass ECU you buy. And they are already coded to work with the ECU, though the passive part will have to have the bike coded to acknowledge them.

If you buy a used KiPass ECU, figure how many, if any, fobs come with it into the price. So perhaps $300 for a working ECU is not so bad if it comes with one active fob, and really not bad if it come with two. But perhaps $250 is high if it comes with no fobs at all. After all these years, they MUST be showing up in scrap yards by now; they should all be working regardless of what caused the bike's demise so they <should> be available I would think.

Best of luck.

Brian

I got the bike used from a Dealer.  I didn't know about the KIPASS registration numbers so I didn't ask, I got 2 full function FOB's sans numbers.  So the FOB's that I have are now useless because the ECU that they were paired with is also useless.  I intend to replace the KIPASS ECU, purchase one new FOB, and pair them together using the new registration number that comes with the FOB.  Is that what has to be done or am I still missing something?
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on December 04, 2017, 08:56:17 pm
I don't know if I should start a new thread or what.  I got used ECU's for KIPASS and DFI.  The KIPASS didn't come with a FOB and I am tempted to return it but I am intrigued by another option.  The links below belong to companies that do all sorts of things related to ignition controllers and such.  One is in Australia and the other in the Netherlands.  I have reached out to them to get more information.  Let's just see where this goes, shall we?

https://www.carmo.nl/index.php?main_page=index (https://www.carmo.nl/index.php?main_page=index)

http://ecumeistro.com/ (http://ecumeistro.com/)
Title: ECU Replacement / Repair
Post by: Tree on December 15, 2017, 11:17:11 am
Update to a fairly frustrating problem.

My efforts related to getting my busted KIPASS ECU and DFI ECU repaired have fallen short at this time.  I found plenty of companies that repair immobilizer and fuel ECUs for automobiles and some that advertise motorcycle ECU repair (One is in the Netherlands and another in Australia).  I also found some INCONUS but none that want to or can do repairs- only registration/flashing.

So, here is what I have:

1. A KIPASS ECU with a shorted diode in the 12VDC input power circuit.  The diode is accessible.  I have 2 Fobs linked to it.  Fixing this ECU is my most desired option.
2. A DFI ECU with a shorted diode in the 12VDC input power circuit.  I trashed it in an attempt to get to the diode.  The tar that it is potted in proved too much to handle and I mangled it.
3. A KIPASS ECU purchased used from eBay.  I do not have any key Fobs for this ECU and I don't know if it actually works.
4. A DFI ECU purchased used from eBay.  I don't know if this works either.

I understand that without Fob-specific registration numbers I can't use my existing Fobs with a replacement KIPASS ECU and I don't have those numbers.  As a potential workaround I'm looking for a company that can, perhaps, link new Fobs to the used eBay KIPASS ECU (or use my existing Fobs?).  Then I can trailer my bike to the local Stealer to get it all synchronized using KDS3.  That's one possibility.  The other, much more expensive option, is to purchase a new KIPASS ECU / 2 FOB combo and have the Stealer set that up with KDS3.

If I have other options that you can think of I would like to hear about them.
Title: Re: ECU Replacement / Repair
Post by: B.D.F. on December 15, 2017, 11:27:19 am
You will not be able to use your existing RF fobs because you do not know the original registration number.

Also, without at least one valid fob, no new fobs can be added to the KiPass ECU. There are no work- arounds for this though about every 18 months, someone 'finds one' and reports it on the forum. After a bunch of tail- chasing..... nope, that one does not work either. The basic problem in the way is that the mfg. (Mitsubishi) provided no way around this 'no current fob, no new fob' feature of the system so third party hackers certainly cannot provide one.

Outside chance that you <may> be able to get the KiPass ECU installed into the bike with the KDS software and then you <may> be able to use the RFID portion of the system, with your existing fobs, to allow the system to be programmed to accept other RF fobs. This one is shaky and I have little confidence in it but it just may be a back door (Boys) method that works. Of course you will still need either new, or used RF fobs w/ the proper reference number that goes with them to use the system that way, with a fob being some feet away from the bike and KiPass ECU. Otherwise, you could continue to use the RFID chip in your existing fobs to unlock the system by holding them against the ignition switch housing each time you want to start the bike, provided the above stated method even allows the used KiPass ECU to be installed and recognized by the bike in the first place.

A final option with no working RF fobs but a working RFID fob is to glue the RFID chip to the boss on the ignition switch housing and then simply take the key out of the ignition when you leave the bike. This method will not allow you to lock the forks to the left, and you really should put some kind of cover over the ign. switch key opening or lots of rain will get in there but it does work.

Brian

Update to a fairly frustrating problem.

My efforts related to getting my busted KIPASS ECU and DFI ECU repaired have fallen short at this time.  I found plenty of companies that repair immobilizer and fuel ECUs for automobiles and some that advertise motorcycle ECU repair (One is in the Netherlands and another in Australia).  I also found some INCONUS but none that want to or can do repairs- only registration/flashing.

So, here is what I have:

1. A KIPASS ECU with a shorted diode in the 12VDC input power circuit.  The diode is accessible.  I have 2 Fobs linked to it.  Fixing this ECU is my most desired option.
2. A DFI ECU with a shorted diode in the 12VDC input power circuit.  I trashed it in an attempt to get to the diode.  The tar that it is potted in proved too much to handle and I mangled it.
3. A KIPASS ECU purchased used from eBay.  I do not have any key Fobs for this ECU.
4. A DFI ECU purchased used from eBay.

I understand that without Fob-specific registration numbers I can't use my existing Fobs with a replacement KIPASS ECU and I don't have those numbers.  As a potential workaround I'm looking for a company that can, perhaps, link new Fobs to the used eBay KIPASS ECU (or use my existing Fobs?).  Then I can trailer my bike to the local Stealer to get it all synchronized using KDS3.  That's one possibility.  The other, much more expensive option, is to purchase a new KIPASS ECU / 2 FOB combo and have the Stealer set that up with KDS3.

If I have other options that you can think of I would like to hear about them.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on December 15, 2017, 11:44:17 am
I think I understand.  The transponder in the SLU will recognize the RF chip inside of my Fobs so I should be able to "unlock" and satisfy that portion of the immobilizer function.  What about the used eBay DFI ECU?  Wouldn't I still get an error when the KIPASS ECU queries the DFI?  That would still leave me with an immobile bike, right?  Please tell me I'm wrong, I can take it.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: B.D.F. on December 15, 2017, 12:50:11 pm
I do not <think> the ECU (the real ECU, or what you are calling the DFI I think) is going to be the problem with the hardware you have described.

The hinge point of how this is going to go is: Mitsubishi has purposefully made MISTY (the encryption and verification system that Kawasaki uses inside what they call KiPass) ECU inert once there are no more valid fobs available. This is for security purposes (and before the natives get all restless, I am not saying it is good or bad, needed or not, merely that that is what it is). So Mitsubishi has pretty much sewn up swapping the KiPass ECU without any valid fobs and then adding any. BUT, and this is a big but, there is a very slim chance that Kawasaki (not Mitsubishi in their MISTY system) has left a crack you can sneak through IF KiPass will allow the new KiPass ECU to be validated and programmed to work with the ignition switch security system, which is totally separate from the 'other' part of KiPass (the KiPass ECU and associated fobs, ect.) without a valid fob for the KiPass ECU. Now as I said, I kind of doubt this will really work but if it does, then your existing fobs can be used in the RFID mode to satisfy the KiPass ECU, through the CANbus link to the ign. switch. circuitry, that it has been authenticated and then you can program the KiPass ECU itself to recognize new fobs.

What I believe you are going to have to do is though is this: get and install a working ECU acceptable for your year C-14. Get a working KiPass ECU WITH at least one RF fob the KiPass ECU has been programmed to work with and install that. Then use or have someone else use the KDS software to validate all three units on the bike, ECU, KiPass ECU and Ignition switch housing validation circuitry, with each other so that both sides of KiPass, the actual RF ECU as well as the RFID ign. sw. housing circuit can validate the engine control ECU to actually start the bike.

So one of those two descriptions is what you will have to do, and I <think> it is going to be the second one but as I said, three is a chance you <may> be able to authenticate the newly installed KiPass ECU with the existing fob(s) that with authenticate the ign. switch housing security circuit.

KiPass (MISTY) is tough- not like 'dem 'dare wussy NSA, CIA or Credit bureau computers that hackers seem to violate at will.  ;D ;)

Brian

I think I understand.  The transponder in the SLU will recognize the RF chip inside of my Fobs so I should be able to "unlock" and satisfy that portion of the immobilizer function.  What about the used eBay DFI ECU?  Wouldn't I still get an error when the KIPASS ECU queries the DFI?  That would still leave me with an immobile bike, right?  Please tell me I'm wrong, I can take it.
Title: Re: ECU Replacement / Repair
Post by: Freddy on December 15, 2017, 06:06:30 pm
Update to a fairly frustrating problem.

My efforts related to getting my busted KIPASS ECU and DFI ECU repaired have fallen short at this time.  I found plenty of companies that repair immobilizer and fuel ECUs for automobiles and some that advertise motorcycle ECU repair (One is in the Netherlands and another in Australia).  I also found some INCONUS but none that want to or can do repairs- only registration/flashing.
snip>



Perhaps you tried him but from what BDF says he can't do it.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Kawasaki-GTR1400-06-12-Key-Coding-Service-Lock-Set-ECU-ECM-Programming/262629449056?hash=item3d25ef5d60:g:BT4AAOxySfBR66Dx (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Kawasaki-GTR1400-06-12-Key-Coding-Service-Lock-Set-ECU-ECM-Programming/262629449056?hash=item3d25ef5d60:g:BT4AAOxySfBR66Dx)

A bike wrecker here is advertising a top triple clamp with lock, key, active & passive fobs.   I've emailed him to ask if he has the ECUs for you.  I'll PM you the answer if positive.

Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 15, 2017, 07:05:27 pm
The DFI ecu is the least of your worries here. Just buy a used one that has the same PN as yours... 21175- (0131; 0368, etc) once you get the bike to the point that it could start, you'll need to use the kds unit to "recognize" the new dfi ecu. Easy peasy. I have a kds unit and have done this several times... I can run 2 different ecu's in my bike just by swapping them out. Steve
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on December 15, 2017, 07:38:06 pm
Perhaps you tried him but from what BDF says he can't do it.

[url]http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Kawasaki-GTR1400-06-12-Key-Coding-Service-Lock-Set-ECU-ECM-Programming/262629449056?hash=item3d25ef5d60:g:BT4AAOxySfBR66Dx[/url] ([url]http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Kawasaki-GTR1400-06-12-Key-Coding-Service-Lock-Set-ECU-ECM-Programming/262629449056?hash=item3d25ef5d60:g:BT4AAOxySfBR66Dx[/url])

A bike wrecker here is advertising a top triple clamp with lock, key, active & passive fobs.   I've emailed him to ask if he has the ECUs for you.  I'll PM you the answer if positive.




Thanks Freddy!  I would have no problem with replacing everything with a known/operational set.  SLU, KIPASS ECU w/fobs, and DFI ECU. :chugbeer:
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: lather on December 17, 2017, 07:41:14 am
Thanks Freddy!  I would have no problem with replacing everything with a known/operational set.  SLU, KIPASS ECU w/fobs, and DFI ECU. :chugbeer:
If you find what you need PM me with the price you are willing to pay and I will see if I can beat it.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Freddy on December 17, 2017, 08:16:19 pm
If you have all the parts it would seem better if Tree gets em from you as the seller over here doesn't have the KIPASS ecu, which makes what he does have useless.

Question:  Is a used KIPASS ECU, fobs and key lock from a (wrecked) bike interchangeable between different years?  I believe some of the items have different p/n for year but would that preclude a full system changeover - as in an owner lost both fobs - with KDS3?
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: B.D.F. on December 18, 2017, 05:45:28 am
I do not believe so, not all years interchange. But I am not 100% certain.

The other problem, at least with early C-14's, is that those sold in the US did NOT have O2 sensors in them, while those sold elsewhere did. And so the ECU's are different, even in the same year, 2008 models, for example. Also, the KiPass system is on a different frequency in the US vs. the the rest of the world, I believe we use 315 MHz, while non- US bikes use 435 (I think) MHz. Which means that while the KiPass ECU may work on the bike, the tire pressure sensors will not be read by the KiPass ECU and so they will not work.

Personally, I would just avoid swapping between countries because there are known differences, plus there could well be other, unknown, differences such as how the pulse stream sent to the speedo, tach. Because non- US bikes use KPH, it might be that crossing the two systems could end up with the needles on those gauges pointing to the wrong rotation point, meaning both vehicle and engines speed could be off, and possibly WAY off.

Brian

If you have all the parts it would seem better if Tree gets em from you as the seller over here doesn't have the KIPASS ecu, which makes what he does have useless.

Question:  Is a used KIPASS ECU, fobs and key lock from a (wrecked) bike interchangeable between different years?  I believe some of the items have different p/n for year but would that preclude a full system changeover - as in an owner lost both fobs - with KDS3?
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Freddy on December 18, 2017, 05:43:19 pm
Great info thanks Brian.  Though I'm aware of the difference I hadn't thought of the TPMS frequency issue. 
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: B.D.F. on December 19, 2017, 03:51:05 am
Well, it is just muddy waters and all. One more thing to complicate an already confusing issue, and best to be avoided IMO. That is assuming someone just wants the bike to work; if tinkering around and interested in learning things than by all means tinker away and enjoy (that is what I often do but it takes a lot of time and often does not result in moving forward).

Brian

Great info thanks Brian.  Though I'm aware of the difference I hadn't thought of the TPMS frequency issue.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on December 20, 2017, 11:14:56 am
I have a used eBay DFI ECU that I plan on sending to Steve.  I will install it first and have it sync'd (KDS3) to verify that it operates my bike per Steve's recomendation.  If it checks out on the road then I will purchase the Mountain Runner Flash.  This can't happen until I get an operational KIPASS ECU of course. 

I just shipped the broken KIPASS ECU off to these guys:

                PSI REPAIR SERVICES, INC
                11900  MAYFIELD
                LIVONIA,  MI  48150
                ATTN: REPAIRS

If they can replace the shorted diode then I will put everything back together and check for smoke.  PSI said that they won't charge me a diagnostic fee.  Their basic repair charge is around $175 and will result in an approximate recovery cost of $250 when everything is added up.  Then I'll have the dealer hook it up to KDS3 and sync the 'new' DFI ECU to the KIPASS system.  Oh yeah, the dealer effort will cost about $100.  So make it $350.  No, wait.  I have to rent a trailer to get my bike to the dealer.  Add another $50.  OK, $400 total for the KIPASS stuff.  The DFI ECU recovery will total approximately $550 (used ECU and replace the flash).  Yep, that's $950 or so.

If the broken KIPASS ECU is beyond economical repair then I will have to get another one.  I'm still looking around for a used one w/fobs.  If I can't locate a used KIPASS ECU in the time it takes PSI to evaluate and attempt to repair the broken unit then I will probably take out a loan (Credit Card) and buy a new KIPASS ECU set.  I've seen them priced from $950 to $1200.

Yes, this experience has been a PITA but I learned a ton.  I can't count the number of times I have been advised to scrap the bike and "part it out".  My friends don't understand that this is just a bump along this road that I'm on.  Most of them don't ride and I can't adequately explain why I am so adamant about getting back on 2 wheels - on this motorcycle.  I'll see this through and keep the thread going until my bike is back on the road.  It makes for interesting reading at the very least.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: gPink on December 20, 2017, 11:55:35 am
Endeavor to persevere.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: VirginiaJim on December 20, 2017, 04:30:26 pm
+1
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Freddy on December 20, 2017, 05:35:18 pm
+ 1 more.   :chugbeer:
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: maxtog on December 20, 2017, 08:34:19 pm
Yep, don't let anyone push you away from your Concours.  How can a non-motorcylist possibly understand our bond?
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on February 08, 2018, 05:45:55 pm
But wait, it gets better!

And, yes, it has been a long, long, long time since the last installment to this thread.  I haven't rode this bike since November of last year.

Here goes:

I am still waiting for PSI to return a repaired KIPASS ECU to me.  The cost is $400 with no warranty.  Awesome (not really).

You may recall that I had abused the electrical system on my Connie to the point that the battery failed and took the bike down hard.  I have since replaced the DFI ECU with a used EBAY version.  The KIPASS ECU is brand new and came complete with 2 fobs with registration numbers.  I just got it back from the shop where they hooked it up to KDS3 and got all the new/used ECU's to cooperate.  The procedure was successful but not without complications.  The mechanic said that the bike is now throwing ABS related codes (43, 52, 53, and 55) so I am not out of the woods just yet.

I rode it home this morning.  In addition to the ABS light remaining lit I have observed the following:
- No speedo indication, it doesn't even flinch
- Turn signals don't work, the light comes on solid on the cluster
- The trip odometers don't work, the LCD display works - the number doesn't increment

That's all I had time to notice because I parked/covered it and left for work.  I pulled out my greasy/torn owners manual (pdf version) and dug into the first problem - ABS.  Did you know that there is an ABS ECU?  I didn't.  It's inside the Hydraulic Unit.  That makes 4 ECUs that I know of (KIPASS, DFI, SLU, and ABS).  Based on what I have read so far the Hydraulic unit may also be toast.  In the event that I do need to replace it does anyone know what the part number is?

Anyhow, I am not surprised that there are other electrical issues that are popping up.  I am experiencing something similar to when my house was struck by lighting many years ago.  The electrical transient fried every electrical/electronic thing in my house.  I will look into the instrument cluster next.

On the bright side?  I didn't blow any fuses.  Can I get a hell yeah?
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: VirginiaJim on February 08, 2018, 05:47:03 pm
Hell Yeah!
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on February 08, 2018, 05:50:00 pm
Hell Yeah!

Sweet.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on February 08, 2018, 07:19:46 pm
Can I just replace the electronics on the ABS pump?  It appears that it may be possible based on what I read in related posts.  And, if it is possible, does anyone have a pump where I can cannibalize the electronics or know of a source?
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Freddy on February 08, 2018, 08:54:09 pm
ABS fault code 52 & 53 are for low and high voltages and are probably historic given your troubles.  55 is for 'ECU trouble (ECU operation abnormal)' and may or may not be historic.  43 is 'Front wheel rotation sensor wiring abnormal (wiring shorted or open)' and may active.  There is a simple procedure for clearing stored fault codes in the ABS unit.  Do that, then do a short ride to see what the current active fault code is as the others will not show.

The following may give some helpful info.  Let's know if more needed.

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21794.msg270762#msg270762 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21794.msg270762#msg270762)

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=20676.105 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=20676.105)

http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/2008-concours-14-abs-issue/ (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/2008-concours-14-abs-issue/)
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Freddy on February 08, 2018, 08:58:45 pm

I rode it home this morning.  In addition to the ABS light remaining lit I have observed the following:
- No speedo indication, it doesn't even flinch
- Turn signals don't work, the light comes on solid on the cluster
- The trip odometers don't work, the LCD display works - the number doesn't increment


Given that the speedo & trip meters don't work I'd suspect a faulty sensor on the drive line and perhaps a faulty flasher relay.  I'd try used items.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: maxtog on February 08, 2018, 09:35:47 pm
Wow- that is just a lot of stuff that apparently got fried.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on February 08, 2018, 09:54:15 pm
Wow- that is just a lot of stuff that apparently got fried.

I haven't really had a chance to properly check the bike out since I got it out of the shop either.  I'm sure there is more.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Freddy on February 09, 2018, 12:02:40 am
does anyone have a pump where I can cannibalize the electronics or know of a source?

Only someone that had the dreaded rear brake failure issue and has replaced it.  They're available on ebay and those earlier posts of mine with links show that a European ASB unit from a 2006-2011 ZZR1400 (ZX14) bike will do the job.

Good luck with it and seems you're doing a great job after traumatic experiences.   :chugbeer:
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on February 09, 2018, 02:52:48 pm
It's so nice to have a hobby. [insert sarcastic smiley here]

Recent findings:
- No headlights, low or high.  The smaller lights are out also.  With the motor running or not. (relay? Signal?)
- When the turn indicator or emergency flasher switch is actuated the front and rear lights do not come on, but... there is a buzzing sound that appears to be coming from the KIPASS ECU. The buzz  stops when the turn indicator/hazard switches are returned to normal. What? (This I do not get a warm N fuzzy feeling from)
- When the key is pushed and turned to ON I see some reaction from the cluster LCD display and gauges. Key switch symbol shows up, the speedo and tach needles sweep full to the right and come back to zero, the LCD can be manually cycled through all screens/sub-screens with the black push-buttons.  I think the cluster is functioning OK.  The speedo doesn't indicate speed when the bike is driven which points to a signal problem?

I removed and inserted the new KIPASS ECU with no changes in symptoms.  I had to stop and get my butt to work.  These 14 hours days are kicking my a$$.

Thanks to all of you who have offered suggestions.  It would be a full time job for me to keep track of which suggestions I tried or not and thank individuals so please don't feel bad if I don't answer each post.  I hope you guys understand.  Keep 'em coming - the ones that gets me back on the road will definitely get mentioned.

One thing that I wonder about now is where are all of the electronic bits are on this bike?  I suspect that anything with a chip or discreet electronic components could have been damaged when the 12V system went south.

I'm thinking about changing the name of this post to "This is what happens when you screw with your electrical system".
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Justcliff on February 09, 2018, 03:42:24 pm
First off let me say I haven't read through this post, but your last post sounds similar to a problem I had. I far as I know it's not a common one, but a real pain to find.

My symptoms, headlights out, city lights out, same buzzing, blinkers not working but all burned steady & very dim, high beam indicator & signal indicator stayed on. Don't remember about the cluster.

I ended up finding a ground block in the harness corroded up. There are 11 of these blocks thru out the harness best I can remember. You can feel small rectangles in the harness, 1/2" or so.

My bad one was right near the air filter access. I cut it out & soldered the wires together & put a wire nut on it. That's been probably 60,000 miles now with no more trouble.

I would post a picture of it but haven't figured out the pictures here.     

 
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on February 09, 2018, 04:36:52 pm
First off let me say I haven't read through this post, but your last post sounds similar to a problem I had. I far as I know it's not a common one, but a real pain to find.

My symptoms, headlights out, city lights out, same buzzing, blinkers not working but all burned steady & very dim, high beam indicator & signal indicator stayed on. Don't remember about the cluster.

I ended up finding a ground block in the harness corroded up. There are 11 of these blocks thru out the harness best I can remember. You can feel small rectangles in the harness, 1/2" or so.

My bad one was right near the air filter access. I cut it out & soldered the wires together & put a wire nut on it. That's been probably 60,000 miles now with no more trouble.

I would post a picture of it but haven't figured out the pictures here.

I will look at that first when I rip the plastic off this weekend.  Thanks for the post.

Sometimes electrical troubleshooting is similar to attempting to find a black cat in a room with the lights off, all the time while wearing oven mitts.  I've located electrical/electronic faults in power plants the size of a city block - easy.  This one is sitting right in front of me and laughing its ass off.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Freddy on February 09, 2018, 06:27:28 pm
Cliff, it's good that you haven't read the whole thread - tooo sad :yikes:  - but a great post.   :hail:
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: mikeyw64 on February 10, 2018, 01:07:49 am
First off let me say I haven't read through this post, but your last post sounds similar to a problem I had. I far as I know it's not a common one, but a real pain to find.

My symptoms, headlights out, city lights out, same buzzing, blinkers not working but all burned steady & very dim, high beam indicator & signal indicator stayed on. Don't remember about the cluster.

I ended up finding a ground block in the harness corroded up. There are 11 of these blocks thru out the harness best I can remember. You can feel small rectangles in the harness, 1/2" or so.

My bad one was right near the air filter access. I cut it out & soldered the wires together & put a wire nut on it. That's been probably 60,000 miles now with no more trouble.

I would post a picture of it but haven't figured out the pictures here.   


The Honda Blackbird (both Carb & FI) suffered from the same "Ground block corrosion" issue which caused all sorts of odd issues with the FI,charging  etc.

Again the fix was to break the connector apart, strip back to clean wire and then solder together


Honda Blackbird Loom Fix (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=honda+balckbird+loom+fix&oq=honda+balckbird+loom+fix&aqs=chrome..69i57.8085j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: VirginiaJim on February 10, 2018, 08:20:44 am
Epic Haroldo if you ask me....

I think someone in the UK group had an issue with that silly ground block.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: fartymarty on February 10, 2018, 11:42:56 am
My bad one was right near the air filter access.   

I looked through my photos and I don't have any of that side, but I found these two in some A&R Hid Install instructions.
I think the first one is the one Cliff is referring to??

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-PsCWFBW/0/d906ffd2/M/i-PsCWFBW-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-PsCWFBW/0/d906ffd2/O/i-PsCWFBW.jpg)

This second one is further forward over the radiator.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Vkhhpkx/0/3b8abbd8/M/i-Vkhhpkx-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Vkhhpkx/0/3b8abbd8/O/i-Vkhhpkx.jpg)

Cliff, please jump in here if I'm giving bad info!

I'm going to look through the shop manual and see if there are any location photos for these things in the appendix. I should be back tomorrow with that. (Probably too late to help, sorry.)
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on February 10, 2018, 11:54:53 am
I looked through my photos and I don't have any of that side, but I found these two in some A&R Hid Install instructions.
I think the first one is the one Cliff is referring to??

Cliff, please jump in here if I'm giving bad info!

I'm going to look through the shop manual and see if there are any location photos for these things in the appendix. I should be back tomorrow with that. (Probably too late to help, sorry.)

If I remember correctly someone mentioned that there are 11 or so of these connectors.  They bunch up ground connections so as to keep the wire bundle sizes as small as possible.  I'll go after the ones in the front since I think they have more exposure to the outside world and my problems are in the front end too.

Thanks for the pics!
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: maxtog on February 10, 2018, 11:57:25 am
I had seen such "blocks" in the past in wiring harnesses of vehicles and only had a fleeting curiosity, but never bothered to research what they were.  Interesting.

Since we very, very rarely hear about issues stemming from these things, I would guess they are probably only a point of failure in cases where the harnesses were physically disturbed (accident, moved or damaged during repairs or modifications, cut open for splicing, rubbed by parts that were not supposed to touch them, etc). 
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: fartymarty on February 10, 2018, 04:26:13 pm
Hmm....I'm not seeing any locations in the shop manual. I haven't scoured it yet, just some cursory flips though the pages....but I'm starting to think that all these joint connectors are all taped up in the main harness...and wasn't that just replaced?... or am I am getting mixed up again.🤔😯 Nevermind.

If all of the joint connectors are in the harness, then I doubt Kawasaki will note their location in the shop manual, as they would have the mechanic/tech simply replace the whole harness.  I'll continue to look.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Freddy on February 10, 2018, 06:59:26 pm
I happen to have a harness hanging around so here's pix of the junction blocks.  I found 2 - they have 5 or 6 black/yellow wires entering them.

(https://i.imgur.com/CRAOvuk.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qDM8hik.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/mAgRL11.jpg)

There are 4 or 5 other earth junctions wrapped in blue.  The wires are crimped together and look solid.  If the problem is an earth junction, I'd look for the 2 above as they are not as solid in my view, as Cliff's pix below show.

(https://i.imgur.com/oV6QhGc.jpg)
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Justcliff on February 10, 2018, 07:50:27 pm
I looked through my photos and I don't have any of that side, but I found these two in some A&R Hid Install instructions.
I think the first one is the one Cliff is referring to??

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-PsCWFBW/0/d906ffd2/M/i-PsCWFBW-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-PsCWFBW/0/d906ffd2/O/i-PsCWFBW.jpg)

This second one is further forward over the radiator.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Vkhhpkx/0/3b8abbd8/M/i-Vkhhpkx-M.jpg)[



Cliff, please jump in here if I'm giving bad info!

I'm going to look through the shop manual and see if there are any location photos for these things in the appendix. I should be back tomorrow with that. (Probably too late to help, sorry.)
 (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Vkhhpkx/0/3b8abbd8/O/i-Vkhhpkx.jpg)

Yes Marty your 1st. picture is the location. There was 2 there pretty close together. I'm pretty sure there are 11 of them.


Since we very, very rarely hear about issues stemming from these things, I would guess they are probably only a point of failure in cases where the harnesses were physically disturbed (accident, moved or damaged during repairs or modifications, cut open for splicing, rubbed by parts that were not supposed to touch them, etc). 

My harness had not been damaged, harmed, rubbed or cut for splicing.  It was simply corroded, period. I only know of 1 other instance of this happening.

I cannot seem to figure out picture posting here or I would post a picture.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Justcliff on February 10, 2018, 07:58:38 pm
Let's try again.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on February 11, 2018, 06:49:37 pm
I began to look into these blocks.  I was hoping to find at least one that showed some crud like the photo below that Cliff posted.  But no, so far they look clean when I removed the e-tape and opened them.  I will be spending the rest of the week tearing the bike down and removing the fuel tank as time permits.

I found three of the Black/White connectors near the air filter and four more near the KIPASS ECU.  They're broken out nicely so I didn't have to dig into the harness.  Just removed a couple wraps of electrical tape.  Two of the connectors near the ECU have blue wires so I'm gonna leave them alone until I find out what they do.

I ran out of time, daylight, and Give-A-Crap so this weekend troubleshooting is done.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: B.D.F. on February 11, 2018, 07:28:46 pm
The light blue wires connected together are CANbus wires.

Brian

I began to look into these blocks.  I was hoping to find at least one that showed some crud like the photo below that Cliff posted.  But no, so far they look clean when I removed the e-tape and opened them.  I will be spending the rest of the week tearing the bike down and removing the fuel tank as time permits.

I found three of the Black/White connectors near the air filter and four more near the KIPASS ECU.  They're broken out nicely so I didn't have to dig into the harness.  Just removed a couple wraps of electrical tape.  Two of the connectors near the ECU have blue wires so I'm gonna leave them alone until I find out what they do.

I ran out of time, daylight, and Give-A-Crap so this weekend troubleshooting is done.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: fartymarty on February 12, 2018, 07:41:34 am
  I will be spending the rest of the week tearing the bike down and removing the fuel tank as time permits.

fyi: You can get quite a bit of access just by loosening the tank and propping it up with pieces of wood and thereby not risking fuel leakage. You might want to start with that as it's fairly easy to do that way. While you have it off or up, you might want to start by checking the secondary frame ground as seen in the attached photo and labelled as #12.

You seem to know your way around a multimeter so forgive me if I'm forgetting or stating the obvious....but do you know yet why the things that are not working as to is it (1) a grounding issue or (2) a power not getting there issue? Chances are it's one or the other and not both. Getting that knowledge up front would eliminate perhaps 50% of the wire chasing. If you haven't determined that yet then I'd start with the headlight relays, are they clicking when you change the hi beam switch? ...are they getting power? ...do they have a ground connection? They are up high so they should be easy to get to and should have power as soon as you bump the starter switch. Starting with them might save a lot of disassembly.
Good Luck!


Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on February 12, 2018, 11:59:57 am
I think I want to remove the fuel tank simply because I want to put my hands on the ABS pump - It's underneath the tank right?  It is throwing codes and I want to look at the electronics.  The codes are conflicting (High and low power input voltage) so I guess I'm a little conflicted too.  There are wiring harness bits beneath the tank also.  I just want to take a look-see.

As far as my current indications are concerned with the other non-operational stuff (ABS, headlights, turn indicators, Speedo, Trip Odo) I don't know if it is a power supply or return issue yet.  The Speedo does activate during the initial boot up of the cluster so that portion does have a complete circuit... It just doesn't indicate speed while riding which could be a completely different current path.

Most importantly I am resigned to the fact that this stuff is now showing up as I begin to replace known bad components and begin to recover.  What was hidden/masked by the complete deadness of the machine previously is coming to light.  This could take a while.  So I'm gonna remove most of the plastic now instead of piece meal just to get it out of the way.

My initial look at the grounding blocks hasn't yielded any cruddy ones but I will know where they are now.  It is such a universal system that it only makes sense to verify it sooner that later.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Freddy on February 12, 2018, 12:30:23 pm
Yes, the ABS unit is under the tank, under a cover.  Putting your hands on probably won't reveal much.  There is one large harness connector and the diagnostic connectors are located under the seat, just behind item 15 in Marty's pic.  I take it you haven't cleared the stored codes as mentioned earlier and identified current active codes - or have you?
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on February 12, 2018, 01:11:09 pm
Yes, the ABS unit is under the tank, under a cover.  Putting your hands on probably won't reveal much.  There is one large harness connector and the diagnostic connectors are located under the seat, just behind item 15 in Marty's pic.  I take it you haven't cleared the stored codes as mentioned earlier and identified current active codes - or have you?

The mechanic who did the KDS3 work with the new KIPASS ECU said that he attempted to clear the ABS codes a few times.  I didn't even attempt do do it myself.  I started looking at the other stuff that wasn't working.  They might be related so I guess I'll find out as I start taking bites out of this elephant.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Freddy on February 12, 2018, 01:19:01 pm
Good luck with it Tree, I sincerely hope it all works out.

Regarding clearing ABS fault codes, it's not done with KDS3 but the pair of wires located under the seat I referred to above.  The simple procedure is in the factory service manual, which you no doubt you.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on February 17, 2018, 05:27:33 pm
I went through and verified all of the Joint Connectors that I could find and they are all nice and clean.  Resistance to ground is good.  From what I can tell the circuit to and from all of the components is complete and not degraded.

I had to ask myself the simple question about lights, you know, when they don't light up?  Q: Are the light bulbs OK?  All of my headlights, city lights, turn indicating lights, and licence plate light were all blown.  The only thing that saved the brake light was the fact that it is LED.  I also isolated that abnormal buzzing noise that presented itself when I actuated the turn indicators or the emergency flashers.  I originally thought it was coming from the KIPASS ECU that I just replaced - it was actually coming from the turn signal relay which is just below the ECU, to the right, behind the plastic.  I feel better about my new ECU for now.  Hindsight being 20-20 I will never forget this lesson about basic electricity.  P = I X E.  In order for Power to remain constant, when the voltage in the electrical system went way down, the current in every device went way up.  Those components that were protected by a fuse were somewhat protected but the light bulbs had a hot lunch.  Inductive devices got their asses handed to them.  What's that?  Can you smell the burning coils?

Since I will be replacing all of the light bulbs now I was wondering what the latest and greatest replacements would be.  I have browsed through some of the posts where upgrades were made.  I have also read some about the turn signal relay and possible upgrades to that.

I'm not out of the woods yet but I think I can see a little better now.

What I would like to know from you guys is what is the best recommendations for replacement bulbs/relay and where can I get them?  Thanks in advance.  I am always happy to share my misery if it helps out some other poor schmuck.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Freddy on February 17, 2018, 05:48:48 pm
I would just use standard ones, but hey,  glad to read you're getting on top of it.   :chugbeer:
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: turbojoe78 on February 18, 2018, 09:03:37 am
This is what I'd do, and what I did.

Excellent upgrade.

http://forum.cog-online.org/gixerhp-switchback-lights/switchback-lighting-deal (http://forum.cog-online.org/gixerhp-switchback-lights/switchback-lighting-deal)!/
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on February 19, 2018, 07:25:59 pm
Replacing headlights with original halogen type.  Don't feel the need for LED.  Maybe I will add something to the forks later...  I don't know yet: SYLVANIA 9003 (also fits H4) SilverStar High Performance Halogen Headlight Bulb, (Contains 2 Bulbs)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CO93RA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CO93RA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

City lights will be incandescent amber: Philips 168NA LongerLife Miniature Bulb, 2 Pack

https://www.amazon.com/Philips-168NA-LongerLife-Miniature-Bulb/dp/B0173MKAHA/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1519093391&sr=1-1&keywords=Philips+168NA+LongerLife+Miniature+Bulb%2C+2+Pack (https://www.amazon.com/Philips-168NA-LongerLife-Miniature-Bulb/dp/B0173MKAHA/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1519093391&sr=1-1&keywords=Philips+168NA+LongerLife+Miniature+Bulb%2C+2+Pack)

Replacing the turn signal bulbs with LED: JDM ASTAR Super Bright 5730 Chipsets 7507 1156PY BAU15S LED Bulbs with Projector,Amber Yellow

https://www.amazon.com/iJDMTOY-Electronic-Flasher-Motorcycle-Signal/dp/B00RM26LXO/ref=sr_1_6?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1519092754&sr=1-6&refinements=p_89%3AiJDMTOY (https://www.amazon.com/iJDMTOY-Electronic-Flasher-Motorcycle-Signal/dp/B00RM26LXO/ref=sr_1_6?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1519092754&sr=1-6&refinements=p_89%3AiJDMTOY)

Got a new electronic turn signal relay: iJDMTOY (1) 2-Pin Electronic LED Flasher Relay FIX Motorcycle LED Turn Signal Bulbs Hyper Flash Issue

https://www.amazon.com/iJDMTOY-Electronic-Flasher-Motorcycle-Signal/dp/B00RM26LXO/ref=sr_1_6?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1519092754&sr=1-6&refinements=p_89%3AiJDMTOY (https://www.amazon.com/iJDMTOY-Electronic-Flasher-Motorcycle-Signal/dp/B00RM26LXO/ref=sr_1_6?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1519092754&sr=1-6&refinements=p_89%3AiJDMTOY)

Can it be true?  I don't need load resistors with this fancy new relay?  Please tell me I don't need to splice anything.  After what I've been through I'm afraid to go near any wires.   :P

p.s.  I've seen LED's out there on the U-tube that don't use separate load resistors.  It's about time they figured that one out!
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: maxtog on February 19, 2018, 09:36:59 pm
Replacing headlights with original halogen type.  Don't feel the need for LED.

I am pretty pleased with my HID -> LED conversion.  Not at bright as HID but much better pattern, more reliable, far less heat, no offgassing (which fouled a bit of the reflectors).  Not as good a pattern as the H4, which has more even coverage.

Quote
City lights will be incandescent amber: Philips 168NA LongerLife Miniature Bulb, 2 Pack

EXTREMELY happy with my last JDM AStar LED city lights.  FINALLY brighter than yellow incandescent!

Quote
Can it be true?  I don't need load resistors with this fancy new relay?  Please tell me I don't need to splice anything.  After what I've been through I'm afraid to go near any wires.   :P

When you are using a solid state flasher, there is no need for load resistors anymore- which waste tons of power, create lots of heat, have to be mounted somewhere safe, can fail, AND introduce more overall failure points in the system.  I love mine... just fantastic.  Unfortunately, they are not available easily for all vehicles.

Quote
p.s.  I've seen LED's out there on the U-tube that don't use separate load resistors.  It's about time they figured that one out!

As far as I understand a design can INCLUDE load resistors in the wiring harness, but not in the bulb.  LED bulbs are severely impacted by heat, so a load resistor could not be integrated into the bulb and produce a bulb that is bright and will last...
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on February 19, 2018, 10:44:27 pm

EXTREMELY happy with my last JDM AStar LED city lights.  FINALLY brighter than yellow incandescent!


I've read about your frustrations with LED brightness.  Are you saying that there is an LED City Light out there that you prefer to incandescent?!?  What do you have?  I still have time to upgrade those too!

This may be hard to believe but is worth a look: No Load Resistor LED https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwjtMmGJN3M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwjtMmGJN3M)
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: mikeyw64 on February 20, 2018, 12:45:40 am
I've read about your frustrations with LED brightness.  Are you saying that there is an LED City Light out there that you prefer to incandescent?!?  What do you have?  I still have time to upgrade those too!

This may be hard to believe but is worth a look: No Load Resistor LED https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwjtMmGJN3M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwjtMmGJN3M)


that guy is so bloody annoying!!
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on February 20, 2018, 05:16:00 am

that guy is so bloody annoying!!

Yeah, he is.  Painfully annoying.  I also get annoyed with myself for falling in line with the next, latest, best, new/improved gadget that promises to make my life easier and is sooooo much better that what I already have in my hand.  Maybe the next, best thing in lighting is just what I need!!!  Maybe not.  Probably not.  I am thankful I'm not riding around with a gaslight!
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: maxtog on February 20, 2018, 05:44:52 am

that guy is so bloody annoying!!

You can say that again.  Anyway, I wouldn't buy them because I would expect their life to be much shorter.  Might be OK for a turn signal, since it is on so rarely... but marker lights and tail lights, no.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on February 20, 2018, 05:49:08 am
You can say that again.  Anyway, I wouldn't buy them because I would expect their life to be much shorter.  Might be OK for a turn signal, since it is on so rarely... but marker lights and tail lights, no.

But you did make the leap to LED City Lights, right?  What did you go with if you don't mind me asking?
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: maxtog on February 20, 2018, 05:50:07 am
I've read about your frustrations with LED brightness.  Are you saying that there is an LED City Light out there that you prefer to incandescent?!?  What do you have?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018GYMOZ0 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018GYMOZ0)  Been great for almost 2 years now.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: maxtog on February 20, 2018, 05:50:49 am
But you did make the leap to LED City Lights, right? 

And turn signals
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: maxtog on February 20, 2018, 05:57:32 am
You can say that again.  Anyway, I wouldn't buy them because I would expect their life to be much shorter.  Might be OK for a turn signal, since it is on so rarely... but marker lights and tail lights, no.

Yep, call me right.  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071VTS4WS (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071VTS4WS)

"Warning: Replace EITHER the front or the rear turn signal bulbs, but you can't replace both, otherwise you will still get hyper flash; You CAN'T use it for constant light up such as driving lights, daytime running lights; Even though these LED replacement bulbs will not hyper flash on turn signal lights, but they are still NOT "Error Free" for European cars; There is a protection IC inside, so each turn signal cycle cannot exceed 8 minutes.  ONLY good for front or rear AO (Amber-Off-Amber-Off) type turn signal light use (Can't not be used for both front and rear together) "

Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: B.D.F. on February 20, 2018, 06:32:15 am
You would probably feel a LOT better if you could comfort yourself with a ShamWow. Have you heard of them?  ::) ???

 ;D

Brian

Yeah, he is.  Painfully annoying.  I also get annoyed with myself for falling in line with the next, latest, best, new/improved gadget that promises to make my life easier and is sooooo much better that what I already have in my hand.  Maybe the next, best thing in lighting is just what I need!!!  Maybe not.  Probably not.  I am thankful I'm not riding around with a gaslight!
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: gPink on February 20, 2018, 06:57:54 am
...but wait ...there's more!
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on February 20, 2018, 07:06:25 am
And turn signals
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018GYMOZ0 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018GYMOZ0)  Been great for almost 2 years now.

I think I need to pay attention better, or change my meds, or both.  I thought that the electronic turn signal relay negated the need for load resistors when making the switch to LED turn signals, all four "bulbs" (or two on the same side).  There would be no "Hyper-Flash".  That's what I was lead to believe as far as the electronic relay is concerned.  Now it seems to me that the circuit still requires an incandescent bulb in the circuit to provide the required resistance to ground, otherwise a parallel load resistor needs to be in the circuit if LED's are used exclusively for turn signals.

My understanding is that the hyper-Flash is a function of the monitoring circuitry (provided by the KIPASS ECU) as it is designed to detect turn indicator issues and warn the rider/driver.  Typically (prior to the advent of LED use anyway) the problem is a burnt out incandescent bulb which the monitoring system sees as a very high resistance in the circuit.  The ECU then pulses the KIPASS signal relay faster to indicate a problem.  The monitoring system "sees" a reverse biased LED as an open circuit too so it issues a false hyper-flash.  Also, if LED's and load resistances are installed then the monitoring function is essentially bypassed and the rider will not receive an indication of a bad LED turn signal.

The City Lights are not monitored by KIPASS as far as I can tell so a direct replacement (sans resistor) is OK.

So, I am unclear as to what I need to do with my turn indicator mod.  If I want LED on front and rear turn indicators I think I will need at least one parallel resistance installed to satisfy the monitoring circuit.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: Tree on February 20, 2018, 07:08:51 am
You would probably feel a LOT better if you could comfort yourself with a ShamWow. Have you heard of them?  ::) ???

 ;D

Brian

...but wait ...there's more!

Wasn't that some guy named Bobby Flay or something?  Shysters and shucksters.

"And if you act within the next five minutes you can have a bonus of two crappy products for the price of one.  Don't miss out on this amazing offer!!!"
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: gPink on February 20, 2018, 07:24:29 am
Tree have you seen this?   http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22172.msg275505#msg275505 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22172.msg275505#msg275505)
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: mikeyw64 on February 20, 2018, 08:06:33 am
I think I'm going mad now.

I don't recall seeing a bulb failure warning system on the GTR ?


Yes you have the L&R telltales but they work even if the system starts hyperflashing


I think I need to pay attention better, or change my meds, or both.  I thought that the electronic turn signal relay negated the need for load resistors when making the switch to LED turn signals, all four "bulbs" (or two on the same side).  There would be no "Hyper-Flash".  That's what I was lead to believe as far as the electronic relay is concerned.  Now it seems to me that the circuit still requires an incandescent bulb in the circuit to provide the required resistance to ground, otherwise a parallel load resistor needs to be in the circuit if LED's are used exclusively for turn signals.

My understanding is that the hyper-Flash is a function of the monitoring circuitry (provided by the KIPASS ECU) as it is designed to detect turn indicator issues and warn the rider/driver.  Typically (prior to the advent of LED use anyway) the problem is a burnt out incandescent bulb which the monitoring system sees as a very high resistance in the circuit.  The ECU then pulses the KIPASS signal relay faster to indicate a problem.  The monitoring system "sees" a reverse biased LED as an open circuit too so it issues a false hyper-flash.  Also, if LED's and load resistances are installed then the monitoring function is essentially bypassed and the rider will not receive an indication of a bad LED turn signal.

The City Lights are not monitored by KIPASS as far as I can tell so a direct replacement (sans resistor) is OK.

So, I am unclear as to what I need to do with my turn indicator mod.  If I want LED on front and rear turn indicators I think I will need at least one parallel resistance installed to satisfy the monitoring circuit.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: B.D.F. on February 20, 2018, 09:42:51 am
There is no 'bulb out' warning system on the C-14, to the best of my knowledge.

Honestly, not really sure what is going on in this thread but it <seems> like the stator problem thread has a little part about rapid flashing of turn signal indicators, probably caused by substituting tungsten bulbs with LEDs. A common problem because some older type flashers use the current load of filament bulbs to 'time' them and when that current is cut by 99% (or whatever it is) the flashers go bonkers (technical term meaning they do not perform in a usable manner). Otherwise, I am having trouble following at least some, and perhaps all, of Tree's situation and problems. Which is fine of course 'cause I do not have to understand and he is getting help it seems so the world is still a great place. And I got to stick a 'Sham Wow' into this thread and hey, it is always  fun when you can stick a ShamWow anyplace IMO (Easy Boys!).

As to your going mad, I have no idea about that and so will not comment on it. Perhaps you could look in a mirror and see if you strike yourself as looking odd or unusual in some way (that is an expression: please do not strike yourself but if you find that idea appealing, we will not be needing any mirror tests.....).

Brian

I think I'm going mad now.

I don't recall seeing a bulb failure warning system on the GTR ?


Yes you have the L&R telltales but they work even if the system starts hyperflashing
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: fartymarty on February 20, 2018, 10:49:16 am
I think I need to pay attention better, or change my meds, or both.  I thought that the electronic turn signal relay negated the need for load resistors when making the switch to LED turn signals, all four "bulbs" (or two on the same side).  There would be no "Hyper-Flash".  That's what I was lead to believe as far as the electronic relay is concerned.  Now it seems to me that the circuit still requires an incandescent bulb in the circuit to provide the required resistance to ground, otherwise a parallel load resistor needs to be in the circuit if LED's are used exclusively for turn signals.

My understanding is that the hyper-Flash is a function of the monitoring circuitry (provided by the KIPASS ECU) as it is designed to detect turn indicator issues and warn the rider/driver.  Typically (prior to the advent of LED use anyway) the problem is a burnt out incandescent bulb which the monitoring system sees as a very high resistance in the circuit.  The ECU then pulses the KIPASS signal relay faster to indicate a problem.  The monitoring system "sees" a reverse biased LED as an open circuit too so it issues a false hyper-flash.  Also, if LED's and load resistances are installed then the monitoring function is essentially bypassed and the rider will not receive an indication of a bad LED turn signal.

The City Lights are not monitored by KIPASS as far as I can tell so a direct replacement (sans resistor) is OK.

So, I am unclear as to what I need to do with my turn indicator mod.  If I want LED on front and rear turn indicators I think I will need at least one parallel resistance installed to satisfy the monitoring circuit.

I have a two wire electronic turn signal flasher, and LED turn signals front and rear and all works well with no load or ballast resistors of any kind. I can not detect any monitoring circuitry in the wiring diagram. The closest that the KIPASS comes to monitoring the system is that it controls the ground circuit to a relay coil that makes the "KIPASS FLASH"  when you turn the ignition on or off. It would have no way of knowing if any of the bulbs are burned out or even in the socket as all it does see is the relay coil, not the circuitry that the coil causes to be energized. You may be getting off track by some of the things max' is saying about the LED lights hawked by the annoying guy mentioned earlier.

However if we could get back to your bike and it's....ahem... "stator problem", let me see if I can summarize where we are (or do I need to pay attention better or get back on my meds?)
 (1)The light circuits are all good now but just need bulbs or LEDs (correct?)
(2) there are still ABS codes present that will not clear or are continuing to be reset after clearing?
 (3) The speedometer still doesn't work when the bike is moving but it does during the initial start up of the ignition on.
(4) We have concluded that there is not really a problem with the stator and it seems to be supplying power to the bike and charging the battery (correct?)
(5) Other than the above mentioned problems are there any that I missed or is everything else OK?

If I'm correct about (4), Tree, would you consider going back to your first post and adding a "(not really)" to the subject line right after "Stator Problem?" so that someone a year from now doesn't go all through this thread looking for stator information and end up replacing their turn signal bulbs in hopes of rescuing their stator?  :)
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on February 20, 2018, 12:48:22 pm

I have a two wire electronic turn signal flasher, and LED turn signals front and rear and all works well with no load or ballast resistors of any kind. I can not detect any monitoring circuitry in the wiring diagram. The closest that the KIPASS comes to monitoring the system is that it controls the ground circuit to a relay coil that makes the "KIPASS FLASH"  when you turn the ignition on or off. It would have no way of knowing if any of the bulbs are burned out or even in the socket as all it does see is the relay coil, not the circuitry that the coil causes to be energized. You may be getting off track by some of the things max' is saying about the LED lights hawked by the annoying guy mentioned earlier.

However if we could get back to your bike and it's....ahem... "stator problem", let me see if I can summarize where we are (or do I need to pay attention better or get back on my meds?)
 (1)The light circuits are all good now but just need bulbs or LEDs (correct?)
(2) there are still ABS codes present that will not clear or are continuing to be reset after clearing?
 (3) The speedometer still doesn't work when the bike is moving but it does during the initial start up of the ignition on.
(4) We have concluded that there is not really a problem with the stator and it seems to be supplying power to the bike and charging the battery (correct?)
(5) Other than the above mentioned problems are there any that I missed or is everything else OK?

If I'm correct about (4), Tree, would you consider going back to your first post and adding a "(not really)" to the subject line right after "Stator Problem?" so that someone a year from now doesn't go all through this thread looking for stator information and end up replacing their turn signal bulbs in hopes of rescuing their stator?  :)

(1) Lighting circuits all checked out good.  The bulbs were all bad.  Upgrading to LED 'cause I can. Thank you for the clarification on the load resistor/electronic relay question.
(2) I'm still operating on the report from my Stealer Mechanic who said that there were ABS codes.  I haven't gotten to the point of verifying that since I have been wrapped up in the lighting circuit.  I did note that the ABS light remained ON the entire time I was riding from the shop to the house.
(3) The speedo did not indicate when I rode the bike the 2 miles from the dealer to my place.  I did test the cluster functions per the owners manual and the speedo does operate.  The needles for the speedo and odo sweep to the right and left when the ignition switch is placed in ON.  This is still something I will have to address.
(4) Stator seems to be just fine.  Charging circuit operating normally.  Voltage shows 14.4V on the cluster.
(5) I could use a hug.

I went back and updated the topic title.  I didn't know I could do that.  Cool.   8)  I initially entitled it Stator Problem because I was concerned that I had compromised my electrical charging system when I was working through the Shorted Frankenstein Switch.  Which, if Y'all remember, started out with the dreaded stuck switch inside the SLU.  As it turns out I did compromise my electrical system and the battery took the biggest hit, and it hit back.

I could check the operation of the headlight, City Light circuit today but I am waiting on bulbs from Amazon.  I realize now that those bulbs are readily available from the local auto parts place but I already paid for the other stuff.

I will, more than likely, uncover other affected broken stuff as I slowly recover this machine.  I suspect that this thread is not near completion just now.
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: maxtog on February 20, 2018, 03:25:26 pm
I think I need to pay attention better, or change my meds, or both.  I thought that the electronic turn signal relay negated the need for load resistors when making the switch to LED turn signals, all four "bulbs" (or two on the same side).  There would be no "Hyper-Flash".

Correct

Quote
  Now it seems to me that the circuit still requires an incandescent bulb in the circuit to provide the required resistance to ground, otherwise a parallel load resistor needs to be in the circuit if LED's are used exclusively for turn signals.

I have not had that problem.

Quote
My understanding is that the hyper-Flash is a function of the monitoring circuitry (provided by the KIPASS ECU) as it is designed to detect turn indicator issues and warn the rider/driver.

Nope.  Nothing of the sort.  The ECU has no idea on the C14 if the turn signals are on, it doesn't monitor or control turn signals.  Hyperflash is simply mechanical.  Because there isn't enough load on the heater strip in the old/mechanical blinker relay, it just flashes much much faster than it should.

Quote
So, I am unclear as to what I need to do with my turn indicator mod.  If I want LED on front and rear turn indicators I think I will need at least one parallel resistance installed to satisfy the monitoring circuit.

Nope.  Your choice is to either put load resistors on them OR switch to a solid state flasher relay.   The choice is easy :)
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on February 20, 2018, 03:41:53 pm
OK.  I am now waiting very impatiently for the Amazon Delivery.  I got something very cool on the way from Kriss Industries too.  I'm not gonna say what it is until I install and test it.  I got enough egg on my face already.   :P


Thanks for the clarity Max.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: maxtog on February 20, 2018, 04:11:30 pm
OK.  I am now waiting very impatiently for the Amazon Delivery.  I got something very cool on the way from Kriss Industries too.  I'm not gonna say what it is until I install and test it.  I got enough egg on my face already.   :P

Thanks for the clarity Max.

Well, to be fair, a lot of this is complicated stuff.... especially when you are trying to research which bulbs.  I know I went through it all and gave up several times and burned a few, before I finally found what works.  There ARE some vehicles that control the turn signals with the ECU.  There ARE some vehicles that monitor bulbs with various methods.  And there ARE bulbs that are crappy, too dim, have horrible light dispersal, burn out quickly, don't fit inside the housings, etc, etc.  Now add marketing nonsense, poorly worded "specifications", flat out lies about "lumens" (brightness), lack of clarification on how something works or what it fits, photos that are "typical" and not the "actual" product, changes in the product without changing model numbers, and reviews that don't match the product, or spread wrong info, or are fake, or were for some other vehicle not specified, and it just makes you want to scream!
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: B.D.F. on February 20, 2018, 05:37:49 pm
Yep, I remember that part, and I have followed along with your posts about the ECU, the KiPass ECU and so forth. And I follow part of this. But I do not understand how filament light bulbs could have been damaged by whatever you did to the bike's wiring or electrical systems? I know you damaged or think you damaged the rectifier / regulator, and that is fine, but even if that fried and would have allowed a huge surge in voltage, the battery and the rest of the electrical circuits should have provided more than enough resistance to prevent the alternator from reaching high enough voltages to cause incandescent filaments to actually break. Over voltage would cause too much current but not likely enough to blow out filaments. Further, the alternator is not an unlimited current device and it has a max. capacity, at which point its own windings would open thereby stop any further current flow anyway. I guess in short I am saying I am not having much success thinking of a scenario where a vehicle's electrical system and so many 'downwind' components could be damaged with nothing but the electrical equipment on the bike in the first place.

Not saying you did not and do not have this problem, and not saying it is not exactly what you are saying it is, just that I have no experience and cannot conceive of any condition / situation that could cause such wide- reaching damage to so many [really hard to damage] components, such as headlights.

Perhaps a better way to put it is I cannot think of any way I could cause such damage on purpose, given time and planning as you seem to have. Again, not saying you are not right, just that it is totally puzzling to me and I cannot make any logical sense of it. ??

And of course, I am not asking you to have this make sense to me 'cause that is not your job, it is my failing. At any rate, I will follow along such as I can and will help if or when I think it might be of some benefit to you. And of course, sorry to hear of this misfortune as it is really the worst case of vehicle electrical damage I have ever heard of and will be hugely expensive as well as exasperating, finding all the individual parts one at a time.

Brian

(1) Lighting circuits all checked out good.  The bulbs were all bad.  Upgrading to LED 'cause I can. Thank you for the clarification on the load resistor/electronic relay question.
(2) I'm still operating on the report from my Stealer Mechanic who said that there were ABS codes.  I haven't gotten to the point of verifying that since I have been wrapped up in the lighting circuit.  I did note that the ABS light remained ON the entire time I was riding from the shop to the house.
(3) The speedo did not indicate when I rode the bike the 2 miles from the dealer to my place.  I did test the cluster functions per the owners manual and the speedo does operate.  The needles for the speedo and odo sweep to the right and left when the ignition switch is placed in ON.  This is still something I will have to address.
(4) Stator seems to be just fine.  Charging circuit operating normally.  Voltage shows 14.4V on the cluster.
(5) I could use a hug.

I went back and updated the topic title.  I didn't know I could do that.  Cool.   8)  I initially entitled it Stator Problem because I was concerned that I had compromised my electrical charging system when I was working through the Shorted Frankenstein Switch.  Which, if Y'all remember, started out with the dreaded stuck switch inside the SLU.  As it turns out I did compromise my electrical system and the battery took the biggest hit, and it hit back.

I could check the operation of the headlight, City Light circuit today but I am waiting on bulbs from Amazon.  I realize now that those bulbs are readily available from the local auto parts place but I already paid for the other stuff.

I will, more than likely, uncover other affected broken stuff as I slowly recover this machine.  I suspect that this thread is not near completion just now.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on February 21, 2018, 05:38:06 am
None of what I have experienced since I began fiddling around with the electrical circuit makes much sense.  But it actually makes a whole lot of sense when viewed from my armchair.  I have theories and suspicions about what happened and what may have caused it.  Well, to be fair, I caused the problems.  So what follows is my attempt at explanation about WTF happened.

The electrical system failure that I experienced and that ultimately grounded (pun) my bike was a protracted low voltage condition.  The low voltage was caused when the battery experienced an internal fault brought about by several high-current, short-circuit loads being imposed upon it due to my botched attempt to "repair" the SLU.  Repeated stresses, over and over and over....  The battery then no longer behaved as a power source (ie the internal voltage decreased) because the structures that maintained the separation between plates broke down. It was more than likely mechanical failure but there could have been a chemical element that resulted in degraded charge-discharge performance.  There was a time long ago in a land far far away that I could have explained the precise chemical equations involved in charging and discharging a battery...  time is a cruel master and I have forgotten more than I care to admit.

What I believe to be the final stroke was when the battery developed fatal short circuit(s).  (It was very angry with me which is completely understandable)  This resulted in the electrical potential dropping and the battery's capability to achieve/maintain rated voltage.  The charging circuit (voltage regulator, via the stator) delivers a nominal 14 to 15VDC every time, all of the time.  The charging circuit basically chased the battery down the voltage gradient as the battery's internal resistance and voltage decreased.  A downward voltage surge if you will.  The ultimate ending voltage point for the battery would be zero VDC or chassis ground (zero volts as far as DC is concerned).  The battery was now acting as a huge load on the charging circuit.  The voltage drop wasn't sudden as say, flipping a switch, but it was fast enough.  And it was also slow enough for the current sensitive components in the bike to feel the heat.  Somewhere back in this post I wrote about a little basic electrical theory.  Device Power (W) (consumed/required/demanded) = Current (I) X Voltage (V).  That equality must be satisfied.  So, when voltage is forced down then the current is forced up due to the device's demand/need to keep everything equal and the power delivery where it needs to be.  The resultant excessive currents basically burnt up stuff.  I say currents because the circuitry that is supplied by the system spreads out to various discreet components which all have their own Power needs and resultant current draw.  That's why a fuse can't protect everything when there is a low voltage condition because it has a very high current rating when compared to a discreet component.  A fuse is for short-circuit protection and cannot sense nor does it give a crap about voltage.  (But there are voltage ratings for fuses, I won't go into why, it's beyond the scope).  Individual component current draws are very small in comparison to short-circuit protection.

When I pulled the battery I found that it was nearly spherical (minor exaggeration) and the deformation was so severe that it caused the walls of the battery compartment to bulge outward.

As to why this or that component failed and others did not can be explained.  The reason that literally everything didn't get fried was that the KIPASS and/or the DFI ECU failed and shut down the bike.  What had already failed was broken and the remainder was saved.

Yep, I remember that part, and I have followed along with your posts about the ECU, the KiPass ECU and so forth. And I follow part of this. But I do not understand how filament light bulbs could have been damaged by whatever you did to the bike's wiring or electrical systems? I know you damaged or think you damaged the rectifier / regulator, and that is fine, but even if that fried and would have allowed a huge surge in voltage, the battery and the rest of the electrical circuits should have provided more than enough resistance to prevent the alternator from reaching high enough voltages to cause incandescent filaments to actually break. Over voltage would cause too much current but not likely enough to blow out filaments. Further, the alternator is not an unlimited current device and it has a max. capacity, at which point its own windings would open thereby stop any further current flow anyway. I guess in short I am saying I am not having much success thinking of a scenario where a vehicle's electrical system and so many 'downwind' components could be damaged with nothing but the electrical equipment on the bike in the first place.

Not saying you did not and do not have this problem, and not saying it is not exactly what you are saying it is, just that I have no experience and cannot conceive of any condition / situation that could cause such wide- reaching damage to so many [really hard to damage] components, such as headlights.

Perhaps a better way to put it is I cannot think of any way I could cause such damage on purpose, given time and planning as you seem to have. Again, not saying you are not right, just that it is totally puzzling to me and I cannot make any logical sense of it. ??

And of course, I am not asking you to have this make sense to me 'cause that is not your job, it is my failing. At any rate, I will follow along such as I can and will help if or when I think it might be of some benefit to you. And of course, sorry to hear of this misfortune as it is really the worst case of vehicle electrical damage I have ever heard of and will be hugely expensive as well as exasperating, finding all the individual parts one at a time.

Brian

Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Freddy on February 21, 2018, 06:33:55 am
I, too, am apparently missing something in your explanation - or theory, and concur with what Brian says: Perhaps a better way to put it is, I cannot think of any way I could cause such damage on purpose, given time and planning as you seem to have. Again, not saying you are not right, just that it is totally puzzling to me and I cannot make any logical sense of it. ??

But to use a trite expression: 'at the end of the day it is what it is' - a horribly sad story.  I admire your stamina, ability and determination.   :chugbeer:
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on February 21, 2018, 07:07:03 am
OK.  Let me try this.  I certainly didn't set out with any intent to damage my bike.  I don't know if I needed to say that but that is what I perceive as being in question.  What I had hoped to convey was that I did indeed create my own misery and I am now suffering the consequences of my decisions.  The preceding narrative is my attempt to:

1. Get some help
2. Share my experience
3. Be involved in the community

Perhaps I missed the point or overlooked an obvious question.  I have done so in the past and it is a guarantee that I will do so in the future.  The Human inside of me can get very distracted.

In my limited experience on this planet I have heard a few "horribly sad" stories.  I know there many more stories out there that I will never hear and that I feel that I need to hear because it would benefit me.  I don't want to bog this thread down with complicated and obscure personal opinions about philosophy or other B.S.  But there may be someone out there who is asking themselves "Why is this guy sharing such a "horribly sad story"?"

Maybe they need to hear it.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: B.D.F. on February 21, 2018, 07:22:29 am
OK, I hear your theory. But I believe it is fundamentally flawed in a couple of ways; as the voltage in the system goes down due to increased load (your battery failing, a smaller and smaller resistance, a wrench across the battery terminals, whatever the reason), current will increase to a point but not by orders of magnitude. The C-14's alternator can only put out a finite amount of current, after which point it would simply open (burn through) at least one winding in the stator itself and stop working. In short (pun intended), there is just no way for the 'stuff on the bike' (technical term meaning the gross electrical potential of all electric components available on a C-14) to cause such a massive amount of current to do all that damage, or not at least any that I can think of or imagine.

The other thing is that fuses are current based devices, and there is no way to increase their capacity no matter what is done with voltage, including lowering it. A 30 amp fuse will open at, say 40 amps for three seconds, or 50 amps for 1/2 second and so forth (one needs the actual data curve for the specific fuse) but the point is, there is no way to have, say, 60 amps flow through a 30 amp fuse.

As to power delivery, your idea is right but in reality, it will not work that way for very much of a differential in either resistance or voltage. For example: an induction motor will draw more current when it is turning too slowly and the impedance is low. So a 1,000 watt motor will try to draw [close to infinite] current and [nearly zero] voltage (i.e., a dead short) in theory but in practice, it is not a 'perfect current' device and so will actually not draw much more than double its full- load running current. Hence the lights in the garage dim when switching on a table saw but the breaker does not open because while the current surge is high, it is not ridiculous.

In electrical theory, there are current devices (such as an alternator on a vehicle) and voltage devices such as MIG welders but in reality, neither one is really correct and only sorta', kinda' acts that way. A stick welder is a current source and will maintain current and cause the voltage to fluctuate; a MIG welder is a voltage source and cause the current to fluctuate. Both will act to maintain a given power output. And while that is true over a narrow range, it is NOT true over a wider range; set a stick welder for 100 amps, and it may range from 70 to 115 amps as the arc length and plasma density change but it will absolutely not go to 300, 1,000, or more amps of current even given a dead short.

But all of this theory and mechanisms behind us, I still am frankly amazed at what has happened to your bike with no outside power source. If you were doing some welding on the bike, and accidentally sent 200 amps through some wiring and components, I could certainly understand 'letting the smoke out' of all sorts of things. But with nothing but a small battery and a small alternator, the damage you have sustained is honestly amazing to me.

Of course I do believe you have sustained that amount of damage. And there is far more about the world that I do not know than I do know so the fact that it is beyond me is nothing to be surprised about- lots of stuff I do not understand that seems to work just fine in spite of my ignorance. But still, you are holding the 'prize' for electrical damage in both scope and expense that I have ever heard of on any 12 volt vehicular system.

And again, as always, sorry to hear about any of this and of course, I will try and keep an eye on this (and the other) thread and will certainly jump in if or when I think I may have something of use to add that may help you.

Brian

None of what I have experienced since I began fiddling around with the electrical circuit makes much sense.  But it actually makes a whole lot of sense when viewed from my armchair.  I have theories and suspicions about what happened and what may have caused it.  Well, to be fair, I caused the problems.  So what follows is my attempt at explanation about WTF happened.

The electrical system failure that I experienced and that ultimately grounded (pun) my bike was a protracted low voltage condition.  The low voltage was caused when the battery experienced an internal fault brought about by several high-current, short-circuit loads being imposed upon it due to my botched attempt to "repair" the SLU.  Repeated stresses, over and over and over....  The battery then no longer behaved as a power source (ie the internal voltage decreased) because the structures that maintained the separation between plates broke down. It was more than likely mechanical failure but there could have been a chemical element that resulted in degraded charge-discharge performance.  There was a time long ago in a land far far away that I could have explained the precise chemical equations involved in charging and discharging a battery...  time is a cruel master and I have forgotten more than I care to admit.

What I believe to be the final stroke was when the battery developed fatal short circuit(s).  (It was very angry with me which is completely understandable)  This resulted in the electrical potential dropping and the battery's capability to achieve/maintain rated voltage.  The charging circuit (voltage regulator, via the stator) delivers a nominal 14 to 15VDC every time, all of the time.  The charging circuit basically chased the battery down the voltage gradient as the battery's internal resistance and voltage decreased.  A downward voltage surge if you will.  The ultimate ending voltage point for the battery would be zero VDC or chassis ground (zero volts as far as DC is concerned).  The battery was now acting as a huge load on the charging circuit.  The voltage drop wasn't sudden as say, flipping a switch, but it was fast enough.  And it was also slow enough for the current sensitive components in the bike to feel the heat.  Somewhere back in this post I wrote about a little basic electrical theory.  Device Power (W) (consumed/required/demanded) = Current (I) X Voltage (V).  That equality must be satisfied.  So, when voltage is forced down then the current is forced up due to the device's demand/need to keep everything equal and the power delivery where it needs to be.  The resultant excessive currents basically burnt up stuff.  I say currents because the circuitry that is supplied by the system spreads out to various discreet components which all have their own Power needs and resultant current draw.  That's why a fuse can't protect everything when there is a low voltage condition because it has a very high current rating when compared to a discreet component.  A fuse is for short-circuit protection and cannot sense nor does it give a crap about voltage.  (But there are voltage ratings for fuses, I won't go into why, it's beyond the scope).  Individual component current draws are very small in comparison to short-circuit protection.

When I pulled the battery I found that it was nearly spherical (minor exaggeration) and the deformation was so severe that it caused the walls of the battery compartment to bulge outward.

As to why this or that component failed and others did not can be explained.  The reason that literally everything didn't get fried was that the KIPASS and/or the DFI ECU failed and shut down the bike.  What had already failed was broken and the remainder was saved.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: B.D.F. on February 21, 2018, 07:30:19 am
Not sure what you are responding to but no one that I can see, and I guarantee from my point, no one is accusing you of absolutely anything. I am merely perplexed and scratching around for a viable reason why this happened but only conversationally. No one is accusing you of anything, nor is anyone in any way putting you down that I can see. In fact, we are all quite sympathetic I believe and honestly trying to help. Any conversation about how your problem happened is merely speculation and being conversational, not passing judgement or trying to insult you in any way, at all.

If you took anything I have said with any negative tone, I apologize as that was not, was never my meaning or intent. You seem like a great guy and a welcome asset to any nice forum so I do not want to alienate you in any way. And we have all 'stepped in it', usually pretty badly at some point before we get gray hair, and I KNOW I have, so no rock- throwing at you even if you did cause this damage (frankly, I do not care about the 'why', my thinking is about the 'how in the hell' and 'how can I help this guy get to the end of this miserable path'). Anyone who has done anything and says they have not done something foolish, careless or combinations of the above is either fibbing or really has never done much of anything in the first place.

So again, the kindest thoughts and wishes to  you and I will again apologize if you took something I said as accusatory, negative or generally nasty in any way.

Brian

OK.  Let me try this.  I certainly didn't set out with any intent to damage my bike.  I don't know if I needed to say that but that is what I perceive as being in question.  What I had hoped to convey was that I did indeed create my own misery and I am now suffering the consequences of my decisions.  The preceding narrative is my attempt to:

1. Get some help
2. Share my experience
3. Be involved in the community

Perhaps I missed the point or overlooked an obvious question.  I have done so in the past and it is a guarantee that I will do so in the future.  The Human inside of me can get very distracted.

In my limited experience on this planet I have heard a few "horribly sad" stories.  I know there many more stories out there that I will never hear and that I feel that I need to hear because it would benefit me.  I don't want to bog this thread down with complicated and obscure personal opinions about philosophy or other B.S.  But there may be someone out there who is asking themselves "Why is this guy sharing such a "horribly sad story"?"

Maybe they need to hear it.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on February 21, 2018, 09:29:07 am
I am just as puzzled as anyone else out there as to the "How in the hell did this happen???" question.  I offered my theory as to how, as did you and others, but I think we may be chasing smoke at this point.  Not that I saw any smoke thank God.

I thank any and everyone who had been kind enough to comment in an attempt to help me steer through this current (pun intended) dilemma.

Not sure what you are responding to but no one that I can see, and I guarantee from my point, no one is accusing you of absolutely anything. I am merely perplexed and scratching around for a viable reason why this happened but only conversationally. No one is accusing you of anything, nor is anyone in any way putting you down that I can see. In fact, we are all quite sympathetic I believe and honestly trying to help. Any conversation about how your problem happened is merely speculation and being conversational, not passing judgement or trying to insult you in any way, at all.

If you took anything I have said with any negative tone, I apologize as that was not, was never my meaning or intent. You seem like a great guy and a welcome asset to any nice forum so I do not want to alienate you in any way. And we have all 'stepped in it', usually pretty badly at some point before we get gray hair, and I KNOW I have, so no rock- throwing at you even if you did cause this damage (frankly, I do not care about the 'why', my thinking is about the 'how in the hell' and 'how can I help this guy get to the end of this miserable path'). Anyone who has done anything and says they have not done something foolish, careless or combinations of the above is either fibbing or really has never done much of anything in the first place.

So again, the kindest thoughts and wishes to  you and I will again apologize if you took something I said as accusatory, negative or generally nasty in any way.

Brian


I was responding to Freddy and your posts.  Just trying to answer the question.  I hope there wasn't a snarky tone in the reply.  I'm not Butt-Hurt and I hope none of you guys are either.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: B.D.F. on February 21, 2018, 10:06:06 am
Smoke may have actually been your friend- in electronics, always start with the black, stinky parts as the likely problem.... :-)

Nope, no problem on my end, just wanted to make sure no one else had one either. This is a nice forum, with nice people that is a pleasant place to spend some time 'associating' with like- minded and like- interested people. Conflicts may occur but I wan to make sure that they do not happen by accident. So sounds like all is well..... now back to the real problem, that pesky bike. :-(

Brian

I am just as puzzled as anyone else out there as to the "How in the hell did this happen???" question.  I offered my theory as to how, as did you and others, but I think we may be chasing smoke at this point.  Not that I saw any smoke thank God.

I thank any and everyone who had been kind enough to comment in an attempt to help me steer through this current (pun intended) dilemma.

I was responding to Freddy and your posts.  Just trying to answer the question.  I hope there wasn't a snarky tone in the reply.  I'm not Butt-Hurt and I hope none of you guys are either.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: fartymarty on February 21, 2018, 10:13:53 am
OK, so we have surmised that we do not know what actually happened from an electrical theory point of view. We do know what the original trigger was that started it all.
 However I think we need to back up a bit.

(5) I could use a hug.

 :grouphug:

Sorry, it's the best we can do. Unfortunately we just are not very good at it. The one female we had on here, left because of our ineptitude in that area. Most if not all of us are still as baffled about that as we are about the electrical theory of what caused all of your filaments to blow. However we all appreciated the opportunity to armchair diagnose along with you and admire your determination to get through this. As long as you are only using your money and sharing the details with us, we will never abandon you like those other friends that just wanted you to "part it out".
I hope you fell hugged and appreciated now, like I said it's the best we can do.

I too may have gone down your path with some of the mods I wanted to try on my C14, fortunately Brian was able to show me the errors in my thinking before I got out the soldering iron and started cutting wires.

Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: B.D.F. on February 21, 2018, 10:29:20 am
And I can add that hugging Marty is a fundamentally good thing, though it seems to cause him some consternation.

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

A little inside joke: I do this shtick where I see a friend and 'hug' her, say at a COG function, but sometimes some other people seem to get caught up in said hug, much to their surprise.  :rotflmao:  It is like 'The Cat Joke', you just have to 'be there' to experience it in person. But Marty has and I am still amused by the look on his face at that moment. Kinda like this:  :yikes: and 'huh?' and 'am I going to face charges over this' all at once. :-)

Brian

OK, so we have surmised that we do not know what actually happened from an electrical theory point of view. We do know what the original trigger was that started it all.
 However I think we need to back up a bit.

 :grouphug:

Sorry, it's the best we can do. Unfortunately we just are not very good at it. The one female we had on here, left because of our ineptitude in that area. Most if not all of us are still as baffled about that as we are about the electrical theory of what caused all of your filaments to blow. However we all appreciated the opportunity to armchair diagnose along with you and admire your determination to get through this. As long as you are only using your money and sharing the details with us, we will never abandon you like those other friends that just wanted you to "part it out".
I hope you fell hugged and appreciated now, like I said it's the best we can do.

I too may have gone down your path with some of the mods I wanted to try on my C14, fortunately Brian was able to show me the errors in my thinking before I got out the soldering iron and started cutting wires.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: fartymarty on February 21, 2018, 11:50:55 am
 #metoo






The above was an attempt at humor, and in no way should it be construed as a belittlement of the #metoo movement or of those involved with it, nor is it to be construed as an accusation against B.D.F. of any impropriety. Perhaps as a warning to not get too close to him at any time, yes that!
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: B.D.F. on February 21, 2018, 12:57:36 pm
Yeah well I seem to remember you saying something along the line 'You have twenty minutes to stop doing that', which I took as a positive sign.

 ;D

To the onlookers (onreaders?) really, you just had to be there. Whatever you are imagining, that was not it.

OK, sorry about going OFFTOPIC:

Brian

#metoo






The above was an attempt at humor, and in no way should it be construed as a belittlement of the #metoo movement or of those involved with it, nor is it to be construed as an accusation against B.D.F. of any impropriety. Perhaps as a warning to not get too close to him at any time, yes that!
Title: Re: Stator Problem?
Post by: VirginiaJim on February 21, 2018, 01:21:07 pm
You would probably feel a LOT better if you could comfort yourself with a ShamWow. Have you heard of them?  ::) ???

 ;D

Brian


Have a whole box on a shelf in the basement.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: maxtog on February 21, 2018, 03:17:21 pm
I just think your bike must have been hit by a stealthy lightening bolt or ball lightening that couldn't find the ground, or a lightening-based ghost!
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Freddy on February 21, 2018, 09:07:43 pm
Correct me if you think I'm wrong folks, please, but apart from being struck by lightening or a welder, isn't the only way to get Tree's sort of destruction is to have unregulated stator voltage applied to the circuitry?   :yikes:
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on February 22, 2018, 06:32:41 pm
Please remember the part about troubleshooting where I mentioned the Black Cat.  At this point in the process the damn cat isn't even in the room any more.  I'm just going to recover the body and replace parts until it has a pulse again.

So, concerning the Stator...  Never mind.  I'm going with the Plasma Ball theory and move on.

Correct me if you think I'm wrong folks, please, but apart from being struck by lightening or a welder, isn't the only way to get Tree's sort of destruction is to have unregulated stator voltage applied to the circuitry?   :yikes:

Plasma Ball.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: gPink on February 22, 2018, 07:20:28 pm
http://m.laughinggif.com/view/fww3ltpopr/3.html (http://m.laughinggif.com/view/fww3ltpopr/3.html)
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on February 25, 2018, 02:53:03 am
The lights are replaced.  They all work.  The turn indicating lights work - they flash when the ignition key goes to ON.  Still waiting on the electronic Relay for the turn signal/hazard lights to fully function.

So here is the rest of the list:

1. The Speedo doesn't indicate while riding.  (The dial sweeps when the system initializes tho).
2. The trip A / trip B / and odometer do not increment. They are indicated on the LCD screen (ie 0.0 for trip, and current miles for the Odo total, they just don't increase).
3. Fuel consumption: Avg MPG, Range, Current MPG those just show dashed lines.

I'm thinking the Speed Sensor is bad (PN 21176-0037). All of the above indications require speed as an input to the Cluster/ECU, don't they?

4. The ABS light is constantly ON.
- The KDS report that the mechanic printed shows codes:
5043 - Front Wheel Speed Sensor Wiring Abnormal (Open, Shortage)
5052 - Power Supply Voltage Abnormal (Under Voltage)
5053 - Power Supply Voltage Abnormal (Over Voltage)

I initially suspected the ABS ECU as potentially fried.  Mechanically the pump is in good shape I think.  I can get by without ABS for now.  I need to find another ECU board to swap out.  I think it's just a board.

If I swap the ABS ECU board will I have to use KDS to register it?  I can't remember.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Freddy on February 25, 2018, 05:35:52 am
If I swap the ABS ECU board will I have to use KDS to register it?  I can't remember.

No.

Why not clear the codes as described and see if any show on the next ride?

 :chugbeer:  Good work Tree.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: B.D.F. on February 25, 2018, 06:10:02 am
On the Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS), yep, it sounds like it is bad. You can test it if you want to by powering it up (ignition on) and watching the voltage on the pink wire in the VSS harness (not the bike harness it connects to) with a VOM and very slowly rotating the rear tire; the voltage output should change from 0 to 5 volts (approximately numbers).

Otherwise, probably available used from scrap sources or Ebay and it is a good part to buy used because they do not wear or deteriorate.

Cannot help on the ABS part.

Brian

The lights are replaced.  They all work.  The turn indicating lights work - they flash when the ignition key goes to ON.  Still waiting on the electronic Relay for the turn signal/hazard lights to fully function.

So here is the rest of the list:

1. The Speedo doesn't indicate while riding.  (The dial sweeps when the system initializes tho).
2. The trip A / trip B / and odometer do not increment. They are indicated on the LCD screen (ie 0.0 for trip, and current miles for the Odo total, they just don't increase).
3. Fuel consumption: Avg MPG, Range, Current MPG those just show dashed lines.

I'm thinking the Speed Sensor is bad (PN 21176-0037). All of the above indications require speed as an input to the Cluster/ECU, don't they?

4. The ABS light is constantly ON.
- The KDS report that the mechanic printed shows codes:
5043 - Front Wheel Speed Sensor Wiring Abnormal (Open, Shortage)
5052 - Power Supply Voltage Abnormal (Under Voltage)
5053 - Power Supply Voltage Abnormal (Over Voltage)

I initially suspected the ABS ECU as potentially fried.  Mechanically the pump is in good shape I think.  I can get by without ABS for now.  I need to find another ECU board to swap out.  I think it's just a board.

If I swap the ABS ECU board will I have to use KDS to register it?  I can't remember.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: gPink on February 25, 2018, 06:25:57 am
Tree, you mention the ABS light staying on....have you ridden in a manner to see if the ABS will actually engage?
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: fartymarty on February 26, 2018, 11:18:12 am
If the speed sensor was damaged by the overvoltage (or black cat) or what ever, perhaps the same applies to the wheel abs sensors, I think I'd test and/or replace those before diving into the ABS ECU. Perhaps the fact that you are getting those codes (5043 etc.)at all indicates proper functioning of the ABS ECU communicating with the ECM?
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on February 26, 2018, 11:43:19 am
I am looking around for a salvaged speed sensor (PN 21176-0037 I think) vs $110 NIB. 


If the speed sensor was damaged by the overvoltage (or black cat) or what ever, perhaps the same applies to the wheel abs sensors, I think I'd test and/or replace those before diving into the ABS ECU. Perhaps the fact that you are getting those codes (5043 etc.)at all indicates proper functioning of the ABS ECU communicating with the ECM?

Plasma Ball...  One of the ABS codes relates to the front wheel sensor so that will be easy enough to check.  Maybe as easy as swapping front/rear.  I dunno, I haven't looked into that part yet.  I made some assumptions early-on in this process that led me in the wrong direction so I'm gonna be less emotional about it as I proceed.  I didn't remove the fuel tank as I said I would because I wanted to think about it a little more. Your observation about the ABS ECU being capable of communicating a trouble code is valid and makes me think about a Monty Python line...  "I'm not dead!" and "I'm feeling better..."  Per gPink's comment and what you have suggested I feel an actual test of the ABS function is a good idea and can provide more data.

Tree, you mention the ABS light staying on....have you ridden in a manner to see if the ABS will actually engage?

I haven't consciously attempted to engage the ABS yet but I will.  I don't have a speed indication right now so it's kinda freaking me out.  That will be my next test tho.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on February 26, 2018, 02:27:08 pm
I am looking around for a salvaged speed sensor (PN 21176-0037 I think) vs $110 NIB. 


Plasma Ball...  One of the ABS codes relates to the front wheel sensor so that will be easy enough to check.  Maybe as easy as swapping front/rear.  I dunno, I haven't looked into that part yet.  I made some assumptions early-on in this process that led me in the wrong direction so I'm gonna be less emotional about it as I proceed.  I didn't remove the fuel tank as I said I would because I wanted to think about it a little more. Your observation about the ABS ECU being capable of communicating a trouble code is valid and makes me think about a Monty Python line...  "I'm not dead!" and "I'm feeling better..."  Per gPink's comment and what you have suggested I feel an actual test of the ABS function is a good idea and can provide more data.

I haven't consciously attempted to engage the ABS yet but I will.  I don't have a speed indication right now so it's kinda freaking me out.  That will be my next test tho.



 STOP
 before spending more money in kneejerk reaction and such, go read this...
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23143.msg289142#msg289142 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23143.msg289142#msg289142)

you should not be having such issues, and all of those components were directly controlled thru the original KP ECU's interface...

re install it, after reading my explanation in the link... it should make sense, especially if you have a FSM and read exactly how the KP and DFI interfaces link... and which really are re-programmable, and need to be linked... vs whatever the tech dude attempted (partially) to link.

good luck, please try this... it won't damage anything....and won't cost anything but a few minutes of time, to get your bike back to normal, possibly, if the folks that repaired your KP ECU didn't hose it up in some other fashion.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on February 26, 2018, 02:41:17 pm
also to add,
the ABS "ECU" is actually a part of the valve assembly, tucked inside the battery box.. it's integral with the valve body.
error codes can be invoked by onboard diagnostics, go to section 12 in the FSM, and starting around page 12-40 on, read the procedure, and the codes, and how to invoke them safely without erasing them.. doesn't require removing the fuel tank...

Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on February 26, 2018, 07:02:08 pm
I read it and replied.  Let me know what you think.


 STOP
 before spending more money in kneejerk reaction and such, go read this...
[url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23143.msg289142#msg289142[/url] ([url]http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=23143.msg289142#msg289142[/url])

you should not be having such issues, and all of those components were directly controlled thru the original KP ECU's interface...

re install it, after reading my explanation in the link... it should make sense, especially if you have a FSM and read exactly how the KP and DFI interfaces link... and which really are re-programmable, and need to be linked... vs whatever the tech dude attempted (partially) to link.

good luck, please try this... it won't damage anything....and won't cost anything but a few minutes of time, to get your bike back to normal, possibly, if the folks that repaired your KP ECU didn't hose it up in some other fashion.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on February 27, 2018, 02:24:48 pm
sorry
i missed some of the stuff you did...
got it now.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on February 28, 2018, 12:21:26 pm
Installed the new electronic turn signal relay yesterday.  The turn signal and hazard flash function has been restored - LED lights rock!  Load Resistors?  We don't need no stinking Load Resistors!

And, I just got word that the speed sensor just showed up at the house this morning.  I'll replace that after work tonight.  Fingers and eyes crossed!

That just leaves those pesky ABS error codes...  I performed a half-hearted effort at attempting to get the ABS to kick in last night.  I may have been too timid with the break pressure, I didn't notice the ABS pulsing.  I didn't skid either so I cannot conclude if it worked or not.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: lather on February 28, 2018, 12:34:32 pm
I tried several times today to "test" my abs today without success. I think I have been practising threshold braking for so long I can't undo the habit. Once I felt some juddering but I  think it was just the tire squirming. First time for abs so don't know what to expect.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on February 28, 2018, 12:38:45 pm
I tried several times today to "test" my abs today without success. I think I have been practising threshold braking for so long I can't undo the habit. Once I felt some juddering but I  think it was just the tire squirming. First time for abs so don't know what to expect.

Yep.  I'm pretty sure I felt something "pucker" when I was trying to place the bike into a skid, on purpose.  I'm certain it wasn't anything associated with the machine either.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: lather on February 28, 2018, 01:09:06 pm
 :o
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: gPink on February 28, 2018, 01:18:49 pm
No gravel road around?
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: maxtog on February 28, 2018, 04:13:47 pm
I tried several times today to "test" my abs today without success. I think I have been practising threshold braking for so long I can't undo the habit. Once I felt some juddering but I  think it was just the tire squirming. First time for abs so don't know what to expect.

I don't think I have ever activated the ABS on the Concours... which seems pretty amazing to me.  I have certainly had to break pretty hard before, but never "panic" braking.  I am not sure if the light will appear when it kicks in or just the pulsing or buzzing (like in my car).

I have tripped the traction control several times- that blinks the light- super noticeable.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: B.D.F. on February 28, 2018, 04:53:29 pm
Well, one day I got the front tire to bark under hard braking. It was a cold day, I was 2-up and missed a turn and reacted pretty strongly, which turned out to be a bit too much for the temperature. Fortunately, it was just a 'bark', I released the brake and all was well other than the whole event activating my skivvies marking ABS system but that mostly washed out.... My wife did not even notice anything unusual.... well, at least not on during the ride.

Brian

I don't think I have ever activated the ABS on the Concours... which seems pretty amazing to me.  I have certainly had to break pretty hard before, but never "panic" braking.  I am not sure if the light will appear when it kicks in or just the pulsing or buzzing (like in my car).

I have tripped the traction control several times- that blinks the light- super noticeable.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: kzz1king on February 28, 2018, 05:19:07 pm
No gravel road around?
That will do it
 I use the rear brake to test. Under what speed does the ABS not kick in?
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Freddy on February 28, 2018, 05:28:29 pm
snip>
That just leaves those pesky ABS error codes...  I performed a half-hearted effort at attempting to get the ABS to kick in last night.  I may have been too timid with the break pressure, I didn't notice the ABS pulsing.  I didn't skid either so I cannot conclude if it worked or not.

Have you cleared the stored fault codes yet so you can start afresh?  Seems not?  If the ABS light is on, the system is not going to function correctly until the cause is identified and rectified.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: lather on February 28, 2018, 05:56:00 pm
Light is on and codes are 42 and 52
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on February 28, 2018, 06:42:49 pm
I replaced the speed sensor - no joy.  I am currently scratching my head and muttering aloud about that.  I was convinced that the sensor was the only component in the circuit that could cause those indications (no Speedo, Trip counters not counting, Odometer not counting).  The red light on the cluster isn't lit and there are no error codes.  I am wondering why not since there is an issue with the Speedo circuit.

I moved over to checking the ABS issue after the failed attempt to get the Speedo to work.  I rechecked the ABS fault code(s) and only got 55 (ECU Trouble - ECU operation abnormal).  And it doesn't erase.  The KDS print out from the mechanic had 43, 52, 53, and 55.  The service manual basically says to replace the ABS Hydraulic Unit (page 12-55).

No gravel road around?

When I first read that I kinda thought it was a joke... but it makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: gPink on March 01, 2018, 03:58:53 am
Easiest place to check the abs without falling down.  :)
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on March 24, 2018, 05:45:43 pm
I bumped this posting to get some input on KDS.  I have a KDS ver. 3 "system" now and I am currently confronted with the issue with the driver.  I'm running KDS3 on a laptop with Windows 10 Home edition.  If there is a driver on the installation CD I can't see it and neither can my laptop.  My searches on the interweb haven't helped - I admit that I am challenged and currently frustrated.  Anyone know where I can download a driver?
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: gPink on March 24, 2018, 06:38:17 pm
I think there was some discussion about this on the other forum I can't look for the thread as I'm not on there anymore.

Here you go...google search brought this up.... http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/kds-confirmed-running-on-windows-7-or-windows-10/ (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/kds-confirmed-running-on-windows-7-or-windows-10/)
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: mikeyw64 on March 24, 2018, 07:24:19 pm
according to section 2 of  this instruction manual (http://manualzz.com/doc/6301112/kawasaki-diagnostic-software-version-3-kds-v.3-instructio...) the driver files (KDSAdapter.inf and KDSAdapter.sys ) should be on the CD

Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on March 24, 2018, 10:14:23 pm
according to section 2 of  this instruction manual ([url]http://manualzz.com/doc/6301112/kawasaki-diagnostic-software-version-3-kds-v.3-instructio...[/url]) the driver files (KDSAdapter.inf and KDSAdapter.sys ) should be on the CD


I agree.  But my computer doesn't want to cooperate.  There aren't many files on the CD.  I don't see anything resembling a driver.

I think there was some discussion about this on the other forum I can't look for the thread as I'm not on there anymore.

Here you go...google search brought this up.... [url]http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/kds-confirmed-running-on-windows-7-or-windows-10/[/url] ([url]http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/kds-confirmed-running-on-windows-7-or-windows-10/[/url])


I think I looked at that post today.  Nothing I've seen points me to a source for a driver.

It's obvious that I'm either doing something wrong or missed a step somewhere.  The installation process for the driver is pretty clear and so simple even I could do it.  Currently getting my butt kicked however.

Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: mikeyw64 on March 25, 2018, 01:58:16 am
I agree.  But my computer doesn't want to cooperate.  There aren't many files on the CD.  I don't see anything resembling a driver.

I think I looked at that post today.  Nothing I've seen points me to a source for a driver.

It's obvious that I'm either doing something wrong or missed a step somewhere.  The installation process for the driver is pretty clear and so simple even I could do it.  Currently getting my butt kicked however.

Can you pot up a picture of the directory structure of the CD like the one in the instructions?

your on W10 so you can use "Snipping Tool" (also in w7 & w8) to capture it and save the image as a file (click on windows search and type it in)

Even better open up a dos prompt (Windows + R or search (without quotes) , "cmd") and type in (without the quotes)

"tree d: > cdlist.txt" , hit enter

change "d:" to whatever letter is assigned to your CD drive

Open the file (still in DOS you can type in "notepad cdlist.txt") and copy'n'paste the output

 
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on March 25, 2018, 11:11:38 am
This
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: mikeyw64 on March 25, 2018, 12:22:59 pm
This

And bingo , there are the driver files


KDSAdapter.inf and KDSAdapter.sys

Just need to install manually


https://www.google.co.uk/search?safe=off&ei=n-i3WpiKH8iBUbvFksAP&q=install+inf+file+windows+10&oq=how+t+install+an+inf+file (https://www.google.co.uk/search?safe=off&ei=n-i3WpiKH8iBUbvFksAP&q=install+inf+file+windows+10&oq=how+t+install+an+inf+file)
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on March 25, 2018, 12:35:04 pm
And bingo , there are the driver files
KDSAdapter.inf and KDSAdapter.sys
Just need to install manually
https://www.google.co.uk/search?safe=off&ei=n-i3WpiKH8iBUbvFksAP&q=install+inf+file+windows+10&oq=how+t+install+an+inf+file (https://www.google.co.uk/search?safe=off&ei=n-i3WpiKH8iBUbvFksAP&q=install+inf+file+windows+10&oq=how+t+install+an+inf+file)

I'll be right back...
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on March 25, 2018, 02:19:05 pm
The current challenge is my OS I think.  I walked thru the device manager process and attempted to point it to the driver but the result was nil.  The OS wants an x64 based .inf driver or some such nonsense.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: gPink on March 25, 2018, 02:27:28 pm
try this but do your own research on the site.... http://semantic.gs/kawasaki_diagnostic_system_usb_adapter64_driver_download (http://semantic.gs/kawasaki_diagnostic_system_usb_adapter64_driver_download)
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on April 07, 2018, 10:03:51 pm
Progress!

Kind of.

I opted to get another tool in the form of a used laptop with Windows XP.  I was then able to get this OS to install the driver for the KDS adapter.  Yay!  Then I got this silly error message.  What is going on here?  Anyone?
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: maxtog on April 07, 2018, 10:36:58 pm
It looks like you need an update to the software.  The ECU is probably newer than the version of KDS or its database understands.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on April 07, 2018, 11:21:57 pm
It looks like you need an update to the software.  The ECU is probably newer than the version of KDS or its database understands.

Yep.  Looks that way.  The KIPASS ECU that's installed is new.  I had intended to install my recently repaired one and test it...  I am assuming that it is the original.  Since the bike is a 2008 I am 99.997% certain that it is in the "database".

However, if I installed the original and performed a successful registration then I will have a new ECU that isn't in the database.  I will be unable to install it back into the bike.  What to do?

Get my hands on a version of KDS that has an up-to-date database.  That's what.

Suggestions?

Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: gPink on April 08, 2018, 06:10:45 am
What kds software version are you running?
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: maxtog on April 08, 2018, 08:13:41 am
Get my hands on a version of KDS that has an up-to-date database.  That's what.  Suggestions?

Most legally obtained software being used within the license conditions will have some type of update option.  I don't know much about KDS, though.  It might require a separate support contract or update fee or something?
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on April 08, 2018, 10:45:46 am
What kds software version are you running?

Version 3.0.3.0 and 3.0.3(EN) database.  My local Stealer did the registration of my new ECU a couple of months ago...  His "version" must have a database that includes a N.I.B. unit (Said Captain Obvious). If I can find a version that is as current or newer than his I should be golden.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on April 12, 2018, 02:35:37 pm
I found Ver. 3.0.9 on Ebay.  I'll give it a shot.

If it does work out I will be reinstalling the repaired KIPASS ECU and testing it.  Then run it in the bike for a while.  If it checks out I will either have a spare or offer it for sale.

That will leave the ABS issue as the last thing to recover.  It can wait.

I guess I can officially (?) say that I have recovered the bike now.  I have nothing else for this particular post so it will fade away into the place where shame and misery go to die.  Good riddance.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: gPink on April 12, 2018, 02:52:34 pm
 :salute:
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: VirginiaJim on April 12, 2018, 06:39:03 pm
You know, I could make it a sticky....
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on April 12, 2018, 06:45:24 pm
You know, I could make it a sticky....

Dang Jim!  Not even remotely funny.  OK, maybe a little.  I appreciate this forum as I'm sure that the Forum members appreciate me sharing my misadventures.  I'm sure that I will have more content in the future.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: fartymarty on April 13, 2018, 08:53:58 am
....... so it will fade away into the place where shame and misery go to die. 


HA! ..sorry Tree, yes we are your internet friends, but we aren't that kind of friends. We don't let pain and misery fade away, especially when we can quote past quotes. So you be careful now around those C14 electrons.

Now about your new avatar, or what I think it should be taking into account your screen name and this ordeal you've been through.
(http://globalsevereweather.earthnetworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/lightning-tree-600x600.jpg) (http://globalsevereweather.earthnetworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/lightning-tree-600x600.jpg)
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Rubber_Snake on April 13, 2018, 09:01:17 am
HA! ..sorry Tree, yes we are your internet friends, but we aren't that kind of friends. We don't let pain and misery fade away, especially when we can quote past quotes. So you be careful now around those C14 electrons.

Now about your new avatar, or what I think it should be taking into account your screen name and this ordeal you've been through.
([url]http://globalsevereweather.earthnetworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/lightning-tree-600x600.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://globalsevereweather.earthnetworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/lightning-tree-600x600.jpg[/url])


 :hail: :goodpost: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on April 13, 2018, 02:05:15 pm
HA! ..sorry Tree, yes we are your internet friends, but we aren't that kind of friends. We don't let pain and misery fade away, especially when we can quote past quotes. So you be careful now around those C14 electrons.

Now about your new avatar, or what I think it should be taking into account your screen name and this ordeal you've been through.
([url]http://globalsevereweather.earthnetworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/lightning-tree-600x600.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://globalsevereweather.earthnetworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/lightning-tree-600x600.jpg[/url])


Um.  Can I use that for my avatar?  It actually fits nicely.  You know...  Considering.

Kind of like how a person obtains a nickname.  We don't exactly get to pick when our friends bestow one upon us.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on April 13, 2018, 02:09:52 pm
I feel it is better to ask forgiveness vs. getting permission so I used the pic for my avatar.  Now that's funny right there.   :chugbeer:
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: fartymarty on April 13, 2018, 02:17:18 pm
Um.  Can I use that for my avatar?

I feel it is better to ask forgiveness vs. getting permission so I used the pic for my avatar.  Now that's funny right there.   :chugbeer:

It's fine by me, I just Googled it (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1&biw=1920&bih=938&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=nQ_RWpmzIMyOsQWz15_4AQ&q=tree+struck+by+lightning&oq=tree+struck+by+lightning&gs_l=psy-ab.12...27286.33080.0.34898.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.kveRDMMGWQo) and picked one I liked.

this one got second place: (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Rdi6YML4-ug/hqdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: Tree on April 13, 2018, 02:27:29 pm
If we can't have fun we wight as well be dead.  I'm going to be riding to work this afternoon with a working Speedo... First time since late last November.  Tragically funny but still funny.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: lather on April 13, 2018, 07:09:01 pm
Go Tree!
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)
Post by: Tree on April 24, 2018, 05:32:06 am
I have a used ABS pump.  Time to break out the Bone Saw...   :yikes:

By the way, between posts in the Wanted section, other scattered postings, and this one I have completely lost track of where and when I posted any new status reports.  And I tend to forget stuff and repeat my self repeat myself. [sigh].

Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)
Post by: Tree on April 25, 2018, 10:03:37 am
ABS pump.  Separated the electrical from the mechanical.  Thought someone might like to see some pics.

Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)
Post by: B.D.F. on April 25, 2018, 12:58:41 pm
thanks for post the photos. Piston pumps, with balance rings in them- just what I would have used. :-)

Brian

ABS pump.  Separated the electrical from the mechanical.  Thought someone might like to see some pics.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: B.D.F. on April 25, 2018, 01:07:49 pm
My very philosophy: if I cannot have three yucks a day, and preferably one big one, I ain't gettin' out of bed. Everything is funny if one just warps the context a little bit and does not deliver it or take it as a personal or specific reference (cancer can be funny, having cancer is not funny; finding amusement in some of the facets of having cancer can even be funny, even to the patient in some circumstances). One of the things we are really losing in the US, and maybe the world, is our collective sense of humor and that is truly unfortunate IMO. I find we all get some doses of pain, and everyone dies but not everyone gets sufficient dosages of humor or fun IMO.

Good on you for laughing at yourself after making a mistake. You cannot change the fact that the mistake was made, and you cannot change the damage you have to repair no matter what your attitude but you do (we all do) have the choice of taking a case of 'stepping in it' with a couple of chuckles. Later on, I will take a photo of my most recent 'stepped in it' and post it to this thread to prove that pain and suffering can be mixed with fun and amusement. Though the anesthesiologist was a hard- sell; took me four of my medium-  to- good jokes to make him chuckle. But he did enjoy the ad lib about using LOTS of electrolyte on the paddles so they did not leave burn marks on my chest..... you know, in the event.....   :yikes: :rotflmao:

Brian

If we can't have fun we wight as well be dead.  I'm going to be riding to work this afternoon with a working Speedo... First time since late last November.  Tragically funny but still funny.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)
Post by: Freddy on April 25, 2018, 07:56:39 pm
ABS pump.  Separated the electrical from the mechanical.  Thought someone might like to see some pics.

Thanks Tree.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery and electrical meltdown
Post by: B.D.F. on April 26, 2018, 02:23:28 pm
Ah yes, mixing tragedy (well, minor tragedy) and comedy means telling jokes to the surgical staff until one passes out.

And it runs in the family: my youngest son sent me this Tee shirt when he found out about the broken wrist:

(https://i.imgur.com/BjHKlWy.jpg)

Taken on the very stairs that helped gravity grab that winning point.

 :rotflmao:

And tomorrow, I meet Julie so she can show me how to use the 'bone stimulator' as well as providing me with one. How cool is that? 20 minutes, one time a day their asses- I'm gonna' replace the batteries with mains power and use that thing until I pass out! And with a little luck, the bones will not knit properly (somewhat probable- the bone shattered and the surgeon had to use bone grafts to fill in the void) so I will need  yet more surgery and maybe, just maybe, get a second crack at that 'bone stimulator' again this year. Yea me!

:-)

Brian

If we can't have fun we wight as well be dead.  I'm going to be riding to work this afternoon with a working Speedo... First time since late last November.  Tragically funny but still funny.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)
Post by: gPink on April 26, 2018, 02:36:49 pm
Good luck with the stimulator. They get mixed reviews. It didn't help my wife's shattered elbow but seemed to work on the hairline fracture in her foot that she tried it on since she had it.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)
Post by: B.D.F. on April 26, 2018, 04:03:09 pm
OFFTOPIC: Yeah, I too have done just a bit of research and they seem mildly effective at best. What is worse is that the small number of positive data collections all seem to have been done by a company that makes them, which make the data highly suspect. They are expensive too, this one will be $2,400 for a month. Now in my own case, as I have hit my max. 'out of pocket expense' for my plan for the year, the stimulator would be covered by Blue Cross. And yet after my research I refused it because it seemed a very poor value in relation to the cost, no matter WHO is paying for it; I am not interested in wasting anyone else's money anyway and just taking something because it is of no cost TO ME is irresponsible. But after my last appointment with the surgeon, he said that he does NOT recommend a bone stimulator for perhaps 98% of these types of fractures but he did so in my case because it was a collective break, it required bone grafting, and will be difficult to heal and he simply felt that he wanted to do everything possible, even with low success likelihood, to cause this fracture (fractures) to heal. If they do not, he will have to go back in and surgically support the bone (Easy Boys!) and I have to say, looking at the X- rays, that does not look like a cheerful proposition; if he straps the outside, it will leave material protruding from my hand / wrist and possible cause loss of tactile feedback, blood flow and probably arthritis. So I agreed to use the bone stimulator in the hope that it will be sufficient that more surgery will not be needed.

BTW: the bone stimulator supplier kept trying to tell me it would not cost me anything and I had a really hard time explaining that I understood that but choose not to waste money simply because it was not MY money I was wasting. She never heard that before and was quiet for a few moments.  ::)

Thanks for the well- wishes Gary!

Brian

Good luck with the stimulator. They get mixed reviews. It didn't help my wife's shattered elbow but seemed to work on the hairline fracture in her foot that she tried it on since she had it.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)
Post by: Tree on April 26, 2018, 09:13:10 pm
Yep.  That Bone Saw crack I made a little while ago doesn't seems creepy at all now.  ;)

And I just said crack - twice. :)
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)
Post by: fartymarty on April 27, 2018, 11:51:21 am
And I just said crack - twice. :)
Hmmm...do you think the bone stimulator goes there?  ???
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)
Post by: Tree on April 27, 2018, 04:48:12 pm
Hmmm...do you think the bone stimulator goes there?  ???

Easy Boys!  :o
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)
Post by: gPink on April 27, 2018, 05:44:45 pm
I wonder how Mrs. B.D.F. is handling the new stimulator?
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)
Post by: fartymarty on April 28, 2018, 10:07:18 am
I wonder how Mrs. B.D.F. is handling the new stimulator?

Well after all the cracks....
Hopefully with vinyl/nitrile gloves, if she is handling it at all. I know that she uses leather gloves when handling Brian's wood. (http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/Basealmostcomplete.jpg~original)
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)
Post by: B.D.F. on April 29, 2018, 01:14:02 pm
Actually, cloth gloves with rubber dots for grip- I guess the wood can be.... (wait for it)...... slippery sometimes.

She also knocked herself down once with my wood; we were loading the trailer and it was getting pretty tall. She was throwing splits 'onto' the trailer WHEN SUDDENLY she threw a split (she threw my wood) but not high enough and it bounced off the pile in the trailer, slapped her right in the face and she went down like a sack of potatoes. Never lost consciousness but ended up with a golf ball sized lump and a jet black eye for a week and a half.

Which is of course the root of all the wisdom about being careful with your wood, be careful where you put your wood, etc. because placing wood poorly can have consequences.....

Brian

Well after all the cracks....
Hopefully with vinyl/nitrile gloves, if she is handling it at all. I know that she uses leather gloves when handling Brian's wood. ([url]http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/Basealmostcomplete.jpg~original[/url])
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)
Post by: Tree on May 23, 2018, 08:10:47 am
One more thing.  Maybe two.  But one for sure.

I replaced the electrical box on the ABS pump with a used one, bled and tested the brakes - ABS works fine now and that irritating ABS light is no longer constantly lit.

Big thanks to SISF for the help with the ABS pump.

The other thing isn't really a thing but still irritates me...  The fuel level indication is still wonky and I don't get the low fuel warning.  Still pondering if it is worth the expense to replace the float assembly.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)
Post by: fartymarty on May 23, 2018, 10:28:54 am
The other thing isn't really a thing but still irritates me...  The fuel level indication is still wonky and I don't get the low fuel warning.  Still pondering if it is worth the expense to replace the float assembly.


I was sitting here thinking about recommending that you run the tank almost out of fuel and then inserting one of those cheap cameras (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06WRNGYXY/ref=dp_cerb_1) that attach to a cell phone....and then I thought ...just what Tree needs.. a spark from a cell phone camera in a gas tank of fumes.... :banghead: :doh: ..he hasn't yet had enough problems. ::)

Still, you could perhaps run it low and drain it and remove the fuel pump and check out the little silver thingy (thermosistor) to see if it's still electrically connected and not internally open (electrically speaking open, should be some measurable ohms there).
(http://a4.pbase.com/g4/41/9841/3/145903807.DoNWbAf1.jpg) (http://a4.pbase.com/o6/41/9841/1/145903807.5ttmxP2h.FuelPump024a.JPG)

The float mechanism:
 (http://a4.pbase.com/g4/41/9841/3/145903801.APZAhjOe.jpg) (http://a4.pbase.com/o6/41/9841/1/145903801.CxrmlDAX.FuelPump015a.JPG)

other tank photos courtesy of Fred Harmon: http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/c14fuelpump (http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/c14fuelpump)
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)
Post by: Tree on May 23, 2018, 10:47:02 am
I had the opportunity to fiddle with the tank level mechanism when I had the tank out for the ABS pump.  I briefly thought about it but I ran out of time and didn't want to open that can-o-worms.  Like I mentioned, it might not be a thing at all - just irritating.

The tank level indication does vary, it just doesn't vary as much as it should to get the low level warning or turn off the last 2 LCD sections.  It's like the resistance of the potentiometer shifted and reads lower than before the "event".
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)
Post by: B.D.F. on May 23, 2018, 02:37:46 pm
Did you check for a low fuel warning eliminator? Sounds exactly how a C-14 acts when one of those is installed, other than the fuel gauge will go down to one bar, but never to [no] bars. The low fuel warning is really pretty close to binary, and it is either there and working or it is not; if not, you will get warnings and a flashing fuel level on the main LCD. No a warning page but rather the fuel indicator tree will  light on the top and bottom alternating in one- second intervals. Not something anyone could miss or 'live with'. So if the display is otherwise functional and working properly, I suspect the bike is wearing a low fuel warning indicator, and there is no situation I can think of where that function can fail without the rider noticing something is wrong immediately other than using a L.F.W.E.

As for the fuel level bars, they are entirely separate from  the low fuel warning system and so if that will not go below two bars, something is wrong, most likely with the sender. The service manual has the test parameters for the fuel gauge and it is quite easy to check, although you do have to have the fuel level sensor out to do that.

Brian


<snip>

The other thing isn't really a thing but still irritates me...  The fuel level indication is still wonky and I don't get the low fuel warning.  Still pondering if it is worth the expense to replace the float assembly.
Title: Re: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)
Post by: Tree on May 23, 2018, 08:15:12 pm
I hear what you're saying but I didn't mod the bike to eliminate the warning, L.F.W.E. or otherwise.  Before the event I did get the low fuel warning with the LCD screen alternating between "Low Fuel" and the gas tank icon, the Red light indicated too.  Since the event I have not received the warning with an empty tank, and that has been with 2 instrument clusters (original and a new/used one).  I have a good idea what my range is on a tank of fuel so I'm not fretting about getting stuck out in the boonies.

I don't understand the circuitry so I appreciate the clarification.  Again, not a horrible problem, just irritates the crap out of me sometimes.

Did you check for a low fuel warning eliminator? Sounds exactly how a C-14 acts when one of those is installed, other than the fuel gauge will go down to one bar, but never to [no] bars. The low fuel warning is really pretty close to binary, and it is either there and working or it is not; if not, you will get warnings and a flashing fuel level on the main LCD. No a warning page but rather the fuel indicator tree will  light on the top and bottom alternating in one- second intervals. Not something anyone could miss or 'live with'. So if the display is otherwise functional and working properly, I suspect the bike is wearing a low fuel warning indicator, and there is no situation I can think of where that function can fail without the rider noticing something is wrong immediately other than using a L.F.W.E.

As for the fuel level bars, they are entirely separate from  the low fuel warning system and so if that will not go below two bars, something is wrong, most likely with the sender. The service manual has the test parameters for the fuel gauge and it is quite easy to check, although you do have to have the fuel level sensor out to do that.

Brian